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[VGT] Resident Evil Village DEMO: PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S Frame Rate Comparison

dcmk7

Banned
A minority of devs complaining with early dev kits that don't utilize the full features of the device isn't news worthy. The 30 fps cap is with raytracing enabled without it we are already seeing 60 fps performance. You probably don't know this but raytracing is expensive performance wise. Compromises have to be made to enable it. If you say the PS5 DE at $299 is a better deal than the XSS at $299 I agree with you.
Metro Exodus studio clearly used Direct X12 Ultimate, they stated it. They didn't complain about the dev kit at all. So don't think your excuse has any merit.

They actually complained about the XSS physical limitations, which will be more detrimental going forward into the generation. Their words.

They are in a good position to assess the situation since they are the experts. Not you or me.

That's not getting into the numerous ID Software guys twitter rants. Which were much more scathing.

On the other hand the PS5DE isnt concerning any developers. So disagree with you there on the value for money. It does what a next gen console should do.
 

Riky

$MSFT
The performance saving features from RDNA2 were only added to the GDK recently so the comments from the Metro devs predated that change, we'll see how Series S handles that game next month anyway.
The devs of SCORN and Ori said the opposite and that Series S was no problem, so it's not a one sided viewpoint.
 
The issue is that you're looking at Gamepass and old games. If you want to play current gen titles then the PS5 DE is the best value due to the performance that it offers.



Nope that's the main issue with Gamepass. Not every single game is available on it. For people buying RE8 they get bad RT performance on the XSS (I know it's the devs fault but it's still the experience you will get) compared to the PS5 DE which offers a good level of performance for only 100$ extra.
You dismiss 'old' games but the more expensive option you suggest doesn't play those games much better than their original release. That is an odd definition of value. You'd figure if you were paying more you'd get more. Games are games and with XSS you are getting more 60fps titles than a more expensive alternative.

With regards to Resident Evil, Capcom could optimize the performance on the XSS and if you drop raytracing you are getting an equivalent experience as the other consoles. The $100 you save gets you both the game and something else on the side. Value wins again.
 

JackMcGunns

Member
RTOn.png



SvMembn.jpg

JackMcGunns JackMcGunns This is why that other guy is a banned source.



Look at the graph, it was running 60fps for him as well, and then fluctuated as you can see by the graph.

We already talked about other reasons, such as it NOT being perfectly synchronized footage.

But it happened in the DF foundry video as well, since it's not perfectly synchronized, there will be bits that show a bigger disparity.

For example:

DI2twcj.png




So does this mean DF is biased as well? No, it just means the footage is not perfectly synchronized, that's very hard to do while playing on different platforms.

What you're doing is trying to invalidate the source insinuating that there was foul play, when there's no evidence that there was any, sure they have admitted to committing some errors in the past, but the channel isn't that bad as you're making it out to be, they could learn from their mistakes, NXG started off small as well.

What should be noted however is that the PS5 is seen dipping into the 40s in this scene, whereas XSX maintains itself mostly in the 50s range.
 
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assurdum

Banned
Not great performance in RT mode from any console, strange that they measured different amout of game frames between the two. Probably because of the loading screen on Series vs no loading screen on PS5

fznOa0V.jpg
I mean such performance is far from bad targeting 60 FPS with raytracing
 
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assurdum

Banned
Look at the graph, it was running 60fps for him as well, and then fluctuated as you can see by the graph.

We already talked about other reasons, such as it NOT being perfectly synchronized footage.

But it happened in the DF foundry video as well, since it's not perfectly synchronized, there will be bits that show a bigger disparity.

For example:

DI2twcj.png




So does this mean DF is biased as well? No, it just means the footage is not perfectly synchronized, that's very hard to do while playing on different platforms.

What you're doing is trying to invalidate the source insinuating that there was foul play, when there's no evidence that there was any, sure they have admitted to committing some errors in the past, but the channel isn't that bad as you're making it out to be, they could learn from their mistakes, NXG started off small as well.

What should be noted however is that the PS5 is seen dipping into the 40s in this scene, whereas XSX maintains itself mostly in the 50s range.
No one biased DF but this scene is quite demanding on both and it's not like it runs 40 FPS Vs 50 FPS for average eh....it drops to 48 FPS at worst on series X. looking at VGtech channel seems we are talking of 5 FPS of advantage in some spot.
 
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You dismiss 'old' games but the more expensive option you suggest doesn't play those games much better than their original release. That is an odd definition of value. You'd figure if you were paying more you'd get more. Games are games and with XSS you are getting more 60fps titles than a more expensive alternative.

With regards to Resident Evil, Capcom could optimize the performance on the XSS and if you drop raytracing you are getting an equivalent experience as the other consoles. The $100 you save gets you both the game and something else on the side. Value wins again.

You're not saying the XSS is more powerful than the PS5 right?
 

Md Ray

Member
Look at the graph, it was running 60fps for him as well, and then fluctuated as you can see by the graph.

We already talked about other reasons, such as it NOT being perfectly synchronized footage.

But it happened in the DF foundry video as well, since it's not perfectly synchronized, there will be bits that show a bigger disparity.

For example:

DI2twcj.png




So does this mean DF is biased as well? No, it just means the footage is not perfectly synchronized, that's very hard to do while playing on different platforms.

What you're doing is trying to invalidate the source insinuating that there was foul play, when there's no evidence that there was any, sure they have admitted to committing some errors in the past, but the channel isn't that bad as you're making it out to be, they could learn from their mistakes, NXG started off small as well.

What should be noted however is that the PS5 is seen dipping into the 40s in this scene, whereas XSX maintains itself mostly in the 50s range.
What a disingenuous post defending a fraud.
 
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22•22

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
I'm definitely interested in it. But unfortunately I don't have a PS5. I really don't want to go through the game on my PS4 Pro since the PS5 version is leagues better.

Fair enough! Playing on Pro and it's awesome! Although if it were 30fps tho I would've waited i reckon. Nevertheless it feels smooth enough! Happy days.
 
The performance saving features from RDNA2 were only added to the GDK recently so the comments from the Metro devs predated that change, we'll see how Series S handles that game next month anyway.
The devs of SCORN and Ori said the opposite and that Series S was no problem, so it's not a one sided viewpoint.
The guy goes blind and deaf if a dev says the XSS is no problem. Clinging to comments made by ID last year is reaching for the negativity. To think that the XSS will be the first console is history that will perform worse as the generation continues is a position I would never take. Oh well Taylor Swift said haters gonna hate so far be it from me to speak of the glass being half full when people can't see the glass at all.
 

skit_data

Member
The issue is that you're looking at Gamepass and old games. If you want to play current gen titles then the PS5 DE is the best value due to the performance that it offers.



Nope that's the main issue with Gamepass. Not every single game is available on it. For people buying RE8 they get bad RT performance on the XSS (I know it's the devs fault but it's still the experience you will get) compared to the PS5 DE which offers a good level of performance for only 100$ extra.
Just give up, Darkmage would see i bigger value in Series S than donating those $299 to provide 5 years of food, education and shelter for half an orphanage in Africa
 
How did you get that from anything I typed? The XSS is a budget console. It just happens to do certain things better than a console that costs more. In terms of raw performance of course the PS5 is more powerful. Never said otherwise.

From saying it has more 60FPs games than the PS5.
 

22•22

NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
I'm really enjoying it. Still in the castle.

Happy to hear mate! I just got there!

Get your ass in the OT if you feel inclined to give your impressions perhaps. It's nice to read people's thoughts no matter how they feel. Technical analysis is something else entirely. ( which is important in it's own right ofc)
 

assurdum

Banned
The performance saving features from RDNA2 were only added to the GDK recently so the comments from the Metro devs predated that change, we'll see how Series S handles that game next month anyway.
The devs of SCORN and Ori said the opposite and that Series S was no problem, so it's not a one sided viewpoint.
Give Me A Break Reaction GIF by A24
 

dcmk7

Banned
The performance saving features from RDNA2 were only added to the GDK recently so the comments from the Metro devs predated that change, we'll see how Series S handles that game next month anyway.
The devs of SCORN and Ori said the opposite and that Series S was no problem, so it's not a one sided viewpoint.

DirectX12 Ultimate has been in preview for over a year actually, so it's hardly caught anyone by surprise since the features and API are all very well documented. The memory inside the XSS has been known for ages and these devs haven't even complained about the API... at all, in fact they talked up the features and abilities.

So its a very naïve thing to say. It's like you don't know what you're talking about. The problem according to them is the hardware available to them.

And as for the other studios any links at all? based on your history and reputation around here, wouldn't be surprised if you have twisted a quote beyond all recognition.
 

Riky

$MSFT
DirectX12 Ultimate has been in preview for over a year actually, so it's hardly caught anyone by surprise since the features and API are all very well documented. The memory inside the XSS has been known for ages and these devs haven't even complained about the API... at all, in fact they talked up the features and abilities.

So its a very naïve thing to say. It's like you don't know what you're talking about. The problem according to them is the hardware available to them.

And as for the other studios any links at all? based on your history and reputation around here, wouldn't be surprised if you have twisted a quote beyond all recognition.
It was known the features were coming, that's not much use until they are part of the GDK, that's obvious to anyone.
Ori was the interview with DF and the SCORN developer tweeted it, both were posted here but they don't fit your hate agenda so you ignore them.
The only reputation around here is the people who seem obsessed with Series S despite having no intention of buying one, it's quite bizarre.
Maybe it deflects the results of the head to head is my guess.
 

dcmk7

Banned
The guy goes blind and deaf if a dev says the XSS is no problem. Clinging to comments made by ID last year is reaching for the negativity. To think that the XSS will be the first console is history that will perform worse as the generation continues is a position I would never take. Oh well Taylor Swift said haters gonna hate so far be it from me to speak of the glass being half full when people can't see the glass at all.
Bud, I answered your question from the other day when you moaned about me being selective. The positive story from the MotoGP, who I do believe had no trouble with it. Try reading. It helps.

Previously, you've demanded to see and hear what developers have actually done before you would even agree that they have a point and then add that to your recent history where you've defended a price hike and hid a broken XSX on this forum.
It's beyond embarrassing how fanboyish you are.

To think that the XSS will be the first console is history that will perform worse as the generation continues is a position I would never take.
Show me where I said this??

This was said by the Chief Technical Officer of the Metro Exodus studio 4A Games.

You've just proven how deluded, fanboyish and ignorant you are in one simple sentence. Congrats.
 
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dcmk7

Banned
It was known the features were coming, that's not much use until they are part of the GDK, that's obvious to anyone.
Ori was the interview with DF and the SCORN developer tweeted it, both were posted here but they don't fit your hate agenda so you ignore them.
The only reputation around here is the people who seem obsessed with Series S despite having no intention of buying one, it's quite bizarre.
Maybe it deflects the results of the head to head is my guess.
Like I said DX12U been in preview for over a year.. so that debunks your theory.

Most of your other theories get debunked around here.

You're usually quick to 'prove' stuff plastering comparison images (usually cherry picked) and twisting quotes beyond recognition in your posts.. has even got you banned in the past. And seeing as you didn't do that in your post this time, I can imagine the interviews are pretty tenuous but maybe you'll surprise me. Who knows.
 

Riky

$MSFT
Being in preview doesn't mean having all features available, the interview and Tweet have already been posted here, I'm sure even you can manage the search function ok.

Here is what the Medium developers said though as this hasn't been mentioned,

"
But what of Microsoft’s less powerful Xbox Series S. Where does it fit into this reliance on next-gen power? The message from the team is clear: don’t worry about the small console’s relative lack of power.

“Yeah, I even played the whole game on Series S like one week ago and I was blown away because I thought I played on Series X,” says Zięba. “Somebody told me “man, this is Series S.” What! Awesome, wonderful. Of course, you know, there will not be 4K because S does not support 4K, and of course it will maybe look different a little to Series X because X is twice as powerful, but the overall experience and fun from the game, it is the same. I own the Series S and I can’t wait to play in my home.”

“Yeah, so the graphics are still nice because we’ve got a really cool graphic art style and I love the art style of the game. It’s in lower resolution, but it’s still the same great experience,” adds Piejko.

“The architecture of S, of this little while box, is just awesome,” says Zięba"

So like I said, it's not a one sided opinion.
 
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Look at the graph, it was running 60fps for him as well, and then fluctuated as you can see by the graph.

We already talked about other reasons, such as it NOT being perfectly synchronized footage.

But it happened in the DF foundry video as well, since it's not perfectly synchronized, there will be bits that show a bigger disparity.

For example:

DI2twcj.png




So does this mean DF is biased as well? No, it just means the footage is not perfectly synchronized, that's very hard to do while playing on different platforms.

What you're doing is trying to invalidate the source insinuating that there was foul play, when there's no evidence that there was any, sure they have admitted to committing some errors in the past, but the channel isn't that bad as you're making it out to be, they could learn from their mistakes, NXG started off small as well.

What should be noted however is that the PS5 is seen dipping into the 40s in this scene, whereas XSX maintains itself mostly in the 50s range.

I believe this scene shows why both run at the same settings. In regards to ElAnalistadeBits he managed to somehow capture a framerate drop when nobody else has shown similar drops during that sequence. It looks a little odd to me since both are a locked 60FPs until the first shot is fired. At least thats what I've seen in the other comparisons.

Edit: Also ElAnalistadeBits channel has been operational since 2012. It's not like he's a noob at this.

Edit 2: I looked into his channel a little bit and it appears that while he was doing comparisons for a while he only started doing framerate analysis a couple of years ago. I'm not sure what software he's using but it's definitely not accurate if you compare his results to Digital Foundrys, VGTech and NXgamer.

I don't know what software the other two use but NXgamer seems to have made his own.
 
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phil_t98

#SonyToo
You didn't just asked. There was a continuous ping pong with the two sides about what was better between the two, why they ran like this and so on, it's not a coincidence in the same moment you just asked in such situation. No way a normal person can think such clause in a contract was about to downgrade the other versions. Let's move on.
I did just ask and it was my first post in the thread
 

Mr Moose

Member
Look at the graph, it was running 60fps for him as well, and then fluctuated as you can see by the graph.

We already talked about other reasons, such as it NOT being perfectly synchronized footage.

But it happened in the DF foundry video as well, since it's not perfectly synchronized, there will be bits that show a bigger disparity.
It doesn't fluctuate at all in that part of the scene, and it doesn't tear like his graph shows, it's bad tools (or faked, but probably just bad/old tools).
 
It doesn't fluctuate at all in that part of the scene, and it doesn't tear like his graph shows, it's bad tools (or faked, but probably just bad/old tools).


I looked into ElAnalistadeBits and it seems like he isn't very good with comparisons. Whether or not he's taking the results remains to be seen. If he doesn't improve and continues to deliver bad comparisons then we can start questioning his integrity.
 

skit_data

Member
I looked into ElAnalistadeBits and it seems like he isn't very good with comparisons. Whether or not he's taking the results remains to be seen. If he doesn't improve and continues to deliver bad comparisons then we can start questioning his integrity.
He missed that train long ago, it’s too late to save that channels reputation IMO. If someone has a reputation of several times doing bad comparisons, there is no reason to trust that channel when we already have several better, more thorough alternatives.

My personal favorite is VGtech. No talking, no guessing, no excusing, just plain numbers and graphs.
 

dcmk7

Banned
Being in preview doesn't mean having all features available, the interview and Tweet have already been posted here, I'm sure even you can manage the search function ok.

What's the point of discussing anything with you when you ignore facts.

The lengths you go to man.. wow. I hope you come back to reality soon.
 

dcmk7

Banned
Being in preview doesn't mean having all features available, the interview and Tweet have already been posted here, I'm sure even you can manage the search function ok.

Here is what the Medium developers said though as this hasn't been mentioned,

"
But what of Microsoft’s less powerful Xbox Series S. Where does it fit into this reliance on next-gen power? The message from the team is clear: don’t worry about the small console’s relative lack of power.

“Yeah, I even played the whole game on Series S like one week ago and I was blown away because I thought I played on Series X,” says Zięba. “Somebody told me “man, this is Series S.” What! Awesome, wonderful. Of course, you know, there will not be 4K because S does not support 4K, and of course it will maybe look different a little to Series X because X is twice as powerful, but the overall experience and fun from the game, it is the same. I own the Series S and I can’t wait to play in my home.”

“Yeah, so the graphics are still nice because we’ve got a really cool graphic art style and I love the art style of the game. It’s in lower resolution, but it’s still the same great experience,” adds Piejko.

“The architecture of S, of this little while box, is just awesome,” says Zięba"

So like I said, it's not a one sided opinion.

Edited your post to bring up the Medium..

Sub HD in lots of parts, stuttering constantly to 20 FPS and it maxed out the VRAM that they dropped ray-tracing entirely for the Series S.

Yeh.. it sounds like the development and optimisation went really well.

He didn't notice he played on the Series S? Jeez, he's laying the positive PR spiel pretty thick.

He's not even a developer.
 
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Riky

$MSFT
"While the Xbox Series S will be yet another platform to contend with that will take some time in testing and quality assurance, many developers nowadays are used to a much more dynamic ecosystem of hardware. Even in the console space we have had different tiers of the same consoles for many years. The way Xbox Series S differs from Xbox Series X (memory amount and GPU horsepower, mostly) is for us much easier to adapt to than to for example the wide variety of PCs out in the wild or the way that the previous generation of consoles differed. Less memory and slower GPU are things that most game developers can dynamically scale for by scaling resolutions and graphics effects, while different storage solutions or widely varying CPU performance are much harder to adapt to. All in all, we don’t think that the Xbox Series S will significantly limit the game development progress as a whole in any way."

Warhammer Dev

"So will this Xbox Series S actually hold back next-gen games? Probably not. “No it’s not [going to hold back next-gen],” says Gavin Stevens, co-owner and design lead of indie studio Team Blur Games. “Anybody with even a little experience will tell you as such.” The reality is that the Xbox Series S will require developers to balance and scale their games just like many already do across a choice of hardware for PC gaming, and existing Xbox and PlayStation consoles.
"

Like I said, not a one sided opinion.
 

Mr Moose

Member
"While the Xbox Series S will be yet another platform to contend with that will take some time in testing and quality assurance, many developers nowadays are used to a much more dynamic ecosystem of hardware. Even in the console space we have had different tiers of the same consoles for many years. The way Xbox Series S differs from Xbox Series X (memory amount and GPU horsepower, mostly) is for us much easier to adapt to than to for example the wide variety of PCs out in the wild or the way that the previous generation of consoles differed. Less memory and slower GPU are things that most game developers can dynamically scale for by scaling resolutions and graphics effects, while different storage solutions or widely varying CPU performance are much harder to adapt to. All in all, we don’t think that the Xbox Series S will significantly limit the game development progress as a whole in any way."

Warhammer Dev

"So will this Xbox Series S actually hold back next-gen games? Probably not. “No it’s not [going to hold back next-gen],” says Gavin Stevens, co-owner and design lead of indie studio Team Blur Games. “Anybody with even a little experience will tell you as such.” The reality is that the Xbox Series S will require developers to balance and scale their games just like many already do across a choice of hardware for PC gaming, and existing Xbox and PlayStation consoles.
"

Like I said, not a one sided opinion.
The first one I'll give you, but Gavin Stevens? Might as well get quotes from the Dolphin guy and the ex-Sony guy.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
Okay just beat it on XsX running RT the whole time.

game looks great. I’m actually installs it now on my XoX and XoS just to see what it looks like on those. The game is a looker for sure and runs very well. Capcom got a dinner with this engine.
 

"While the Xbox Series S will be yet another platform to contend with that will take some time in testing and quality assurance, many developers nowadays are used to a much more dynamic ecosystem of hardware. Even in the console space we have had different tiers of the same consoles for many years. The way Xbox Series S differs from Xbox Series X (memory amount and GPU horsepower, mostly) is for us much easier to adapt to than to for example the wide variety of PCs out in the wild or the way that the previous generation of consoles differed. Less memory and slower GPU are things that most game developers can dynamically scale for by scaling resolutions and graphics effects, while different storage solutions or widely varying CPU performance are much harder to adapt to. All in all, we don’t think that the Xbox Series S will significantly limit the game development progress as a whole in any way."

Warhammer Dev

"So will this Xbox Series S actually hold back next-gen games? Probably not. “No it’s not [going to hold back next-gen],” says Gavin Stevens, co-owner and design lead of indie studio Team Blur Games. “Anybody with even a little experience will tell you as such.” The reality is that the Xbox Series S will require developers to balance and scale their games just like many already do across a choice of hardware for PC gaming, and existing Xbox and PlayStation consoles.
"

Like I said, not a one sided opinion.

Isn't Gavin Stevens the guy who set his PS5 on fire and blamed it on the cooling?
 

dcmk7

Banned
"While the Xbox Series S will be yet another platform to contend with that will take some time in testing and quality assurance, many developers nowadays are used to a much more dynamic ecosystem of hardware. Even in the console space we have had different tiers of the same consoles for many years. The way Xbox Series S differs from Xbox Series X (memory amount and GPU horsepower, mostly) is for us much easier to adapt to than to for example the wide variety of PCs out in the wild or the way that the previous generation of consoles differed. Less memory and slower GPU are things that most game developers can dynamically scale for by scaling resolutions and graphics effects, while different storage solutions or widely varying CPU performance are much harder to adapt to. All in all, we don’t think that the Xbox Series S will significantly limit the game development progress as a whole in any way."

Warhammer Dev

"So will this Xbox Series S actually hold back next-gen games? Probably not. “No it’s not [going to hold back next-gen],” says Gavin Stevens, co-owner and design lead of indie studio Team Blur Games. “Anybody with even a little experience will tell you as such.” The reality is that the Xbox Series S will require developers to balance and scale their games just like many already do across a choice of hardware for PC gaming, and existing Xbox and PlayStation consoles.
"

Like I said, not a one sided opinion.

Yeh I noticed this interview. Important part right here:

we don’t think that the Xbox Series S will significantly limit the game development progress as a whole in any way."
Won't affect it significantly.. But will affect it.

So they do have to compromise on design.

So will this Xbox Series S actually hold back next-gen games? Probably not
"Probably not". :messenger_grinning_smiling:

They sound very convincing.
 

DForce

NaughtyDog Defense Force
Look at the graph, it was running 60fps for him as well, and then fluctuated as you can see by the graph.

We already talked about other reasons, such as it NOT being perfectly synchronized footage.

But it happened in the DF foundry video as well, since it's not perfectly synchronized, there will be bits that show a bigger disparity.

For example:

DI2twcj.png




So does this mean DF is biased as well? No, it just means the footage is not perfectly synchronized, that's very hard to do while playing on different platforms.

What you're doing is trying to invalidate the source insinuating that there was foul play, when there's no evidence that there was any, sure they have admitted to committing some errors in the past, but the channel isn't that bad as you're making it out to be, they could learn from their mistakes, NXG started off small as well.

What should be noted however is that the PS5 is seen dipping into the 40s in this scene, whereas XSX maintains itself mostly in the 50s range.

You're being dishonest again. I don't know why you guys chose to lie when the evidence is right in front of us.

Both drops appear in the VG Tech video and it's only within 3 frames of each other.

ElAnalistaDeBits frame-rate graph shows several large and small frame-rate drops which doesn't appear VG Tech's video.

The problem with ElAnalistaDeBits has nothing to do with synchronized footage. You tried to show a scene that dropped to the 40s which doesn't appear in VG Tech's video.
 

Riky

$MSFT
The first one I'll give you, but Gavin Stevens? Might as well get quotes from the Dolphin guy and the ex-Sony guy.

Like I said DF interviewed both the Ori and Dirt 5 developer and they said they had no problem with Series S and the SCORN developer tweeted that as well.
So not all Devs have the same opinion is my point.
 

sircaw

Banned
I remember this discussion many months ago, i thought we were past it

here's a line from some crap designer at a really shitty company that does not know how to make games, Cough.

Some of the changes Microsoft has made to accommodate a cheaper Series S console have created a lot of debate around whether this console will hold back next-gen gaming in general. “Really bummed about this RAM situation on the Series S,” said Axel Gneiting, a principal engine programmer at id Software, in a now deleted tweet. “This isn’t easy to compensate and drags down base spec quite a bit for next-gen multi platform.”

Billy Khan, a lead engine programmer at id Software, shared Gneiting’s concerns. “The memory situation is a big issue on the S,” said Khan in another deleted tweet. “The much lower amount of memory and the split memory banks with drastically slower speeds will be a major issue. Aggressively lowering the render resolutions will marginally help but will not completely counteract the deficiencies.”

If you cant trust an id software engineer, who can you trust.
 
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Riky

$MSFT
Yeh I noticed this interview. Important part right here:


Won't affect it significantly.. But will affect it.

So they do have to compromise on design.


"Probably not". :messenger_grinning_smiling:

They sound very convincing.

You can also use your favourite the Metro Devs who you use very frequently for some reason and in the end they worked around the "problems".........
 
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