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Vegetarian |OT| of live and let live

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HappyBivouac said:
Some silly lofty philosophical questions for the vegetarians & vegans:

1) Vegetarianism/veganism seems to be mostly, though not entirely, founded on the notion that killing a sentient being (animal) to take in its life energy for one's own is more morally reprehensible than killing a non-sentient being (plant) to take in its life energy for one's own. Do you acknowledge that is notion is entirely a self-serving, self-important one? I believe that we only care more about sentient beings because it's easier for us to empathize with them.

2) This one if even more out there and is pretty unrealistic, so you don't have to answer it, but bonus points if you do! If there were some sort of global effort to use factory farming, including not-torture levels of inhumane treatment but still not the ideal conditions for farm animals, that was guaranteed to give every starving person on the planet a meal a day, would you support this cause?

I love vegetarian food and have reduced my meat intake drastically in the past several years. This is the sort of stuff I would ask even if I were to go full-on vegetarian. If any of you find it horribly offensive I can remove it.

People will look differently at these things, but here is my effort to respond to your questions. My opinion will probably be different than many other vegetarian/vegans.

I personally don't understand exactly the comparison with animals and plants. We can't live well if we were to avoid hurting plants. But I do think plants and bugs deserve amount of respect despite their lack of intelligence and awareness. Like a bug to me has as much as right to live a life since it is something we only get a chance at once. If it ends abruptly, because it "bothered" you and not due to it being a hinder to your ability to live then it is immoral to kill. I think our actions should go according to what is necessary for us to do. So if we kill this bug for some spontaneous reason that is unrelated to our survival, I would see it as something wrong since this action had no importance to do so. However this would be different if this bug created a possibility to spread a disease or threaten our lives. If that last situation was the circumstance then I don't see taking away its life as something bad. Because taking life was then done in order to protect yourself.

The same logic can be applied to animals and plants too. If this killing cannot be avoided and you need it for your survival, I don't condone it. If another human being needs an animal to survive, thats how it should be. The plants belong to this situation for those who decided not to eat animal based food. If you cannot eat plants then how are you supposed to survive :p. Comparing an animal to a plant becomes absurd also in this reason to me.

However in this modern society today with our technology and methods we have new alternatives. We don't have to rely on animals primarily in order to survive. I am thankful for having that opportunity and luxury. To kill animals in order to survive doesn't hold up so well in these situations.

In simpler terms. Yes it is easier to sympathize and care about beings with emotions, but I do believe we should respect and avoid taking the lives of plants/bugs in ways that has no hindrance to our existence. Like you shouldn't smite this bug because it "bothers" you, or you shouldn't cut this tree because it ruins your "magnificent" view.

To answer the second question about if I would mind using animals in order for other humans to survive, I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as it is the only means of survival.
 
storafötter said:
People will look differently at these things, but here is my effort to respond to your questions. My opinion will probably be different than many other vegetarian/vegans.

I personally don't understand exactly the comparison with animals and plants. We can't live well if we were to avoid hurting plants. But I do think plants and bugs deserve amount of respect despite their lack of intelligence and awareness. Like a bug to me has as much as right to live a life since it is something we only get a chance at once. If it ends abruptly, because it "bothered" you and not due to it being a hinder to your ability to live then it is immoral to kill. I think our actions should go according to what is necessary for us to do. So if we kill this bug for some spontaneous reason that is unrelated to our survival, I would see it as something wrong since this action had no importance to do so. However this would be different if this bug created a possibility to spread a disease or threaten our lives. If that last situation was the circumstance then I don't see taking away its life as something bad. Because taking life was then done in order to protect yourself.

The same logic can be applied to animals and plants too. If this killing cannot be avoided and you need it for your survival, I don't condone it. If another human being needs an animal to survive, thats how it should be. The plants belong to this situation for those who decided not to eat animal based food. If you cannot eat plants then how are you supposed to survive :p. Comparing an animal to a plant becomes absurd also in this reason to me.

However in this modern society today with our technology and methods we have new alternatives. We don't have to rely on animals primarily in order to survive. I am thankful for having that opportunity and luxury. To kill animals in order to survive doesn't hold up so well in these situations.

In simpler terms. Yes it is easier to sympathize and care about beings with emotions, but I do believe we should respect and avoid taking the lives of plants/bugs in ways that has no hindrance to our existence. Like you shouldn't smite this bug because it "bothers" you, or you shouldn't cut this tree because it ruins your "magnificent" view.

To answer the second question about if I would mind using animals in order for other humans to survive, I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as it is the only means of survival.

You're more or less echoing my thoughts on it.
 
HappyBivouac said:
You're more or less echoing my thoughts on it.

Good to hear that I was understandable :)

One thing I have been meaning to ask those who are Vegans. What do you think of people wearing Vintage Wool/Fur/Leather?
This might sound absurd to others that people would condone used or vintage clothes, but it actually has some arguments towards that. One of them is that wearing such will give a wrong statement or influence. An outsider will not know that you might have a certain principle when it comes to fur/wool/leather. Such as you will not wear anything related to the modern industry (on going suffering). When you see someone wearing such, it will give others the idea that your saying it is OK to support this suffering. You will be promoting these clothes (even unintended) in that regard as you are fine with wearing it.

Personally I think it is a bit of a dilemma. However if it boils into actual suffering and not some sort of symbolic violence. I don't condone people wearing either wool,fur, leather that has suffered 20 years ago. My reason for this is that resources should be used and not thrown away. Make something positive out of what is there and give it a new value. If we were to replace everything usable we would cause more harm to the environment and create more waste. I would hate to see it boil to the last thing.

I wear Vintage Woolen jackets (it is actually hard to find the opposite pre 70s). However I would not feel so well if I was wearing old leather or fur. This isn't necessary a contradiction, but more the fact I don't feel comfortable to do so. So if someone wears something old, well aware that is not part of this modern suffering I think it is more positive than to make new clothes. Reusing should always come first.
 
Woah, what great op. Seems like this will be very helpful down the line. Thanks a lot, guys.
I'm a vegetarian for almost a week now and so far I didn't notice any changes in my health or energy level or whatever..
However I noticed that tofu is very filling. I can eat a meal consisting of 200g (7oz) fried tofu, some rice and different vegetable side dishes (Korean style) at around 3 p.m. and I don't feel any hunger until I go to bed (at around 2 a.m.) - so that's really new for me.
I still eat some fruit in the evening, but only because it's sort of a habit.

Thug Veg life my green bros! :p
 
Shanadeus said:
When nutritional adequacy is almost impossible I'm not so sure if it's a viable diet.

It isn't viable. Despite how passionate I can be I would never go that far to sacrifice my health.

Phantast2k said:
Woah, what great op. Seems like this will be very helpful down the line. Thanks a lot, guys.
I'm a vegetarian for almost a week now and so far I didn't notice any changes in my health or energy level or whatever..
However I noticed that tofu is very filling. I can eat a meal consisting of 200g (7oz) fried tofu, some rice and different vegetable side dishes (Korean style) at around 3 p.m. and I don't feel any hunger until I go to bed (at around 2 a.m.) - so that's really new for me.
I still eat some fruit in the evening, but only because it's sort of a habit.

Thug Veg life my green bros! :p


I peeked at the thread you made, I thought it was fascinating how some video made you change. Glad to hear how its working so well and all.
 
HappyBivouac said:
Some silly lofty philosophical questions for the vegetarians & vegans:

1) Vegetarianism/veganism seems to be mostly, though not entirely, founded on the notion that killing a sentient being (animal) to take in its life energy for one's own is more morally reprehensible than killing a non-sentient being (plant) to take in its life energy for one's own. Do you acknowledge that is notion is entirely a self-serving, self-important one? I believe that we only care more about sentient beings because it's easier for us to empathize with them. Actually if you think about it, plants are the most morally-pristine of all living beings. Carnivores/Omnivores kill and eat sentient beings, Herbivores kill and eat non-sentient beings, and plants live on energy from sources that aren't already living.

2) This one if even more out there and is pretty unrealistic, so you don't have to answer it, but bonus points if you do! If there were some sort of global effort to use factory farming, including not-torture levels of inhumane treatment but still not the ideal conditions for farm animals, that was guaranteed to give every starving person on the planet a meal a day, would you support this cause?

I love vegetarian food and have reduced my meat intake drastically in the past several years. This is the sort of stuff I would ask even if I were to go full-on vegetarian. If any of you find it horribly offensive I can remove it.


I'm not sure what you're getting at in your first question. It seems to me that your implying a double standard: vegetarians shun eating one life form over another. If I'm misconstruing you please correct me.

Plants are biological organisms granted, but they do not have central nervous systems, and they do not feel pain. That's my perspective regarding your first question.

As for your second one, I'd have to read more into it. But I do know there are currently experiments to create meat from a single animal cell, perhaps this would be a topic of interest to you.

http://www.physorg.com/news182779099.html
 
state-of-the-art said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at in your first question. It seems to me that your implying a double standard: vegetarians shun eating one life form over another. If I'm misconstruing you please correct me.

Plants are biological organisms granted, but they do not have central nervous systems, and they do not feel pain. That's my perspective regarding your first question.

As for your second one, I'd have to read more into it. But I do know there are currently experiments to create meat from a single animal cell, perhaps this would be a topic of interest to you.

http://www.physorg.com/news182779099.html
"To produce meat at an industrial scale, we will need very large bioreactors, like those used to make vaccines or pasteurized milk," said Matheny. He thought lab-produced meat might be on the market within the next few years, while Post said it could take about a decade.

would totally buy that stuff. meat without any harm to anymals or environment. hell yeah
 

KidDork

Member
I'm curious how many people here came to vegetarianism via Buddhism. I am not a practicing Buddhist, but when I looked into it, I found that many of the reasons I became a vegetarian were echoed in the Buddhist faith. The concept of compassion, the urge not to hurt another being, it was all there. Granted, when I looked deeper into the faith, I realized it wasn't for me, but the outlook was one I was already cultivating.
 

kiunchbb

www.dictionary.com
Wow finally a vegetarian thread.

I used to be a great cook before I became a vegetarian, now I just gave up on cooking.

I know I can try to learn how to make some great vegetarian meal, but I don't want to spent too much time cooking. I usually just buy those "fake meat" that made with soy and other material, and cook them like I did with meat. They have amazing selection now and the taste are getting better and better due to more people in Asia becoming vegetarian. I recommend going to some Asia super market, if you live in Los Angeles, most of them will alway have a vegetarian section.
 
kiunchbb said:
Wow finally a vegetarian thread.

I used to be a great cook before I became a vegetarian, now I just gave up on cooking.

I know I can try to learn how to make some great vegetarian meal, but I don't want to spent too much time cooking. I usually just buy those "fake meat" that made with soy and other material, and cook them like I did with meat. They have amazing selection now and the taste are getting better and better due to more people in Asia becoming vegetarian. I recommend going to some Asia super market, if you live in Los Angeles, most of them will alway have a vegetarian section.

i think the main problem is that most people's mindset is not flexible enough to get rid of the "i need something like meat" mentality.
once you get rid of that it is easier to think of great menus without meat or meat substitutes.
 

hom3land

Member
.GqueB. said:


Not sure how many of you are familiar with Quinoa but my gf recently got me into it. Its considered a super food. Extremely delicious when prepared correctly.


Just wanted to thank you for posting that recipe. My wife and I made it twice already and its definitely a keeper.
 
wow shanadeus that cauliflower pizza crust looks great. will try that out once i am at my parent's place next week. i also plan to make some seitan for the first time then.
 

Daigoro

Member
good job on the thread. seems pretty well managed so far.

im not part of some radical group of vegans (lol), but i will say that those vegetarians among you who do this for ethical reasons must strongly consider going all the way and becoming vegan.

it is not hard, complicated, or expensive. but it is the morally correct thing to do.

i was a vegetarian for years before i made the switch, but during that time it was always in the back of my mind. hell it took me 20+ years of eating meat at every single meal before i flipped the switch and even considered vegetarianism. then another 4-5 years before i became vegan.

it is the logical next step. it is in no way radical. it makes sense if you really put in the effort to think about it. so please do think about it.

this guy knows his shit: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/

•Mission Statement
The mission of this website is to provide a clear statement of an approach to animal rights that (1) promotes the abolition of animal exploitation and rejects the regulation of animal exploitation; (2) is based only on animal sentience and no other cognitive characteristic, (3) regards veganism as the moral baseline of the animal rights position; and (4) rejects all violence and promotes activism in the form of creative, non-violent vegan education.

good luck everyone!
 

Alucrid

Banned
Shanadeus said:
I have looked at the possibility of becoming vegan but the problem is that my girlfriend whom I eat with the majority of the time need to eat egg and milk for health reasons.
While eggs can be covered by just keeping a duck or a hen as a pet it's pretty hard to get milk without supporting a cruel industry.

With that said I am looking into the vegan diet and ways one can safely replace milk and eggs.

I would find going vegan impossible. I like my leather too much.
 

Poona

Member
Just thought I'd mention that the reference to Earthlings in the OP isn't really by PETA. It is Nation Earth and the official website for Earthlings (where you can also view it online for free or purchase the DVD can be seen here):

http://www.earthlings.com

Earl Cazone said:
never eating traditional pizza with cheese? no way. on the other hand, there are cheese alternatives. But lets see what the future brings.

I believe there is a great option if you're in the US. Daiya! I have heard so many positive reviews on it:

http://www.daiyafoods.com

I wish I could get it myself but I don't think it is available in Australia yet. When wanting to use an alternative to cheese made from dairy, I'll get Cheezly:

http://www.redwoodfoods.es/cheezly.php

Or Tofutti slices:

http://www.tofutti.com/cheese.shtml

Other times I have made a cheese sauce using savory yeast flakes/nutritional yeast. There are various recipes around the internet to try with that. They can be sometimes found on the back of the savory yeast flakes packaging themselves even.

Earl Cazone said:
so I have two questions for

Vegetarians and Vegans: Do you kill mosquitoes?

Vegans: Do you eat honey?

1. No.. to be honest I don't really have much of a problem with them. Moths sometimes yes though if they get inside the house, and I'll just place a jar over the top of them when they land and a card underneath and release them outside. The same thing with spiders at times.

2. No, I don't. I figured since I don't consume other products that are obtained from some creature of sorts, I might as well stop having that and leave the 'bee vomit' to the bees.
 

.GqueB.

Banned
Shanadeus said:




My girlfriend and I make this ALL the time and its ridiculously good.


Earl Cazone said:
so I have two questions for

Vegetarians and Vegans: Do you kill mosquitoes?

Vegans: Do you eat honey?
Why do you ask?
 
.GqueB. said:
Why do you ask?

Even before becomig vegetarian, I never killed any animal myself, I never thought that my annoyance was more worth than their life.

I have a friend who is vegan and pretty strict about what he buys and eats etc. but he has no problem of killing mosquitoes. I never understood that but am interested how others deal with it
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
I'm a big meat eater, but also eat a ton of veggies (vastly preferring veggies to stuff like starches or dairy). Unfortunately, the "Recipe" part of the OP, which I'd be most interested in, is all images with subsequent links if you click on the images. Of course... the image host is blocked via my company's firewall. Would it be possible to update the OP with text links to the recipes in question?
 
djtiesto said:
I'm a big meat eater, but also eat a ton of veggies (vastly preferring veggies to stuff like starches or dairy). Unfortunately, the "Recipe" part of the OP, which I'd be most interested in, is all images with subsequent links if you click on the images. Of course... the image host is blocked via my company's firewall. Would it be possible to update the OP with text links to the recipes in question?

Added textlinks below the pictures
 

xbhaskarx

Member
Earl Cazone said:
Even before becomig vegetarian, I never killed any animal myself, I never thought that my annoyance was more worth than their life.

I have a friend who is vegan and pretty strict about what he buys and eats etc. but he has no problem of killing mosquitoes. I never understood that but am interested how others deal with it

Actually you have killed plenty of animals, there are animals living on you right now (mites, etc.). I assume you do things like bathe yourself, walk around, and not lie perfectly still at all times.

I'm vegan but I'll kill flies or mosquitoes because they are nasty disease carrying creatures. I'd do the same to ticks if I ever had to deal with one. Basically any animal (big or small) that presents some sort of threat (big or small) is fair game.
 
xbhaskarx said:
Actually you have killed plenty of animals, there are animals living on you right now (mites, etc.). I assume you do things like bathe yourself, walk around, and not lie perfectly still at all times.

I'm vegan but I'll kill flies or mosquitoes because they are nasty disease carrying creatures. I'd do the same to ticks if I ever had to deal with one. Basically any animal (big or small) that presents some sort of threat (big or small) is fair game.

Pretty much. Cows on farms don't regularly kill people, Mosquitos do.
 

-_-

Banned
Can any one suggest a good mock meat/veggie patty?

I loathe Tofurkey, Morning Star, or Boca, I just can't eat that stuff because two taste like plastic and another tastes like a hockey puck. I'm also not particularly fond of Dr. Praegers.

What I do love is Trader Joe's Masala Veggie Patties, soy chorizo and soy breakfast Sausage and Gardein mock chicken strips (so expensive ): )
 
Another Vegan here and just to make it even more fun I'm about 90% wheat free as well (beer and the occasional soya sauce creep in), looking forward to hopefully some great recipes popping up in this thread.
 

ameratsu

Member
While I'm not vegetarian, I have drastically reduced my meat intake over the last two years. I still enjoy meat a few times a week, but I am in better physical shape, my grocery bills have went down, and I have become a better cook by thinking about what I eat more closely.
 
ameratsu said:
While I'm not vegetarian, I have drastically reduced my meat intake over the last two years. I still enjoy meat a few times a week, but I am in better physical shape, my grocery bills have went down, and I have become a better cook by thinking about what I eat more closely.

this is exactly what i experienced. I eat stuff I would have never considered because my thinking was pretty limited towards stuff I never tried to like. especially paprika comes to my mind, I never even considered liking it, because I never liked veggies. When I switched to a mostly vegetarian diet, I changed how to think about food and now eat more varied than ever before
 
Normally I'm not a fan of the fake meats, but I have to recommend these:



I thought I'd never get to have chicken tenders again, but then I tried these. Most fake chicken is bullshit, but these are great.
 
Shanadeus said:
Rise from your grave.
I have roughly half a year worth of vegetarian recipes and posts.

What do you fellow vegetarians (and vegans) whip together when you want a quick meal?
For me, it's stir fry noodles (ex: quickly wok your vegetable, throw in noodles boiled for 2-3 minutes and add soy sauce) and simple pasta dishes (ex: boil pasta, fry veggies and add crushed tomatoes - add in the boiled pasta and serve)
Pasta with a tomato sauce, or oil and garlic. Easy, cheap and delicious. Or eggs (scrambled, poached, omelette are my favourites).
 

Slappers Only

Junior Member
kame-sennin said:
Normally I'm not a fan of the fake meats, but I have to recommend these:



I thought I'd never get to have chicken tenders again, but then I tried these. Most fake chicken is bullshit, but these are great.
I really like those ones as well, but have you tried the Morning Star chicken nuggets? They taste great alone, and they're my vehicle of choice for kickass buffalo sauces.



Shanadeus said:
Rise from your grave.
I have roughly half a year worth of vegetarian recipes and posts.

What do you fellow vegetarians (and vegans) whip together when you want a quick meal?
For me, it's stir fry noodles (ex: quickly wok your vegetable, throw in noodles boiled for 2-3 minutes and add soy sauce) and simple pasta dishes (ex: boil pasta, fry veggies and add crushed tomatoes - add in the boiled pasta and serve)
Same here, except I get Trader Joe's instant brown rice instead of noodles. A shitload of fresh broccoli, cabbage, onion, and peas, and I have some of the best stir fry in about 10 minutes.
 

Bentendo

Member
Slappers Only said:
I really like those ones as well, but have you tried the Morning Star chicken nuggets? They taste great alone, and they're my vehicle of choice for kickass buffalo sauces.


I cannot recommend Morning Star products enough. Their bean burgers and ribs are amazing. I go through several Morning Star chicken nuggets a month.
 
Earl Cazone said:
I have a friend who is vegan and pretty strict about what he buys and eats etc. but he has no problem of killing mosquitoes. I never understood that but am interested how others deal with it
Insects are pretty low on the ladders of pain capacity and intelligence. Also, you can't just chuck them outside like you would with a mouse or snake that annoys you.
I don't kill them for no reason, but I'll be damned if I'll let myself be stung by a mosquito or suffer a moth infestation in my cereals.
I ain't no goddamn hippie just 'cause I'm (mostly) vegetarian!
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Shanadeus said:
Guess the trick is what marinade you use and how long you keep them in the juice.

What firmness of tofu are you using?
 

darkside31337

Tomodachi wa Mahou
Bentendo said:
I cannot recommend Morning Star products enough. Their bean burgers and ribs are amazing. I go through several Morning Star chicken nuggets a month.

Yep!

I like their meat crumbles a lot too, they taste a lot like the real thing, I think. Not really sure what meat tastes like anymore as I've been a vegetarian for close to 3 years now. Either way I love them.

The nuggets are definitely the best though.

Not really a fan of Gardein, everything I've tried just tastes off. Morning Star is definitely my favorite for substitute meats from the brands that I've tried.
 

Dunk#7

Member
I have a question for all of the vegans that avoid meat because of the animal cruelty factor.

Do you avoid all of these products?

Serious question because I do not think many people realize how much stuff is made from animals.

 
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