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News Drama Clickbait The PS5-rivalling Samsung 980 Pro SSD is launching within two months

Kenpachii

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Time to debunk the "but muh special hardware" marketing spiel people bought hook line and sinker from Sony, with the horse's own words:





That's right. All of PS5 "special sauce" is barely worth a shitty intel core. LOL

Gonna be some harsh reality checks at launch.

Nvidia will probably take this over entirely and render it on there cuda cores for practically free ( pretty sure this already exists for a few years by now ), or do what they did with nvenc which equals 8 zen 2 cores rendering quality wise for streaming at 3% gpu performance cost. I could see this launch with 3000 series and probably could be supported with older series of cards as well at bigger performance impact.

Anyway, that is if PC even cares as ram absolute decimates the PS5 i/o bullshit those sony fanboys keep hammering on. Because lets be honest what else do they have left to brag about, its pretty bad when storage is your main focus to brag about. U would think that the showcase from sony gave them a wake up call.
 
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Mister Wolf

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tbf Sony allows non-prop ssd, but since they are using prop tech, you need a much faster and hence more expensive one.
At least 18 months from launch before the general population can buy 'affordable' >6gbs ssd expansion :messenger_grinning_sweat:

I'm waiting for Sony to list the price of the expansions they plan to sell or whoever the have partnered with to sell. This racket by them is nothing new.
 
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Kenpachii

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I'm waiting for Sony to list the price of the expansions they plan to sell or whoever the have partnered with to sell. This racket by them is nothing new.

They could introduce slower ssds which can be connected with USB and will be used to copy past game data on and off whenever people install a game it can be done locally etc at fast speeds this way.
 

Mister Wolf

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They could introduce slower ssds which can be connected with USB and will be used to copy past game data on and off whenever people install a game it can be done locally etc at fast speeds this way.

Yeah but that's nothing like having direct access to playing which we all know is what everyone wants. Microsoft already mentioned storing the next gen games on usb storage with the inability to play them from there.
 

Rikkori

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Nvidia will probably take this over entirely and render it on there cuda cores for practically free ( pretty sure this already exists for a few years by now ), or do what they did with nvenc which equals 8 zen 2 cores rendering quality wise for streaming at 3% gpu performance cost. I could see this launch with 3000 series and probably could be supported with older series of cards as well at bigger performance impact.

Anyway, that is if PC even cares as ram absolute decimates the PS5 i/o bullshit those sony fanboys keep hammering on. Because lets be honest what else can they do. U would think that the showcase from sony gave them a wake up call.

Yes, exactly, it has existed before on GPUs but just like with high speed SSDs (and other tech) it didn't matter much because development centers around consoles, so if those can't do it then it won't be done (unless you're a PC exclusive AND high-tech, of which I can't really think of any (released recently)).

The real magic happens with the compute shaders (also how Nanite is done in UE5) on the GPU and that's why it's going to take very few resources to achieve, and why the comparison in marketing is done vs CPU (which is the slower, archaic method). Most people just don't understand that you can get 10-100x the work done on GPU if you optimise for it vs CPU (but ofc not everything can be done that way).

That's why when they say "equivalent to X Zen 2 cores" it's meaningless, because you'd never really do it that way in the first place, but it sounds like insane performance.

It's just marketing banking on ignorance, and ofc - it works! :messenger_grinning_smiling:
 
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cyber69

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GHG

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Linus apologised for believing this. Watch his vid; its not just the ssd speeds but the whole I/O solution, priority levels etc.

Believing what? So I'm not allowed to look forward to a faster SSD hitting the market? I didn't write the article, nor the title BTW.

These SSD threads man...

 
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Aidah

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Some people are just so dense, like PC gamer here. In terms of gaming and I/O, what PC needs to catch up on isn't its theoretical R/W speeds for this component.

Anyway, something like this will probably end up in my PC.
 
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GHG

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Time to debunk the "but muh special hardware" marketing spiel people bought hook line and sinker from Sony, with the horse's own words:





That's right. All of PS5 "special sauce" is barely worth a shitty intel core. LOL

Gonna be some harsh reality checks at launch.

Sounds nice but who is this guy? Does he work at Epic?
 

Rikkori

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Sounds nice but who is this guy? Does he work at Epic?

He works at RAD Game tools, it's the storage middleware Sony's using (Kraken, oodle etc).

Meanwhile PS5 can do 22GB/s without using a single fucking core. A PC would need 5 cores to decode what PS5 hardware decompression block can do.

No, it doesn't. It's going to do it on the GPU at basically no cost. The CPU is used just for illustration. Read the whole convo.
 
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Tripolygon

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Time to debunk the "but muh special hardware" marketing spiel people bought hook line and sinker from Sony, with the horse's own words:





That's right. All of PS5 "special sauce" is barely worth a shitty intel core. LOL

Gonna be some harsh reality checks at launch.
Actually it is exactly worth 5 Intel cores just for decompression alone.
 
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billyxci

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Wait, so you're telling me these consoles will be outdated in the same year they release? Looooooool.

I'm gonna skip PCIE 4.0 because honestly I think a good 3.0 drive will be fine for another 2-3 years. I'll wait for 5.0 so I can get speeds up to 14GB/s :D
 
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DoctaThompson

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Actually it is exactly worth 5 Intel cores just for decompression alone.
Ps5 can sustain 22gbps throughout, for extended periods of time? And all games will have decompression sustained at those speeds? Something tells me you have no clue how to answer that truthfully without making up something hypothetical. Also a single core from a lower clocked cpu, from 5 years ago is doing this, so imagine what updated cpu's, with plenty of cores could do.
 
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Tripolygon

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He works at RAD Game tools, it's the storage middleware Sony's using (Kraken, oodle etc).



No, it doesn't. It's going to do it on the GPU at basically no cost. The CPU is used just for illustration. Read the whole convo.
Doing it on a GPU is still costing GPU while on PS5 no cost to the CPU or GPU.
 
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Rikkori

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Doing it on a GPU is still costing GPU while on PS5 no cost to the CPU or GPU.

Maybe. The question is how much it costs, which we don't know yet but luckily PC has GPU horsepower up the wazoo, so it's no biggie. Or it could cost nothing, what people don't know is Nvidia is HUGE in this space & that's why they spent billions & billions on Mellanox, because focus on storage is a big deal for servers, and ofc that trickles down to PC as well:

  • 2x-8x higher bandwidth with data transfers directly between storage and GPU.
  • Explicit data transfers that don’t fault and don’t go through a bounce buffer are also lower latency; we demonstrated examples with 3.8x lower end-to-end latency.
  • Avoiding faulting with explicit and direct transfers enables latency to remain stable and flat as GPU concurrency increases.
  • Use of DMA engines near storage is less invasive to CPU load and does not interfere with GPU load. The ratio of bandwidth to fractional CPU utilization is much higher with GPUDirect Storage at larger sizes. We observed (but did not graphically show in this blog) that GPU utilization remains near zero when other DMA engines push or pull data into GPU memory.
  • The GPU becomes not only the highest-bandwidth computing engine but also the computing element with the highest IO bandwidth, e.g. 215 GB/s vs. the CPU’s 50 GB/s.
  • All of these benefits are achievable regardless of where the data is stored – enabling very fast access to petabytes of remote storage faster than even the page cache in CPU memory.
  • Bandwidth into GPU memory from CPU memory, local storage, and remote storage can be additively combined to nearly saturate the bandwidth into and out of the GPUs. This becomes increasingly important and data from large, distributed data sets is cached in local storage, and working tables may be cached in CPU system memory and used in collaboration with the CPU.

Don't sleep on Nvidia. ;)
 

Tripolygon

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Maybe. The question is how much it costs, which we don't know yet but luckily PC has GPU horsepower up the wazoo, so it's no biggie. Or it could cost nothing, what people don't know is Nvidia is HUGE in this space & that's why they spent billions & billions on Mellanox, because focus on storage is a big deal for servers, and ofc that trickles down to PC as well:
Maybe? Everything has a cost, you are either doing it on the CPU, GPU or a bespoke ASIC. On PC, you are either doing it on the CPU or GPU, on PS5 it is done on an ASIC that is stupidly good at it. FYI, if you are buying a CPU that is good at compression and decompression. Buy Ryzen, it is stupidly good at that. All the other shit i snipped out has fuck all to do with this discussion. Nobody is sleeping on Nvidia, every laptop i've owned has had an Nvidia GPU including the one i'm using right now.

 
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Tripolygon

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Ps5 can sustain 22gbps throughout, for extended periods of time? And all games will have decompression sustained at those speeds? Something tells me you have no clue how to answer that truthfully without making up something hypothetical. Also a single core from a lower clocked cpu, from 5 years ago is doing this, so imagine what updated cpu's, with plenty of cores could do.
Since we are a fan of Fabian Giesen. Yes PS5 can indeed sustain 22GB/s, because it is not output bound but input bound.


He himself says right there that PS5 hardware implementation is substantially faster than software implementation on PC. Your updated PC is not going to do it better than a bespoke ASIC built specifically to do it well.

 
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Rikkori

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Since we are a fan of Fabian Giesen. Yes PS5 can indeed sustain 22GB/s, because it is not output bound but input bound.


He himself says right there that PS5 hardware implementation is substantially faster than software implementation on PC. Your updated PC is not going to do it better than a bespoke ASIC built specifically to do it well.

Pay attention to what you're reading. Mermaid/selkie is the done with the CPU (and it's also a different type of compression), so it's slower than asic or rather, it require a lot of CPU power in order to reach that level (which ofc it still can). What we're talking about is Kraken + Oodle, which is (will be) done on GPU compute shaders (including on the PS5!), and that's what's gonna rival what's done with the PS5. Secondly, PC will have much faster SSDs (in fact, does have) so the ratio will still be higher on PC. Third, bcpack might end up being even faster than Oodle anyway, so that's yet a further advantage of PC, for games that don't use Oodle. And keep in mind, we haven't yet tested the advantage of what more ram & vram does, which will ofc be a further boon for PC!


 

HushiMushi

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Pay attention to what you're reading. Mermaid/selkie is the done with the CPU (and it's also a different type of compression), so it's slower than asic or rather, it require a lot of CPU power in order to reach that level (which ofc it still can). What we're talking about is Kraken + Oodle, which is (will be) done on GPU compute shaders (including on the PS5!), and that's what's gonna rival what's done with the PS5. Secondly, PC will have much faster SSDs (in fact, does have) so the ratio will still be higher on PC. Third, bcpack might end up being even faster than Oodle anyway, so that's yet a further advantage of PC, for games that don't use Oodle. And keep in mind, we haven't yet tested the advantage of what more ram & vram does, which will ofc be a further boon for PC!



wait, what about this though:





I thought it will take years for PC to catch up, no?
 
Jan 7, 2018
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Time to debunk the "but muh special hardware" marketing spiel people bought hook line and sinker from Sony, with the horse's own words:





That's right. All of PS5 "special sauce" is barely worth a shitty intel core. LOL

Gonna be some harsh reality checks at launch.
Oh wow so put 2 in raid0 as op mentioned and you have ~13000 MB/s on PC and that makes ps5 i/o not so special anymore :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 

Rikkori

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wait, what about this though:


I thought it will take years for PC to catch up, no?


Just the typical bullshit. Pay attention to how he offers up no numbers as a counter-argument and instead just generalises. That's why when we said PC already has faster storage the pivot was immediately to say "no bro, we talking holistically about the system" and bla bla. No facts & no numbers, just vague abstractions. It's the same playbook as when ppl looked at Ratcher & C and said 'omg this was only possible because PS5 SSD is so fast', but meanwhile you can look at its loading portals and see that all it would require is an extra second on the other platforms (if even) and yet some people treat that extra second as meaning the game would be unrealisable on slower SSDs.

That's why I say, when you see no numbers & methodology then call bullshit, because it's 99% chance it is.
 
Jan 16, 2020
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Just the typical bullshit. Pay attention to how he offers up no numbers as a counter-argument and instead just generalises. That's why when we said PC already has faster storage the pivot was immediately to say "no bro, we talking holistically about the system" and bla bla. No facts & no numbers, just vague abstractions. It's the same playbook as when ppl looked at Ratcher & C and said 'omg this was only possible because PS5 SSD is so fast', but meanwhile you can look at its loading portals and see that all it would require is an extra second on the other platforms (if even) and yet some people treat that extra second as meaning the game would be unrealisable on slower SSDs.

That's why I say, when you see no numbers & methodology then call bullshit, because it's 99% chance it is.

"I don't understand or agree with it therefore its bullshit"

Is basically your argument :messenger_tears_of_joy:

The I/O barriers on PC are accepted even within the PC enthusiasts circle, yet you're still denying it. Amazing
 
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kruis

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That PC SSD is faster, u can't deal with straight facts is your problem. The PS5 SSD = 5,5gbps that samsung one is 6,5gbps. It's that simple.

A 6.5 GB/s SSD drive is not fast enough for the PS5, it needs to be at least 7 GB/s because PC SSD drives don't have enough priority levels.
 

RaySoft

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Since we are a fan of Fabian Giesen. Yes PS5 can indeed sustain 22GB/s, because it is not output bound but input bound.


He himself says right there that PS5 hardware implementation is substantially faster than software implementation on PC. Your updated PC is not going to do it better than a bespoke ASIC built specifically to do it well.

That's where the 22GB/s throughput comes in, a guarantee that the decoder will never become the bottleneck.
 

Tripolygon

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Pay attention to what you're reading. Mermaid/selkie is the done with the CPU (and it's also a different type of compression), so it's slower than asic or rather, it require a lot of CPU power in order to reach that level (which ofc it still can). What we're talking about is Kraken + Oodle, which is (will be) done on GPU compute shaders (including on the PS5!), and that's what's gonna rival what's done with the PS5. Secondly, PC will have much faster SSDs (in fact, does have) so the ratio will still be higher on PC. Third, bcpack might end up being even faster than Oodle anyway, so that's yet a further advantage of PC, for games that don't use Oodle. And keep in mind, we haven't yet tested the advantage of what more ram & vram does, which will ofc be a further boon for PC!
You have no clue what you are talking about so let me help you out. Mermaid, Seiki and Leviathan are the higher compression siblings to Kraken. They all have higher compression ratio but slightly slower decode speed compared to Kraken except for Leviathan. Kraken and all its siblings are decoded on CPU on PC and consoles except for PS5. This is how daft you are and blinded by your fanboy you are grasping at straws to find something that will be better than PS5 so you jump between PC and BCPack which is part of XSX texture compression block not PC so how's is it going to help PC? What can be decoded on CPU or GPU is BCn compressed texture which Oodle textures 'primes' before compressing further. Your RAM and VRAM plays no part in this as they already have bandwidth far exceeding how fast the data can be decoded. The bottleneck how fast can you decode a kraken stream from a storage into RAM, this part PS5 wins every time. Until something better comes along which nothing has yet. Linus tried this by using a RAID SSD and had to apologize. You can try again.


Your PC is never going to be better at this than PS5 simply because PS5 has a bespoke ASIC made to do the decode of the compressed kraken stream which your PC will have to do on CPU. What can be decoded on GPU is the Oodle BCn compressed texture which is the native GPU supported texture format that can be done via GPU compute shader.
 
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JimboJones

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Isn’t the XsX supposed to come with proprietary storage expansion ? :sick: 🤮
You think that’ll will be cheap? Hahahahahahahaha
Something you cant use for anything else besides the XsX :messenger_tears_of_joy:
In all fairness your probably not going to be hotswapping the PS5 SSD between different devices either.
You buy an SSD and it's most likely going to live in your PS5 for the rest of it's lifespan.
 

Tripolygon

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It is typical for pr heads to lie like it's nothing.
When you post a Xmedia type conspiracy thinking it makes the other person look bad but you end up looking like an idiot.

Never buy into conspiracy theories. If we conclude that company heads are lying all the time then we cannot believe anything anyone says ever from any company. Not Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, AMD, Nvidia or in this particular case Rad Games Tools. Afterall we can never take their word for it since we don't have independent sources to verify their claims.
 
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DESTROYA

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In all fairness your probably not going to be hotswapping the PS5 SSD between different devices either.
You buy an SSD and it's most likely going to live in your PS5 for the rest of it's lifespan.
That’s not the point but you could if you wanted too.
No reason why you couldn’t repurpose something if you you actually could. There is no way to do that with proprietary storage.
 
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JimboJones

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That’s not the point but you could if you wanted too.
No reason why you couldn’t repurpose something if you you actually could. There is no way to do that with proprietary storage.

I'm just saying both have their pros and cons.
Xbox solution from what I understand can be more portable in there here and now, won't be be able to repurpose it but at least you can use it between Xbox devices which is a pretty good use case.

Storage capacity and cost are going to be costly either way, though it's possible the more standard nvme solution will come down in price quicker as they become more and more common.
 
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Tripolygon

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That’s not the point but you could if you wanted too.
No reason why you couldn’t repurpose something if you you actually could. There is no way to do that with proprietary storage.
I think he means pulling out the SSD and putting it in another PS5 and continue playing your games. You can hot swap external storage on PS4 so who knows?

Edit: beaten
 
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ZywyPL

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I take these aren't going to be cheap?


You do know you can live with only one kidney, right?

This.

I wonder if AMD/Intel will somehow work something comparable into their newer gen mobo/architecture designs.

Why would they want/need to? The PCs don't have any problems at all with running games at 60, 120, 144 FPS, as oppose to console's yet again 30FPS, people ore overhying the PS5 SSD and I/O so much it's not even funny, what did it translates into? Current-gen 30FPS games, except at 4K, and maybe some RT, bot both are possible thanks to the GPU,not the SSD.

Time to debunk the "but muh special hardware" marketing spiel people bought hook line and sinker from Sony, with the horse's own words:





That's right. All of PS5 "special sauce" is barely worth a shitty intel core. LOL

Gonna be some harsh reality checks at launch.

If the recent show wasn't a reality check already, then some people cannot ever be helped.
 
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Rikkori

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You have no clue what you are talking about so let me help you out. Mermaid, Seiki and Leviathan are the higher compression siblings to Kraken. They all have higher compression ratio but slightly slower decode speed compared to Kraken except for Leviathan. Kraken and all its siblings are decoded on CPU on PC and consoles except for PS5. This is how daft you are and blinded by your fanboy you are grasping at straws to find something that will be better than PS5 so you jump between PC and BCPack which is part of XSX texture compression block not PC so how's is it going to help PC? What can be decoded on CPU or GPU is BCn compressed texture which Oodle textures 'primes' before compressing further. Your RAM and VRAM plays no part in this as they already have bandwidth far exceeding how fast the data can be decoded. The bottleneck how fast can you decode a kraken stream from a storage into RAM, this part PS5 wins every time. Until something better comes along which nothing has yet. Linus tried this by using a RAID SSD and had to apologize. You can try again.


Your PC is never going to be better at this than PS5 simply because PS5 has a bespoke ASIC made to do the decode of the compressed kraken stream which your PC will have to do on CPU. What can be decoded on GPU is the Oodle BCn compressed texture which is the native GPU supported texture format that can be done via GPU compute shader.

Wow, you got so triggered you steer straight off the cliffs. No worries, I can break it down for you again so that others may learn.

* Kraken and all its siblings are decoded on CPU on PC and consoles except for PS5.
- Right except what you don't point out is what a miniscule amount of work will be done with kraken rather than oodle. That's why it doesn't matter, because it does too little work in terms of streaming which is what the problem we're looking to solve is.

* PC and BCPack which is part of XSX texture compression block not PC so how's is it going to help PC
- Because it will be available on PC as well. Look it up.

* Your RAM and VRAM plays no part in this
- Of course they do, because the problem is that of streaming and ram + vram will help with that. Unlike consoles we also have RAM and more storage in general, so we're not as reliant on the SSD for streaming. That's why PC is gonna be faster. Remember - we can put the whole game on the ramdisk if we so wish.

* The bottleneck how fast can you decode a kraken stream from a storage into RAM, this part PS5 wins every time
- Huh? I never specified what system I'm talking about so how could the PS5 win "every time"? Or did you forget we're not limited to 8 cores on PC?

* Linus tried this by using a RAID SSD and had to apologize.
- Linus tried to cuck himself, and he succeeded. It's tough having to depend on irate fanboys for your viewership, but has nothing to do with me nor the facts about PC solutions.

* Your PC is never going to be better at this than PS5 simply because PS5 has a bespoke ASIC made to do the decode of the compressed kraken stream which your PC will have to do on CPU.
- Oh great, PCs have peaked, someone should've told me. Alexa, play despacito.

* What can be decoded on GPU is the Oodle BCn compressed texture which is the native GPU supported texture format that can be done via GPU compute shader.
- Right, and that's 80% of the work that needs to be done, i.e what's actually important. If you don't know what % is done with Kraken then the fact that it's faster on PS5 is meaningless (and it isn't faster, because again, I can add more & faster cores).


What you're saying is not false but it's not truthful because it doesn't provide proper context. It's like Sweeney talking about there being better low-level access when developing on a console vs a PC - True, but also meaningless because the difference is measured in nano-seconds and therefore imperceptible to the end-user.