• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

Todd Howard wants to see more reactivity in open world games rather than greater scale

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Sep 4, 2018
18,562
36,243
885
39
ok. i mean his games have demonstrated that he is working to the opposite end. Fallout 76 was more dumbed down than Fallout 4 was more dumbed down than Fallout 3. we are not seeing more systems, we are seeing less. we are seeing more corporate streamlining, GAAS, crowdsourcing systems to users rather than creating unique content. however it doesn't matter because the Fallout/Skyrim brand is too big to fail. they get away with buggy products that get more and more dumbed down because Todd Howard is a good PR guy and will say some inspiring bullshit from time to time that he will never implement, but which sounds good in an article.

pity there is no concrete news on any of the new games he is working on, instead we have to hear this tripe. imo he is a bs artist, nothing more. Skyrim 2 will be more dumbed down than Skyrim was. Nintendo is light years ahead of him in this specific dept.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: namekuseijin

Hugare

Member
Sep 8, 2019
869
1,944
445
If you're expecting Bethesda Game Studios to revolutionize open world games in today's gaming climate, then you're in for a rude awakening.

The best they can do is have better textures and dialogue trees. I don't see them fixing their inherent weaknesses when it comes to "reactivity" and actual proper A.I. systems to emulate a living breathing world.

Red Dead Redemption 2 is the benchmark for reactivity in open-world games.

Good luck achieving that with 300 employees only.
RDR 2 is totally not the benchmark for reactivity in open-world games

Rockstar bruteforce this by scripting LOTS of "random" encounters. They are all scripted.

"Oh that guy that I saved from that snake bite now gave me a weapon! How cool is that?"

Until you talk to your friends and realise that encounters that felt natural like these are all scripted. Than the illusion is gone.

Yeah you can have some animals attacking other animals and things like that, but you wont see some natives fighting against pinkertons in the open world, and then a bear comes in during the fight and kill the rest of the survivors

Far Cry 5 is probably the open world game with the most reactivity in that sense
 

Nymphae

Banned
Jun 3, 2013
14,670
22,901
1,235
Canada
Greater scale almost invariably just means longer travel/load times and more chore icons, it's a negative bullet point to me nowadays when they're like "this is X times the length of our last part time job!", oh great.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Sep 4, 2018
18,562
36,243
885
39
 
  • LOL
Reactions: EDMIX and Kuranghi

karasu

Member
Jun 7, 2004
17,546
252
1,595
VA
www.twitch.tv
is he talking about a more lifelike game world where people in the world respond to you, more banter, and overall interaction/immersion nstead of simply taking longer to get from point A to point B?
 

Alebrije

Member
Feb 25, 2010
9,988
1,967
1,125
Scale does not matters if your games are a glitch / microtransaction heaven.
 

Soodanim

Member
Feb 24, 2012
7,173
2,472
1,005
United Kingdom
Half of me thinks
Skyrim but things within that world at a higher quality sounds fantastic. I’d be very much up for that. Things like cities being behind a loading screen because of that gen’s consoles are things we shouldn’t have to face ever again.

The other half thinks
Since Skyrim they put a voiced protag in F4 and made F76, there’s work to do getting back on the right path first.
 
Jan 11, 2019
13,629
49,537
1,320
Tokyo, Japan
RDR 2 is totally not the benchmark for reactivity in open-world games

Rockstar bruteforce this by scripting LOTS of "random" encounters. They are all scripted.

"Oh that guy that I saved from that snake bite now gave me a weapon! How cool is that?"

Until you talk to your friends and realise that encounters that felt natural like these are all scripted. Than the illusion is gone.

Yeah you can have some animals attacking other animals and things like that, but you wont see some natives fighting against pinkertons in the open world, and then a bear comes in during the fight and kill the rest of the survivors

Far Cry 5 is probably the open world game with the most reactivity in that sense
Edit: I misunderstood the point.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hugare

Andodalf

Member
Oct 20, 2013
5,475
8,083
885
23
Earth
How bout enemies "reacting" to me smacking them with a great axe. Can we do that Todd?

Yeah how dare he say he wants to improve things when his game didn't already have those improvements in a game 9 years ago on the 360!
 

Kuranghi

Member
Apr 17, 2015
4,042
7,010
780
It would be a step up if they made the larger objects be interactible in the way small objects are, like Demon's Souls destructability but with persistence and physics interaction of the parts that make up the objects. I don't know if thats going to be possible in an open world game for a long, long time.
 

mansoor1980

Member
Oct 12, 2020
1,474
2,430
390
RDR 2 is totally not the benchmark for reactivity in open-world games

Rockstar bruteforce this by scripting LOTS of "random" encounters. They are all scripted.

"Oh that guy that I saved from that snake bite now gave me a weapon! How cool is that?"

Until you talk to your friends and realise that encounters that felt natural like these are all scripted. Than the illusion is gone.

Yeah you can have some animals attacking other animals and things like that, but you wont see some natives fighting against pinkertons in the open world, and then a bear comes in during the fight and kill the rest of the survivors

Far Cry 5 is probably the open world game with the most reactivity in that sense
farcry? it is a copy paste game
 

Kuranghi

Member
Apr 17, 2015
4,042
7,010
780
MiyazakiHatesKojima MiyazakiHatesKojima

I also don't understand what you are referring to when you say RDR2's world is the most reactive? I do think the physics of wagons, horses and NPCs during explosions is some of the best, but I'd wouldn't say thats the world being reactive really.
 

Zog

Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,109
3,706
460
Greater scale almost invariably just means longer travel/load times and more chore icons, it's a negative bullet point to me nowadays when they're like "this is X times the length of our last part time job!", oh great.
On the other hand, a world full of NPC's also means longer load times.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
Jan 31, 2018
5,614
5,663
740
Yeah how dare he say he wants to improve things when his game didn't already have those improvements in a game 9 years ago on the 360!
It's a matter of bad game design choices. Doesn't matter when the game came out. There were games like it that do a better job at it. Mind you, I'm not saying he's wrong for wanting more reactivity in open world games. I agree actually. However, there are some things i feel are equally if not more important to address.
 

Kuranghi

Member
Apr 17, 2015
4,042
7,010
780
Isn't reactive meaning immersive and reactive to a player's actions........

Oh.

Yeah but its not the environment in it that reacts. Its "just" the actors and vehicles, I think its amazing I'm not shitting on it, but I was thinking of something more like the objects in the world, like stuff on a table, or the actual buildings/map being affected by destruction like Just Cause or Red Faction in that way.

I'd just assume that physics interactions with actors and vehicles would get better, because you get that in many open world games. So I'd think Todd was talking about something actually new hopefully.

edit - I want to blow a hole in a castle wall with a spell or burn wood with fire, that kind of interaction upgrade. But higher fidelity than what we have now.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MiyazakiHatesKojima
Jan 11, 2019
13,629
49,537
1,320
Tokyo, Japan
Yeah but its not the environment in it that reacts. Its "just" the actors and vehicles, I think its amazing I'm not shitting on it, but I was thinking of something more like the objects in the world, like stuff on a table, or the actual buildings/map being affected by destruction like Just Cause or Red Faction in that way.

I'd just assume that physics interactions with actors and vehicles would get better, because you get that in many open world games. So I'd think Todd was talking about something actually new hopefully.
I see.

My bad then, I completely misunderstood the point lol :(
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kuranghi

Kuranghi

Member
Apr 17, 2015
4,042
7,010
780
Imagine you could use a spell to heat up the metal weapons in the enemies hands and they drop them but next time they have a mage and he drops a raincloud on his guys when you try to do that, or they have glass weapons instead (not sure that would make a difference actually, wood weapons? lol).

That + widespread destruction is the next step I think, its a CPU nightmare though I fear. For the AI + physics.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: mansoor1980

Hugare

Member
Sep 8, 2019
869
1,944
445
farcry? it is a copy paste game
So? It's a copy paste game with better interlinked systems than others.

Since Far Cry 3 you can see different factions fighting each other in the open world, with animals sometimes affecting the fight and etc.

You dont see shit like this in other open world games, and that's my point (and Todd's)

I usually hate FC games, but I admire them for those things.
 

elektrokats

Banned
Nov 15, 2019
133
380
315
It's kind of a vague statement. Like what does he mean exactly? Would I rather have shorter load times in favor for a smaller open world?

I'd rather have bigger scale in that case. But if he's referring to density and interactivity of the world vs going bigger. Then I'm all for it.
 

mansoor1980

Member
Oct 12, 2020
1,474
2,430
390
So? It's a copy paste game with better interlinked systems than others.

Since Far Cry 3 you can see different factions fighting each other in the open world, with animals sometimes affecting the fight and etc.

You dont see shit like this in other open world games, and that's my point (and Todd's)

I usually hate FC games, but I admire them for those things.
i dont hate them either but factions fighting each other with random external interference is nothing unique to farcry games.its been done before farcry 3
 

PotatoBoy

Neo Member
Nov 30, 2020
47
72
110
I think this is the right approach and is a good sign.

BotW showed the way. It was basically an unfinished tech demo, but Skyrim with highly interactive environments and more emergent and unexpected interactions between systems is the game they should be making.

Screw NPC dialogue. They are never going to get it right. Filling a world to the brim with random interesting stuff, where there is an understated 'mystery' to every person and every location, is what they do well and what they should keep doing. If they can combine what they know how to do with what has already been achieved and can be copied from BotW, they will have a winner.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soodanim

MiguelItUp

Gold Member
Feb 24, 2015
6,339
5,333
800
Cool, here's to hoping this causes ES VI's development to live by that as well.
 

Hugare

Member
Sep 8, 2019
869
1,944
445
i dont hate them either but factions fighting each other with random external interference is nothing unique to farcry games.its been done before farcry 3
I really can't remember of other open world games doing this

Can you name some?
 

PotatoBoy

Neo Member
Nov 30, 2020
47
72
110
I'd like to see less bugs in openworld games.

The problem with that request is that they have to tone down the complexity of the systems to make that happen.

If anything I'd argue that we want more dynamic interactions and consequently more bugs. Make it a mess, but a goddamn beautiful mess!

Would you really play Skyrim v2: same shit, less bugs? I doubt it.
 
Apr 19, 2019
9,180
15,106
780
Away with the fairies
Todd, forget about the reactivity, it's a molyneux shaped pipe dream.

Start by going cross genre. I want to play Skyrim-esque RPG's while being able to command armies ala 99 nights and Kingdom Under Fire for large-scale epic battles.

It's great being a one man hero. It's even greater commanding an army, as that one man hero.
 

Starfield

Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,948
6,537
905
If you're expecting Bethesda Game Studios to revolutionize open world games in today's gaming climate, then you're in for a rude awakening.

The best they can do is have better textures and dialogue trees. I don't see them fixing their inherent weaknesses when it comes to "reactivity" and actual proper A.I. systems to emulate a living breathing world.

Red Dead Redemption 2 is the benchmark for reactivity in open-world games.

Good luck achieving that with 300 employees only.
Lol
 

mansoor1980

Member
Oct 12, 2020
1,474
2,430
390
todd will do his own thing and the next elder scrolls game will be a mega hit and we will all buy it, the dude has that marketing AURA
 

Yoda

Member
Jun 17, 2011
3,946
1,086
855
The problem with that request is that they have to tone down the complexity of the systems to make that happen.

If anything I'd argue that we want more dynamic interactions and consequently more bugs. Make it a mess, but a goddamn beautiful mess!

Would you really play Skyrim v2: same shit, less bugs? I doubt it.

Let's look at their more recent offering instead of something nearly a decade old. FO:76 was a more massive more interaction rich game by all the traditional marketing hype... and is a considerable worse game. A well polished product where the ground floor devs are given time to make a good game > cramming in more systems when they can't supply the ones they already offer correctly.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
Jan 31, 2018
5,614
5,663
740
I like how he leaves it to the imagination what he actually means by "Reactivity". People in this thread are making their own guesses and assumptions, but he never really illustrates what reactivity is. He says he wants to see systems...working together...? What does that even mean? Can we have an example?
 
  • LOL
Reactions: mansoor1980

Monkeygourmet

Member
Jul 8, 2019
1,013
2,530
480
Something that would be cool is starting a game like Elder Scrolls and an army is marching on a town in real-time.

After say, 20 days they arrive at the town and lay siege yet you could attempt to level up in those 20 days and try and turn the tide of battle.

If you discovered the marching army first you could maybe pick off little parts of them at night, assassinating key generals to weaken their attacking force and spreading fear into the camp.

Or, you could completely miss this part entirely and turn up after the battle and see a town laid to waste.

That’s the kind of thing I want to see.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NightTerror

PumpkinPie

Member
Dec 6, 2008
6,615
360
1,110
United Kingdom
I strongly agree with him. We can't just keep making games bigger and better looking without making improvements to gameplay. It feels like we've been stuck with the same games since the 360/ PS3, just with shinier graphics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 64bitmodels