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News Event Game Dev Unreal Engine 5 Deep Dive on May 26th

onesvenus

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Do I need to post the pic and the actual post the pic is in.....

Are they getting exactly a 1:1 showing like the demo we saw today......
I don't know. I've been reading his posts in the other forum.
So yeah, with 4GB of RAM and rate-limiting his HDD to 125MB/s speed (which is sloooow) produces the results in the image.
With 4GB of RAM and SSD speeds he claims to get similar results to what we saw. I can't try it but it seems he is not the only one reporting that
 

PaintTinJr

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we realized ..
- the engine is literally not pulling stuff directly from the storage but preloading things.
- Superfast i/o can be usefull but seen how an superslow hdd run seem that a normal ssd with some spare ram will have no prob to mitigate the lack of alien tech i/o
- GPU are still the most important thing
- PC will run ue5 games better than any console
We'd have to see the other demo running exactly the same to backup those conclusions, because today's demo was less about nanite and lumen than the previous one, and was rendering at 1080p30 (from the opening info IIRC, but upscaled to 4K, unlike 1400p with upscale).

The original demo used all the UE5 systems in tandem and really stressed lumen hard by camera speed and internal lighting. today's presentation had a 4.5second loading screen, focused on lighting nanite geometry with sun light with animated cloud cover, and was mostly rendering two characters, that aren't nanite geometry (the character/boss), and the large boss cinema level asset, was so high above the floor and other nanite geometry the lighting interactions with any parts of the model that were nanite meshes were not possible (AFAIK).
 
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MonarchJT

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We'd have to see the other demo running exactly the same to backup those conclusions, because today's demo was less about nanite and lumen than the previous one, and was rendering at 1080p30 (from the opening info IIRC, but upscaled to 4K, unlike 1400p with upscale).

The original demo used all the UE5 systems in tandem and really stressed lumen hard by camera speed and internal lighting. today's presentation had a 4.5second loading screen, focused on lighting nanite geometry with sun light with animated cloud cover, and was mostly rendering two characters, that aren't nanite geometry (the character/boss), and the large boss cinema level asset, was so high above the floor and other nanite geometry the lighting interactions with any parts of the model that were nanite meshes were no possible.
I don't think Sony will ever allow that
 

elliot5

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We'd have to see the other demo running exactly the same to backup those conclusions, because today's demo was less about nanite and lumen than the previous one, and was rendering at 1080p30 (from the opening info IIRC, but upscaled to 4K, unlike 1400p with upscale).

The original demo used all the UE5 systems in tandem and really stressed lumen hard by camera speed and internal lighting. today's presentation had a 4.5second loading screen, focused on lighting nanite geometry with sun light with animated cloud cover, and was mostly rendering two characters, that aren't nanite geometry (the character/boss), and the large boss cinema level asset, was so high above the floor and other nanite geometry the lighting interactions with any parts of the model that were nanite meshes were not possible (AFAIK).
The boss elemental creature was made up of Nanite meshes attached to a skeletal rig.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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i saw you hid a post and run to your mama when they proved you wrong. so why are you still derailing the thread?

I'm not a parrot like you, everything needed to be said has already been said and backed by Epic devs. If you still wanna act like a kindergarten child and not read the materials shown to you then I really can't take you more than a troll. Ironically derailing the thread instead of constructive discussions then trying to pull a win out of his ass. :lollipop_tears_of_joy:
 

jroc74

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I don't know. I've been reading his posts in the other forum.
So yeah, with 4GB of RAM and rate-limiting his HDD to 125MB/s speed (which is sloooow) produces the results in the image.
With 4GB of RAM and SSD speeds he claims to get similar results to what we saw. I can't try it but it seems he is not the only one reporting that
Ok. From that same post on Resetera:
Well... I do wonder if the windows filecache is having an effect here. If there's enough RAM available and the files had been loaded due to a previous run, or editor run, or from a write-cache during installation, you might not be seeing what really happens when data has to come in off the hard drive.

I was seeing the same behaviour on low IO drives, but, when I reduced system RAM to <8GB free (should be no problem if the footprint is 3-4GB), and again used my lowest speed drive (125MB/s), this was the result after a bit of traversal:


With it taking double digit seconds to resolve to normal detail. The same drive was fine with more RAM free, even though the application itself wasn't using more than 3-4GB, so I can only assume the windows file cache was saving the day previously.

(125MB/s might be very low - if someone wants me to test another super-low-IO/RAM situation but with something better, let me know!)
They were talking about the clip I posted the PC specs for earlier, that I said looked fairly smooth but did have stuttering.


All I'm saying is....lets just wait for more results to come in.
 
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TheTechnician

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I said this a long long time ago when the SSD magic was all in the air. I remember it "when you stream in data into view and you are rendering the asset - the GPU becomes the bottleneck". I got shit for it from non-developers. We've come full circle.
Thing is though - even if this demo is running quite good on PC it has no authority over the general I/O Advancements in PS5 or Xbox Series ..

Take the best possible Example here:
New soon to be released Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart does things currently not possible on PC.
The unload everything what is not in view from ram and let the entire ram be used for Stuff the player sees in that moment is only possible with the sophisticated I/O we find in PS5 for the moment.

Theoretically it would be possible on a PC with lots of ram by just having all assets and textures be uncompressed.
But you would have install sizes of 1TB per Game.

And how good this demo is running even on Hdds makes be extremely suspicious about this demo .. it must be a somehow dumbed down version of the one from one year ago...
Or at least about its implications on Console I/O capabilities...
Its is not all smoke and mirrors you know..
Sony and cerny did spend quite the money to develope this system.
And their solution got praise industry wide.. it's not only Fanboys .
I say we wait a couple of days maybe epic explains abit more about this particular demo...
 

Bo_Hazem

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Man you just keep repeating this...

Stop it dude. You know the source assets have little to do with what is actually rendered.

You must not take things out of context, you're better than this. Read my posts, not the cut down posts from the trolls:

Old: 1440p, 100's of billions of triangles crunched down losslessly to 20M per frame (33.2ms window), literally what is in the fucking video said.

New: 1080p, 100's of millions of triangles (unknown frame budget) per frame (33.2ms window).

Got any more details? Share.

i5 10400f
16Gb ram
2060
SSD 1800mb/s



Nice slow motion.
 
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IntentionalPun

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You must not take things out of context, you're better than this. Read my posts, not the cut down posts from the trolls:

Old: 1440p, 100's of billions of triangles crunched down losslessly to 20M per frame (33.2ms window), literally what is in the fucking video said.

New: 1080p, 100's of millions of triangles (unknown frame budget) per frame (33.2ms window).

Got any more details? Share.
I quoted.. your post... you didn't mention any "crunched down losslessly" in that post. There is no troll involved... there is zero necessary context missing.

And where in the world are you getting that the demo shown today wasn't using insanely detailed assets that were crunched down? None of that is done on a PS5.. ever.. not for the past demo, or this demo.. it's done in the engine tools.. on a PC.

Come on man.. i did read your post.. it was terrible.
 
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ethomaz

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lh032

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This is why Neogaf is the best discussion forum, look at all these senior game developers, tech engineers we have here : )

Oh yea btw, grass still look like 2d objects
 
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Bo_Hazem

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I quoted.. your post... you didn't mention any "crunched down losslessly" in that post. There is no troll involved.

And where in the world are you getting that the demo shown today wasn't using insanely detailed assets that were crunched down?

Come on man.. i did read your post.. it was terrible.

Those are all the details shown. What is the frame budget in the new one? Unknown. All of those are the official dev talks from both short videos.
 

DForce

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I said this a long long time ago when the SSD magic was all in the air. I remember it "when you stream in data into view and you are rendering the asset - the GPU becomes the bottleneck". I got shit for it from non-developers. We've come full circle.
How was it all thin air when devs have confirmed it worked in their games?

You were also being dishonest last year when I asked you if the Spider-Man was running on a PS5, with and without an SSD, would the console with the SSD be able to stream higher quality textures and you told me no.


For some strange reason, you were so obsessed with PC that you continually tried to bring PC into the conversation.
 

IntentionalPun

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Those are all the details shown. What is the frame budget in the new one? Unknown. All of those are the official dev talks from both short videos.

The details are that Nanite converts insanely detailed models into losslessly scaled model in the game engine tools.. on a PC.. before the much smaller assets are then built into a game, that runs on maybe a console.

That's how Nanite works.. it would not work any differently from an engine tooling process for a game compiled for PC vs. PS5.

In neither scenario is the game itself ever seeing anywhere near those polygon details. Those assets would never exist on a PS5.
 
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DForce

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the point that you are hardly avoiding is that we know that at this point is clear that PC or xbox would have no problem to run PS5 demo...and that type of superfast i/o is not even close to be needed for ue5. now we can finally file this practice
The point of contention was that it could run on a laptop from last year(I don't remember the specs at the moment).

So is it going to run with a much low RAM pool?

And there is the demo from LAST YEAR showing running on the XSX? You can't make a claim no comparable footage.
 
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PaintTinJr

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The boss elemental creature was made up of Nanite meshes attached to a skeletal rig.
I was reading about nanites limitations on my phone earlier in the day, and I'm pretty sure skeletal animation isn't supported by nanite enabled meshes, so I would think the moving parts have to be nanite disabled dynamic meshes, but will obviously take your word for it, if you are sure.
 
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elliot5

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I was reading about nanites limitations on my phone earlier in the day, and I'm pretty sure skeletal animation isn't supported by nanite enabled meshes, so I would think the moving parts have to be nanite disabled dynamic meshes, but will obviously take your word for it, if you are sure.
Timestamp at 11:05 talking about the nanite meshing.

A skeletal mesh is one where the mesh is squashed and stretched with the bones of the skeleton, like a human rig. You can attach static meshes to skeletons to follow the bones without squashing and stretching, which is what this rig is doing.
 
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martino

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I was reading about nanites limitations on my phone earlier in the day, and I'm pretty sure skeletal animation isn't supported by nanite enabled meshes, so I would think the moving parts have to be nanite disabled dynamic meshes, but will obviously take your word for it, if you are sure.
here :
Nanite is currently limited to rigid meshes. These represent greater than 90% of the geometry in any typical scene for projects and is the initial focus of Nanite development. Nanite supports dynamic translation, rotation, and non-uniform scaling of rigid meshes, but does not support general mesh deformation, whether it is dynamic or static. This means any position of a Nanite mesh in a way that is more complex than can be expressed in a single 4x3 matrix multiply applied to the entire mesh.

Deformation not supported includes, but is not limited to:

  • Skeletal animation
  • Morph Targets
  • World Position Offset in materials
  • Spline meshes
 
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PaintTinJr

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This is why Neogaf is the best discussion forum, look at all these senior game developers, tech engineers we have here : )

Oh yea btw, grass still look like 2d objects
Grass, hair, etc - anything that when drawn from distance looks like a solid surface, but is filled with holes - is a non-nanite use case according to the documents because it cripples performance with overdraw . So grass is just old fashioned UE4 grass rendering AFAIK
 

ethomaz

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So we reach that point.

Reducing the memory footprint will harm the quality and time to load the data... so the slow HDD will affect the overall look of the demo in a drastic way.

Having the actual RAM to run it except for the initial loading being different it will look exactly the same no matter if HDD or SSD.

You need either RAM or faster I/O to get the actual quality showed in the demo.
 
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Shadowhelper

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Looks really great. But I am still waiting for drastic improvements in physics, in interactibility with all objects, with a more immersive reactive world. Tired of endless focus on graphics and lighting. I get there is way more going on here, in terms of making it easier on devs.

But physics and a reactive, tactile world, is what the focus should be on. Lots of games still kinda feel like some grand illusion, where its pretty but kinda hallow in terms of immersion.
 

harmny

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I'm not a parrot like you, everything needed to be said has already been said and backed by Epic devs. If you still wanna act like a kindergarten child and not read the materials shown to you then I really can't take you more than a troll. Ironically derailing the thread instead of constructive discussions then trying to pull a win out of his ass. :lollipop_tears_of_joy:

amazing. you may be talking to yourself
 

Bo_Hazem

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The details are that Nanite converts insanely detailed models into losslessly scaled model in the game engine tools.. on a PC.. before the much smaller assets are then built into a game, that runs on maybe a console.

That's how Nanite works.. it would not work any differently from an engine tooling process for a game compiled for PC vs. PS5.

In neither scenario is the game itself ever seeing anywhere near those polygon details. Those assets would never exist on a PS5.

Not saying otherwise, you just came late to the party. Older demo is near impossible stress test, the new one is very reasonable and realistic even from file size with such a big map. The single statue in the old one was 33M polygons, the massive giant in the new one was only 15M. Watch and hear that for yourself.

Anyway, I'm very happy with what I saw, especially on XSX, because that what matters to me because that means multiplats are in good hands, not just exclusives. The old demo was more like Icarus dream, something that must've been choking the whole PS5 667GB storage. This one is more reasonable and with further optimization it should be sized properly with great details. Also I'm happy with this 1080p base render with the new upscaling tech collaboration between Epic and AMD.
 
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Demon2blades

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We'd have to see the other demo running exactly the same to backup those conclusions, because today's demo was less about nanite and lumen than the previous one, and was rendering at 1080p30 (from the opening info IIRC, but upscaled to 4K, unlike 1400p with upscale).

The original demo used all the UE5 systems in tandem and really stressed lumen hard by camera speed and internal lighting. today's presentation had a 4.5second loading screen, focused on lighting nanite geometry with sun light with animated cloud cover, and was mostly rendering two characters, that aren't nanite geometry (the character/boss), and the large boss cinema level asset, was so high above the floor and other nanite geometry the lighting interactions with any parts of the model that were nanite meshes were not possible (AFAIK).
This ....
Whilst the demo released today was impressive we already knew ue5 was gonna run and scale to pretty much any platform going unreal engine is one of the biggest multiplatform engines going, but as far as the ps5's demo is concerned nothing much has changed we'd need that actual demo running exact settings on all platforms to know anymore in regards to running it on other systems .
 

IntentionalPun

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So we reach that point.

Reducing the memory footprint will harm the quality and time to load the data... so the slow HDD will affect the overall look of the demo in a drastic way.

Having the actual RAM to run it except for the initial loading being different it will look exactly the same no matter if HDD or SSD.
Yeah RAM was always an option really..

Doing it from an NVME drive w/ great compression is way fucking cooler though and a better long term approach.
 

MonarchJT

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You must not take things out of context, you're better than this. Read my posts, not the cut down posts from the trolls:

Old: 1440p, 100's of billions of triangles crunched down losslessly to 20M per frame (33.2ms window), literally what is in the fucking video said.

New: 1080p, 100's of millions of triangles (unknown frame budget) per frame (33.2ms window).

Got any more details? Share.



Nice slow motion.
directstorage say hi. after ppl showed you what an ancient hdd can do with nanite i would be ashamed to open my mouth on this after all the fantasyland talk you did inn the last months
 

MonarchJT

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Not saying otherwise, you just came late to the party. Older demo is near impossible stress test, the new one is very reasonable and realistic even from file size with such a big map. The single statue in the old one was 33M polygons, the massive giant in the new one was only 15M. Watch and hear that for yourself.

Anyway, I'm very happy with what I saw, especially on XSX, because that what matters to me because that means multiplats are in good hands, not just exclusives. The old demo was more like Icarus dream, something that must've been choking the whole PS5 667GB storage. This one is more reasonable and with further optimization it should be sized properly with great details. Also I'm happy with this 1080p base render with the new upscaling tech collaboration between Epic and AMD.
PC having zero problems with geometry

 

Boglin

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I'm not going to bother quoting anyone in particular but there seems to be a prevailing line of thought amongst anti-console folks that I'm curious about.

When did anyone say that more RAM can't mitigate the benefits of an SSD?

The hype behind SSDs has always been that they could allow you to stream in assets as needed rather than keeping unused ones sitting idle in memory, therefore freeing up memory for other things.

It's ridiculously obvious that if you have a surplus of RAM capacity and you're able to keep all the assets that you need stored within memory with room to spare then streaming them in from an SSD would be redundant.
 

bitbydeath

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GuinGuin

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I'm not going to bother quoting anyone in particular but there seems to be a prevailing line of thought amongst anti-console folks that I'm curious about.

When did anyone say that more RAM can't mitigate the benefits of an SSD?

The hype behind SSDs has always been that they could allow you to stream in assets as needed rather than keeping unused ones sitting idle in memory, therefore freeing up memory for other things.

It's ridiculously obvious that if you have a surplus of RAM capacity and you're able to keep all the assets that you need stored within memory with room to spare then streaming them in from an SSD would be redundant.

You're forgetting that data is highly compressed on an SSD but MUST be uncompressed to be usable in RAM so you would need an INSANE amount of RAM to account for that.
 
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IntentionalPun

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Boglin

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You're forgetting that data is highly compressed on an SSD but MUST be uncompressed to be usable in RAM so you would need an INSANE amount of RAM to account for that.
I don't think I'm forgetting anything. If you have 100GB of uncompressed assets and 128GB of ram then compressing those assets to 50GB doesn't mean much. That's besides my point, however.
 

Bo_Hazem

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GuinGuin

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according to bo hazem this is actually running on a ps5 because it would be just impossible otherwise.
It's impressive but loading one thing a bunch of times isn't as difficult as loading many different things a smaller amount of times
I don't think I'm forgetting anything. If you have 100GB of uncompressed assets and 128GB of ram then compressing those assets to 50GB doesn't mean much. That's besides my point, however.
128 GB of RAM is an insane amount of ram. No dev is going to make a game with that system requirement.
 
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MonarchJT

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from what ppl seeing testing it on b3d if you run the demo through the editor .....it need lots of ram ..(till 64gb, SSD etc etc)
if you run the standalone demo built with the editor ..
it will run fine also from an old ass hdd utilizing 5GB VRAM/4gb ram at 1440p
 
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Boglin

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It's impressive but loading one thing a bunch of times isn't as difficult as loading any different things a smaller amount of times

128 GB of RAM is an insane amount of ram. No dev is going to make a game with that system requirement.
You're missing my point then reinforcing the point I was attempting to make.

My point is that an SSD can reduce the need for more RAM in certain scenarios.

It's not magic fairy dust. It's basic math.
 
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IntentionalPun

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from what ppl seeing testing it on b3d if you run the demo through the editor .....it need lots of ram ..(till 64gb, SSD etc etc)
if you run the standalone demo built with the editor ..
it will run fine also from an old ass hdd utilizing 5GB VRAM/4gb ram at 1440p
I really doubt this is accurate... I'm no reading anything like that there, link/quote?

edit: Nevermind.. lol holy shit


6-7 GB VRAM / 3-5 gb RAM at native 4K
 
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