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[cireza]

The Saturn defense force is out as expected and re-writing history. Like Sega didn't scramble to add more chips or it was more powerful than the PS1 for 3D. It was a very capable 2D machine, because Sega read the room wrong.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my Saturn and was fortunate to have most systems during that time.

But as usual, I always ask - where were all these Saturn lovers and warriors back in 1994-1998.

Any system no matter how powerful can have great games. Thats not the point of this thread. The point is Sega messed up countless times with the Saturn and I will never forgive them for leaving so many games in Japan, including Shining Force parts 2 and 3. Sega was more unsuccessful than successful as a home console manufacturer.

#DEEPFEARISGREAT

What is interesting with this post is how you suddenly forgot about the transparency topic, on which your obvious bad faith has been clearly displayed. It is not about defending something, it is about stating facts.

 

[nkarafo]

More bad faith arguments of things known since the 90s that are now challenged all over again like some backyard junior school fanboys fighting over their favorites by pulling things out of their asses for what reason or purpose exactly? Same for things like 3D being more important, it became more important by what Sony was marketing/peddling and the same goes for the whole not following 3d "standards" with Saturn stuff given they were not at all standard at those pioneering and experimental times (as others said Saturn was quite similar to Sega arcade machines in architecture, just obviously vastly inferior as it didn't cost thousands of dollars). And even so, Saturn was the 2nd most powerful for 3D console by a large margin from the 3rd and much smaller margin from the 1st (especially while both lived) with plenty beautiful 3D games, with or without transparencies. Folks focusing on an all things considered OK port of an outdated by the time arcade game like VF and ignoring that within the year there were way more amazing releases on par with anything on PS (including multi plats with smaller differences than between PS360 ports) are being silly/disingenuous.

All of this for me?

 

[drganon]

It was more difficult to program for, didn't do 3d as well as its competitors, initially cost more, didn't have enough games in its library to appeal to the western market, and had an absolute mess of a launch in the us. It did very well in Japan, but was doa everywhere else.

Anecdotally, I never knew anyone growing up who had one. Everyone either had a ps1 and or n64.

 

[cireza]

It was more difficult to program for, didn't do 3d as well as its competitors, initially cost more, didn't have enough games in its library to appeal to the western market, and had an absolute mess of a launch in the us. It did very well in Japan, but was doa everywhere else.

Anecdotally, I never knew anyone growing up who had one. Everyone either had a ps1 and or n64.

This is a fair summary in my opinion.

In France I did have quite a few friends with the console. Europe was a pretty strong market for SEGA so moving to Saturn felt a bit more evident to many of us, after having played on Master System and MegaDrive.

 

[RoboFu]

Can someone explain to me if the Saturn could do transparencies, why do I see nothing but Mesh everywhere I look?

Also, Einhander was great then and now. Needs a sequel.

It was more to do with how the Saturn rendered quads instead of triangles. Any skew of the quad would cause a draw overlap when drawing the pixels. This would make a real transparency look messed up. so that’s why you would see a mix of real transparency for object that could be drawn using a square.

But also to save money you could import triangle meshes an add a duplicate point on each triangle to make it a quad. This was popular for Saturn ports but also caused the Saturn to have to push harder to run the same game as the PS as it always was calculating more vertex. This also caused transparencies to be even more messed up.

So a dithered solution helped the lost performance and solve the pixel overlap issue.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Problem was there was too much arcade games approach that you could finish in 30 minutes + hw architecture wasnt best for 3d pipeline and development was harder than on psx. Still has good memory with this console tough

 

[Ozzie666]

It was more to do with how the Saturn rendered quads instead of triangles. Any skew of the quad would cause a draw overlap when drawing the pixels. This would make a real transparency look messed up. so that’s why you would see a mix of real transparency for object that could be drawn using a square.

But also to save money you could import triangle meshes an add a duplicate point on each triangle to make it a quad. This was popular for Saturn ports but also caused the Saturn to have to push harder to run the same game as the PS as it always was calculating more vertex. This also caused transparencies to be even more messed up.

So a dithered solution helped the lost performance and solve the pixel overlap issue.

Honest question because I don’t know for sure. Did Sega arcade boards use quads or traditional polygon approach? If not just another strange choice.

Thanks for the mesh clarification.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Model 2 didn't have hardware support for transparencies, play any Model 2 game and see mesh transparent effects.

 

[Team Andromeda]

But as usual, I always ask - where were all these Saturn lovers and warriors back in 1994-1998.

Saturn was a fantastic system, it could do really could 3D and brilliant 2D.

The main issue was the 32X and giving the next-gen Sonic project to SEGA America and STI. Both were utter cock ups and what really cost SEGA
Rushing out Daytona USA never helped, but it wouldn't be SEGA system with out a rushed out Arcade port on it at some stage

 

[BlackTron]

Doesnt hurt to try to see if it works.
Remember there are options like the pseudo saturn to play "backups" - as well as ODE solutions.

For cables: you can use an xbox one, ps2, dreamcast power cable on the saturn.
For AV (composite, scart, component) im pretty sure youll need a saturn specific cable.

Yeah the power is very generic, the A/V is what slowed me down. It really looks so beat up I was afraid I'd get a Saturn A/V for no reason, lol. And then I'd have to handle the games and then too the whole deal with the cart slot/memory, I just wanted to wait until I had the time/headspace to learn about it, get exactly what I need to do it the right way and it never happened.

The only time I played Saturn back in the day was at my cousins place a few times, Virtua Fighter Kids left a big mark on me. It was before N64 even came out and I was still maining SNES. I was HUGE on Genesis and Dreamcast but just completely missed the boat on this one. Yet as a Sega fan I need to hold on to it and maybe I will get bored one day lol

 

[UnNamed]

The Saturn defense force is out as expected and re-writing history.

Some people take any discussion on Saturn personally as if you insult their mother.

You can say Saturn was a disaster of a machine and at the same time a very complementary machine with unique software, but for some reason... Saturn was the top of the top, topper (cit.) and even flaws were features.

 

[Team Andromeda]

What is interesting with this post is how you suddenly forgot about the transparency topic, on which your obvious bad faith has been clearly displayed. It is not about defending something, it is about stating facts.

He's just trolling again...

 

[SmokedMeat]

The Saturn defense force is out as expected and re-writing history. Like Sega didn't scramble to add more chips or it was more powerful than the PS1 for 3D. It was a very capable 2D machine, because Sega read the room wrong.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my Saturn and was fortunate to have most systems during that time.

But as usual, I always ask - where were all these Saturn lovers and warriors back in 1994-1998.

Any system no matter how powerful can have great games. Thats not the point of this thread. The point is Sega messed up countless times with the Saturn and I will never forgive them for leaving so many games in Japan, including Shining Force parts 2 and 3. Sega was more unsuccessful than successful as a home console manufacturer.

#DEEPFEARISGREAT

Yeah, it’s mind blowing that there’s Saturn fans trying to create a false narrative to protect their plastic box. Especially when they were likely too young to have even experienced that time period as it happened.

Saturn was an awesome system. I’m sure as hell not going to lie about how things were though.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Think about why Sega never bothered to bring out a Saturn collection of games, like the countless Mega Drive collections that are out there, let alone a Saturn-mini...hell even in 2019 they could have brought out a Dreamcast mini...20th anniversary special

 

[cireza]

Think about why Sega never bothered to bring out a Saturn collection of games, like the countless Mega Drive collections that are out there, let alone a Saturn-mini...hell even in 2019 they could have brought out a Dreamcast mini...20th anniversary special

That's because their investment in retro projects such as these cannot go beyond 50$, so emulating Saturn and Dreamcast doesn't fit in the budget sadly. This is how much they care for the fanbase that still supported them when they were doing dumb things.

 

[StereoVsn]

I have some Saturn physical titles but most are Japanese versions. Started collecting late and Western prices are crazy. Also a lot of titles haven't made it out of Japan.

It's a cool system with some really great games. 2nd for me after PS1 in that gen. And some games are better on Saturn, especially fighting games.

Edit: 2D fighting games, btw, but sure about 3D ones.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I have the original copy on PSX but can't play it at the moment since I haven't the console hooked up anymore. And my PS3 only reads PAL discs and Einhander never got a EU release. But I'm gonna emulate it when I get my hands on the ROG Ally.

I went the extra mile and dusted off my PS3 and created a new JP account since my old one is lost. Bought a 1000yen voucher for 7 bucks, ok, i already had it on my old account but alas... the game cost only 650 ish anyway. So if you still have a PS3 its very possible to play it. Might score some more games off there now.

 

[RAIDEN1]

I went the extra mile and dusted off my PS3 and created a new JP account since my old one is lost. Bought a 1000yen voucher for 7 bucks, ok, i already had it on my old account but alas... the game cost only 650 ish anyway. So if you still have a PS3 its very possible to play it. Might score some more games off there now.

The other alternative is to get the PS3 that had backward compatibility, Einhander is the greatest shoot-em-up on the Playstation bar none....(apparently..)

 

[Fatnick]

Problem was there was too much arcade games approach that you could finish in 30 minutes + hw architecture wasnt best for 3d pipeline and development was harder than on psx. Still has good memory with this console tough

It's worth remembering that arcade games were traditionally the big sellers though. Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat were huge deals in 1992/1993 and they were followed up with a big push behind Killer Instinct the following year.

Arcade games were obviously still important but the speed at which arcade gaming lost its impetus as the driving force of the industry definitely hurt Sega more than anyone else.

Overall though, it's worth remembering that out of Atari, 3do, Sony, Sega and Nintendo, only Sony can say they had a good generation.

 

[existensmaximum]

As a Sega kid I was very disappointed with the Saturn. Well, blocky 3D graphics didn't appeal to me at all overall, and there were almost no games that appealed to me on the Saturn. That hasn't changed sadly, to me it has one of the worst game libraries of any console.

But that's just my taste, of course.

 

[RAIDEN1]

It's worth remembering that arcade games were traditionally the big sellers though. Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat were huge deals in 1992/1993 and they were followed up with a big push behind Killer Instinct the following year.

Arcade games were obviously still important but the speed at which arcade gaming lost its impetus as the driving force of the industry definitely hurt Sega more than anyone else.

Overall though, it's worth remembering that out of Atari, 3do, Sony, Sega and Nintendo, only Sony can say they had a good generation.

I wouldn't discount out Nintendo, yeah they weren't leading the pack like they were in the 80s...but games like Mario 64, Zelda, Wave-Race, Golden-Eye, still kept them in the game....somewhat a distant 2nd but not as far back as Sega were with the Saturn...

 

[Fatnick]

I wouldn't discount out Nintendo, yeah they weren't leading the pack like they were in the 80s...but games like Mario 64, Zelda, Wave-Race, Golden-Eye, still kept them in the game....somewhat a distant 2nd but not as far back as Sega were with the Saturn...

The Super Famicom kept 90% of the Famicom's market share in Japan. The N64 kept 32% of the Super Famicom's market. The failure of the N64 fundamentally changed Nintendo's relationship with the rest of the market (probably for Nintendo's benefit in the long run, mind you)

 

[Draxon Gamer]

1995 libraries were completely competitive, I'm going off memory for the US releases

No they were not.

People are trying to apply their retrospective opinions to the past and this is why people always factor in problems that, while may not have done Sega any favors, or not why Sega failed. The Saturn failed when the PS1 was having medium to large hits every other month with features games that were blowing up software sale at retail, while Segas feature games were not doing the opposite, it failed when the they couldn't get Genesis owners to move over and they leaked elsewhere, and Nintendo with the N64 managed to get SNES players to move to the N64 and for a a couple years, buy both, without much leakage, I'm talking about the west btw not Japan.

All you have to do is look at Sega's actions. Near the end of the year of the NA launch when Sega almost seemed competitive and Japan was doing well, Sega HQ pushed to use shipment numbers, already started making deals to bring games to other platforms like PC, and approved several pet projects to try and future proof the Saturn toward the competition because they clearly didn't like the numbers and where the trends were heading. This was late 1995, Sega has already lost it's lead in the US as the number 1 console manufacturer and had sunk a lot of money into failed projects before Crash Bandicoot even came out which was the first huge mainstream release on the console in the west that helped quickly push 2D to the backside. The N64 launched in the west later and cut Sega off. They had nothing by October to stay competitive and had already hemorrhaged sales and alienated older Sega fans who weren't interest in several of Sega's new properties.

1995 PS1:

• Battle Arena Toshinden Published By Sony timed before going cross platform
• Ridge Racer
• EA PGA Tour 1996
• Mortal Kombat 3 (Timed exclusive)
• WWF Wrestlemania (Timed Exclusive)
• XCOM
• Twisted Metal
• Tekken
• Wipeout
• Shockwave Assault
• NBA in the Zone
• Loaded (Timed exclusive)
• Primal Rage (timed exclusive)
• ESPN Games/1Extreme
• Jumping Flash

1995 Saturn:

• Clockwork Knight
• Daytona
• Bug
• Virtua Racing
• Virtua Cop
• Shinobi Legions
• Virtual Hydlide
• Astal
• Panzer Draggon
• Sega Rally
• Virtua Fighter
• Virtua Fighter Remix
• Virtua Fighter 2
• Clockwork Knight 2
• Double Switch

The difference was staggering, especially if you remove retrospective lens going back to the library, at the time this features lineup wasn't running the engine. Genesis fans actually has more connection and familiarity with the games the PlayStation had in 1995 than the Saturn, which also included in the west, US specifically, 3 Virtua Fighter games less than 8 months. People weren't interested in the direction Sega was going at the time and Sega knew this because they were trying to get ahead of the reality setting in, but they couldn't manage it.

The first few months of 1996 before August wasn't helping either:

Early 1996 PS1:

• Decent
• Return Fire
• Resident Evil
• Toshinden 2 (timed exclusive)
• Namco Museum volume 1
• Darkstalkers 1
• Starblade
• NBA Live 96
• Jumping Flash 2

Early 1996 Saturn:

• Hang-On GP
• Guradian Heroes
• Night Warriors Darkstalkers Rev
• Panzer Dragoon 2
• X-Men Children of Atom
• Golden Axe the duel
• Legend of Oasis
• Virtua Fighter Kids

Before someone mentions niche games I didn't include I'm only going with games Sega and Sony featured games that sold to an audience. While many will go back to the Saturn and perhaps regret being too hard on it and may be fans of several games on it even in early releases, most Sega fans from before the Saturn still to this day don't have much interest in the Saturn at all. If we were back in 1995 and you were a fan of the Genesis Sega basically pushed you aside and their choice of games didn't work. Sega launch in NA in May 1995, and until December they couldn't prepare ahead for the next year and beyond to convince Genesis owners to buy a Saturn. The appeal and sales power of the PS1 lineup was a big problem back then, and outside of fans looking back in retrospect, still is a problem even among Sega fans of the Genesis in the west. There was a complete severance between the two groups of Sega fans back then.

People can talk about the Saturn being hard to develop for, lacking in some areas of 3D, even Sega spending money on further pet projects, but the Saturn failed before any of that. It was being pushed out of the market before Crash and the big boys released on the PS1, and was finished when the N64 launched and kept it up by getting SNES players to upgrade on the other side. At that point there was nothing they could do to reverse the trend.

I'm sure if Sega could have released the Dreamcast a year earlier they would have. They still got it out pretty early though because Sega already knew ahead of time it was pointless fighting to save the Saturn. Every other problem people bring up regarding the Saturn is just window dressing.

The Super Famicom kept 90% of the Famicom's market share in Japan. The N64 kept 32% of the Super Famicom's market. The failure of the N64 fundamentally changed Nintendo's relationship with the rest of the market (probably for Nintendo's benefit in the long run, mind you)

I believe he was referring to the US not Japan, which is why he listed games such as Golden-Eye. N64 did still lose around 40% of the SNES market but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Japan.

 

[cireza]

1995 Saturn:

• Clockwork Knight
• Daytona
• Bug
• Virtua Racing
• Virtua Cop
• Shinobi Legions
• Virtual Hydlide
• Astal
• Panzer Draggon
• Sega Rally
• Virtua Fighter
• Virtua Fighter Remix
• Virtua Fighter 2
• Clockwork Knight 2
• Double Switch

Early 1996 Saturn:

• Hang-On GP
• Guradian Heroes
• Night Warriors Darkstalkers Rev
• Panzer Dragoon 2
• X-Men Children of Atom
• Golden Axe the duel
• Legend of Oasis
• Virtua Fighter Kids

It sure was hard to keep up with that many quality titles.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Can someone explain to me if the Saturn could do transparencies, why do I see nothing but Mesh everywhere I look?

https://mattgreer.dev/articles/sega...eplaces the first sprite's data in the buffer

Here’s an explanation that goes into good detail.

 

[cartman414]

Some people take any discussion on Saturn personally as if you insult their mother.

You can say Saturn was a disaster of a machine and at the same time a very complementary machine with unique software, but for some reason... Saturn was the top of the top, topper (cit.) and even flaws were features.

The PS1 had imperfect 3d itself, what with its lack of floating point math or z-buffering, to say nothing of its brute force approach to 2d.

Yes, the PS1 was a much more practical console for 2d, and its success is understandable, but its 3d hasn't stood the test of time much better than its contemporaries, and the Saturn at least had 2d that still stands out. All things that can be simultaneously true!

As far as the first line goes, we've had people simping for the PS1 and to a lesser extent the N64 while dumping on the Saturn. The reaction is natural.

 

[SkylineRKR]

No they were not.

People are trying to apply their retrospective opinions to the past and this is why people always factor in problems that, while may not have done Sega any favors, or not why Sega failed. The Saturn failed when the PS1 was having medium to large hits every other month with features games that were blowing up software sale at retail, while Segas feature games were not doing the opposite, it failed when the they couldn't get Genesis owners to move over and they leaked elsewhere, and Nintendo with the N64 managed to get SNES players to move to the N64 and for a a couple years, buy both, without much leakage, I'm talking about the west btw not Japan.

All you have to do is look at Sega's actions. Near the end of the year of the NA launch when Sega almost seemed competitive and Japan was doing well, Sega HQ pushed to use shipment numbers, already started making deals to bring games to other platforms like PC, and approved several pet projects to try and future proof the Saturn toward the competition because they clearly didn't like the numbers and where the trends were heading. This was late 1995, Sega has already lost it's lead in the US as the number 1 console manufacturer and had sunk a lot of money into failed projects before Crash Bandicoot even came out which was the first huge mainstream release on the console in the west that helped quickly push 2D to the backside. The N64 launched in the west later and cut Sega off. They had nothing by October to stay competitive and had already hemorrhaged sales and alienated older Sega fans who weren't interest in several of Sega's new properties.

1995 PS1:

• Battle Arena Toshinden Published By Sony timed before going cross platform
• Ridge Racer
• EA PGA Tour 1996
• Mortal Kombat 3 (Timed exclusive)
• WWF Wrestlemania (Timed Exclusive)
• XCOM
• Twisted Metal
• Tekken
• Wipeout
• Shockwave Assault
• NBA in the Zone
• Loaded (Timed exclusive)
• Primal Rage (timed exclusive)
• ESPN Games/1Extreme
• Jumping Flash

1995 Saturn:

• Clockwork Knight
• Daytona
• Bug
• Virtua Racing
• Virtua Cop
• Shinobi Legions
• Virtual Hydlide
• Astal
• Panzer Draggon
• Sega Rally
• Virtua Fighter
• Virtua Fighter Remix
• Virtua Fighter 2
• Clockwork Knight 2
• Double Switch

The difference was staggering, especially if you remove retrospective lens going back to the library, at the time this features lineup wasn't running the engine. Genesis fans actually has more connection and familiarity with the games the PlayStation had in 1995 than the Saturn, which also included in the west, US specifically, 3 Virtua Fighter games less than 8 months. People weren't interested in the direction Sega was going at the time and Sega knew this because they were trying to get ahead of the reality setting in, but they couldn't manage it.

The first few months of 1996 before August wasn't helping either:

Early 1996 PS1:

• Decent
• Return Fire
• Resident Evil
• Toshinden 2 (timed exclusive)
• Namco Museum volume 1
• Darkstalkers 1
• Starblade
• NBA Live 96
• Jumping Flash 2

Early 1996 Saturn:

• Hang-On GP
• Guradian Heroes
• Night Warriors Darkstalkers Rev
• Panzer Dragoon 2
• X-Men Children of Atom
• Golden Axe the duel
• Legend of Oasis
• Virtua Fighter Kids

Before someone mentions niche games I didn't include I'm only going with games Sega and Sony featured games that sold to an audience. While many will go back to the Saturn and perhaps regret being too hard on it and may be fans of several games on it even in early releases, most Sega fans from before the Saturn still to this day don't have much interest in the Saturn at all. If we were back in 1995 and you were a fan of the Genesis Sega basically pushed you aside and their choice of games didn't work. Sega launch in NA in May 1995, and until December they couldn't prepare ahead for the next year and beyond to convince Genesis owners to buy a Saturn. The appeal and sales power of the PS1 lineup was a big problem back then, and outside of fans looking back in retrospect, still is a problem even among Sega fans of the Genesis in the west. There was a complete severance between the two groups of Sega fans back then.

People can talk about the Saturn being hard to develop for, lacking in some areas of 3D, even Sega spending money on further pet projects, but the Saturn failed before any of that. It was being pushed out of the market before Crash and the big boys released on the PS1, and was finished when the N64 launched and kept it up by getting SNES players to upgrade on the other side. At that point there was nothing they could do to reverse the trend.

I'm sure if Sega could have released the Dreamcast a year earlier they would have. They still got it out pretty early though because Sega already knew ahead of time it was pointless fighting to save the Saturn. Every other problem people bring up regarding the Saturn is just window dressing.

I believe he was referring to the US not Japan, which is why he listed games such as Golden-Eye. N64 did still lose around 40% of the SNES market but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as Japan.

Sony actually struck gold with the Mortal Kombat 3 deal. It wasn't even a good port (the fucking load times), but closer to the arcade than 16-bit. It was a 2D game, but MK3 was with the 16 bit crowd the most anticipated fighter. I believe it was the best selling 32-bit game of 1995 in Europe. It was the game that managed to migrate SNES and MD users. The most faithful version was only on PSX.

After this, Sega locked UMK3 for themselves on 32-bit, which is the superior version of MK3. But by then the hype was down. I think UMK3 barely did anything despite the game being way better. MK3 was also getting old by this time.

But I think the worse 3D did contribute to its failure. These 2 systems were compared side by side, they were also displayed in stores side by side. If you run both Daytona and RR its apparent that RR looked more appealing. Factor in the higher price tag Saturn had and it was an easy choice for consumers. I think this is how it went. Ofcourse, not having much software that would attract Genesis owners didn't help matters too. Worse, Sega didn't keep their word about this sytem. They would support it and see it as an important pillar, but by early 1996 the Genesis was pretty much done for. I still had one and while SNES went on (partially because of the N64 delay), there was almost nothing to look forward to. 32-bit systems were unaffordable for youngsters over here (being 400-500 euros each when they launched, when converted) I knew many who actually bought a cheap SNES (which was priced at 100 or less) with DKC2, Killer instinct et al.

 

[nkarafo]

Model 2 didn't have hardware support for transparencies, play any Model 2 game and see mesh transparent effects.

Yes but at the same time Model 2 was higher resolution, which made the meshes look less distracting.

Saturn's low resolution, highly pixellated graphics and very sharp video output made a bad combination with those dithering meshes.

Think about why Sega never bothered to bring out a Saturn collection of games, like the countless Mega Drive collections that are out there, let alone a Saturn-mini...hell even in 2019 they could have brought out a Dreamcast mini...20th anniversary special

Emulating the complex Saturn hardware accurately enough probably needs something a bit more powerful than whatever bottom of the barrel chips they use in those mini consoles. Thus more expensive. You can't expect from publishers to be anything less than as cheap as possible with their retro projects.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Yes but at the same time Model 2 was higher resolution, which made the meshes look less distracting.

Saturn's low resolution, highly pixellated graphics and very sharp video output made a bad combination with those dithering meshes.

Still doesn't change the fact that Model 2 didn't have any hardware support for Transparent effects and had to use Mesh transparency. Given Saturn's VDP2 hardware transparent layers, Saturn could do transparent effects actually better in some cases.

Mesh effects were everywhere on the so-called most powerful 3D system around at the time, all captured from real Model 2 hardware





Same issues for Model 1








Sometimes people who bash Saturn haven't the 1st clue, even if SEGA had GM make a Saturn chipset and based it on Model 1 or 2 You'll have mesh effects, Quads and multi CPUs (Model 1 alone has over 4 DSP chips,)

 

[nkarafo]

Mesh effects were everywhere on the so-called most powerful 3D system around at the time

What do you mean "so called". It was indeed the most powerful system in 1993/94.

Sometimes people who bash Saturn haven't the 1st clue, even if SEGA had GM make a Saturn chipset and based it on Model 1 or 2 You'll have mesh effects, Quads and multi CPUs (Model 1 alone has over 4 DSP chips,)

Not sure how pointing out things i don't like about a system = bashing it.

Yeah, i don't like dithering. I don't like it on the Model 2 either. It's a pretty bad graphical shortcoming. Which is why i'm thankful i had my consoles plugged with an RF/Composite back in the day. I would hate my Mega Drive if it looked like how it does on a modern emulator without dithering blending filters/shaders.

Maybe i'm wrong but the Saturn transparency dithering was too "chunky" to be able to blend itself with an RF/Composite cable? I don't have an old CRT TV right now to test this.

 

[Team Andromeda]

What do you mean "so called". It was indeed the most powerful system in 1993/94.




Not sure how pointing out things i don't like about a system = bashing it.

Yeah, i don't like dithering. I don't like it on the Model 2 either. It's a pretty bad graphical shortcoming. Which is why i'm thankful i had my consoles plugged with an RF/Composite back in the day. I would hate my Mega Drive if it looked like how it does on a modern emulator without dithering blending filters/shaders.

Maybe i'm wrong but the Saturn transparency dithering was too "chunky" to be able to blend itself with an RF/Composite cable? I don't have an old CRT TV right now to test this.

Namco might beg to differ and a system so powerful... yet the 3DO did better 3D transparencies
Let's face it SEGA didn't look to prioritise colour layering given how the Mega Drive, Model 1, Model 2 and Saturn had issues in those dept's

So it makes me laugh when I see people bash Saturn for having just the same issues as Model 2 for quads and mesh transparency effects. At least the Saturn did have the VDP2 transparent playfields so you could get nice transparent effects like this



Some nice transparent effects and even some nice 3D too for all you Saturn haters and bashers. When used it wasn't a bad system at all.

 

[nkarafo]

So it makes me laugh when I see people bash Saturn for having just the same issues as Model 2 for quads and mesh transparency effects.

Right...

If the Saturn was anywhere near as powerful as the Model 2, nobody would bash it for whatever negatives it might had. It would come alive and eat your cereal every day and everyone would still love it.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Right...

If the Saturn was anywhere near as powerful as the Model 2, nobody would bash it for whatever negatives it might had. It would come alive and eat your cereal every day and everyone would still love it.

I'm sure people would when needing to pay £16,000 for a console mate.

 

[nkarafo]

I'm sure people would when needing to pay £16,000 for a console mate.

But you do understand why nobody was bashing the Model 2 because it couldn't do transparencies.

 

[Team Andromeda]

But you do understand why nobody was bashing the Model 2 because it couldn't do transparencies.

But do you understand that if SEGA asked £16,000 per Saturn console it could have polygon performance beyond any console out there

 

[nkarafo]

But do you understand that if SEGA asked £16,000 per Saturn console it could have polygon performance beyond any console out there

I'm not sure why you are comparing the Saturn to the Model 2 in the first place. Your argument was that we shouldn't criticize the Saturn for being harder to do transparencies because the Model 2 also had a similar problem. Who cares though? Nobody would compare the two. They would compare the Saturn to the Playstation and that was the only comparison that mattered.

 

[Mahnmut]

Kinda agree with the rewriting history and the fact that where were these people back when it mattered to buy the system?

I was there back in the day (I was 16), I wanted a Saturn because I loved Sega arcade games. But let's face it: VF1 was nowhere near the arcade version and let's not even talk about that botched Daytona USA port. Everybody went for the Playstation because 3D was all the rage and everyone (including me) was super impressed with Ridge Racer, the almost perfect Tekken port, Wipe Out, Destruction Derby...

Sure, Sega launched way better ports after a while (Virtua Cop, VF2...) but I almost want to say that it was already too late. First impression stayed strong: in the eye of the public PS1 was a beast, and where the future of video games will happen, Saturn was behind. Some people didn't even know it got released (the same thing would happen with the DC later on).

 

[cireza]

 

[Team Andromeda]

I'm not sure why you are comparing the Saturn to the Model 2 in the first place. Your argument was that we shouldn't criticize the Saturn for being harder to do transparencies because the Model 2 also had a similar problem. Who cares though? Nobody would compare the two. They would compare the Saturn to the Playstation and that was the only comparison that mattered.

I'm simply saying that Model 2 did quads and had no hardware for 3D transparent effects, issues used to bash the Saturn. I'm sure some of the Model 2 fans didn't even know the system had to use mesh transparent effects and they're in every Model 2 game you can think of. I tire of the double standards when it comes to Saturn...

It was wrong for Saturn to use quads and mesh effects but fine for Model 2. It was wrong for the Saturn to cost more, be more difficult to programme for, have a poor launch lineup compared to its rivals, but that was ok for the PS2, PS3

The hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to Saturn bashing is something else...

 

[Team Andromeda]

I was there back in the day (I was 16), I wanted a Saturn because I loved Sega arcade games. But let's face it: VF1 was nowhere near the arcade version and let's not even talk about that botched Daytona USA port. Everybody went for the Playstation because 3D was all the rage and everyone (including me) was super impressed with Ridge Racer, the almost perfect Tekken port, Wipe Out, Destruction Derby...

I seem to remember a game called VF Remix coming out before Tekken and that if anything looked better than Tekken. And of course, Tekken was almost perfect it was running on a PS Arcade board. I was amazed how VF Remix was a perfect port, oh wait...

I'll give you RR was an amazing port mind and Daytona USA was rushed, but to SEGA's credit they fixed that with Rally just a few months after the USA launch with Rally


SEGA's big trouble was you had SEGA America wasting everyone's time and so much of SEGA resources and money with the 32X while also cocking up Sonic Xtreme. The most important Sonic game ever, given how SEGA was facing not Nintendo, but now also SONY.

 

[nkarafo]

I'm simply saying that Model 2 did quads and had no hardware for 3D transparent effects, issues used to bash the Saturn. I'm sure some of the Model 2 fans didn't even know the system had to use mesh transparent effects and they're in every Model 2 game you can think of. I tire of the double standards when it comes to Saturn...

It was wrong for Saturn to use quads and mesh effects but fine for Model 2. It was wrong for the Saturn to cost more, be more difficult to programme for, have a poor launch lineup compared to its rivals, but that was ok for the PS2, PS3

The hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to Saturn bashing is something else...

There are no double standards here. The Model 2 was an amazingly powerful system that could produce dazzling high res graphics, with plenty of detail, at 60 fps. People were too busy being impressed to nitpick about quads or transparencies.

The Saturn had none of the Model 2's positives but all of it's negatives. There wasn't anything to hold on so you can ignore it's shortcomings. The only thing it had going for it was it's reputation for being better at 2D... in a time where 3D was the next big thing.

That's why it makes no sense comparing these two, they are completely different cases.

 

[Mahnmut]

I seem to remember a game called VF Remix coming out before Tekken and that if anything looked better than Tekken. And of course, Tekken was almost perfect it was running on a PS Arcade board. I was amazed how VF Remix was a perfect port, oh wait...

I'll give you RR was an amazing port mind and Daytona USA was rushed, but to SEGA's credit they fixed that with Rally just a few months after the USA launch with Rally


SEGA's big trouble was you had SEGA America wasting everyone's time and so much of SEGA resources and money with the 32X while also cocking up Sonic Xtreme. The most important Sonic game ever, given how SEGA was facing not Nintendo, but now also SONY.

Tekken was in 94, VF Remix was in 95. I think Tekken is still more impressive than VF Remix (and running at 60fps).
Didn't realise the release of Sega Rally was so close after Daytona.

 

[cireza]

Tekken was in 94

So it released before the PS1 ? That's quite impressive.

Preferring Tekken to Virtua Fighter is a matter of taste anyway. The Saturn certainly wasn't lacking in great fighters. Obviously Tekken is the series that had a shit-ton of TV ads and all, unlike VF.

 

[Mahnmut]

So it released before the PS1 ? That's quite impressive.

Preferring Tekken to Virtua Fighter is a matter of taste anyway. The Saturn certainly wasn't lacking in great fighters. Obviously Tekken is the series that had a shit-ton of TV ads and all, unlike VF.

PS1 was in 94 as well (in Japan).
I prefer VF to be honest, I was talking about visuals. Indeed, Saturn library is full of amazing fighting games.

EDIT : my bad, Tekken was released in 95 on PS1 (but still before VF Remix).

 

[Team Andromeda]

Tekken was in 94, VF Remix was in 95. I think Tekken is still more impressive than VF Remix (and running at 60fps).
Didn't realise the release of Sega Rally was so close after Daytona.

You did not play Tekken in 1994 on the PS console, so don't come it on that one. VF remix came out on Saturn before the PS even launched in the USA in both Japan and the USA/Pal. I'll give you the 60 FPS, but then VF remix was running in a higher res.
Sega Rally came to the USA in Nov a little 6 months after the Saturn USA launch. Like a said, a few months later

 

[Mahnmut]

You did not play Tekken in 1994 on the PS console, so don't come it on that one. VF remix came out on Saturn before the PS even launched in the USA in both Japan and the USA/Pal. I'll give you the 60 FPS, but then VF remix was running in a higher res.
Sega Rally came to the USA in Nov a little 6 months after the Saturn USA launch. Like a said, a few months later

I've edited my previous post due to the launch date mistake.

 

[cireza]

VF remix was running in a higher res.

This is what I was wondering. I had memories of it moving to high-res, while VF1 was indeed low-res. Remix was pretty good at the time. In Europe it came in a box with additional CG disc. Pretty nice package. I liked the new portraits as well, pretty cool.

 

[Team Andromeda]

This is what I was wondering. I had memories of it moving to high-res, while VF1 was indeed low-res. Remix was pretty good at the time. In Europe it came in a box with additional CG disc. Pretty nice package. I liked the new portraits as well, pretty cool.

It used the feature 1st talked about when SEGA Japan was showing off the OS/SG-L system Tools in March 1995, where Yu Suzuki said it was possible to have the VDP1 display at a different res to the VDP2 and that's what VF Remix did.
The characters are High Res while the backgrounds and the VDP2 floor are not. AM1 did a great job with the port, I think they also designed the ST-V tools too; IMO Die Hard Arcade is one of the looking Saturn 3D games with some of the best textures ever seen in a Saturn game.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Still doesn't change the fact that Model 2 didn't have any hardware support for Transparent effects and had to use Mesh transparency. Given Saturn's VDP2 hardware transparent layers, Saturn could do transparent effects actually better in some cases.

Mesh effects were everywhere on the so-called most powerful 3D system around at the time, all captured from real Model 2 hardware





Same issues for Model 1








Sometimes people who bash Saturn haven't the 1st clue, even if SEGA had GM make a Saturn chipset and based it on Model 1 or 2 You'll have mesh effects, Quads and multi CPUs (Model 1 alone has over 4 DSP chips,)

What if Sega had listened to Tom Kalinske and taken on the architecture which would later form the Ultra 64, (N64) surely that would have done away with the mesh effects? Also they say that at the time with the TVs you would have they wouldn't look as ugly as when you are looking at those textures now in all their HD glory...

 

[dave_d]

Sony actually struck gold with the Mortal Kombat 3 deal. It wasn't even a good port (the fucking load times), but closer to the arcade than 16-bit. It was a 2D game, but MK3 was with the 16 bit crowd the most anticipated fighter. I believe it was the best selling 32-bit game of 1995 in Europe. It was the game that managed to migrate SNES and MD users. The most faithful version was only on PSX.

After this, Sega locked UMK3 for themselves on 32-bit, which is the superior version of MK3. But by then the hype was down. I think UMK3 barely did anything despite the game being way better. MK3 was also getting old by this time.

I'm thinking the thing that hurt UMK3 was the fact before it came out Mortal Kombat Trilogy had been announced and was going to come out a 3-4 months later for the N64 and PSX. Not sure how MKT sold compared to MK3 though.