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[Hobbygaming]

Goty too. Ultimate game of the year 2018 by golden joystick awards. Dude, these awards are popularity contests if you haven't realized already.

Yeah sure lmao I've never played BOTW but objectively I understand that it's a great game though it may not be for me. You have to learn to be objective

 

[Kadayi]

Ok gameplay, shitty story and characters development . But TLOU 2 is graphically impressive so I guess it make it a masterpiece ?

^ Pretty much. I feel that the games defenders are so blinded by the veneer of the shiny graphics and animations, that that they can't see the problems of the game in terms of the inadequacy of games systems, coupled with the ludo-narrative dissonance. They basically reskinned the game play of the previous title, but introduced a narrative that just doesn't hold up all that well when the only options open to you are either sneak or kill, when you're ostensibly looking for a certain someone. You can grab innumerable WLF as your murder your way through Seattle, but you're apparently wholly incapable of questioning any of them as to Abby's whereabouts because that sort of information is only available in cut scenes.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Yeah sure lmao I've never played BOTW but objectively I understand that it's a great game though it may not be for me. You have to learn to be objective

I am extremely objective, which is why i understand that:
1 - Awards are popularity contests
2 - Theres a heavy bias towards visually impressive games
3 - Storytelling in mainstream gaming is still really behind.
Conclusion: a mainstream story driven AAA game with impressive visuals that does the bare minimum for a good story will probably gain a whole bunch of awards.

 

[Keihart]

Mate, i did plenty of research, and my conclusion is that its normal. Just because you watched a 1 hour video detailing how the AI works, dont think other games aren't putting just as much work.

yeah sure, as if didn't played the game or haven't had interest in other of my favorite games like MGS to knokw how they work. But whatever dude, i'm just calling you out on your bullshit, i don't intend to change your opinion.
Your opinion has no weight you clearly don't understand shit and are unwilling to.

 

[Hobbygaming]

I am extremely objective, which is why i understand that:
1 - Awards are popularity contests
2 - Theres a heavy bias towards visually impressive games
3 - Storytelling in mainstream gaming is still really behind.
Conclusion: a mainstream story driven AAA game with impressive visuals that does the bare minimum for a good story will probably gain a whole bunch of awards.

Lol that's not being objective

 

[DForce]

Jeah you just want it to be a good story which it isnt. You close your eyess from all the flaws within the story. You only want to see the good stuff. You avoid being realistic.

Thats how you fail before you even started.

I think there's flaws in the story.

Your post just failed and you didn't have anything to say after I pointed that out.

 

[Guilty_AI]

yeah sure, as if didn't played the game or haven't had interest in other of my favorite games like MGS to knokw how they work. But whatever dude, i'm just calling you out on your bullshit, i don't intend to change your opinion.
Your opinion has no weight you clearly don't understand shit and are unwilling to.

Do you think the opinion of anyone in this thread has any weight? There are randos in these sorts of forums who'll say shit like "HZD is one of the best stories of all time" or "Quantic Dream games are thoughtful an profound". No one here has any fucking credibility, "TLoU2 has of one of the best AI evah!!!!" Is just another dumb proclamation to the list.

 

[Hobbygaming]

^ Pretty much. I feel that the games defenders are so blinded by the veneer of the shiny graphics and animations, that that they can't see the problems of the game in terms of the inadequacy of games systems, coupled with the ludo-narrative dissonance. They basically reskinned the game play of the previous title, but introduced a narrative that just doesn't hold up all that well when the only options open to you are either sneak or kill, when you're ostensibly looking for a certain someone. You can grab innumerable WLF as your murder your way through Seattle, but you're apparently wholly incapable of questioning any of them as to Abby's whereabouts because that sort of information is only available in cut scenes.

99.9% of enemy encounters in TPS games are stealth or kill

 

[Hobbygaming]

Do you think the opinion of anyone in this thread has any weight? There are randos in these sorts of forums who'll say shit like "HZD is one of the best stories of all time" or "Quantic Dream games are thoughtful an profound". No one here has any fucking credibility, "TLoU2 has of one of the best AI evah!!!!" Is just another dumb proclamation to the list.

You wouldn't know because you haven't played it

 

[Guilty_AI]

Lol that's not being objective

Educate me on the ways of objectiveness then.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Goty too. Ultimate game of the year 2018 by golden joystick awards. Dude, these awards are popularity contests if you haven't realized already.

They're popular because people enjoy playing them hence being videogame of the year.

 

[Kadayi]

99.9% of enemy encounters in TPS games are stealth or kill

MGS5 would like a word.

But still. I'm amused at the idea that somehow that's a defence. Evolve.

 

[DForce]

They don't, they keep looking for you in the caution state which takes a loooong time to cool down. Only then they stop looking for you since they assume you're gone. I played the entire main story series since mgs1.

Evasion, caution, back to normal.

You even think MGS2 is on par with TLOU 2's AI?

 

[Keihart]

Do you think the opinion of anyone in this thread has any weight? There are randos in these sorts of forums who'll say shit like "HZD is one of the best stories of all time" or "Quantic Dream games are thoughtful an profound". No one here has any fucking credibility, "TLoU2 has of one of the best AI evah!!!!" Is just another dumb proclamation to the list.

You said basic, it's not basic. I didn't read anyone say the best ever.}
It is one of the best TPS combats out there tho just like U4 and it's AI it's a lot more than "basic"

 

[Guilty_AI]

You wouldn't know because you haven't played it

I know enough to not need to play it.

They're popular because people enjoy playing them hence being videogame of the year.

*and because they're heavily marketed.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Art is about shoving personal beliefs down people's throat.

said nobody ever

 

[Mister Wolf]

I know enough to not need to play it.


*and because they're heavily marketed.

Stop with the excuses.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Educate me on the ways of objectiveness then.

Understanding that just because you dislike a game doesn't mean that it's not good or great to the majority that play it. Your idea of a bad game doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else

 

[Hobbygaming]

MGS5 would like a word.

But still. I'm amused at the idea that somehow that's a defence. Evolve.

Ok that's 1. How many others?

 

[Guilty_AI]

Evasion, caution, back to normal.

You even think MGS2 is on par with TLOU 2's AI?

"SITUATIONAL AWARENESS"

 

[Guilty_AI]

Understanding that just because you dislike a game doesn't mean that it's not good or great to the majority that play it. Your idea of a bad game doesn't mean it's bad for everyone else

I understand that. I also understand that a large amount of people liking something doesn't make it good. I don't even think that is a bad thing considering i like my fair share of dumb stuff.

 

[DForce]

"SITUATIONAL AWARENESS"

lol.

Before I even talk about this.

Have you played the game?

 

[Guilty_AI]

You said basic, it's not basic. I didn't read anyone say the best ever.}
It is one of the best TPS combats out there tho just like U4 and it's AI it's a lot more than "basic"

The guy i was talking to when you came in clearly said it was "the most realistic and believable AI" though.

 

[Kadayi]

Ok that's 1. How many others?

Alpha Protocol had it as well IIRC but plain truth of the matter is, this idea that it's OK for a game to not evolve it's game play even when it makes zero sense and undermines the whole narrative in the process is thinking strictly for the birds. You're clearly easily pleased if all your require from games is merely more of the same in a shinier container. Some of us however want more.

 

[Guilty_AI]

lol.

Before I even talk about this.

Have you played the game?

Why would i waste $60 on a shitty game?

 

[DForce]

Why would i waste $60 on a shitty game?

Then you would know that their behavior is based on difficulty level.

No wonder you don't know what you're talking about in this thread. How can you judge an AI and you haven't even played the game?

 

[Kadayi]

Then you would know that their behavior is based on difficulty level.

No wonder you don't know what you're talking about in this thread. How can you judge an AI and you haven't even played the game?

Does the AI difficulty make the story somehow better?

 

[DForce]

Does the AI difficulty make the story somehow better?

The ability to comprehend the story is always set to very easy, but somehow most people still have a very difficult time understanding it.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Then you would know that their behavior is based on difficulty level.

No wonder you don't know what you're talking about in this thread. How can you judge an AI and you haven't even played the game?

As i said i could be wrong, however based on what i saw, my own experience with games and the opinion of reviewers whom i trust (that i know played the game on higher difficulties), i am 95% sure the AI and gameplay are all just 'fine'. Between all those things and what is being said by a bunch of fanatics desperatly trying to prop up this mediocre sequel without being able to point out anything that isn't just normal behaviour for this sort of game, i'll stick to my opinion.

 

[Kadayi]

The ability to comprehend the story is always set to very easy, but somehow most people still have a very difficult time understanding it.

LOL. I get the intent, I just don't care for the execution.

 

[Keihart]

As i said i could be wrong, however based on what i saw, my own experience with games and the opinion of reviewers whom i trust (that i know played the game on higher difficulties), i am 95% sure the AI and gameplay are all just 'fine'. Between all those things and what is being said by a bunch of fanatics desperatly trying to prop up this mediocre sequel without being able to point out anything that isn't just normal behaviour for this sort of game, i'll stick to my opinion.

Why die on this hill? why be so invested into claiming a game you didn't play it's bad based on other people opinions?
I understand someone playing it and thinking it's trash, then maybe the game wasn't for him or we value things differently, but you haven't even played it, expended money or have any other reason to have formed an opion about the game that it's worth a damn to anyone...so why even bother? shouldn't you be more worried about those games that you want to play or played and didn't like?

 

[Guilty_AI]

Why die on this hill? why be so invested into claiming a game you didn't play it's bad based on other people opinions?
I understand someone playing it and thinking it's trash, then maybe the game wasn't for him or we value things differently, but you haven't even played it, expended money or have any other reason to have forme and opion about the game that it's worth a damn to anyone...so why even bother? shouldn't you be more worried about those games that you want to play or played and didn't like?

My first comment was simply that you could form an opinion without playing the game, and apparently that bothered the defenders. Your logic also applies to you, why are you bothering trying to correct what is, ultimatelly, just the opinion of some internet rando? Personally i'm just killing a bit of time, and i'll probably stop bothering answering soon enough.

 

[DForce]

As i said i could be wrong, however based on what i saw, my own experience with games and the opinion of reviewers whom i trust (that i know played the game on higher difficulties), i am 95% sure the AI and gameplay are all just 'fine'. Between all those things and what is being said by a bunch of fanatics desperatly trying to prop up this mediocre sequel without being able to point out anything that isn't just normal behaviour for this sort of game, i'll stick to my opinion.

I'm sure you would stick to your own opinion..

However, I judge based on my own personal experience from playing the game, not what others have said. Objectively, this game has some of the best enemy AI in a stealth game. Anyone who thinks it's normal or bad can't even be trusted.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

I personally think that TLoU2 is a great game. If you don't agree, then whatever.

 

[Spaceman292]

If iam the boss and she insists, i would just tell her "No i need soldiers that can give me 100 %, you can only give me 20 %. Go home and get your baby first. You are a mother now. If you fall on it, if a bullet hits you there or anything else puts too much stress on you... your baby will be dead and you will be mentally dead after it too"

She wouldnt even be able to climb somewhere (what she does with the help of Abby), she wouldnt be able to walk long distances without resting... she even fell on her stomach while the game moved on... that would be the moment that the kid may die and she would have been out of action for the rest of her life.

I guess so. But that's a pretty small reason to dislike the entire game.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Alpha Protocol had it as well IIRC but plain truth of the matter is, this idea that it's OK for a game to not evolve it's game play even when it makes zero sense and undermines the whole narrative in the process is thinking strictly for the birds. You're clearly easily pleased if all your require from games is merely more of the same in a shinier container. Some of us however want more.

That's the thing. There's many additions to the game while keeping things similar enough to the 1st game. It's not just shinier graphics

 

[Kadayi]

That's the thing. There's many additions to the game while keeping things similar enough to the 1st game. It's not just shinier graphics.

Firstly why does it need to be similar? Secondly how do any of these (unstated) improvements outweigh the paucity of the games narrative coherence?

I mean it beggars belief that a determined group of trained soldiers would travel the distance they did to hunt down a particular man to enact revenge for the death of loved ones and then would just assume that having brutally killed him in front of his own flesh and blood and surrogate daughter that there would be absolutely no consequences or pay pack as a result of doing so. If you're that motivated, how much less so anyone else? No, you don't let them live. You quietly execute them, burn/bury the bodies and get the fuck out of there before the rest of Jackson comes a snooping. You sure as shit don't just let them go and at the very least you might wonder what the relationship was between Joel Miller and this young woman you have pinned down screaming bloody murder at you, especially when he was last known to you to be leaving Salt Lake City absconding with a Young Teenage Girl who could well be the cure of the Cordyceps Virus. I mean did no one in the surviving fireflies known Ellie's name? Did Marlene tell no one here name? Or was she just called Girl #1 or something.

Honestly. The revenge plot is fine, but the way in which it is executed undermines itself by opting for pulp melodrama at the cost of all reason and logic. Have Joel die. Have Joel die by Abby's hand. Have Ellie and Tommy witness it in some form, but for the love of all things holy, don't have it that they survive because they're let go, have it that they survive because of some form of intervention. Jesse, Dina and some other Jacksonites could appear, or a horde of infected attracted by all the commotion. Hell even an avalanche dividing them would be less incredulous versus 'Leave them..it will be fine'

 

[GeorgPrime]

I guess so. But that's a pretty small reason to dislike the entire game.

I have a lot more things i dont like about the game. There are a lot of parts that are bad in the story and the character build up.

After Ellie literally lost the second time to Abby i just hoped the game is over now. Then they drag the story further just for Ellie to lose a third time to Abby, which already was in a weakened state due to hanging on the wooden post.

It was a chore to even finish the game on the last part and i was just relieved when it was done. Never going to play it a second time

 

[aclar00]

For the Abby naysayers.

 

[Umbral]

This is... absolutely not true. TLOU is a game series that messes with player agency more than any other. It’s a fundamental part of the storytelling. Absolutely fine to criticise the game if you’ve played it, but if you’ve just watched videos, you have no idea what Naughty Dog were trying to accomplish. To properly understand their intent, you have to play the game, to understand how you are robbed of your own agency.

Critiquing a game (any game) without playing it, is like criticising a film having watched just the trailers.

You have minimal agency in The Last of Us. The only decision a player gets to make is how to approach an encounter with enemies. Everything else is on tracks. They use a lot of smoke and mirrors to create the illusion of non-linearity. That’s not a game, that’s a game that really wants to be a movie. This is made more apparent by observing how much effort they put into creating a challenging story and kept the gameplay nearly identical to the first game. They want to tell a story more than make a game. It’s wild to see someone advocate for the removal of agency to tell a narrative.

Also, I’ve played the game through 3 times now.

This couldn't be more wrong. In fact, the gameplay is the best part of TLOU 2

The game plays like TLOU1, with the addition of prone and jump. The gameplay is mediocre, so if that’s the best part, what’s that make the story?

 

[Umbral]

For the Abby naysayers.

That ol’ biddy is on test/steroids. You guys cannot be this ignorant. It’s fucking remarkable.

 

[FunkMiller]

You have minimal agency in The Last of Us. The only decision a player gets to make is how to approach an encounter with enemies. Everything else is on tracks. They use a lot of smoke and mirrors to create the illusion of non-linearity. That’s not a game, that’s a game that really wants to be a movie. This is made more apparent by observing how much effort they put into creating a challenging story and kept the gameplay nearly identical to the first game. They want to tell a story more than make a game. It’s wild to see someone advocate for the removal of agency to tell a narrative.

Also, I’ve played the game through 3 times now.

Yes. That’s the point. These games actively remove player agency, which is why it’s important to play them, because it’s such an important part of the narrative, and the player’s relationship to it. You don’t get to decide how the story plays out, but you’re still made to feel complicit in the actions your character undertakes.

And player agency doesn’t mean the act of playing a game, it’s about what decisions that game allows you to actively make on the part of the character you’re playing.

 

[Umbral]

Yes. That’s the point. These games actively remove player agency, which is why it’s important to play them, because it’s such an important part of the narrative, and the player’s relationship to it. You don’t get to decide how the story plays out, but you’re still made to feel complicit in the actions your character undertakes.

Didn’t work for me because it was obvious what they were trying to do and they didn’t win me over to Abby’s team and their side. I didn’t hesitate at all to bash Nora’s head in, and if given the choice Abby would be floating face up in the Pacific Ocean.

And player agency doesn’t mean the act of playing a game, it’s about what decisions that game allows you to actively make on the part of the character you’re playing.

I know, it’s both. Player choice. Decisions. The game part of a game.

 

[Clear]

You have minimal agency in The Last of Us. The only decision a player gets to make is how to approach an encounter with enemies. Everything else is on tracks. They use a lot of smoke and mirrors to create the illusion of non-linearity. That’s not a game, that’s a game that really wants to be a movie. This is made more apparent by observing how much effort they put into creating a challenging story and kept the gameplay nearly identical to the first game. They want to tell a story more than make a game. It’s wild to see someone advocate for the removal of agency to tell a narrative.

Also, I’ve played the game through 3 times now.

The game plays like TLOU1, with the addition of prone and jump. The gameplay is mediocre, so if that’s the best part, what’s that make the story?

When you're following up one of the most commercially and critically successful games of all time, why would you seek to reinvent the wheel? I mean its not like games in its genre, or even generally have evolved much at all since 2013!

Yours is the definition of a specious complaint. Its entirely superficial and essentially meaningless.

 

[Kev Kev]

that topic title

 

[Umbral]

When you're following up one of the most commercially and critically successful games of all time, why would you seek to reinvent the wheel? I mean its not like games in its genre, or even generally have evolved much at all since 2013!

They chose to “reinvent the wheel” with narrative, but not with the mechanics. The mechanics are copy/paste from 2013. This complaint can be directed at other games too. I’d love to see AAA studios taking more risks in the mechanics of their games.

Yours is the definition of a specious complaint. Its entirely superficial and essentially meaningless.

Explain.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Firstly why does it need to be similar? Secondly how do any of these (unstated) improvements outweigh the paucity of the games narrative coherence?

I mean it beggars belief that a determined group of trained soldiers would travel the distance they did to hunt down a particular man to enact revenge for the death of loved ones and then would just assume that having brutally killed him in front of his own flesh and blood and surrogate daughter that there would be absolutely no consequences or pay pack as a result of doing so. If you're that motivated, how much less so anyone else? No, you don't let them live. You quietly execute them, burn/bury the bodies and get the fuck out of there before the rest of Jackson comes a snooping. You sure as shit don't just let them go and at the very least you might wonder what the relationship was between Joel Miller and this young woman you have pinned down screaming bloody murder at you, especially when he was last known to you to be leaving Salt Lake City absconding with a Young Teenage Girl who could well be the cure of the Cordyceps Virus. I mean did no one in the surviving fireflies known Ellie's name? Did Marlene tell no one here name? Or was she just called Girl #1 or something.

Honestly. The revenge plot is fine, but the way in which it is executed undermines itself by opting for pulp melodrama at the cost of all reason and logic. Have Joel die. Have Joel die by Abby's hand. Have Ellie and Tommy witness it in some form, but for the love of all things holy, don't have it that they survive because they're let go, have it that they survive because of some form of intervention. Jesse, Dina and some other Jacksonites could appear, or a horde of infected attracted by all the commotion. Hell even an avalanche dividing them would be less incredulous versus 'Leave them..it will be fine'

It should be somewhat similar because it's a sequel. If they wanted to make a totally different game then they would have created a new IP instead.

And Idk if you've played it or not but the last thing I would've wanted was for Ellie to kill Abby at the end

 

[Hobbygaming]

You have minimal agency in The Last of Us. The only decision a player gets to make is how to approach an encounter with enemies. Everything else is on tracks. They use a lot of smoke and mirrors to create the illusion of non-linearity. That’s not a game, that’s a game that really wants to be a movie. This is made more apparent by observing how much effort they put into creating a challenging story and kept the gameplay nearly identical to the first game. They want to tell a story more than make a game. It’s wild to see someone advocate for the removal of agency to tell a narrative.

Also, I’ve played the game through 3 times now.


The game plays like TLOU1, with the addition of prone and jump. The gameplay is mediocre, so if that’s the best part, what’s that make the story?

Name me 5 third person shooters with better gameplay than TLOU 2 this generation

And the gameplay is so terrible that you somehow wanted to beat the game 3 times?

 

[Bartski]

They use a lot of smoke and mirrors to create the illusion of non-linearity.

where exactly are they trying to create an illusion of non-linearity? The single open world seattle section? Come on.
The game is perfectly linear, especially story- wise and it totally owns it.

Player choice. Decisions. The game part of a game.

Well sorry for being harsh but this is just silly. Your whole point is that the game doesn't give you macro-scale agency and decision making as to how the story pans out = bad.
Since you haven't noticed 99% of narrative action-adventure games follow a linear plot with all agency being in the moment to moment gameplay of combat and exploration.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But this is TLOU2 and it's being held to a completely different standard of scrutiny as I'm sure you're well aware, except for noticing your own part in it.

There are many games that give you control and choice of plot altering events and that's great, I love them just as much, all for different reasons. Cyberpunk, only 3.5 months from now.
So maybe you should simply look for something you enjoy elsewhere, instead of torturing yourself with playing through TLOU2 for the fourth time?

 

[Kadayi]

It should be somewhat similar because it's a sequel. If they wanted to make a totally different game then they would have created a new IP instead.

Yeah, that's not actually a counter point. That's merely a presumption on your part. Development studios iterate all the time with sequels in all manner of ways. The idea that somehow they have to deliver something akin to the same limited experience as before is strictly a comfort food eater mindset.

And Idk if you've played it or not but the last thing I would've wanted was for Ellie to kill Abby at the end

Nothing I wrote in that post even mentioned the ending , so why bring it up? Whether she does or doesn't kill Abby in the end is moot as far as I'm concerned because the plot went off the rails fairly early on.