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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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zephervack

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As someone trying to get the best image possible out of a PS1 to a CRT (NTSC), what should I do??

Right now Im using an S-Video Cable, or PS2 with component cables, but I really want to use PS1 hardware.

I dont have a TV with SCART, so can I just buy a RGB cable for PS1/PS2 and a SCART to Component converter? are all converters the same?
 

PumpkinSpice

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Aug 27, 2013
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As someone trying to get the best image possible out of a PS1 to a CRT (NTSC), what should I do??

Right now Im using an S-Video Cable, or PS2 with component cables, but I really want to use PS1 hardware.

I dont have a TV with SCART, so can I just buy a RGB cable for PS1/PS2 and a SCART to Component converter? are all converters the same?

S-Video works on PS1 hardware.

You could do RGB as well and do a converter. It'd be an improvement for sure, a bit sharper and better color, about equivalent to the difference between PS1-on-PS2 over s-video vs component.

If you're OK with how it looks over s-video now it would certainly be easier to stick with that unless you want to get SCART for other stuff. Plus I've noticed cheaper RGB cables can have audio noise issues that you don't see over s-video due to the encoding.
 

InfiniteCombo

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Plus I've noticed cheaper RGB cables can have audio noise issues that you don't see over s-video due to the encoding.

Quoted for truth.

I recently bought a cheap (~ $10) SCART cable for my model 2 Genesis, and the audio noise issue is so prevalent, I'm thinking I have to toss that cable and get a new one.
 

Timu

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I added to the notes that different cables are needed for model 1 and 2, and like SNES PAL vs NTSC. I didn't go into detail about what those cable differences need to be just that there are different ones.

Reference guide 1.5.2 Beta

This is a nice list!!! I do this for all my consoles!!!
 

slammer

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Hey guys, some weeks ago I've seen a good example where someone compares Nearest Neighbor scaling with bilinear scaling (I think). There were screenshots of different games. I can't find that post anymore, but I'm not sure whether or not I've seen that on GAF for that matter :p Maybe someone could link to it. Thanks :)
 

Laevateinn

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Hey guys, some weeks ago I've seen a good example where someone compares Nearest Neighbor scaling with bilinear scaling (I think). There were screenshots of different games. I can't find that post anymore, but I'm not sure whether or not I've seen that on GAF for that matter :p Maybe someone could link to it. Thanks :)

Here's what I found by searching bilinear vs nearest neighbor on google image search.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=99045014&postcount=72

Conceptually, it's pretty easy. With nearest neighbor, you take a 240p (or whatever size) image and reproduce pixels so that it fills up the appropriate size image you are scaling it to. Bilinear tries to approximate a linear fit (think: y = mx + b) of what the color should be between the pixels to smooth out the image.

While I think all scaling is blasphemy, if you're going for a more blocky pixellated feel, nearest neighbor makes more sense in my opinion.
 

Mega

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^That bilinear example is an exaggeration (the effect is applied too strong for no reason). I'll post the example I put together in PS of the kinds of blurring you may get when upscaling on a display that applies filtering. On the top left you can see a similar exaggerated example from the Internet. (I'm aware X isn't on NES, but it's a nice moderately large and familiar sprite and the original intent was to compare to the top-left Internet pic).


Wait, why is all scaling blasphemy? It's absolutely necessary unless we go back to CRT as the standard and it can have great results.
 

slammer

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Thanks guys. Although I was looking for different pictures, those are good as well :)
I'd really like to have an option. For example I bought the Eizo FS2735. I intend to use this monitor (besides PC gaming) for my Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI once the mods arrive at my place. Unfortunately it doesn't do integer scaling, only bilinear (the EIZO support told me, integer would look horrible, well I strongly disagree with that at least for pixel art, but yeah...).
It's a shame that most displays won't give you an option.
 

Laevateinn

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^That bilinear example is an exaggeration (the effect is applied too strong for no reason). I'll post the example I put together in PS of the kinds of blurring you may get when upscaling on a display that applies filtering. On the top left you can see a similar exaggerated example from the Internet. (I'm aware X isn't on NES, but it's a nice moderately large and familiar sprite and the original intent was to compare to the top-left Internet pic).



Wait, why is all scaling blasphemy? It's absolutely necessary unless we go back to CRT as the standard and it can have great results.

Because CRTs forever brother :)

 
Mar 1, 2010
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Thanks guys. Although I was looking for different pictures, those are good as well :)
I'd really like to have an option. For example I bought the Eizo FS2735. I intend to use this monitor (besides PC gaming) for my Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI once the mods arrive at my place. Unfortunately it doesn't do integer scaling, only bilinear (the EIZO support told me, integer would look horrible, well I strongly disagree with pixel art, but yeah...).
It's a shame that most displays won't give you an option.
Interesting, because I have an old EIZO monitor that does do integer scaling!

I use it with my Atari ST at low resolutions and it scales up perfect chunky pixels.
It has a "smoothing" setting that controls how much filtering is done on a resized image (five stages of soft to sharp)

EIZO FlexScan L565 17" (yes, not a CRT)
http://www.eizoglobal.com/support/db/files/manuals/umeng/l565um.pdf

 

Mega

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Oct 31, 2007
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Thanks guys. Although I was looking for different pictures, those are good as well :)
I'd really like to have an option. For example I bought the Eizo FS2735. I intend to use this monitor (besides PC gaming) for my Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI once the mods arrive at my place. Unfortunately it doesn't do integer scaling, only bilinear (the EIZO support told me, integer would look horrible, well I strongly disagree with pixel art, but yeah...).
It's a shame that most displays won't give you an option.

Any display with a built-in scaler can do an integer scale depending on the res of the source. Bilinear and nearest neighbor are the types of scaling. All TVs and probably all monitors do bilinear scaling for the reasons the Eizo rep probably explained. It looks good for everything except old sprite-based games.

The Hi-Def and Ultra HDMI mods do a nearest neighbor integer scale up to 1080p. My advice? Pick up a decent low lag 1080p monitor if you want the sharpest visuals (1440p and 4k displays will do additional scaling and filtering).
 

Peltz

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Apr 26, 2014
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Because CRTs forever brother :)

But what about the children? Or our children's children? Or our children's children's children?

They're going to grow up without any CRTs at all!!!
(and likely under water as well due to global warming).
 
Jun 18, 2013
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Any thoughts on the uber Scart switcher on Assembler? I want to order two but the price cuts deep. I notice no visual degradation with my current setup and the audio issues won't be cured with new switchers
 

slammer

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Any display with a built-in scaler can do an integer scale depending on the res of the source. Bilinear and nearest neighbor are the types of scaling. All TVs and probably all monitors do bilinear scaling for the reasons the Eizo rep probably explained. It looks good for everything except old sprite-based games.

The Hi-Def and Ultra HDMI mods do a nearest neighbor integer scale up to 1080p. My advice? Pick up a decent low lag 1080p monitor if you want the sharpest visuals (1440p and 4k displays will do additional scaling and filtering).

I know that they can ;) I would have loved to to 720p on the Hi-Def NES for example and integer scale it to 1440p. But it is what it is. I guess it wouldn't be so hard for Eizo to implement it into the firmware. But I'll try how it looks like. Or I just play on my Panasonic Plasma (VT60). ^^
 

televator

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240p is the same as 480i except it you don't send a pulse every other field telling the crt gun to shift down slightly. That's the only difference.

I think it's down to how they control the graphics chips. If the chip itself supports the 240p output mode, they would need the display "driver" to tell it to do that. If there was enough control over Wii U system software that that could be triggered then maybe it could do 240p.

I imagine the reason they didn't do it in the first place is that too many TVs hate 240p over component and completely reject it. Rather than deal with support calls, just tear it out completely, and avoid some QA work while you're at it.

The Xbox is also incapable of doing 240p. The reason? The GPU just doesn't support it. So yeah, I suspect you are right about WiiU.

Edit: If upscaling is blasphemy, then call me the mother fucking light bringer. lol
 

Fuzzy

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Jan 11, 2005
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superg said:
JP21 is still on 10 units and honestly I don't see how this can go further.
I will be refunding all JP21 orders this Saturday and it's likely that I'll cutoff SCART pre-orders this Sunday (every JP21 user will still be able to pre-order SCART switch)
Wow, there won't be a JP21 one this time.
 

TeaJay

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I can't believe there's still no good, accessible options for live streaming / capturing RGB. All we have are capture cards that may or may not be available (and cost a fortune). Composite gets to stream on Elgato which is a lot easier.
 

Timu

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I can't believe there's still no good, accessible options for live streaming / capturing RGB. All we have are capture cards that may or may not be available (and cost a fortune). Composite gets to stream on Elgato which is a lot easier.
To be fair, you can get a capture card that costs 150 bucks that captures RGB. Most Startech capture cards capture RGB as well.

Elgato treats 240p as 480i from what I read which isn't ideal.
 

TeaJay

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To be fair, you can get a capture card that costs 150 bucks that captures RGB. Most Startech capture cards capture RGB as well.

Elgato treats 240p as 480i from what I read which isn't ideal.

Can you link me some options? I have read a bit about Startech cards, but haven't found a good comparison on them.
 

Timu

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Can you link me some options? I have read a bit about Startech cards, but haven't found a good comparison on them.
Here's a few that does it, I own one and capture RGB from my consoles, from N64 to Saturn to SNES to Genesis and such.

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-PEXHDCAP2-High-Definition-PCIe-Capture/dp/B0189GYULG/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1475223700&sr=1-4&keywords=startech+capture+card

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-USB3HDCAP-Video-Capture-Device/dp/B00PC5HUA6/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1475223700&sr=1-1&keywords=startech+capture+card

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-High-definition-Component--Full-profile-Low-profile/dp/B00U8KSSRY/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1475223700&sr=1-2&keywords=startech+capture+card

And you may a Sync Strike as well, which I have, or something similar, for scart to vga(or scart to component). I do wonder if a scart to vga cable would work.
 

TeaJay

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So basically I need something to convert Scart to DVI so that the card understands it. Are you using a Sync strike and then running scart to it and then a VGA-DVI cable?
 

Khaz

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Yeah but upscalers help a lot though and you can record through them!!!

Not retro enough, you need to record on vhs ;)

serious question: have you considered using a DVD or HDD recorder with a Scart input? They could probably record an unaltered signal that you can then upscale using your preferred method on the computer.
 

Khaz

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hmmm This is one I'm not sure how to improve. Basically I'm making it in Google docs spreadsheet and screen shotting it, then cropping it down to just the chart. Any thoughts?

What about using a colour code like this one:

either use yellow as the mod colour and use separate lines for the different models, or add a fourth colour for the mods. Keep the comments in text below. Using text means you'll be able to synthesise differently, like instead of having "this mod is needed" in comments, you can have a separate section with all the links to all the mods. Besides, a lot of this information can be put in the dedicated console threads. A summarizing table is good, but you don't want too much info in it.
 

Galdelico

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So, according to VGP newsletter, the second batch of 500 OSSC units will be ready around mid-october, while the next wave will probably happen later next year.

Goodbye hopes to grab one on Christmas (unless someone - for some reason - may decide to sell theirs). :(
 

Mega

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I know that they can ;) I would have loved to to 720p on the Hi-Def NES for example and integer scale it to 1440p. But it is what it is. I guess it wouldn't be so hard for Eizo to implement it into the firmware. But I'll try how it looks like. Or I just play on my Panasonic Plasma (VT60). ^^

Okay, just clearing up a bit of confusion that seemed to be conflating integer scaling with nearest neighbor.

Also the Hi Def and Ultra HDMI mods have 720p modes, so you should be fine in regards to integer scaling on your 1440p monitor.
 

Shin Johnpv

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Well most columns could be narrower?

I wouldn't be able to easily screen capture it then. I think'll include a link to the google docs for mobile users.

What about using a colour code like this one:

either use yellow as the mod colour and use separate lines for the different models, or add a fourth colour for the mods. Keep the comments in text below. Using text means you'll be able to synthesise differently, like instead of having "this mod is needed" in comments, you can have a separate section with all the links to all the mods. Besides, a lot of this information can be put in the dedicated console threads. A summarizing table is good, but you don't want too much info in it.

That's a lot more info than I planned on providing. That takes it from a best av option modded/unmodded chart to every possible av connection and if it supports it. Not really what I was looking to do.

Aadding RGB capable classic PCs like the Atari ST and Amiga 500 to the list could be nice I guess?

Again I don't really know 8bit and 16bit computers, so if someone wants to put that together that would be great. I wouldn't even know where to begin with that stuff.
 
Nov 20, 2015
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So basically I need something to convert Scart to DVI so that the card understands it. Are you using a Sync strike and then running scart to it and then a VGA-DVI cable?

The Sync Strike will convert from SCART to VGA. The Startech USB3HDCAP itself looks like it comes with a DVI/VGA adapter, so you shouldn't need an additional converter/cable.

I'm jumping in on this config, too.

Bye bye, shit scaler.


Doesn't the Startech USB3HDCAP use the same components as the XRGB Mini? Is this the thing you can upgrade with the Micomsoft firmware?
 

Peagles

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That's a lot more info than I planned on providing. That takes it from a best av option modded/unmodded chart to every possible av connection and if it supports it. Not really what I was looking to do.

I think Khaz meant to take inspiration from this table's formatting in order to shrink your own table down to improve readability, not to simply replicate this table's information (no point anyway as it already exists).
 

KC-Slater

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So basically I need something to convert Scart to DVI so that the card understands it. Are you using a Sync strike and then running scart to it and then a VGA-DVI cable?

OSSC? Might be overkill for what you need to do, but depending on how much the Sync strike costs, it could be worthwhile considering you are getting a great scaler out of it as well.
 

Timu

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So basically I need something to convert Scart to DVI so that the card understands it. Are you using a Sync strike and then running scart to it and then a VGA-DVI cable?
I use the VGA cable. This is a cheaper alternative that does the exact same thing as the Sync Strike. Notice the CRT in the pic as well.=p

Not retro enough, you need to record on vhs ;)

serious question: have you considered using a DVD or HDD recorder with a Scart input? They could probably record an unaltered signal that you can then upscale using your preferred method on the computer.
I have not, but I thought of it at one point. However I tend to go mainly for direct connection, like I can even do PS1 games in 240p through component on the PS2 and such, and component being fed with 240p is rare so that's awesome. I typically use the Sync Strike for all RGB consoles though, modded even.

TBH the main console I use a upscaler on is the PS2 due to needing to deinterlace to get a good picture and 60FPS.

Doesn't the Startech USB3HDCAP use the same components as the XRGB Mini? Is this the thing you can upgrade with the Micomsoft firmware?
Well, you can use Micomsoft drivers on that Startech capture card at least, that's all I know about that.
 

Laevateinn

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Again I don't really know 8bit and 16bit computers, so if someone wants to put that together that would be great. I wouldn't even know where to begin with that stuff.

This is something I'm interested in so I can help you. I currently own a FM Towns, X68000, PC-98 and Atari XE. I plan on getting an MSX soon so it's become somewhat of an obsession for me :)

Are you just interested in AV options and moddability?
 

entremet

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Any of you guys picking up a NES/Famicom Mini?

Looks like Nintendo's emulation is back to original Wii VC levels--although no 240P support.
 

sixteen-bit

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Any of you guys picking up a NES/Famicom Mini?

Looks like Nintendo's emulation is back to original Wii VC levels--although no 240P support.

I'm on the fence about keeping my pre-order. I'd rather just have the controller alone for VC, but I haven't seen the pad-only for sale yet.
 

entremet

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FC Mini is so cute. I will probably die if I don't get one.

I'm on the fence about keeping my pre-order. I'd rather just have the controller alone for VC, but I haven't seen the pad-only for sale yet.

Kinda weird that Nintendo won't update the Wii U, a much more powerful system comparatively with the additions to the 60 dollar emulator box.

NES and N64 emulation are rather poor due to the darker palate.
 

Laevateinn

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Kinda weird that Nintendo won't update the Wii U, a much more powerful system comparatively with the additions to the 60 dollar emulator box.

NES and N64 emulation are rather poor due to the darker palate.

Honestly, I doubt I'll ever use it when I have a Twin Famicom and a PVM in the other room. I just want it. That's the power Nintendo has over me.
 

sixteen-bit

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Kinda weird that Nintendo won't update the Wii U, a much more powerful system comparatively with the additions to the 60 dollar emulator box.

NES and N64 emulation are rather poor due to the darker palate.

that WiiU palate is totally unpaletteable
 

PumpkinSpice

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Honestly, I doubt I'll ever use it when I have a Twin Famicom and a PVM in the other room. I just want it. That's the power Nintendo has over me.

I dunno. It's too expensive for an impulse buy. Definitely going to get 2x controllers for use with my Wii and Classic Controller USB adapter.

BTW if I see anyone say they got this + don't use it and then complain about NESRGB being too expensive I will come after you. It's like 80% the cost of the board. Yeah there's installing it too but come on.
 

Shin Johnpv

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I think Khaz meant to take inspiration from this table's formatting in order to shrink your own table down to improve readability, not to simply replicate this table's information (no point anyway as it already exists).

Ahhhh I totally misunderstood Khaz's post, sorry Khaz! Ahhh so basically color coded with notes, hmmm I could try something.

This is something I'm interested in so I can help you. I currently own a FM Towns, X68000, PC-98 and Atari XE. I plan on getting an MSX soon so it's become somewhat of an obsession for me :)

Are you just interested in AV options and moddability?

Basically just what is the default best AV it puts out stock and what is the best AV it puts out with a mod.
 

Shin Johnpv

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An attempt at a mobile friendly one but maybe it loses its readability.



Edit* just realized I left one of the boxes selected when I made the picture ignore that for now.
 

Mega

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^Need to update the Fami Twin portion.

http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/installation-famicomtwin/


The Sync Strike will convert from SCART to VGA. The Startech USB3HDCAP itself looks like it comes with a DVI/VGA adapter, so you shouldn't need an additional converter/cable.

I'm jumping in on this config, too.

Bye bye, shit scaler.

Doesn't the Startech USB3HDCAP use the same components as the XRGB Mini? Is this the thing you can upgrade with the Micomsoft firmware?

The USB3HDCAP is the same as the Micomsoft Xcapture-1 with no passthrough but at only half the price. I read here you don't need to use a syncstrike with it.
 
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