and it's mind boggling to me that people were willing to blindly buy into his earlier cheap nihilism so vehemently. go with that shallow ideology irl if you wish but in the context of the show it's clear very, very early on that his nihilism is a defense mechanism. and the finale isn't him suddenly becoming a 7th heaven character, it's him admitting his philosophy stemmed from weak will.
that you think anything but nihilism is delusion is hilarious
Did they really? the first victim tied up at the tree. The sculptures in the abandoned school and the one left behind at the house in the bar(?). Pentagrams on walls. There's the video and photographs of the rituals in the woods. Unless my definition of Satanism is wrong they explored it.
The entire show is about Rust being infallible. He's strong- morally, physically and mentally, regardless of how messed up he was or what situation he was in. He was in control.
The only times he wasn't was with women and on his death bed. It was a statement on man's nature.
and it's mind boggling to me that people were willing to blindly buy into his earlier cheap nihilism so vehemently. go with that shallow ideology irl if you wish but in the context of the show it's clear very, very early on that his nihilism is a defense mechanism. and the finale isn't him suddenly becoming a 7th heaven character, it's him admitting his philosophy stemmed from weak will.
that you think anything but nihilism is delusion is hilarious
Since the moment he starting mentioning his dead daughter, it was pretty clear that Rust's worldview was more of a coping mechanism than a sincere belief that life is pointless and that the ideal outcome would be if everyone killed themselves. The ending isn't out of left field, it's the natural conclusion of a character arc.
The only thing delusional about TD's finale is the similarly nihilistic viewers who connected with Rust's philosophy, felt betrayed by his "maybe everything's not so shitty after all" epiphany, and then suddenly attacked that as bad writing.
The entire show is about Rust being infallible. He's strong- morally, physically and mentally, regardless of how messed up he was or what situation he was in. He was in control.
Wait...what point are you trying to make about women? women somehow...made Rust weak? it was only without them around that he was able to persevere and be an "infallible" badass with the one and only true nihilistic ideology?
It didn't feel earned to me either. What made him change his worldview so radically (or give up on that coping mechanism, according to you)? A near death experience? That's it?
It didn't feel earned to me either. What made him change his worldview so radically (or give up on that coping mechanism, according to you)? A near death experience? That's it?
Just the last one, from what I can tell. He worked on the case with Marty for years without that changing his views on the world (on the contrary?).
Sorry, but I don't think it's earned when, a few minutes before the end of a story, a character goes "also, remember how I've been all along? well, I'm a different man now, because of that one life-changing experience I just had off-screen". That's not what I'd call "the natural conclusion of a character arc".
Since the moment he starting mentioning his dead daughter, it was pretty clear that Rust's worldview was more of a coping mechanism than a sincere belief that life is pointless and that the ideal outcome would be if everyone killed themselves. The ending isn't out of left field, it's the natural conclusion of a character arc.
The only thing delusional about TD's finale is the similarly nihilistic viewers who connected with Rust's philosophy, felt betrayed by his "maybe everything's not so shitty after all" epiphany, and then suddenly attacked that as bad writing.
I often get the impression that the whingers are people who identified with Rust throughout the series and felt betrayed that he 'sold out'. It's pretty sad.
I often get the impression that the whingers are people who identified with Rust throughout the series and felt betrayed that he 'sold out'. It's pretty sad.
Bingo. Marty even calls him out a few times on sounding panicked when he goes on one of his nihilistic speeches. Rusts beliefs were as much a coping mechanism as the religious people he mocked.
I think some of that was an act. Marty says something to the detectives along the lines of 'if you've been talking to rust, you haven't been playing him, he's been playing you'. He's currently close to the climax of a decade plus long investigation and he's trying to see if the detectives have any new information he could use, and otherwise stop them from messing up his own investigation. He also doesn't trust them. So he acts a certain way which doesn't represent himself completely honestly.
and it's mind boggling to me that people were willing to blindly buy into his earlier cheap nihilism so vehemently. go with that shallow ideology irl if you wish but in the context of the show it's clear very, very early on that his nihilism is a defense mechanism. and the finale isn't him suddenly becoming a 7th heaven character, it's him admitting his philosophy stemmed from weak will.
that you think anything but nihilism is delusion is hilarious
But it isn't about that. At all. It is about a character who does a complete turnaround in five fucking minutes (because obviously, the show is about to end, so he better get to it). And to add insult to injury, he does it for a reason that actually has a much better explanation than the world is good and heaven is real and my daughter is waiting for me. A scientific one. And Rust has been shown to be a man of reason and logic.
So does this make him more human. Arguably. Does it destroy his character. Probably. Is this some lazy ass writing. Definitely. The change maybe had foundation. The suddenness of it did not.
But it isn't about that. At all. It is about a character who does a complete turnaround in five fucking minutes (because obviously, the show is about to end, so he better get to it). And to add insult to injury, he does it for a reason that actually has a much better explanation than the world is good and heaven is real and my daughter is waiting for me. A scientific one. And Rust has been shown to be a man of reason and logic.
So does this make him more human. Arguably. Does it destroy his character. Probably. Is this some lazy ass writing. Definitely. The change maybe had foundation. The suddenness of it did not.
Wait...what point are you trying to make about women? women somehow...made Rust weak? it was only without them around that he was able to persevere and be an "infallible" badass with the one and only true nihilistic ideology?
It's a character study of two men. The environment being highly religious and under-educated is a big part of the character study. In every encounter or situation, Rust is above the people he's dealing with. His partner is disgusted by his worldview, but Rust is the character with the moral high ground.
This isn't a show for everyone. If you're hung up on Rust's worldview being wrong, or that the show was intended to highlight how wrong he was, then you don't get it. It's as simple as that.
^Hah man fuck if I know. Fuck if any of us know. If your only goal is to argue the primacy of a single school of philosophical thought then I feel like you necessarily haven't actually read that much philosophy
It's a character study of two men. The environment being highly religious and under-educated is a big part of the character study. In every encounter or situation, Rust is above the people he's dealing with. His partner is disgusted by his worldview, but Rust is the character with the moral high ground.
This isn't a show for everyone. If you're hung up on Rust's worldview being wrong, or that the show was intended to highlight how wrong he was, then you don't get it. It's as simple as that.
It's a character study of two men. The environment being highly religious and under-educated is a big part of the character study. In every encounter or situation, Rust is above the people he's dealing with. His partner is disgusted by his worldview, but Rust is the character with the moral high ground.
This isn't a show for everyone. If you're hung up on Rust's worldview being wrong, or that the show was intended to highlight how wrong he was, then you don't get it. It's as simple as that.
Rust is every bit as delusional as Marty just in a different way. Seriously if Rust were a gaffer and he posted half the crap he spouted on the show, people would be telling him to get help and that life is good. I don't see how Rust's worldview can be the right one (not that the show is necessarily even proving anyone's worldview right) when he's saying in the first episode how the human race should just stop reproducing, that's insane to me. Yeah there's a lot of awful shit in the world, but to say there's nothing good is just delusional and not accurate at all, its just as bad as pretending the world is completely perfect, I mean there are shades of both.
Honestly from reading your posts I don't see anything that proves Rusts worldview as being wrong or even right for that matter. I do have a question though if Rust's worldview was so right, then how come they had that scene in episode 7 with Marty and Rust discussing where they were at in their lives and we saw Marty eating a tv dinner alone, and Rust drinking alone?
Now before you say Rust doesn't care about relationships or things like that, there are two things I want to point out.
The first is that might not even be true, considering they had the episode where he went to go see Maggie when he mowed Marty's lawn, so deep down its pretty obvious the guy wanted some sort of social contact.
Second the way the scene was shot with the sad music was clearly met to illicit feelings of pity for both these men and how sad and lonely their lives were, but I'm sure you're just gonna tell me I didn't get it.
If your only goal is to argue the primacy of a single school of philosophical thought then I feel like you necessarily haven't actually read that much philosophy
Which is why it's hard for me to buy the whole "Rust's worldview was a shallow, cheap coping mechanism" line, because that completely tosses out that particular worldview...even though it's a worldview that Pizza's idol espouses (the same idol he was accused of plagiarizing), and a worldview that is relied on, heavily, for Rust.
Rust is every bit as delusional as Marty just in a different way. Seriously if Rust were a gaffer and he posted half the crap he spouted on the show, people would be telling him to get help and that life is good. I don't see how Rust's worldview can be the right one (not that the show is necessarily even proving anyone's worldview right) when he's saying in the first episode how the human race should just stop reproducing, that's insane to me. Yeah there's a lot of awful shit in the world, but to say there's nothing good is just delusional and not accurate at all, its just as bad as pretending the world is completely perfect, I mean there are shades of both.
That's the thing, though. Ligotti seriously considers this as a possible solution to the suffering of the human race. He also directly addresses people who (inherently) assume this that notion is "crazy".
Pessimist philosophy may not be popular and may appear extreme, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate it.
Which is why it's hard for me to buy the whole "Rust's worldview was a shallow, cheap coping mechanism" line, because that completely tosses out that particular worldview...even though it's a worldview that Pizza's idol espouses (the same idol he was accused of plagiarizing), and a worldview that is relied on, heavily, for Rust.
Being a coping mechanism and being cheap and shallow aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
I believe when people speak of Rust's extreme views as a sort of coping mechanism they simply mean he adopted these views to cope with the loss of his daughter, that its not necessarily his natural state. The thing is he was so entrenched with these views its hard to call them shallow or cheap.
I mean even as a coping mechanism Rust threw himself so deep into this philosphy/worldview/whatever you want to call it of his, that it was practically indistinguishable from someone who was naturally that way and someone who adopted that viewpoint to deal with the world.
Edit: Anton I guess you're right, pessimist philosophy is extreme and that doesn't necessarily invalidate it, true but its not like there's anything that completely validates it either as being a universal truth. Mind you, I'm not even the most positive person around, but some of Ligotti's stuff is pretty extreme, that doesn't mean he's wrong, because it might not even be a matter of simply right or wrong, though maybe it is? I don't necessarily agree with it if that makes more sense. Truth is being around people who only see the worst in everything can be a drain and I say this as someone who has thoughts like that in the past.
Just finished watching all 8 episodes in the timespan of 2 days. The cinematography is outstanding. Really liked the opening intro. Mcconaughey's and Harrelson's performance is great. The character developement was well paced.
Its a shame Fukunaga won't direct the second season. First season was good.
Some symbolism was kind of neat, like Rust drinking a beer brand specifically labeled Lone Star.
Edit: Anton I guess you're right, pessimist philosophy is extreme and that doesn't necessarily invalidate it, true but its not like there's anything that completely validates it either as being a universal truth. Mind you, I'm not even the most positive person around, but some of Ligotti's stuff is pretty extreme, that doesn't mean he's wrong, because it might not even be a matter of simply right or wrong, though maybe it is? I don't necessarily agree with it if that makes more sense. Truth is being around people who only see the worst in everything can be a drain and I say this as someone who has thoughts like that in the past.
Thanks, good points. Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying Ligotti/Rust is "right" but I do not think that views on existence are inherently black and white (as in, people who think "existence is good" are right, and those who think it's bad are wrong). I think pessimism is potentially just as valid as...well, most other worldviews are "optimist", regardless.
So it bothers me when people default to "Rust's worldview is so unrealistic/crazy/etc., it had to be a coping mechanism or delusion! Living is good!" That kind of statement is exactly what Ligotti decries.
The "you sound panicked" line from Hart has been quoted here, but I never believed Hart in that moment, even the first time I saw the episode. Rust DOESN'T sound panicked--at all. He delivers those lines as cool as can be. To me, that was more Hart being dismissive of something that bothered him, that maybe had some truth to it, which fits completely into his character.
Anyway, Rust's pessimism made his character more interesting to me, because it wasn't just a good vs evil, "light vs dark" conflict--there was the conflict of "forget light and dark--why be here at all?" inside of him. So, to me, the finale felt more of a reduction than a conclusion.
Watched this over the weekend. Really fantastic, but I felt the end was rather weak.
Just the whole twist was super obvious. I knew the moment he was introduced what would happen. That whole part of the series felt a little tired and stereotypical. Still suspenseful and a fantastic ride though. And yeah the overall conclusion and transformation/revelation of Rust was odd, but I guess you could just chalk it up to him being a weird ass guy to begin with and not really a person of true conviction just confrontational.
Which is why it's hard for me to buy the whole "Rust's worldview was a shallow, cheap coping mechanism" line, because that completely tosses out that particular worldview...even though it's a worldview that Pizza's idol espouses (the same idol he was accused of plagiarizing), and a worldview that is relied on, heavily, for Rust.
That's the thing, though. Ligotti seriously considers this as a possible solution to the suffering of the human race. He also directly addresses people who (inherently) assume this that notion is "crazy".
Pessimist philosophy may not be popular and may appear extreme, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate it.
You're right, I don't mean to discredit that school of thought entirely-- I think antinatalism is interesting to think about. But I think in the show Rust's understanding of it (and application of it to his life in the first time period of the series) is shown to be a melodramatic semi-misunderstanding, a mind state he puts himself in because it's easier than facing his situation head-on.
Reading your posts it seems I agree with you a lot more than I thought I did. I have no problem with people having a different reading, but even if your reading is that Rust's interpolation of Ligotti/Schopenhauer/whoever was true to himself and his revelations at the end were not I think you have to admit that the alternate reading, that his understanding was shallow and mere insulation, is also logical. asserting otherwise, like others (not you it seems) are doing comes off as buying into the generalities of a nihilist school of thought and then being pissed when it was flipped on its head
I have learned that Lolita Davidovich and Intruders star James Frain are joining the cast of the upcoming second season of HBOs True Detective as recurring. The second installment in the crime franchise revolves around three police officers, played by Colin Farrell, Taylor Kitsch and Rachel McAdams, and a career criminal (Vince Vaughn) who must navigate a web of conspiracy in the aftermath of a murder.
Davidovich will play
Kitschs mother Nancy Simpson, a girly girl, a former showgirl continually sucking on cigarettes and margaritas as she mourns the loss of male sexual attention. What little of her hopes remain she has transferred onto her adult son, who, in her eyes, is Gods gift to women.
Frain will play Jeff Hunt
, a ruthless police lieutenant.
In addition to Farrell, Kitsch, McAdams and Vaughn, Davidovich and Frain join fellow new cast additions Kelly Reilly, Michael Irby, Abigail Spencer and Leven Rambin.
I think Colin Farrell and Vince Vaughn are the only two that have been confirmed by HBO. The rest of them are just rumored, but it sounds like they're in.
Following his major recurring role on the final season of HBOs True Blood, I hear Riley Smith is returning to the pay cable network with a recurring role on True Detective. The second installment in the crime franchise revolves around three police officers, played by Colin Farrell, Taylor Kitsch and Rachel McAdams, and a career criminal (Vince Vaughn) who must navigate a web of conspiracy in the aftermath of a murder. Smith will play
McAdams boyfriend, Steve Mercier, a boyish Sheriffs deputy.
I know it won't air til July or so and principal photography has only recently started, but I wonder if there's any possibility for a teaser this year?
I know it won't air til July or so and principal photography has only recently started, but I wonder if there's any possibility for a teaser this year?
The Wire Alumna Michael Hyatt and Yara Martinez (Alpha House) are the latest additions to the cast of the upcoming second season of HBOs True Detective. Both will recur on the second installment in the crime franchise. Hyatt, repped by Robyn Bluestone Management, will play
driven state attorney Katherine Davis (previously Colleen Thompson) who is not afraid to keep secrets to get her way.
Martinez, repped by APA and D2 Management, plays
Andrea, a Mexican American immigrant who runs an inn.
She also is recurring on the CWs Jane the Virgin.
The eight-episode hour-long drama has begun production in California.
Logline: Three police officers and a career criminal must navigate a web of conspiracy in the aftermath of a murder.
The series is created and written by Nic Pizzolatto.
Justin Lin will direct the first two episodes.
Newly added cast:
Rachel McAdams as Ani Bezzerides
, a Ventura County Sheriffs detective whose uncompromising ethics put her at odds with others and the system she serves.
Taylor Kitsch as Paul Woodrugh
, a war veteran and motorcycle officer for the California Highway Patrol, running from a difficult past and the sudden glare of a scandal that never happened.
Kelly Reilly as Jordan
, Frank Semyons wife, a former D-list actress who is a full partner in his enterprises and ambitions.
Jon Lindstrom (Castle) is the latest to sign on for the upcoming second season of HBOs True Detective. Hell join Colin Farrell, Taylor Kitsch, Rachel McAdams and Vince Vaughn in the second installment of the crime franchise that revolves around three police officers (Farrell, Kitsch, McAdams) and a career criminal (Vaughn), who must navigate a web of conspiracy in the aftermath of a murder. Lindstrom, repped by BRS/Gage and Gordon Gilbertson, will play Glenn Ellinger, a patrician businessman who wears his immense power lightly, but wields it definitively. His previous TV credits include General Hospital, As The World Turns and Santa Barbara.
