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Trump signs executive order banning transactions with Tencent

Azurro

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As in this moment I don't know but there are many things the US has done that would raise eyebrows. Sticking to actual declassified stuff what about supporting coups that go and actually commit genocide (Chile) or using illegal drug trafficking money to fund black ops (Nicaragua) or abandoning allies in the front? What do you think starting a war on the pretense of WMDs and finding none? You could argue that they are things that happened before but nobody has paid for any of that but you do have Manning in jail for leaking info (so the Justice system works for some, apparently).
The Chinese have hundreds of thousands of people in "reeducation" camps, that's holocaust level of awfulness. Nothing you described compares to the holocaust and the Chinese (or rather, the CCP) are quite happy with committing one.
 
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sure they havent started countless needless wars but the very fact that they are an authoritarian 1 party country with zero human empathy or rights who want to control every fucking thing around them means i'd rather have the US run shit than the Chinese, at least you guys attempt to hold your government to account but the CCP, they're some James bond baddie shit and Trumps constant attacks on them is the only thing that tangerine fucking buffoon gets right
Completely agree. And while they don't start wars, atrocities and conflict with India, Tibet, and minority populations in their West are just as bad. Much like railing/regulating the corporations and 1% here, I feel less conflicted about this targeting. Where in the US, corps lobby and buy politicians and China its just an unspoken guarantee that they work for the CCP in some capacity.
Its not against the people of China (who get overlooked as bystanders in these debates) but against the non-marxist totalitarian governement and everything they have their hands in.

But if so many are worried about this, then you better look elsewhere outside our borders. While Trump has derailed most relationships abroad, developing and financially desperate countries across the globe are more than ready to welcome Chinese investments (the US receives the most per year still), but South America and Africa are the newest targets due to natural resources.
 
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If they banned this gambling practices, companies would find other ways, hopely more fair to make a profit. Also, I am not particularly interested in games where the economy sis based around that, I like AAA games and some cool Indie games, so for me,t hat would not be a loss.

EGS store does fund the end of developement some times, it may even save aproject, but we are not talking only about the epic store. How does this affect Unreal Engine and the hundreds of devs that use it, for example.

I don't see how banning this 2 companies could mean anything good for the players in any sense (and I can even see less how this would help society in any form)
It wouldn’t do anything to those developers because tencent doesn’t own Epic, nor Unreal Engine. And even if they did, every developer that uses Unreal Engine would have a big list of alternatives to move to. They could also make their own engine.

It wouldn’t be the end of the world, and it wouldn’t have society altering effects. To believe so is pretty laughable.

It doesn’t matter though, because the US government was too short sited to see that tencent is as big of a problem as WeChat. For now...
 

magnumpy

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What effect have labels like "organic", "all-natural", "locally-grown", "non-GMO", etc. made on how products sell? All of these are meaningless in any real sense. For example, organic produce are identical to non-organic ones in blind taste tests. Yet people look for these labels and pay more for what is functionally, to them, the same tomato. It slices the same, tastes the same (as studies prove), and the organic tomato actually rots quicker than the alternative. The same goes for labels like "green", "fair trade", etc. But these labels actually work and enable companies to sell functionally identical products for higher prices.

There is no reason that "US-made" could not be crafted to be similar. All it takes is the right logo and the right PR. And unlike any of those other labels (except for "locally-grown", which is similar) it actually benefits the US economy.
ok so how much of a premium would the average us consumer be willing to pay extra for that? you realize of course that there is more than 1 manufacturer of consoles. so you're talking about hindering whatever victim of this policy in the form of reduced sales compared to their competitors. you would be handing victory to whatever console doesn't have to suffer under this tax.
 

tsumake

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ok so how much of a premium would the average us consumer be willing to pay extra for that? you realize of course that there is more than 1 manufacturer of consoles. so you're talking about hindering whatever victim of this policy in the form of reduced sales compared to their competitors. you would be handing victory to whatever console doesn't have to suffer under this tax.
You know, during the mid nineteenth century the Southern states made a similar argument - who’s going to pay extra for cotton?
 

Ornlu

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You mean the same Reddit that is supported by tencent? Yes China's internet censorship is fucked up but that's no reason to stop globalisation. Tencent isn't China, just as Google isn't the US.
According to Chinese law, it is. That's part of why governments all around the world are dealing with China in increasingly aggressive fashion.
 

infinitys_7th

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ok so how much of a premium would the average us consumer be willing to pay extra for that? you realize of course that there is more than 1 manufacturer of consoles. so you're talking about hindering whatever victim of this policy in the form of reduced sales compared to their competitors. you would be handing victory to whatever console doesn't have to suffer under this tax.
I guess Trader Joe's and Fresh Market and all those specialty grocers and farmer's markets do not exist then. Why do people buy a tomato at those places and pay more for one that is the same or even inferior to the one they can get at Walmart? Because they want it. They see value in where it came from in addition to the utility they get from it.

I think the same can be done with "Made in US" products, and eventually their prices will come down to roughly match China thanks to automation. Lower logistics costs along with a slight premium for the "brand" is more than feasible, especially with a national push with the government only buying American to speed it up. If the US government demanded their computers and phones to be fully made in the US (say to avoid Chinese backdoors being installed) then someone would fill that niche and naturally expand their market as time went on.
 

ShinNL

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You mean the same Reddit that is supported by tencent? Yes China's internet censorship is fucked up but that's no reason to stop globalisation. Tencent isn't China, just as Google isn't the US.
This is why educating yourself before saying things is important. I don't blame you, but you haven't read on how the government of China works and the exact reason why people try to avoid letting Chinese companies have too much influence. It's a communist country for a reason.

It's good to realize that people in general are trying to live their lives the best they can, so surely there are more than enough sane people working in China. Those people don't have a choice. I can appreciate not labeling people just in one go. But the country itself has really bad laws and people have to somehow be able to dig through their brainwashing propaganda since childhood. It's really really not good.

They recently got hold on Digital Extremes (Canada). I hope Warframe isn't going be trapped because of all this :( I want them to be free.
 
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Three

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According to Chinese law, it is. That's part of why governments all around the world are dealing with China in increasingly aggressive fashion.
I don't know which law you're referring to but Tencent isn't state owned.

This is why educating yourself before saying things is important. I don't blame you, but you haven't read on how the government of China works and the exact reason why people try to avoid letting Chinese companies have too much influence. It's a communist country for a reason.
So tell me. If you're saying that China can put pressure on Tencent to do something by their own law. So can the US on US companies.
 
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Neofire

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According to Chinese law, it is. That's part of why governments all around the world are dealing with China in increasingly aggressive fashion.
Has the individual you are replying to not seen China's history with companies from and operating in China? Because some of his statements misinformed at best.
 
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oagboghi2

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I don't know which law you're referring to but Tencent isn't state owned.


So tell me. If you're saying that China can put pressure on Tencent to do something by their own law. So can the US on US companies.
You can't be serious. The CCP controls tencent. They can, and have admitted as such, interfere with these companies anytime they want.

You can't do buisness without treating the CCP as a partner, because for all intents and purposes they are.
 

MastaKiiLA

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This isn't about America bad, China good, or vise-versa. This should worry EVERYONE, because the security threat posed by TikTok has already been downplayed by various security experts, so the basis of this "national emergency", which is the foundation this ban is built on, is beyond dangerous. Now a president, a single person, can declare a national emergency to smite his opponents, foreign AND DOMESTIC. The same people applauding this ban, are the same people who appear on TikTok berating a store manager because they're required to wear a mask during a pandemic, or complaining about loss of their 2nd amendment rights. Well, you're applauding the same kind of authoritarian censorship that we frown on in China.

There are ways to contain a perceived security risk, including having Congress mandate certain data protection protocols like the uber-obnoxious (if you have to deal with it) GPDR. However, we won't do that, so we let American companies spy on us, and sell our data to the highest bidder, but we're targeting an app that is largely used by teens? It just doesn't add up. However, the lasting consequences can be dire. I don't think that's hyperbole. This opens the door to more restrictive and far-reaching censorship under the guise of national security. This is a legislative decision, not an executive one. I don't like it, and I've never liked it. Imagine if Hillary Clinton's crusade against video game violence back in the day resulted in Bill issuing a state of emergency in order to pass an executive order banning violent video games on the grounds that they endanger the public safety? It's only the respect for the separation of powers that prevented this from happening. Now that barrier no longer exists.

My last post in this thread. I'm not affected by this ban, but I seriously don't like the precedent that it sets.
 
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Three

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You can't be serious. The CCP controls tencent. They can, and have admitted as such, interfere with these companies anytime they want.

You can't do buisness without treating the CCP as a partner, because for all intents and purposes they are.
In what way and to do what, get data on you? Guess what the Patriot Act lets the US request and collect data on you from any US companies too.
 
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tsumake

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In what way and to do what, get data on you? Guess what the Patriot Act lets the US request and collect data on you from any US companies too.
So I guess the Patriot Act makes it ok for the CCP to do the same thing 😚
 

REDRZA MWS

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Sure if you believe in isolation and nationalism. Just pray other countries don't start doing the same for US software and services.
You cant be serious. Block our software and services? Go right ahead what would that matter when trade goes ONE WAY. China has ben raping the world on the backs of child slave labor and the rest of the world cant compete when you have to you know, actually pay and take care of your employees?

China hasnt ever been trustworthy. They do whats best for them, but when Trump says "America first", the hate that ensues is seriously disheartening. Hypocrisy in full effect.
 

Three

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So I guess the Patriot Act makes it ok for the CCP to do the same thing 😚
No of course not. I do think people who think this is about "chinese software is some spyware" are fundamentally wrong though because the same shit is happening with US companies. Yes I'm not a supporter of China. I hate their censorship, their treatment of their citizens, etc. This shit is about something else though. It's about US tech company interests and keeping companies like Huawei/Tencent down.

You cant be serious. Block our software and services? Go right ahead what would that matter when trade goes ONE WAY. China has ben raping the world on the backs of child slave labor and the rest of the world cant compete when you have to you know, actually pay and take care of your employees?

China hasnt ever been trustworthy. They do whats best for them, but when Trump says "America first", the hate that ensues is seriously disheartening. Hypocrisy in full effect.
Funny then that the chinese companies they aren't banning trade with are the slave labour companies. Why the fuck do you think that is? Oh, I know why because Apple, MS, Google etc still needs to make their shit there. Supporting 'commies' and 'genocide' and all that jazz mentioned in the thread.
 
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oagboghi2

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In what way and to do what, get data on you? Guess what the Patriot Act lets the US request and collect data on you from any US companies too.
THEY OWN THE SERVERS.

Let me reframe this. You know all that data people give to Apple. Apple owns the data that is on those servers, which they also own. They can look up whatever they want with it.

You know who doesn't own those servers? The U.S government. The government can't just grab that data. They need legal access to it, notably they need a warrant.

As you yourself just wrote, the Patriot Act allows the government to request, and collect data. They don't own the data outright.

If you are offended that the government can abuse the Patriot act to wiretap Americans communication records, why are you comfortable that a foreign government now owns that exact same information on you? Why are you angry that the America. Government is trying to stop spying?

I pointed out to directly what this app does, and why it's different from other companies and you just ignored it. Either you are just a Chinese shill, or or you are so used to talking whataboutisms about America that you will defend any bullshit a foreign nation pulls
 
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ShinNL

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So tell me. If you're saying that China can put pressure on Tencent to do something by their own law. So can the US on US companies.
I can go the whole "Let me Google that for you" route, but judging by your reaction and stance, you obviously want to stay willfully ignorant. So I'm not even going to bother. No, like, seriously, it's one Google search away and I could, but you're really not worth any time or effort.

PS. As you probably don't pay attention to usernames properly, I'm a Chinese from Europe. From my point of view, any stance you make just seems objectively ridiculous to me. You're not about facts and reality, but about stupid semantic discussions.
 
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Three

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I can go the whole "Let me Google that for you" route, but judging by your reaction and stance, you obviously want to stay willfully ignorant. So I'm not even going to bother. No, like, seriously, it's one Google search away and I could, but you're really not worth any time or effort.

PS. As you probably don't pay attention to usernames properly, I'm a Chinese from Europe. From my point of view, any stance you make just seems objectively ridiculous to me. You're not about facts and reality, but about stupid semantic discussions.
So why did you bother to respond at all instead of, you know, just telling me what you apparently know? Thought so.

THEY OWN THE SERVERS.

Let me reframe this. You know all that data people give to Apple. Apple owns the data that is on those servers, which they also own. They can look up whatever they want with it.

You know who doesn't own those servers? The U.S government. The government can't just grab that data. They need legal access to it, notably they need a warrant.

As you yourself just wrote, the Patriot Act allows the government to request, and collect data. They don't own the data outright.

I pointed out to directly what this app does, and why it's different from other companies and you just ignored it. Either you are just a Chinese shill, or or you are so used to talking whataboutisms about America that you will defend any bullshit a foreign nation pulls
I asked you for proof of any of this, tiktok maintain that the servers are in the US and Singapore. You provided fuck all. I asked you why Google has not banned the app that you think is riddled with malware from the play store, you responded with fuck all. Don't tell me I ignored it because I didn't.

I'm out it's clear that you both have nothing.
 
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Ornlu

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I don't know which law you're referring to but Tencent isn't state owned.
I'm not sure if you're aware, but the line between state and private ownership is extremely fuzzy in China. All citizens and corporations, regardless of official employment regarding the state, are required to spy on behalf of the state if asked. Private companies and citizens are routinely granted extravagant subsidies to allow them to compete with foreign companies. What distinction between state and private ownership do you feel makes a large difference in this case?

Some links, in case you were curious:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tencent - Status of Tencent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Huateng - Founder, Chairman, and CEO of Tencent, member of the CCP

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/The-Big-Story/For-some-Chinese-companies-generous-state-subsidies-make-up-for-losses - Example of subsidies

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/13/opinion/china-canada-huawei-spying-espionage-5g.html - Regarding Espionage law

https://qz.com/1016531/what-you-need-to-know-about-chinas-intelligence-law-that-takes-effect-today/ - Dated article with some details of Espionage law

:messenger_beermugs:
 
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oagboghi2

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So why did you bother to respond at all instead of, you know, just telling me what you apparently know? Thought so.



I asked you for proof of any of this, tiktok maintain that the servers are in the US and Singapore. You provided fuck all. I asked you why Google has not banned the app that you think is riddled with malware from the play store, you responded with fuck all. Don't tell me I ignored it because I didn't.

I'm out it's clear that you both have nothing.
I explained in detail what TikTok takes and you just ignored it.

This has been reported for months, but you want to pretend it's nothing because you are in denial.





You also asked stupid questions. Does Google have a ban on apps that collect data or are financed by China? The answer to both of those questions is no.

No one is saying is TikTok is magically evil. What people are saying, if you bothered to fucking read is that TikTok grabs a greater than needed to amount of data, has access to things it doesn't need access to, has a bizaare permission to allow zip files and logs all that data back to servers owned by a foreign entity.
 
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A.Romero

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The Chinese have hundreds of thousands of people in "reeducation" camps, that's holocaust level of awfulness. Nothing you described compares to the holocaust and the Chinese (or rather, the CCP) are quite happy with committing one.
That's what I'm saying. Everyone will find an angle to do awful things. Probably the CCP has a justification that makes sense to them.

While "reeducation" camps are the limit for Americans, I bet that there are many other countries that find what the US does way beyond the line. For example putting illegal immigrant's kids in cages.

None of it is good. Nobody really has a moral position to point fingers to anyone else.
 

oagboghi2

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That's what I'm saying. Everyone will find an angle to do awful things. Probably the CCP has a justification that makes sense to them.

While "reeducation" camps are the limit for Americans, I bet that there are many other countries that find what the US does way beyond the line. For example putting illegal immigrant's kids in cages.

None of it is good. Nobody really has a moral position to point fingers to anyone else.
This is what I mean when I say whataboutism bullshit.
 
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Ornlu

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That's what I'm saying. Everyone will find an angle to do awful things. Probably the CCP has a justification that makes sense to them.

While "reeducation" camps are the limit for Americans, I bet that there are many other countries that find what the US does way beyond the line. For example putting illegal immigrant's kids in cages.

None of it is good. Nobody really has a moral position to point fingers to anyone else.
Yeah, no.

Let's not try to "both sides" a functioning Republic, and a Communist regime. It's not going to even out no matter how it's tried.
 
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A.Romero

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Yeah, no.

Let's not try to "both sides" a functioning Republic, and a Communist regime. It's not going to even out no matter how it's tried.
Of course not. They suck.

The US sucks too.

How do you expect to really live by the values of America if you can't even recognize that there are many things in the way previous governments and the current one behaves that are awful too? Why not give China the finger and at the same time be an example to follow by doing things the right way instead of just aspiring to not be as awful as other regimes are?

Or not. That's alright too. That's the crude reality of humanity. But let's accept it and not pretend that anyone is truly better just because they haven't crossed a certain line recently or because when the lines are crossed there is a "good motive".

That's all I'm saying.

I can accept that I'm a terrible human being that has a very comfortable life that often is at the expense of many other people in my own country and abroad. I can accept that I like gadgets and gaming enough that I don't really care that they are being built (or were built in the past) by using terrible working conditions by a regimen that has "reeducation" camps and many other truly terrible things. The same way I can watch a movie made by an industry full of pedophiles, racists and abusers. I can also accept that the government in my country is terrible and corrupted and while it doesn't do things the same way China or the US does it's still terrible with no signs of improvement. It's not a political party thing. Is not something related to patriotism. It's crude reality.

I know it's hard but that's the true. If we truly cared we wouldn't be able to sleep at night. We wouldn't spend money giving tacit support to terrible companies, governments and people. We should strive to be coherent. The day as a society we dare to accept all these facts, is the day our growth could start. Alas, I just don't think is in our nature.
 
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just tray

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Those CCP ties and national security issues. All Chinese companies are a target and they can do things the U.S. way or take your trash elsewhere. Who needs who again? China is in no position to be acting as arrogant as it is and during a Cold War you should expect casualties and Tecent is no different.
 

tsumake

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Of course not. They suck.

The US sucks too.

How do you expect to really live by the values of America if you can't even recognize that there are many things in the way previous governments and the current one behaves that are awful too? Why not give China the finger and at the same time be an example to follow by doing things the right way instead of just aspiring to not be as awful as other regimes are?

Or not. That's alright too. That's the crude reality of humanity. But let's accept it and not pretend that anyone is truly better just because they haven't crossed a certain line recently or because when the lines are crossed there is a "good motive".

That's all I'm saying.

I can accept that I'm a terrible human being that has a very comfortable life that often is at the expense of many other people in my own country and abroad. I can accept that I like gadgets and gaming enough that I don't really care that they are being built (or were built in the past) by using terrible working conditions by a regimen that has "reeducation" camps and many other truly terrible things. The same way I can watch a movie made by an industry full of pedophiles, racists and abusers. I can also accept that the government in my country is terrible and corrupted and while it doesn't do things the same way China or the US does it's still terrible with no signs of improvement. It's not a political party thing. Is not something related to patriotism. It's crude reality.

I know it's hard but that's the true. If we truly cared we wouldn't be able to sleep at night. We wouldn't spend money giving tacit support to terrible companies, governments and people. We should strive to be coherent. The day as a society we dare to accept all these facts, is the day our growth could start. Alas, I just don't think is in our nature.
Hey man, I get it. You can always turn off the lights and listen to Too Dark Park.


 
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A.Romero

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Hey man, I get it. You can always turn off the lights and listen to Too Dark Park.



I thought it was clear in my post: I'm as happy as a person can be. I just don't pretend that I'm better than anyone else just because I haven't done a particular thing.

Can you look at your life and whatever you have and feel ethical? Is not being a rapist/murderer/communist dictator enough to feel like a good human being?
 

tsumake

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I thought it was clear in my post: I'm as happy as a person can be. I just don't pretend that I'm better than anyone else just because I haven't done a particular thing.

Can you look at your life and whatever you have and feel ethical? Is not being a rapist/murderer/communist dictator enough to feel like a good human being?
Yes
 
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A.Romero

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Great. Me too.

Now next step is just accept that just because someone else can also fool themselves like us but with a higher awfulness threshold is not objectively worse than us. It just seems that way.

In the mean time we can go back to discussing pressing gaming issues and have a great time too.

Btw, thanks for discussing in a civil way. I really appreciate it. I think this is one of the more serious topics I've discussed in GAF and I've been around for more than 10 years.
 

tsumake

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Great. Me too.

Now next step is just accept that just because someone else can also fool themselves like us but with a higher awfulness threshold is not objectively worse than us. It just seems that way.

In the mean time we can go back to discussing pressing gaming issues and have a great time too.

Btw, thanks for discussing in a civil way. I really appreciate it. I think this is one of the more serious topics I've discussed in GAF and I've been around for more than 10 years.
Are you telling me, or us, how to define our moral compass?

If you’re happy (which I hope you are you), then you’re either being demoralizing on purpose, an intellectual coward, or both. Casting moral aspersions on individuals for expressing opinions is immature at best, troubling at worst.
 

A.Romero

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Are you telling me, or us, how to define our moral compass?

If you’re happy (which I hope you are you), then you’re either being demoralizing on purpose, an intellectual coward, or both. Casting moral aspersions on individuals for expressing opinions is immature at best, troubling at worst.
I'm just pointing out that seems hypocritical to perform any actions on other nations by implying that the US (in this case but it would apply to pretty much anyone) has any kind of high moral position considering it's history and behaviour. Not trying to set your moral compass, just saying it is not coherent on an individual level to applaud an economic sanction because China has "reeducation" camps while the US has had or currently has similar behaviours (thinking of the Japanese concentration camps within US soil or the "holding" areas for illegal immigrants).

It's has been argued that under those circumstances such actions are justified and since the beginning I said that probably China could argue some kind of justification. Both cases are bullshit in the case anyone was trying to be an actual "good" nation.

Considering there is no justification for any of that on any circumstance I'm trying to say that if there was a true concern for injustice at any point then the US economy wouldn't have such an economic participation with China. Now, thinking individually, I'd say that if anyone is truly uncomfortable with any of that then there are several actions we could be taking without having the government intervene, like not consuming products made in China. However, that does take a really big effort (imagine not using any product assembled in China or not playing any game that would lead to any kind of profit to Tencent) so we somehow (and for own mental health) turn a blind eye to that.

Taking all that into account, there are two ways we can process the reality of the world and act accordingly (and coherently):

- Really get out of our comfort zone and live our lives in a way that is coherent with what is being discussed in this thread (fuck China/CCP and all that) by not consuming their products

- Continue living the same way we have all of our lives accepting that we truly don't care enough about what's happening to other people (this is my personal position because I can't see how I could live without purchasing cheap clothes, food, electronics, fuel, etc).

If we only have animosity towards those regimens but we somehow support them (indirectly) then we are just virtue signaling (I'm not 100% sure this is the right term).

The sad truth is that there is no way we can have the lifestyles that we have without stomping on many other people in ways that we can hardly imagine. Every day we make choices to perpetuate this and I can't think of any time when humanity hasn't behaved this way.

My invitation is to be try to accept this sad truth because it's the only way humanity could start growing. We might be able to be better but we will never get there if we can only see what others are doing wrong or if we look for justifications for awful things we do every single day.

TL;DR: Humanity is awful and we should accept it in order to change it.
 

oagboghi2

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I'm just pointing out that seems hypocritical to perform any actions on other nations by implying that the US (in this case but it would apply to pretty much anyone) has any kind of high moral position considering it's history and behaviour. Not trying to set your moral compass, just saying it is not coherent on an individual level to applaud an economic sanction because China has "reeducation" camps while the US has had or currently has similar behaviours (thinking of the Japanese concentration camps within US soil or the "holding" areas for illegal immigrants).
No one is arguing for this policy based off the idea that the US has a moral high ground. It's based off the idea that TikTok operating as it currently is constitutes a threat to national security.

The rest of your post just comes as high school nonsense and a very naive view of the world
 
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A.Romero

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No one is arguing for this policy based off the idea that the US has a moral high ground. It's based off the idea that TikTok operating as it currently is constitutes a threat to national security.

The rest of your post just comes as high school nonsense and a very naive view of the world
I don't know, I've seen several posts saying that CCP is the worst and some defending the US is not as bad.

I'm open to hear your view of the world. Might help me understand it better.
 
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tsumake

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I'm just pointing out that seems hypocritical to perform any actions on other nations by implying that the US (in this case but it would apply to pretty much anyone) has any kind of high moral position considering it's history and behaviour. Not trying to set your moral compass, just saying it is not coherent on an individual level to applaud an economic sanction because China has "reeducation" camps while the US has had or currently has similar behaviours (thinking of the Japanese concentration camps within US soil or the "holding" areas for illegal immigrants).

It's has been argued that under those circumstances such actions are justified and since the beginning I said that probably China could argue some kind of justification. Both cases are bullshit in the case anyone was trying to be an actual "good" nation.

Considering there is no justification for any of that on any circumstance I'm trying to say that if there was a true concern for injustice at any point then the US economy wouldn't have such an economic participation with China. Now, thinking individually, I'd say that if anyone is truly uncomfortable with any of that then there are several actions we could be taking without having the government intervene, like not consuming products made in China. However, that does take a really big effort (imagine not using any product assembled in China or not playing any game that would lead to any kind of profit to Tencent) so we somehow (and for own mental health) turn a blind eye to that.

Taking all that into account, there are two ways we can process the reality of the world and act accordingly (and coherently):

- Really get out of our comfort zone and live our lives in a way that is coherent with what is being discussed in this thread (fuck China/CCP and all that) by not consuming their products

- Continue living the same way we have all of our lives accepting that we truly don't care enough about what's happening to other people (this is my personal position because I can't see how I could live without purchasing cheap clothes, food, electronics, fuel, etc).

If we only have animosity towards those regimens but we somehow support them (indirectly) then we are just virtue signaling (I'm not 100% sure this is the right term).

The sad truth is that there is no way we can have the lifestyles that we have without stomping on many other people in ways that we can hardly imagine. Every day we make choices to perpetuate this and I can't think of any time when humanity hasn't behaved this way.

My invitation is to be try to accept this sad truth because it's the only way humanity could start growing. We might be able to be better but we will never get there if we can only see what others are doing wrong or if we look for justifications for awful things we do every single day.

TL;DR: Humanity is awful and we should accept it in order to change it.
You’re not pointing out anything. You either assume or expect others to follow your nihilistic worldview, which is unfortunate. You don’t like that people are happy (or unhappy) about the EO and somehow saw it as an opportunity to proselytize.

But you’re right, this is derailing the topic.