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[IbizaPocholo]

https://www.vg247.com/2018/11/12/deus-ex-3-warren-spector/

Some of you may be more familiar with the modern Deus Ex series – Human Revolution and Mankind Divided – which had nothing to do with Spector, however. I recently got a chance to talk to the legendary game designer and asked him how he feels about the direction the series took in his absence.

“If you ask my wife, she’d tell you that I screamed in frustration throughout much of Human Revolution,” Spector says. “There were three or four things that I would have done differently and those three or four things kind of bug me.”

So, what are those things?

“They had a modal cover system that I’m not crazy about – just let the player hide and make the AI smart enough to know,” he explains. “They didn’t give you a free [cost] weapon, so even kicking someone took energy. The AI didn’t time out effectively, which meant that once you failed a stealth attempt, you were in a shooter experience for the rest of the mission. Oh, and the boss battles. They trained you that there were multiple ways to solve problems, and then they give you a boss battle where you just have to kill the thing.

“Here’s the deal, the real bottom line. When I got to the end, I felt like I had had a Deus Ex experience. The team up there was really respectful of what we wanted to do in the original game and I think they did a really good job, with the exception of just a handful of things that frustrated me.”

The boss battles were addressed in a Director’s Cut, but the rest of those issues are at the very core of the game’s design. Still, the game was solid and it did well enough that a sequel was soon greenlit: Mankind Divided. Mankind Divided ends on a cliffhanger, suggesting another Deus Ex game was also planned, but the series has since been put on hold due to disappointing sales.

“We’ll see,” Spector says. “It has a way of coming back to life. You never know.”

Since the games industry is so unpredictable, does that mean there’s a chance we’ll ever see Spector return to Deus Ex?

“Uhh, we’ll see,” Spector says. “I’d make another game in a heartbeat. I love that world. I love gameplay, [but] don’t hold your breath.”

 

[SlashBringingHasher]

human revolution was amazing. it needed a few more things but it was limited by hardware, but its in my top 10 favorite games of all time and I hate stealth games.

Human revolution was to me a much better game than the earlier MGS games. it was so much fun, great world, amazing story, and quite possibly the greatest soundtrack of all time in games.

MD was not as good. was still a good game, just really disappointing. because of square enix

I hope EIDOS can somehow leave the shit show square enix is. like IO

HR and the first dishonored are among the few best immersive sims ever made. Dishonored was made by one of the original deus ex designers.

 

[down 2 orth]

I've got a lot of love for the new and old Deus Ex. Great writing, great gameplay, great ambiance.

 

[EDMIX]

I would want a more open Deus Ex. Felt the recent ones were small and limited and can really be great with a fully fleshed out open world.

 

[SlashBringingHasher]

I would want a more open Deus Ex. Felt the recent ones were small and limited and can really be great with a fully fleshed out open world.

i disagree and agree. the games need to have bigger more open hubs and bigger areas

but not open world

 

[Zewp]

Human Revolution wasn't bad, but it still fell short of the first game. It sits somewhere between Deus Ex 1 and Invisible War.

I felt it needed to have more variation in how you can approach objectives. The original game often had unique things like unleashing monsters on scientists in a lab, etc. Human Revolution had a tendency for missions to feel a bit samey after a while.

Mankind Divided was bad, though. I tried playing it twice, once on PC and once on Xbox One, and I couldn't get into it either time. I'm not sure exactly what went wrong, but it just didn't do anything for me. I'll probably never finish it.

 

[Inviusx]

Sadly I don't think Warren will ever direct a AAA team again.

 

[General Lee]

SE is wasting its western IPs unfortunately. Hopefully they'll eventually sell Eidos to someone else with more appreciation for the venerable PC franchises they have.

 

[Scopa]

Make it happen gaming gods. Make it happen.

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

Mankind Divided was a better game with a worst story when compared to Human Revolution.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I need the sequel to Mankind Divided. HR was one of my all time favorite games and I wish it would get a true port to current gen consoles so I can do one more play through. Also had one of the greatest soundtracks of all time.

 

[TeamGhobad]

HR was amazing. MD was dogpoop

 

[Hendrick's]

I thought IW was way better than HR or MD. I really thought those two games were trash.

 

[Filben]

To be fair, JC Denton couldn't do anything without a weapon. No melee skills at all if you not equip him with a crowbar or knife.

In regard of the cover and stealth, he is absolutely right. Great game though.

 

[Agent_Carnage]

I thought IW was way better than HR or MD. I really thought those two games were trash.

Hot Take Alert...

 

[DreamsiclesPlz]

Doing a pacifist run in Human Revolution was some of the most fun I've had in a stealth game.

 

[Strife In a Teacup]

“If you ask my wife, she’d tell you that I screamed in frustration throughout much of Human Revolution,” Spector says.

Now you know our pain when we played Invisible War, Spector.

 

[Ozrimandias]

This situation reminds me the words that David Jaffe had about Cory Barlog's God of War.....as a creator, seeing your work being carried by others in a successfull way, its a stike to your ego. David Jaffe where more honest and more diplomatic imo.

Anyway, gimme more Deus Ex.
Human Revolution was one of the most brilliant games of the past gen, amazing settings (Tokio, Detroit), amazing story, augmentations feels great, a superb soundtrack....mankind divided had its moments, failed hard in others

 

[TheShadowLord]

he is supposed to work on system shock 3 so he should get that done first after finishing that spiritual successor to Ultima

 

[Hendrick's]

Hot Take Alert...

How is that a "hot take"? IW was the last Warren Specter DE game, so I think it is rather relevant to this thread.

 

[bilderberg]

Human Revolution was amazing. Mankind Divided was largely trash. It was the most "high school creative writing" angle they could have taken of representing a divide. Lets just give half the population horribly disfiguring cybernetic implants to create an artificial divide for our story. Their was a side mission in Human Revolution where a woman was being driven out of work because she couldn't afford a cybernetic implant to boost her productivity as an accountant. She goes through some back alley dealings with the Triads to be able to afford it and things go to shit. That's an issue I could actually see happening in the future and it's pretty fucking scary to think about.

 

[Leonard Washington]

If you enjoy Human Revolution then you really owe it to yourself to play it on the Wii U.



Wow. It really is such an amazing rendition as the 2nd screen is used perfectly for everything from inventory, hacking to AR and the game plays like a dream plus having such a clean UI on the TV adds so much to the experience.

MD on the other hand was such a huge step backwards in pretty much every respect. Not quite Prince of Persia Sands of Time to Warrior "You Bitch!" Within level atrocity but almost as the game was completely devoid of everything that made HR so great as that title was an easy 9/10 for me.

 

[GTR R35_Supra RZ]

CyberPunk prolly will kill any hope Deus EX has..it's just so much more what CD team is building.

 

[Agent_Carnage]

How is that a "hot take"? IW was the last Warren Specter DE game, so I think it is rather relevant to this thread.

Invisible War is generally considered the worst in the franchise.

 

[Kadayi]

To my mind, the fundamental problem with the Deus Ex series from the off was the disconnect between what the narrative is telling you in terms of scope, versus what the limitations the game world was delivering. Back when the first game launched it was ok to forgive the failings in terms of the technical constraints of what could be delivered, but the paucity of environmental richness became more obvious with IW (locations that were supposed to be buzzing, almost completely devoid of NPCs). Sadly Human revolution for all its positives fell into the same trap by slavishly adhering to the same formula of international migration as with the earlier titles and really suffered for it.

Personally, I felt they needed to eschew the international travel aspect of the storyline and instead build out a more robust Detroit as an open world city to some degree ala GTA or Watchdogs, because unfortunately, the extremely contained nature of all the environments really worked against immersion in my view (especially in MD where Cars were notable for never being driven...).

Similarly, in both HR and MD the developers instantly undermined any sense of narrative cohesion by failing to ground the actual authority and role you play in both games, first as head of Sarif Security and secondly as a Taskforce 29 Interpol agent. There's no sense in either title that, your role means anything in terms of your place in the world. You'd think being head of Sarif security you'd just be able to just pick up a phone and get an arsenal of weapons and equipment delivered to you, but nope, you have to snuffle around collecting pickups. Makes. No. Sense.
Also for what it's worth I wasn't entirely sold on the premise. The idea that everyday people would happily replace perfectly functional limbs to the extent that they represented a substantial swathe of humanity just didn't sit right with me. I kind of feel the whole storyline needed a thorough going over to make it more robust. It would have made more sense for the vast majority of implants to be less intrusive, with whole limb replacement being very much the extreme.

With all that said I enjoyed my time with HR despite its flaws, sadly MD bored me to tears and I ultimately bounced off of it. No real interest in playing further titles based on that particular narrative, but I wouldn't be opposed to a full reboot/reimagining of the series with some more considered and robust world building behind it.

 

[Leonard Washington]

The idea that everyday people would happily replace perfectly functional limbs to the extent that they represented a substantial swathe of humanity just didn't sit right with me

You ain't seen the amount of females replacing perfectly functional asses and titties lately? That was one of the most realistic parts of the storyline because all these fools walking around will eat it up with a quickness once their iPhone becomes an iBall, buleevedat!

 

[Helios]

CyberPunk prolly will kill any hope Deus EX has..it's just so much more what CD team is building.

But they've got nothing in common. Even the cyberpunk elements look differently.

 

[Kadayi]

You ain't seen the amount of females replacing perfectly functional asses and titties lately? That was one of the most realistic parts of the storyline because all these fools walking around will eat it up with a quickness once their iPhone becomes an iBall, buleevedat!

They're not replacing them, they're enhancing them, and at the end of the day implants still sit underneath the skin. In HR and MD, you've people walking around with almost as much metal in them as the protag. It just doesn't make that much sense. You're the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Sub_Level]

Deus Ex 1 is a masterpiece. A genuine 10/10 game. It gives you total player agency.

Hack that terminal to disable the laser grid or run through the lasers anyway. Or stack boxes to jump over lasers.

Bribe that guard or sneak past them. Or blow them up.

Lockpick that door or find the key. Or blow it up.

Human Revolution almost succeeds at this. But its noticeably more restrictive. Instead of 4 or 5 options you'll have 2 or 3.

Mankind Divided is a masterpiece that improves on HR. Too bad its an incomplete game.

 

[Leonard Washington]

They're not replacing them, they're enhancing them, and at the end of the day implants still sit underneath the skin. In HR and MD, you've people walking around with almost as much metal in them as the protag. It just doesn't make that much sense. You're the exception rather than the rule.

If you can't see how one leads to the other then you lawst. Wait and see, it'll happen in your lifetime anyway and then you'll be able to say "You know, that Leonard Washington was right. What a dumbass I am. I should just read his posts, agree with them wholeheartedly and then launch scathingly vitriolic attacks on anyone who attempts to deny his entertaining perspicacity".

 

[EviLore]

Kadayi Yep, various GitS incarnations and lots of other cyberpunk stories handle this subject well. People aren't likely to chop off their biological limbs or yank out their eyeballs trivially (unless they can be grown back via stem cells or some such). White collar labor mainly benefits from neurological enhancement and digital interfacing. For industrial applications, we already have a pathway to full automation through robotics. Military use of advanced prosthesis would make sense considering how common non-fatal field trauma requiring prosthetic replacement back in civilian life already occurs.

OG Deus Ex had better internal logic than the recent ones in that regard, too, with how it worked the nanotech vs prosthetic angles with those other spec ops agents you confront. That one older soldier is bitter as hell at you, staring at his own clunky metallic obsolescence while you get cool superpowers at no particular cost to your sense of humanity.

 

[Hendrick's]

Invisible War is generally considered the worst in the franchise.

That's cool, but I really enjoyed it.

 

[EDMIX]

i disagree and agree. the games need to have bigger more open hubs and bigger areas

but not open world

Well...that would be open world tbh. Simply has to do with what you think is "open world". I mean, I'm not asking for MMO scale or anything like that but they can have a more complex set up with a larger world

 

[Kadayi]

If you can't see how one leads to the other then you lawst. Wait and see, it'll happen in your lifetime anyway and then you'll be able to say "You know, that Leonard Washington was right. What a dumbass I am. I should just read his posts, agree with them wholeheartedly and then launch scathingly vitriolic attacks on anyone who attempts to deny his entertaining perspicacity".

At the thought of that never happening.

Kadayi Yep, various GitS incarnations and lots of other cyberpunk stories handle this subject well. People aren't likely to chop off their biological limbs or yank out their eyeballs trivially (unless they can be grown back via stem cells or some such). White collar labor mainly benefits from neurological enhancement and digital interfacing. For industrial applications, we already have a pathway to full automation through robotics. Military use of advanced prosthesis would make sense considering how common non-fatal field trauma requiring prosthetic replacement back in civilian life already occurs.

OG Deus Ex had better internal logic than the recent ones in that regard, too, with how it worked the nanotech vs prosthetic angles with those other spec ops agents you confront. That one older soldier is bitter as hell at you, staring at his own clunky metallic obsolescence while you get cool superpowers at no particular cost to your sense of humanity.

Glad someone else understands where I'm coming from. It's not like the writers couldn't have come up with a solid justification. A genetically engineered necrotic epidemic could have been spread on mass by fanatical bio-terrorists or some such, would have done the trick, and would have made a lot more sense as to why assorted office types had steel legs versus 'I wanted to be able to run faster'.

 

[Helios]

People aren't likely to chop off their biological limbs or yank out their eyeballs trivially

It also makes you look like freak and requires you to take a very expensive drug manufactured by one company. Heck, the game specifically avoids answering you which jobs people will lose because of mechanical augmentation and yet there are riots in the streets because of it.
It wouldn't have even been that big of a deal if it was like DE1 where there are multiple themes and layers to the story. DE1 also had transhumanism but they also dealt with plutocracies, terrorism, centralization of power, loss of personal privacy among other lesser ones.

 

[Raven117]

I sure liked them.

 

[SlashBringingHasher]

Well...that would be open world tbh. Simply has to do with what you think is "open world". I mean, I'm not asking for MMO scale or anything like that but they can have a more complex set up with a larger world

not exactly. I mean the hubs need to have more interactive locations and a bit more of a view what an actual city would be like

but I don't want the actual city. with the mission areas i want them to be less linear. one or two more paths etc.


I definitely prefer the whole fly off to a mission area design instead of having open world locations

 

[EDMIX]

not exactly. I mean the hubs need to have more interactive locations and a bit more of a view what an actual city would be like

but I don't want the actual city. with the mission areas i want them to be less linear. one or two more paths etc.


I definitely prefer the whole fly off to a mission area design instead of having open world locations

ok, I get more of what you mean.

 

[zcaa0g]

Mankind Divided was in dire need of memorable characters and globe hopping like in the first Deus Ex. Prague got old real quick.

 

[anthraticus]

Best Deus Ex is the original with GMDX mod.

 

[Fitzchiv]

I can honestly say I've never not enjoyed a DX game, or not enjoyed a playthrough. Weirdly I finished my second total playthrough of DX:MD last night including the DLC for the first time. I genuinely don't understand why people call that game trash, it's an extremely rich, well constructed experience with almost zero jankiness. Compare it to some of the half finished shit released and you appreciate how much polish there is in that game. Sure, it's not DX:HR in terms of being a completely new step, but it's a solid improvement on gameplay, setting and mechanics. The story is where the disappointment is more justifiably set, imo. You can see where they cut chunks out, and the way it ends can only be excusable if there's a second game coming FAST.

I kind of get the complaints about writing, but at the same time I think they're quite constrained in how the story moves from DX:HR through MD to the as yet non existent title which clearly then plugs in to the original. I think they got to writing DX:MD and thought "Shit, we've got one proper arc here to join HR with the iconic" hence the feeling it's a bit clumsy in how it bends.

I think they have the opportunity, should they wish to, to establish the DX IP for many more iterations if they get the next one right. It'd be a bloody travesty for them to keep it on hold too long.

 

[HyGogg]

He's right about the bosses and not being able to de-escalate things when spotted, but I still have to admit that I enjoyed HR and MD more than the originals.

I am excited to see Spector return to the genre when System Shock 3 comes out. Underworld Ascendant comes out this week too, but I don't know how hands-on he was with that.

 

[Isa]

Interesting read. I love all the Deus Ex games. I'm weird as I really loved Invisible War, being able to pick my character played a huge role in that. But I actually prefer the "style" of HR and MD. Its a world I'd love to hop in to. My only significant complaint about the new installments is the lack of great conspiracies. I know its set earlier but I miss the greys and Omar. Perhaps I'm spoiled but games like Deus Ex, System Shock, Bioshock, Thief and Dishonored are big reasons why RDR2 is disappointing to me, as it removes player agency to force a cinematic experience. Which can be cool, but in an open world game all about systems, I was left wanting.

Also agree about HR's amazing soundtrack.

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

I thought Human Revolution was way overrated and have yet to bother with MD at all.

 

[Touch fuzZy. get BizZay]

I feel that Deus Ex is a 10/10, timeless masterpiece, game of the generation kind of title. But just like how The Phantom Menace made me completely apathetic towards anything to do with my once beloved Star Wars nowadays, I really can't muster more than a shoulder shrug in response to recent Deus Ex titles because Invisible War was so shockingly disappointing as a sequel. To go from Deus Ex's gameplay and story freedom, memorable characters, and thoughtful inclusion of cyberpunk themes and fascinating conspiracy theories to a game that basically had none of those things was a major low point for me in all my years of gaming. To put it in the words of ya boi, what's-his-name: "I never asked for that."

So while Spector is a genius and he gets a lot of credit for Deus Ex, he has to a least share some of the blame for Invisible War. I know he didn't direct but he chose the director, played a supervising role, and did PR for the game.