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Opinion Analysis Was Jak II the biggest example of "Corporate edge"?

Jubenhimer

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Factor 5 worked on a sequel for Kid Icarus at one point. Just like other games mentioned in this thread they wanted to take it in a new darker direction, despite Nintendo trying to nudge them in the right direction they kept at it until they finally got canceled.


LOL I remember that! Thank God we got Uprising instead.
 

sainraja

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Uncharted isn't Gears, but when gears released ND changed the whole gameplay in the last 6 months of development (I remember an interview by Lucas Pope about that)

Gun play wasn't exclusive to Gears before even Gears came out. The only thing that I know took off in a big way after Gears, was cover-based shooting and if that is what naughtydog added after Gears released, then I don't think that should be considered a knock or evidence against naughtydog's creativity. They also implemented it differently in a way that fits Uncharted. Regardless, my point was there are many games that share something with another game.

So calling something simply a clone of something else seems silly to me.
 
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Zekra Dezivad

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Gun play wasn't exclusive to Gears before even Gears came out. The only thing that I know took off in a big way after Gears, was cover-based shooting and if that is what naughtydog added after Gears released, then I don't think that should be considered a knock or evidence against naughtydog's creativity. They also implemented it differently in a way that fits Uncharted. Regardless, my point was there are many games that share something with another game.

So calling something simply a clone of something else seems silly to me.
I'm not saying that uncharted is a clone, I'm just saying that they first changed the original idea (more fantasy, tolkienesque game) bc sony wanted to attack the more realistic/mature market. They also changed the design to a cover based shooter bc gears was big on the market and they wanted a piece of that audience.
I think that this is a very big evidence that market had an extremely big influence of the whole game direction.
It's ok to share or getting inspired from other games, Gears was heavily influenced by both Resident Evil 4 and the often forgotten Kill.Switch.
However take the artistic route is very hard in a competitive market like videogames. I know that, and also that ND are a big studio, with big budgets and a lot of workers. But that don't make ND less market focused developer :)
 

Sejan

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I hated the edgy phase of gaming that felt completely aimed at 12 year old boys with gratuitous violence and needless sexuality, but I almost miss it compared to game developers and publishers that are overly focused on making political statements.

I wish more developers would just focus on making fun experiences.
 
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Jax from the first game didnt really have any charm other than he was silent. Eco was nothing new to the series and he was experimented on with it in 2. I just though he was pissed and irritated in the second game. Nothing felt edgy to me really. Was it because they said damn and hell? For me 2>3>1

I also agree that the second game was the best. We are the sad minority. 3 felt like it was dumbed down a lot to me--adding the dune buggy levels and they made driving the hover units much slower and safer. I liked the more realistic and dangerous feel of the second game, and the difficulty of 2 made me feel like I accomplished much more than 3 which was just overall nearly as easy as the first one.
 

sainraja

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I'm not saying that uncharted is a clone, I'm just saying that they first changed the original idea (more fantasy, tolkienesque game) bc sony wanted to attack the more realistic/mature market. They also changed the design to a cover based shooter bc gears was big on the market and they wanted a piece of that audience.
I think that this is a very big evidence that market had an extremely big influence of the whole game direction.
It's ok to share or getting inspired from other games, Gears was heavily influenced by both Resident Evil 4 and the often forgotten Kill.Switch.
However take the artistic route is very hard in a competitive market like videogames. I know that, and also that ND are a big studio, with big budgets and a lot of workers. But that don't make ND less market focused developer :)

I remember in one of the interviews Amy Hennig mentioned they were exploring more hand to hand combat, similar to what they introduced in Uncharted 3 and the demo video before the game was even called Uncharted showed platforming and some gun play which to me didn't look very tolienesque fantasy like. Perhaps I've missed some background on that.
 
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Onironauta

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Jak 2/3's tonal shift coming from The Precursor Legacy was big, but was very good. All of the good elements of the first were practically expanded on. The only thing I really missed from the original was the blue eco/jump pads.

On a side note, I hate GTA actually, its too generic IMO. To the comparisons between Jak 2/3 and GTA, the difference is that Jak 2/3 had personality.

On another side note, where is Jak 4 at man.. its been TOO LONG Naughty Dog. We dont need hyper realistic J&D, stick with the cartoony graphics and just buff it up to the Jak 3 commercials CGI fidelity.
I think Insomniac would be better suited for a new Jak than today's Naughty Dog. ND is too deep into the Hollywood-wannabe hole.
 

Royal-Slime

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According to Naughty Dog, the reason for the bizarre shift in tone was because gamers were getting older and wanted more mature and violent games.
Another example of Naughty Dog's incompetence as a creator. "Hey, Miyamoto-san, the Mario audience have grown, let's give Mario all the guns and do car chasing, make him really mature and old, and tired of life, maybe with a middle-age crisis. Let's have an emotional scene with him looking into the mirror, crying and shaving his mustashe! He's not the same MAN anymore! THAT'd be cool, right?!"
 
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Yoboman

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As a kid turning teen at the time (12 when the first Jak came out and 14 when Jak 2 came out) I was right in the target demographic and I thought it was bad ass at the time. I'd just recently graduated to the likes of GTA so anything "mature" was amazing

Jak but with an open world and GTA elements and guns and a hoverboard? It honestly was one of my most hyped games ever

Of course it really wasn't executed that well but to my teenage brain it was awesome
 

Yoboman

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Also I'd add that at the time, anything "kiddy" was toxic territory

Most gamers were teens to young adults growing up through SNES and PS1 and were gravitating to things with a mature edge. A wave of more mature titles started grabbing all the limelight

Meanwhile Gamecube was primarily aimed at kids and sold awful. Wind Waker had a massive backlash for being "kiddy". Go watch the Twilight Princess reveal to see how much importance gamers put on "maturity" at the time


Thankfully that all didn't last long
 
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Shakka43

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Giving Jak a voice was the right decision and I liked everything story wise from the game, my problem with Jak 2 was the city being way too narrow for vehicles and it was a total nightmare to travel through it. Also the game was kind of hard and we had to deal with an atrocious check point system that was more rage inducing than anything.

Jak 3 was an excellent game all around though.
 

Jubenhimer

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Giving Jak a voice was the right decision and I liked everything story wise from the game, my problem with Jak 2 was the city being way too narrow for vehicles and it was a total nightmare to travel through it. Also the game was kind of hard and we had to deal with an atrocious check point system that was more rage inducing than anything.

Jak 3 was an excellent game all around though.
Having recently played Jak II. I can agree with this. Haven City just felt way too claustrophobic. It was often hard to navigate because of all the twists, turns, and corners you had to take. The best parts of Jak II are actually when you're not in Haven City. Personally, I would've preferred the approach take with the original game, where it was just one interconnected world split into three sections, instead of having a city hub world.
 
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Shkyboy924

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Jak II was a very awkward sequel. Don't me get me wrong, I like all of the Jak and Daxter's but in my personal opinion, The Precursor Legacy was the superior game out of all of them. Probably a lot of nostalgia from it being one of my first launch PS2 games but I enjoyed it way more than its sequels. They completely ruined the humour and tone going forward.

jak and daxter dance GIF by PlayStationDE
 
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bender

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It felt like a reaction to GTA and games becoming more "adult" and was all the worse for it.
 
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Having recently played Jak II. I can agree with this. Haven City just felt way too claustrophobic. It was often hard to navigate because of all the twists, turns, and corners you had to take. The best parts of Jak II are actually when you're not in Haven City. Personally, I would've preferred the approach take with the original game, where it was just one interconnected world split into three sections, instead of having a city hub world.

Jak 2's hub style world was an evolution of the original's sectioned interconnected world. Because the world was so much bigger and detailed some things had to be changed to get it to work. For example, the reason for all of those obfuscated twists and turns is because the level needs to be streamed - the game's map is gigantic and assets need to be loaded in/unloaded on the fly which requires time.

All the twists/turns/corners also served game design wise as a device that made the game more challenging - honestly, I think the game was intended to be hard. ND managed to integrate the technical limitations of the console into the gameplay loop/difficulty in an interesting way, IMO thats a bit genius.

Overrall, the J&D trilogy was pretty brilliant. The way all the gameplay elements came together in the third one was great - they really took it to its limits gameplay wise for a platformer. I just wish we'd see more 3D platformer games with that kind of quality - collectathon platformers with great gameplay, stories and characters are a winning formula any day in my books.

Still waiting on Jak 4, ND.. your move.

 
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Jubenhimer

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Jak 2 was an evolution of the original's sectioned interconnected world. Because the world was so much bigger and detailed some things had to be changed to get it to work. The reason for all of those obfuscated twists and turns is because the level needs to be streamed - the game's map is gigantic and assets need to be loaded in/unloaded on the fly which requires time.

All twists/turns/corners also served game design wise as a device that made the game more challenging - honestly, I think the game was intended to be hard. ND managed to integrate the technical limitations of the console into the gameplay loop/difficulty in an interesting way, IMO thats a bit genius.
I get the technical reasons behind it. But I still think its annoying.
 
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Jak II was a very awkward sequel. Don't me get me wrong, I like all of the Jak and Daxter's but in my personal opinion, The Precursor Legacy was the superior game out of all of them. Probably a lot of nostalgia from it being one of my first launch PS2 games but I enjoyed it way more than its sequels. They completely ruined the humour and tone going forward.

jak and daxter dance GIF by PlayStationDE

TPL was the most pure platformer of the three, and I like it as much as the other ones, but if you look at Jak 2 or 3 it's a bit stripped down in comparison gameplay wise. I liked how the devs expanded on the gameplay of TPL with the sequels.

The biggest things i miss from the first one is the variation of enemies, the blue eco jump pads and how blue eco energeized stuff, the pole jumping and a bit of the mystique and aura the game's world had.

The thing that really annoys me about this series is that there is literally so much that could be done with it but it's all just untapped potential that no one is doing anything with. ND needs to quit being little bitches and continue the series for the fans the way it should be done. Guarantee this shit would still sell.
 
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I get the technical reasons behind it. But I still think its annoying.

Oh hell yeah it was annoying, but mechanically I found it interesting. I probably broke 2 or 3 controllers as a young kid trying to beat Jak 2.

On a side note, the water in the J&D series always scared me as a kid a bit. Mainly because the lurker sharks were fucking terrifying with the heartbeat sound and all that, but also because the water was just eerie/dark and hard to see through. Interestingly enough though, that same feeling I think also adds so much percieved atmosphere and mystique to the game's world. Shit drew me in.
 
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Shkyboy924

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TPL was the most pure platformer of the three, and I like it as much as the other ones, but if you look at Jak 2 or 3 it's a bit stripped down in comparison gameplay wise. I liked how the devs expanded on the gameplay of TPL with the sequels.

The biggest things i miss from the first one is the variation of enemies, the blue eco jump pads and how blue eco energeized stuff, the pole jumping and a bit of the mystique and aura the game's world had.

The thing that really annoys me about this series is that there is literally so much that could be done with it but it's all just untapped potential that no one is doing anything with. ND needs to quit being little bitches and continue the series for the fans the way it should be done. Guarantee this shit would still sell.
I absolutely agree.:messenger_ok:

I loved the adventurous landscape of the first game. The eco elements were fantastic and brought a lot of fun and variety to each section you went to. There was a slight primal aspect to the game and it really felt like something fresh and brimming with potential.

It's sequel on the other hand, whilst technically impressive, just lost all that lovely charm and sense of adventure. It just did a huge '360 and became a dark dreary claustrophobic mess. Eco essentially becomes new guns and ammunition and Jak became a functioning emo. At least Daxter never changed. Still our same loyal little motor mouth.

If there is a Jak IV coming in the future, I hope to see it return to its roots.

-The Sharks in TPR scared me too. That horrible pulsing heartbeat. :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
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I absolutely agree.:messenger_ok:

I loved the adventurous landscape of the first game. The eco elements were fantastic and brought a lot of fun and variety to each section you went to. There was a slight primal aspect to the game and it really felt like something fresh and brimming with potential.

It's sequel on the other hand, whilst technically impressive, just lost all that lovely charm and sense of adventure. It just did a huge '360 and became a dark dreary claustrophobic mess. Eco essentially becomes new guns and ammunition and Jak became a functioning emo. At least Daxter never changed. Still our same loyal little motor mouth.

If there is a Jak IV coming in the future, I hope to see it return to its roots.

-The Sharks in TPR scared me too. That horrible pulsing heartbeat. :messenger_grinning_sweat:

The atmosphere did change between one and two, but both were good in their own right. I liked the mystique and platforming core of the first one, and I liked the darker more mature tone of Jak 2/3. Probably because I was a kid when I played the original, and as the series progressed got further into my teens.

The sequels are perfect in the sense that they expanded on nearly everything, but yes they did miss bringing some of the good stuff back. Honestly the setting of Jak 2/3 was interesting because it was pseudo realistic but also cartoony. When ND tried to reboot J&D they for some reason explored doing it fully realistic which sort of takes it out of it's element and of course it's not going to feel right.

I've said it before, the best way to do the graphics is like the Jak 3 CGI commercials. That shit should be possible with current gen graphics and would be fine, and I think it'd satisfy their need for everything to be ultra high realistic, which is dumb in itself. They should honestly just be doing whatever the thing requires, there is no need to try and reinvent the whole thing when the existing formula is great.

Y'know I feel like people get too caught up in progression sometimes, as if they have to reinvent the wheel everytime they release a new game/product/whatever. The core formula in J&D is already great, it doesnt need to be changed too hard. Feeling like you must is false thinking. It's like painting a painting - you're not going to paint a fucking masterpiece and then paint some other shit overtop of it. Iterations are supposed to improve on the previous.
 
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Jason Rubin said on the Devs Play with Tim Shafer, they did focus testing and all of the sudden post-GTA3, their game was considered kiddy and immature compared to what their audience wanted to play. It’s pretty interesting.
It's sad because I remember it was always the most immature kids who wanted to play edgy adult games like GTA.
 
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Another example of Naughty Dog's incompetence as a creator. "Hey, Miyamoto-san, the Mario audience have grown, let's give Mario all the guns and do car chasing, make him really mature and old, and tired of life, maybe with a middle-age crisis. Let's have an emotional scene with him looking into the mirror, crying and shaving his mustashe! He's not the same MAN anymore! THAT'd be cool, right?!"
What an asinine post, Mario is beyond stale as a character, he's so sanitized because Nintendo don't want to lose their Micky Mouse.

There's a reason Nintendo fans love the shit out of Luigi, it's because he's got a personality and the fact the more people love Bowser than Mario should tell you all you need to know.

Secondly why should every platformer follow Mario's example? Or Nintendo for that matter? Just because you're the 1st doesn't mean you're the best.

I was a teen when Jak II came out and it's by far my favorite and i didn't notice "the edge" much and by today's standards it's so tame, i was happy now that the PS2 3 mascots were fully voiced and had distinict personalities and game worlds, and the stories were real fun from the swash buckling Sly and the corprate satire of Ratchet to the post apokyloptic world of Jak.

Take a look at this video
 
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LMJ

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What happened (even if ND won't admit it) was GTA happened and they saw financial potential in mimicking the current trend, luckily good writing/direction made Jak II still fun to play if a tad frustrating at times, Jak III balanced the gunplay...

Also pretty sure the tonal shift king will always go to this guy

conkers bad fur day n64 GIF
 
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Enjay

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I thought I read an interview where they explained the tonal shift was just natural to them as fans of the first game had “grown up” since then? Was a long time ago. I’ll try to google it

edit: well maybe not, I might have imagined that. Only two years between release?
They did give that bullshit response to EGM magazine. I read it too.
 

Raonak

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I honestly think the devs just got bored of doing another mascot 3d platformer, and wanted to do something different.
But J&D sold well, so sony said they need to make it a sequel.

And that's how you get Jak II
 

Royal-Slime

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What an asinine post, Mario is beyond stale as a character, he's so sanitized because Nintendo don't want to lose their Micky Mouse.

There's a reason Nintendo fans love the shit out of Luigi, it's because he's got a personality and the fact the more people love Bowser than Mario should tell you all you need to know.

Secondly why should every platformer follow Mario's example? Or Nintendo for that matter? Just because you're the 1st doesn't mean you're the best.

I was a teen when Jak II came out and it's by far my favorite and i didn't notice "the edge" much and by today's standards it's so tame, i was happy now that the PS2 3 mascots were fully voiced and had distinict personalities and game worlds, and the stories were real fun from the swash buckling Sly and the corprate satire of Ratchet to the post apokyloptic world of Jak.

Take a look at this video
Your self-respect is so low you actually believe someone is going to read the rest of your message after "what an asinine post"? :D Keep dreaming about other studios and Nintendo sucking at creativity the way Naughty Dog does, ain't happening, bud. Nintendo games are there to help people to be the best versions of themselves - something you clearly and totally suck at.
Go home.
 
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Your self-respect is so low you actually believe someone is going to read the rest of your message after "what an asinine post"? :D Keep dreaming about other studios and Nintendo sucking at creativity the way Naughty Dog does, ain't happening, bud. Nintendo games are there to help people to be the best versions of themselves - something you clearly and totally suck at.
Go home.
Big oof.
 

Whitecrow

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Jak II is a masterpiece on its own.
Great characters, great story, great gameplay, an amazing world setting, and just some difficulty spikes.

Where are now those games that excels so much in practically everything they aim for?
 
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Vick

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Loved The Precursor Legacy but actually never managed to try the sequels. In part due to all the changes, in part because at that time these kind of games were covered by Ratchet. Just like in the previous gen i was waay more of a Spyro guy than a Crash one.

My true love for Naughty Dog started with Uncharted.. and ended after TLOU, since i haven't really loved anything they produced this Gen.

Meanwhile Gamecube was primarily aimed at kids and sold awful.
GameCube was the least aimed-at-kids Nintendo Console, though. That's why it sold awful and why it's my favourite.
Some of my all time greatest were exclusive to it like REmake, RE4 or even RE0.
 

Carna

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Sonic Adventure 2 was a perfect game of mixing the platformer mascot trend, with a bit of edge. Not trying to go all adult like Conker, not being kiddy like Mario, not appealing to the gta crowd like Jak. Just extremely right.

I liked the Shadow game, but illzuka is still a cunt for the direction of that game.
 
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Jeeves

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Sonic Adventure 2 was a perfect game of mixing the platformer mascot trend, with a bit of edge. Not trying to go all adult like Conker, not being kiddy like Mario, not appealing to the gta crowd like Jak. Just extremely right.

I liked the Shadow game, but illzuka is still a cunt for the direction of that game.
You're so right, SA2 was just the right level of edgy for my preteen self, and it manages to not feel too incongruous. Then they went too far with Shadow.

Never played Jak but even at the time I was bewildered reading about it in magazines. By most accounts the game is alright, but such an obviously pandering tonal shift made it look like they didn't have any respect for their creation.
 
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Jubenhimer

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GameCube was the least aimed-at-kids Nintendo Console, though. That's why it sold awful and why it's my favourite.
Some of my all time greatest were exclusive to it like REmake, RE4 or even RE0.
The GameCube's problem was more with it having an identity crisis. Even when Nintendo was in full "How do you do fellow Kids?" mode with M-rated games and edgy marketing, it was still a purple lunchbox with a handle that had no DVD, no online, and a cartoon Zelda. Regardless of how Nintendo tried to dress it up, that's what the general public saw the GameCube as.