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News Event Game Dev Unreal Engine 5 Deep Dive on May 26th

assurdum

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The statues were a total of 16,000 million, 33 million each mate.







Now with the critical factors:






These precise details are missing in the new one, not so in-depth. Also the old one was rendering from 1440p instead of 1080p in the new one.
I have to admit. The last demo not seems absolutely outstanding as the first presentation on ps5. That's crazy considered they showed it on a console and now for every platform. You expect something miles ahead because you can see it finally on pc too and then you get... this. Not to say it's bad but I don't understand the hell it's happened. Overpromises Vs reality?
 
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IntentionalPun

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Cool ok, but the point still stands that the PS5 demo had a lot more on screen, and obviously the system has limited ram compared to a decent PC.

So ... Epic was telling the truth and Sony did actually build the necessary custom IO solution to enable this technology to work well on a limited system ... correct?

Yeah the fast I/O gets around the RAM limitations. Allows for a smaller cache, and more of your memory to be used for scene detail.

But if you have a ton of RAM, you can compensate for smaller I/O.

At the time of Epic's statements about the PS5, keep in mind that PC NVME drives were about half as fast as the highest end ones released just a few months later were.. which technically have some raw capabilities higher than the PS5 drive, although directstorage isn't out yet.. and they don't have custom decompression hardware. But there's little evidence Epic is really needing decompression hardware, since you can see that while the game is using a ton of GPU power (basically the entirety of a ~36TF GPU), it's not using a lot of CPU power (around 4-6%.)

It's the XSX that the PS5 could really outdo.. but.. you could always lower detail lol

And UE5 appears to be a GPU hog too... so, there is that.
 
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reksveks

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I have to admit. The last demo not seems absolutely impressive as the first presentation on ps5. That's crazy considered they showed it on a console and now on pc. You expect something miles ahead because pc and then you see this. Not to say it's bad but I don't understand why I'm not astonished as the first video revelation.
Expectations is a son of a bitch also these are two very different demos for two very different purposes
 
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Dr Bass

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Yeah the fast I/O gets around the RAM limitations. Allows for a smaller cache, and more of your memory to be used for scene detail.

But if you have a ton of RAM, you can compensate for smaller I/O.

At the time of Epic's statements about the PS5, keep in mind that PC NVME drives were about half as fast as the highest end ones released just a few months later were.. which technically have some raw capabilities higher than the PS5 drive, although directstorage isn't out yet.. and they don't have custom decompression hardware. But there's little evidence Epic is really needing decompression hardware, since you can see that while the game is using a ton of GPU power (basically the entirety of a ~36TF GPU), it's not using a lot of CPU power (around 4-6%.)

It's the XSX that the PS5 could really outdo.. but.. you could always lower detail lol

And UE5 appears to be a GPU hog too... so, there is that.
Bottom line, everything Sony and Epic stated was true, and people are using straw man arguments to try and talk it down for some reason.

UE5 is going to be great everywhere. It's just not an issue IMO.
 
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CuNi

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I have to admit. The last demo not seems absolutely outstanding as the first presentation on ps5. That's crazy considered they showed it on a console and now for every platform. You expect something miles ahead because you can see it finally on pc too and then you get... this. Not to say it's bad but I don't understand the hell it's happened. Overpromises Vs reality?

The first demo was about revealing the engine. It was supposed to amaze people and look good.
This was a deep dive. It was meant to be more technical.

If you compare both demos, you can see that everything shown in the second one was there to organically showcase a engine feature. The open world desert for streaming level chunks.
Large assets for Mega Assemblies. The Titan for Animation and Sound Generation. Dark World for Level Layers. Hell even the path that the Character took was designed to show off skeletal features and packages.

This was more tailored towards game developers that wanted to know more about the features and advanced UE5 brings to the table.
 

VFXVeteran

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The first demo was about revealing the engine. It was supposed to amaze people and look good.
This was a deep dive. It was meant to be more technical.

If you compare both demos, you can see that everything shown in the second one was there to organically showcase a engine feature. The open world desert for streaming level chunks.
Large assets for Mega Assemblies. The Titan for Animation and Sound Generation. Dark World for Level Layers. Hell even the path that the Character took was designed to show off skeletal features and packages.

This was more tailored towards game developers that wanted to know more about the features and advanced UE5 brings to the table.
And to add a more representation of what a game would look like in an open world. The world in this second one is drastically larger than the first demo and all of it is loaded in RAM on PC.
 
Jun 15, 2020
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I agree. Last year's demo was better. I thought this presentation will show that the same demo is playable on all platforms. But I guess not. I wonder why that is. Is it because they have to make the game playable not only on PS5 but also on series x and PC?

But that's not important, we have a good engine here. Look at those details. I can't wait for games made with this engine. Days Gone 2?
this is nonsense
The first demo was about revealing the engine. It was supposed to amaze people and look good.
This was a deep dive. It was meant to be more technical.

If you compare both demos, you can see that everything shown in the second one was there to organically showcase a engine feature. The open world desert for streaming level chunks.
Large assets for Mega Assemblies. The Titan for Animation and Sound Generation. Dark World for Level Layers. Hell even the path that the Character took was designed to show off skeletal features and packages.

This was more tailored towards game developers that wanted to know more about the features and advanced UE5 brings to the table.
this. some reactions in here are rediculous.

“see! only the ps5 could handle that first demo!”

bullshit. even on Epics own site it says its performs fully on both ps5 and xsx
 
Jan 21, 2019
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… and all of that will be all together $399-499 with an UHD Blu-Ray drive when? Because XSX and PS5 shipped November 2020, PS5 breaking even on HW in May already.

Of course you can build a PC with enough resources (and money), RAM specifically, to make at worst a giant initial load and then deal with a slower SSD for example. That is never really the point more than sounding like e-peen waving.
of course not at the price, PC’s do infinitely more than a console ever could. Workloads, gaming, game design, graphic design, video editing and so on. But both AMD and nVidia have IO Controllers that are capable of using DirectStorage among other tech that will bring them to PS5 levels. If not right now, then soon. The PS5 is unique for now, but not forever.
 
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CamHostage

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If you compare both demos, you can see that everything shown in the second one was there to organically showcase a engine feature. The open world desert for streaming level chunks. Large assets for Mega Assemblies. The Titan for Animation and Sound Generation. Dark World for Level Layers. Hell even the path that the Character took was designed to show off skeletal features and packages.

I'm not sure I got enough to understand in the clip, does anybody have a good understanding of Level Layers?

I get the demo of it: there's the usual sunlit world of regular rocks and boulders, then you enter the "Dark World' and it switches layers and you've got darkness and cragged fantasy rocks and gateways and such. It's "two layers" of a world.



Problem was, it took a few seconds to transition layers. So, why make "Level Layers" if they're not part of the level that's already there than can be turned on/off at a rapid switch?

Usually if you needed to do a magical switch between areas in a game, you'd have both areas (or chunks of the areas) stored on the same map, and you'd just discretely move the character from one area to the similar-but-different-looking area. (The Arkham Asylum "Nightmare of Bruce Wayne" Scarecrow sequence does this, by switching the corridor you walk down several times so it looks more and more like Crime Alley. The Medium is all about this.) Or, you would use lighting and color or texture swaps to make the world seem different. Or you would assign some objects in the world to invisible unless triggered to put clutter or whatever where it wasn't.

Layers is kind of that, and kind of not, and I'm not sure what the full purpose of it is yet? It's not the "same" level landscape, they swap in totally different geometry and textures (they also completely replace the weather-modeled sky with a skybox.) And the speed of the transition is nowhere near instantaneous, 3 seconds at best (when you run this Layer transition for the first time, it can painfully take several minutes to bring in the Dark World.) So if it's not the same map layout, and it's not the same assets, and it's not an instantaneous swap where your character is in the same position with the same momentum/interactivity but the map is swapped underneath (not that it's hard to 'bamf' a character from one set to another in a game map if you had to,) then what does the "Level Layer" do?

I get that I'm thinking of this as a gamer. Layers have a development purpose, not necessarily for me the gamer. I could see Layer being really handy for iterating areas while constructing locations (I imagine that's its primary purpose.) It's also easier to have an area that has levels you can turn on and off when you're restaging an area for multiple purposes. (As an example, "Ok, this is my city map before the nuke, and this is my city with all the buildings converted to rubble and... oh crap, I forgot that I moved that bridge over there in the pre-rubble map, I've got to go back and match that up again...", that sort of thing. I'm not sure that this would fix the problem though, unless you joined the bridge and wrecked bridge actors together across layers?) And I guess being able to have whole layers toggleable with a button press is easier to work with than having chunks of map hidden and strewn all about your loaded level. I can think of ways that Layer can get you through development a little easier, but all the ways I'm thinking of have alternate approaches to them already.

Is it just that these two layer sets are so different and so massive that, in this particular case, you can't work with both at the same time (or play them instantaneously, if you're a gamer getting the new "Land of the Ancients" videogame...) unless you have an even more powerful rig than Epic Games or any tester has used so far?

(*To be less confusing though, the editing tool here is just called "Data Layer", not "Level Layers". It's Is Layers for anything in UE that's clustered into a scene that a designer would toggle in the same workspace. Kind of like having multiple browser tabs open, I guess?)
 
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VFXVeteran

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That's getting there!

What you see is importance sampling of an area light in a specular term (GGX at roughness near 0). For now, the code can't do anything other than rectangles and spheres because you can analytically evaluate those without having to sample the light source.
 
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Panajev2001a

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of course not at the price, PC’s do infinitely more than a console ever could. Workloads, gaming, game design, graphic design, video editing and so on. But both AMD and nVidia have IO Controllers that are capable of using DirectStorage among other tech that will bring them to PS5 levels. If not right now, then soon. The PS5 is unique for now, but not forever.
At some distant point in the future the average PC will have HW better than XSX and PS5 at around the same price is obvious… so?

Direct Storage is something not even in Beta right now on PC, PCI-E 5.0 NVME drives are far far in the horizon… all will come at some point. Are we discovering that fixed console specs are fixed?
 
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sinnergy

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I have to admit. The last demo not seems absolutely outstanding as the first presentation on ps5. That's crazy considered they showed it on a console and now for every platform. You expect something miles ahead because you can see it finally on pc too and then you get... this. Not to say it's bad but I don't understand the hell it's happened. Overpromises Vs reality?
More about, posters have no clue how this all works 🤣☺️
 
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At some distant point in the future the average PC will have HW better than XSX and PS5 at around the same price is obvious… so?

Direct Storage is something not even in Beta right now on PC, PCI-E 5.0 NVME drives are far far in the horizon… all will come at some point. Are we discovering that fixed console specs are fixed?
The end of the year and the beginning of next is not distant.
 
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Panajev2001a

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The end of the year and the beginning of next is not distant.
That is still quite some time away and for the first cut of it only… and still at a higher price point… and then you need software to make use of it which is held back by the number of users with such HW, etc… open platforms have their pros and their cons.
 
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MonarchJT

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At some distant point in the future the average PC will have HW better than XSX and PS5 at around the same price is obvious… so?

Direct Storage is something not even in Beta right now on PC, PCI-E 5.0 NVME drives are far far in the horizon… all will come at some point. Are we discovering that fixed console specs are fixed?

Marvell Announces First PCIe 5.0 NVMe SSD Controllers: Up To 14 GB/s


https://www.anandtech.com/show/16703/marvell-announces-first-pcie-50-nvme-ssd-controllers
 
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Panajev2001a

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LiquidRex

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Announcements are not something you can work with today or last year. You are proving that new HW still gets released… and :LOL:?

I do like how much HW they added to their SSD and Flash I/O controllers:

Vs.



🤔
I wonder is the PS5 IO unit protected by Sony (suprised if not) or will we see such tech integrated onto Motherboards in the future.
 
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Panajev2001a

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I wonder is the PS5 IO unit protected by Sony (suprised if not) or will we see such tech integrated onto Motherboards in the future.
I think the most special thing in things such as BCPACK decoder in XSX and the whole XVA, the PS5 I/O SoC + custom Flash controller, MacBook’s Touch Bar, etc… is that they do not worry about how a big open ecosystem may or may not embrace them and thus do not pour R&D into it based on potential adoption.

There is no reason why PC’s have no Kraken HW decoder for example or use HW zlib decoders like Xbox One and PS4 introduced or other similar HW accelerators… beyond SSD and motherboard manufacturers as well as CPU makers being worried about Windows making use of it or not, popular games and tools making use of it or not, etc… Or even will users feel the value add or just buy more RAM and bigger drives?

It is much much more difficult to introduce these kind of changes in PC’s and have them stick and even if you can make it then it generally takes a while.

What you are seeing above it is already one manufacturer moving in that direction though. Expect many to have less proprietary codecs and maybe some open standard developed instead unless MS gives it away for free with Windows.
 

muteZX

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I wonder is the PS5 IO unit protected by Sony (suprised if not) or will we see such tech integrated onto Motherboards in the future.

PS5 : SSD - /HW depackers/ - unified RAM .. next step .. SSD - L3 APU cache.
PC: SSD - main RAM - /CPU-GPU depacking wasting working cycles/ - VRAM

PC data travels for much longer, decimating buses, CPU/GPU.
 

Balducci30

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I’m interested in the application of this for filmmaking. So from what I understand you could technically go to a location (or multiple) - scan it, import it into the engine, then sort of previsualize the entire film through it? I’m sure that would take way too long but it does seem like this may be possible for the future do a totally virtual preproduction version of the movie

EDIT: like do they have a camera thing where you can choose what type of lens/focal length etc you’re using?
 
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I’m interested in the application of this for filmmaking. So from what I understand you could technically go to a location (or multiple) - scan it, import it into the engine, then sort of previsualize the entire film through it? I’m sure that would take way too long but it does seem like this may be possible for the future do a totally virtual preproduction version of the movie

EDIT: like do they have a camera thing where you can choose what type of lens/focal length etc you’re using?
Of course they have a cinematic camera with lens and focal length control. They have focus options of manual, fixed, or tracking. An unholy amount of rendering and post-process options.

Most famous of all "film" projects currently using Unreal is The Mandalorian. That universe is Unreal with a bunch of dudes in costumes in front of the screen.

IIRC, many years ago Steven Spielberg was directing and using Unreal in the same manner you describe, for camera movement pre-viz in a scene. I'll have to look up what movie. Maybe AI?
 
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Dolomite

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this is nonsense

this. some reactions in here are rediculous.

“see! only the ps5 could handle that first demo!”

bullshit. even on Epics own site it says its performs fully on both ps5 and xsx
/Thread
Pack it up on to the next one
 

Balducci30

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Of course they have a cinematic camera with lens and focal length control. They have focus options of manual, fixed, or tracking. An unholy amount of rendering and post-process options.

Most famous of all "film" projects currently using Unreal is The Mandalorian. That universe is Unreal with a bunch of dudes in costumes in front of the screen.

IIRC, many years ago Steven Spielberg was directing and using Unreal in the same manner you describe, for camera movement pre-viz in a scene. I'll have to look up what movie. Maybe AI?
That’s amazing, yeah I knew mandalorian used it for sets and stuff - but yeah basically I’m thinking shot listing/storyboarding using unreal since it’s faaaar better looking than any of the virtual storyboard software - and likely waay more accurate to how things will look. Especially if you can put on ray tracing or even lumen would work to get kind of an idea to what the lighting set up would be. It looks easier to use than maybe I’m giving it credit for but if it is relatively simple to import stuff and set shots up with metahuman characters I could see a great/accessible tool for indie filmmakers who don’t have the budget or time or crew to do a lot of stuff
 
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That’s amazing, yeah I knew mandalorian used it for sets and stuff - but yeah basically I’m thinking shot listing/storyboarding using unreal since it’s faaaar better looking than any of the virtual storyboard software - and likely waay more accurate to how things will look. Especially if you can put on ray tracing or even lumen would work to get kind of an idea to what the lighting set up would be. It looks easier to use than maybe I’m giving it credit for but if it is relatively simple to import stuff and set shots up with metahuman characters I could see a great/accessible tool for indie filmmakers who don’t have the budget or time or crew to do a lot of stuff
Yeah, I think that's more how Spielberg was using it, as opposed to green screen replacement like Mandolorian.

Unreal is a mix of both simplicity and extreme complexity. With the addition of Quixel Bridge and Metahuman creator you can easily import high-quality assets for pre-viz.

In the future, I could see Unreal being used by autuers in tandem with AI to create some amazing stuff that would usually take an army of people to produce.
 
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Negotiator101

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If you referring to that UE5 Demo from yesterday I believe nothing from Epic anymore. That demo must have been downgraded or otherwise tinkered with so that ordinary PCs can play it well..
I got it running yesterday on my system.
I have a Ryzen 1500x and a GTX1650SUPER and 16GB of Ram...

It was not running nice, like 10-15FPS and a few 0fps stutters but all together ot seemd not THAT demanding to me...

So I take the stance for now that this newly released demo has nothing to say about PS5s I/O capability..
I hope we hear something from the developers about the seemingly good performance on systems wich have nonexistent I/O in PS5 Terms..
Well who's to say what they showed on PS5 was real and genuine?
 

staticshock

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until it's released we can't compare it unless you think camera flyby over some rocks in editor is same thing as flyby with character on screen with destruction and fx with many multiple unique assets in way larger area is the same thing.


i'm not talking what can or can't you do in editor i'm talking about specific demo that was shown... i see rocks, cliffs and fireplace... other area has a bit more unique assets though even giant is made from same assets.
Can't tell what I'm more impressed with; is it Nanite or Lumen?! Both are insane technical achievements that will push devs to new heights of creativity.



Hello mate. There is a critically missing info about the frame budget, the first one had 20M per frame, something slightly more than 4:1 Polygon : Pixel ratio. Anyway, the old demo was just that, a stress test, the new one is what matters because it can easily be done within game budget.

I'm not interested in this discussion as it's restarting with each member and all that needed to be said was here:


And here:


I have a PC with Ryzen 7 2700x, Radeon VII 16GB HBM2 VRAM, 32GB RAM, 1TB 3.5GB/s NVMe m.2 SSD, and 2TB SATA3 SSD. Could try it out myself.
Will we ever see the UE5 flying sequence run on XSX and XSS for that matter...

In fact I'd like to also see it run on a PC and gaming laptop.
Cool ok, but the point still stands that the PS5 demo had a lot more on screen, and obviously the system has limited ram compared to a decent PC.

So ... Epic was telling the truth and Sony did actually build the necessary custom IO solution to enable this technology to work well on a limited system ... correct?
to confirm your theory we need to see PC running land of nanite flying part where IO gets above it's average usage i guess that's why that part was made to stress test PS5 SSD and not just same rocks placed at different angles in large area talking about latest demo, not saying it can't do it but wee need proof of that.
i suspect streaming tech between PS5 and PC in UE5 is totally different meaning PS5 streams everything behind FOV in very short time when needed(based on camera movement) pc streams levels in chunks based on distance between chunks which what we exactly saw dev explaining in new demo, meaning PS5 streaming is way more efficient not only faster.
also we need confirmation that PC runs UE5 demo at native 4K like you said because actually devs said it's close to 4K upscaled from 1080p which is not native.
You're a liar, really. The older demo that was crunching 1,000x more polygons to 20,000,000 polygons per frame was as intensive as playing fortnite on the GPU end. It's not a GPU thing.

The new demo must be like walking in the park for PS5. We need the official details of how much polygons are drawn (frame window polygon budget) before celebrating anything. But for true game enthusiasts this is a wonderful achievement, and the new one is a realistic goal for retail games at 1080p reconstructed to 4K.
This ....
Whilst the demo released today was impressive we already knew ue5 was gonna run and scale to pretty much any platform going unreal engine is one of the biggest multiplatform engines going, but as far as the ps5's demo is concerned nothing much has changed we'd need that actual demo running exact settings on all platforms to know anymore in regards to running it on other systems .
Where’s the “Lumen in the Land of Nanite” demo then? Why hasn’t it been released to the public? Lol, I love how you’re all like “I would trust the Unreal 5 devs over some forum member“ but when Tim Sweeney of all people said the laptop was playing a video of last year’s demo running on the PS5 and that last year's demo wouldn't have been possible without the breakthroughs Sony's made, “hE’S iN a mArKEtiNg dEaL WiTH sOnY!!!” Funny enough I didn’t see PlayStation posting/promoting anything about this on their social media last year when the demo was released, dumb move on their part I guess for a non-existent "mARkeTiNG dEaL."

The new “Valley of the Ancient” demo looks amazing on all the platforms it was shown on and I can’t wait for that to become a standard this gen, I just personally found last year’s demo a bit more impressive. I don't remember seeing people here saying that UE5 itself was exclusive to PS5 when Epic themselves literally said it was scalable all the way down to smartphones, people were CLEARLY talking about LAST YEAR'S tech demo, not the engine itself.

One of the posts you quoted to "pRoVe aLL tHEm NaYsAyERs wRoNG" talking about last year's tech demo:

You didn't even bother reading the post and as usual, you have no clue as to what you're even talking about. I might've missed it, but did they disclose the source polygon count difference between last year's demo and this demo and how many polygons were actually being rendered every frame? While both demos look great anyway, what I loved most about last year's "Lumen in the Land of Nanite" demo was the sheer geometric density and the ending part where the chick literally flies through all those structures while they're collapsing in real-time.

And for anyone wondering about the resolution of last year's demo:
There is a difference...
One think is the stream the assets from HDD/SDD on the fly.
Other is do a pre streaming to RAM and after do a stream to VRAM on the fly.

It probably has a load time to get the HDD/SSD data to RAM and after it runs without loading... that is why it requires that huge amount of RAM.
Here's what people are not grasping at the difference in each demo they are showing:

That time stamp when she's flying to her destination with all the assets being loaded instantly is akin to Ratchet and clank's use of it. SHow me in this new demo where that is happening? Character is in a arena built level which is literally explained by Unreal engine developer.
Read again why it was said.

Point was that a fly-by sequence like that won't be holding each and every high-quality asset in the memory, there is absolutely asset streaming happening from SSD to memory when she flies from point A to point B.

"There's been a bunch of misconception that the Lumen in the land of Nanite Demo doesn't work anymore or only runs on a PS5" - Epic Games Brian Karis (Creator of Nanite)
Also the entire Nanite data for the Lumen in the the land of nanite PS5 demo was only 6.14 GB.
Lastly Valley of the Ancient demo had more texture data than the PS5 Lumen in the land of nanite demo.

Here is Lumen in the land of Nanite running on Brian Karis PC (The creator of Nanite)

 
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Darius87

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Here is Lumen in the land of Nanite running on Brian Karis PC (The creator of Nanite)

is that suppose to show me something? this video adresess nothing i was talking about i don't really know why you qouting me with this video?
but we can now confirm that there's no deal between sony and epic PC guys can trust Tim and devs at epic now rather then some random experts telling how it is.
 

Panajev2001a

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Up to the day before “cannot take Epic at their word, they are paid off by Sony”. Next day, when the green smells what seems like blood: “look at what Epic Games is saying!!!!”.

Fine, we can take Epic at the word both times or neither unless we have a non fanboy warrior reason why not ;).
 
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sncvsrtoip

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David Jaffe said bend studio worked on days gone 2 moving from ue to decima engine. And we know now it will be new ip after cancelation of dg but it seems it will be on decima not ue5.
 

CamHostage

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I have to admit. The last demo not seems absolutely outstanding as the first presentation on ps5. That's crazy considered they showed it on a console and now for every platform. You expect something miles ahead because you can see it finally on pc too and then you get... this. Not to say it's bad but I don't understand the hell it's happened. Overpromises Vs reality?
Just different priorities and purposes. As mentioned better by others above, the first demo was was a very game'y demo of action and adventure, the second was a more general stress-test/play area of things developers would be interested in (albeit both were built to highlight very specific features of UE 4.2x & UE5 by using them in play.)

...With as much interest as there is in UE5, it would have been cool if Epic had been able to make like a Consumer Teaser of the two demos tied together (going through the portal would connect 2020 Demo to 2021 Demo's Dark World, though you would miss the campfire and the big Nanite landscape you can fly over with a navi) and released on gaming platforms (PC/PS5/X-S). I don't know if like a 40+GB demo of two minutes of heavily scripted "gameplay" would have been exciting or worth the download (or the server service for XBLA/PSN) just to advertise the engine rather than a real game, but I like when tech demos get out to the public (I still have the Killzone 2 Bullet teaser) and this one would have been a special event.
 
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