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[64bitmodels]

So some of you may know this youtuber called Dark Space. He's pretty well known for making videos on GTA and Rockstar, on the worlds in thsoe games, their gameplay, and what can be done to make them better. However recently he has branched off into more general gaming content and the result is videos like this:



He's made a video basically on the topic of swinging in Spider Man games, from the PS1 game to now with Miles Morales. in the latter half of the video he specifically compares the swinging of the PS2 game to Spider Man 2018 and both of their pros and cons. I highly recommend you watch the video but for the other 90% of GAF who don't have the time, here's a TLDW
-Spiderman 2018 has better interactivity with the environment, animations and visuals but fails to replicate the true freedom of swinging
-Spiderman PS2 has worse interactivity but the swinging control that game has is unparalleled, you could do whatever you want with the webs you were given
-the best solution is to include a standard and advanced swinging control scheme for both groups of players who perfer whichever form of swinging, which if spiderman 2 includes, he feels will make it the 'perfect spider man game'

 

[ProtoByte]

-Spiderman 2018 has better interactivity with the environment, animations and visuals but fails to replicate the true freedom of swinging
-Spiderman PS2 has worse interactivity but the swinging control that game has is unparalleled, you could do whatever you want with the webs you were given

Well then, we've found the better system. Freedom doesn't mean much if most of what you're free to do is janky crap. Go back and play Spider-Man 2'04 and bet that anything close to that system pleases anyone in 2023.

Anyone who offers "solutions" in this while making comparisons loses credibility when they don't even mention Web of Shadows. That game doesn't have the animation flair or the same extent of fluidity as Insomniac's, but it does have a larger degree of freedom while also looking and feeling good. Much more of an argument there. I'm willing to say it's objectively better than Spider-Man 2, because it is.

-the best solution is to include a standard and advanced swinging control scheme for both groups of players who perfer whichever form of swinging, which if spiderman 2 includes, he feels will make it the 'perfect spider man game'

No, it isn't. Armchair developers can be fhe absolute worst sometimes.

You don't just create two completely different systems of traversal for a game that heavily relies on said traversal in 2022. Neverminding the logistical and resource problems that kind of thing entails in modern development, it's a complete design faux pas. Environments are meticulously designed to accommodate complex traversal systems like Spider-Man. It also will (probably) overlap with the combat system. What he's suggesting is idiotic.

Of course there are things to improve, but he's got it completely wrong. The "solution" for Insomniac's Spider-Man 2 is to smooth out the physics calculations, add more animations both manual and contextual, increase the speed (confirmed to have been limited by the PS4's HDD) and generally build on what they did between 2018 and Morales. In taking inspiration from any game, it should be Web of Shadows.

Being first doesn't mean it's best, and Maguire Spider-Man 2 is an aggressively 2004 game. Other than "hey, maybe web swinging should have physics", there's nothing much more to learn from it that they haven't already.

 

[jorgejjvr]

Swinging in spiderman 2 is still better, there was something about using both triggers

 

[Flabagast]

I agree that the swinging in Spider man 2018 could feel a tad automatic : ie mainly Spidey can let go of the web while you are still holding R2 if you are moving forward at the peak of the jump, which is really bothering

 

[diffusionx]

-the best solution is to include a standard and advanced swinging control scheme for both groups of players who perfer whichever form of swinging, which if spiderman 2 includes, he feels will make it the 'perfect spider man game'

Ugh, no thanks. I want to play games designed by people. Design is, by definition, making choices.

I personally think Spiderman 2018 had very good swinging. I was totally fine with what they did.

 

[bender]

While Spider Man 2 is impressive it can be punishing and I don't think that's what most players are looking for in their super hero power fantasy games. That's why all the automation exists in 2018 and its probably a large reason for why that game sold so well.

 

[Larxia]

I also prefered the old "physical based" system. The swinging does "look" really good in the new games, the animations are incredible and it's super smooth, but because of how automated it is, I don't really get any thrills out of it.

Good traversal system are in my opinion better when they require you to be good at it for it to look good, it's more satisfying to pull off some crazy stuff if it comes from you.
For example in the old games, you could die from fall damage, and therefore it's a lot more satisfying to swing at the last moment, because there is a risk and you're playing with the risks.
It's always the sense of danger that makes things like extreme sports thrilling, if you remove it all, it's not rewarding anymore and it loses its adrenaline.

Outside of what I just said, I also think the old system was more interesting because you could experiment with it, always try new things, which is something you can't do in the new games, it's more scripted and you're not actually playing with the physics.
I also think it looks too floaty, like when you throw your web, you can see that spidey will actually start going forward before the web actually touches anything, you can see his movements aren't related to the webs, which is quite annoying and it feels wrong.

It's still a game that looks fantastic and it was fun to play, but it really lacks something to make it really satisfying to me. I think Sunset Overdrive was a lot better on that.

 

[Batiman]

Ya it’s like the climbing in uncharted. Looks great and is fun for a bit but feels to automatic. I’d rather it look a bit janky at the cost of more freedom and control.

Sort of like horse riding in Elden ring. It doesn’t look as real as something like red dead or Witcher but it’s a lot more fun in the long run as I feel I have full control of the game.

This is what I admire about Japanese developers over western devs. They’re willing to show some jank for the better overall experience. Then again in a world where everyone rips apart everything that isn’t exactly “realistic” I can see why devs choose to go for realism.

 

[Warablo]

Spiderman 2 had the best swing physics.

 

[Swift_Star]

It’s fine the way it is because it works. They realized moving around town shouldn’t feel like work and shouldn’t be hard. It’s better than ever.

 

[01011001]

you can't make a modern AAA game anymore that doesn't have these safety net mechanics sadly I think.
so there's no way Insomniac will bother implementing a pro swinging mode... most people who play games like these these days are absolute casuals, and that's the audience most games are designed for today

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

As much as I like the swinging in the latest spiderman games, I do miss the webs actually attaching to buildings and the options to hold on to them as long as I wanted.

 

[March Climber]

It's nearly impossible to convince Spiderman 2 players that the swinging in it had flaws that could have been improved(and arguably was in 2018). Even if you manage to form a reasonable counterpoint, all arguments fall flat to the impervious walls of childhood and nostalgia.

Instead, I think it's better to leave it be and state that without Spiderman 2, Amazing Spiderman, Web of Shadows, and Shattered Dimensions taking the risks that they did, Spiderman 2018 wouldn't have been as great as it was. It was a culmination of the previous Spiderman games before it and ended up being arguably the best form of that culmination.

In other timeline, Activision would have screwed up the job. Again.

 

[Vick]

That was a good video. Don't necessarily agree with every point, but I do think there's room for improvement. We'll see with SM2 and PS5-allowing speed.

you can't make a modern AAA game anymore that doesn't have these safety net mechanics sadly I think.

so there's no way Insomniac will bother implementing a pro swinging mode... most people who play games like these these days are absolute casuals, and that's the audience most games are designed for today

97% user rating on Steam..

Nice to see you can't live for more than 5 minutes without rethoric and hyperboles.

 

[phil_t98]

its a game, its meant to be fun not like what would happen in real life

 

[Swift_Star]

you can't make a modern AAA game anymore that doesn't have these safety net mechanics sadly I think.
so there's no way Insomniac will bother implementing a pro swinging mode... most people who play games like these these days are absolute casuals, and that's the audience most games are designed for today

Most people are casuals at everything they do and that's fine.

 

[64bitmodels]

I’d rather it look a bit janky at the cost of more freedom and control.

Judging by how it's insomniac I'm sure they'd find a way to make it look not jank and flow nicely

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Judging by how it's insomniac I'm sure they'd find a way to make it look not jank and flow nicely

Have they made anything that's physics based before?

 

[Markio128]

Fuck off. Nobody wants to play Elden Swing.

 

[hyperbertha]

its a game, its meant to be fun not like what would happen in real life

Auto pilot = fun?? The spiderman swing system is trash. Ps2 had way better controls and way more feel of momentum.

 

[64bitmodels]

Ps2 had way better controls and way more feel of momentum.

You can go fast in Spiderman 2018 if you take advantage of the abilities the game gives you, you don't have to lose momentum

 

[hyperbertha]

You can go fast in Spiderman 2018 if you take advantage of the abilities the game gives you, you don't have to lose momentum

its not the speed, its that in ps2 spiderman felt like he had weight. His animations conveyed this. In ps4 he feels like he is a paper. No animations that convey momentum, just lightweight floaty animations.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Ya it’s like the climbing in uncharted. Looks great and is fun for a bit but feels to automatic. I’d rather it look a bit janky at the cost of more freedom and control.

Sort of like horse riding in Elden ring. It doesn’t look as real as something like red dead or Witcher but it’s a lot more fun in the long run as I feel I have full control of the game.

This is what I admire about Japanese developers over western devs. They’re willing to show some jank for the better overall experience. Then again in a world where everyone rips apart everything that isn’t exactly “realistic” I can see why devs choose to go for realism.

I’m a little confused by your examples because Red Dead Redemption 2’s horse mechanics are beyond anything else in the industry.

Elden Ring is by far the automated horse riding experience. There’s no depth to it.

 

[Roberts]

Swinging was fine in the new one. The first ten minutes were truly awe-inspiring. It's only after you have been playing for 20 hour or so it got old. Mostly because it is more or less automatic. That's probably why I finished the main story and never came back to it.

 

[Swift_Star]

The spiderman swing system is trash.

Worst and most hyperbolic hot take ever.

 

[ProtoByte]

Good traversal system are in my opinion better when they require you to be good at it for it to look good, it's more satisfying to pull off some crazy stuff if it comes from you.
For example in the old games, you could die from fall damage, and therefore it's a lot more satisfying to swing at the last moment, because there is a risk and you're playing with the risks.
It's always the sense of danger that makes things like extreme sports thrilling, if you remove it all, it's not rewarding anymore and it loses its adrenaline.

Not all of this should apply to Spider-Man, but I take the points.

I think this is a much better video on this topic overall:

 

[Robbinhood]

I would love more physics based swinging, more momentum and "Fear" when dropping from great heights. And the ability to die if you don't swing in time from a high fall. Most of all I really want them to utilize the SSD.

 

[rodrigolfp]

No Ultimate Spider-man! -_-'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

 

[R6Rider]

The only thing I really didn't like in 2018's swinging was the weird animation when you start swinging after doing a long/fast dive. It's like you slow down and float for a moment as the web shoots out.

 

[Nvzman]

So some of you may know this youtuber called Dark Space. He's pretty well known for making videos on GTA and Rockstar, on the worlds in thsoe games, their gameplay, and what can be done to make them better. However recently he has branched off into more general gaming content and the result is videos like this:



He's made a video basically on the topic of swinging in Spider Man games, from the PS1 game to now with Miles Morales. in the latter half of the video he specifically compares the swinging of the PS2 game to Spider Man 2018 and both of their pros and cons. I highly recommend you watch the video but for the other 90% of GAF who don't have the time, here's a TLDW
-Spiderman 2018 has better interactivity with the environment, animations and visuals but fails to replicate the true freedom of swinging
-Spiderman PS2 has worse interactivity but the swinging control that game has is unparalleled, you could do whatever you want with the webs you were given
-the best solution is to include a standard and advanced swinging control scheme for both groups of players who perfer whichever form of swinging, which if spiderman 2 includes, he feels will make it the 'perfect spider man game'

I like how you make a good topic to spur discussion off, but then all the responses are "PS2 PHYSICS ARE JANK SO ITS SHIT WHO WOULD PLAY IT" or "PS4 SWINGING FUCKING SUCKS PS2 WAS BETTER" when you have the answer to both of these literally in the OP.

Just have a basic/advanced swinging mode, just like the original Spider-Man 2 did! That way, both sides are pleased. You pick basic and get more automation and flows more evenly, or you pick advanced and get the opportunity for more speed and more control/abilities with swinging that have a higher skill ceiling.

I think both games have good swinging but Spider-Man 2 is still the peak. Its legitimately the only amazing thing about the game. I'm seeing people say Web of Shadows or Ultimate Spider-Man had better swinging which are both just odd. Web of Shadows had really weirdly floaty swinging (didn't really have the heavy physics SM2 did) and lacks a lot of the abilities you had in SM2 like charging a jump out of a swing. Ultimate Spider-Man is even more basic, its literally just SM2's webswinging with the charge jump and sprint button completely removed as well as the ability to swing on two webs.

 

[64bitmodels]

Personally I agree the swinging could and should be less automated, mainly for gaining speed. The speed of Spiderman 2018 was limited by the ps4 hdd so if Spiderman 2 is exclusive to ps5, this means the game can have more physics/momentum based swinging. Imagine utilizing your web swings properly to gain immense height and speed.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I’m a little confused by your examples because Red Dead Redemption 2’s horse mechanics are beyond anything else in the industry.

That's literally what he's saying, why are you confused?

 

[rodrigolfp]

its literally just SM2's webswinging with the charge jump and sprint button completely removed as well as the ability to swing on two webs.

No. Play it again.

 

[Spukc]

the swing feels amazing..
real physics probably makes your audience projectile vomit
pretty sure they play tested different physic models.

the final one works fine

 

[Nvzman]

No. Play it again.

.... but it is? Lol its derived from the same code, what about ultimate spider-man's swinging is different from SM2 aside from removing features. Oh they added the ability to climb webs? Thats it? Lol

 

[Hobbygaming]

I also prefered the old "physical based" system. The swinging does "look" really good in the new games, the animations are incredible and it's super smooth, but because of how automated it is, I don't really get any thrills out of it.

Good traversal system are in my opinion better when they require you to be good at it for it to look good, it's more satisfying to pull off some crazy stuff if it comes from you.
For example in the old games, you could die from fall damage, and therefore it's a lot more satisfying to swing at the last moment, because there is a risk and you're playing with the risks.
It's always the sense of danger that makes things like extreme sports thrilling, if you remove it all, it's not rewarding anymore and it loses its adrenaline.

Outside of what I just said, I also think the old system was more interesting because you could experiment with it, always try new things, which is something you can't do in the new games, it's more scripted and you're not actually playing with the physics.
I also think it looks too floaty, like when you throw your web, you can see that spidey will actually start going forward before the web actually touches anything, you can see his movements aren't related to the webs, which is quite annoying and it feels wrong.

It's still a game that looks fantastic and it was fun to play, but it really lacks something to make it really satisfying to me. I think Sunset Overdrive was a lot better on that.

Fall damage in a current Spider-man game sounds horrible

 

[Larxia]

Fall damage in a current Spider-man game sounds horrible

It was only if you fell from super high, you were still playing spider-man and able to do crazy jumps.

 

[SmokedMeat]

That's literally what he's saying, why are you confused?

Because he felt Uncharted’s climbing was too automated, and came off as preferring more control.

Then made a comparison as though Japanese developers give more control. Meanwhile Elden Ring’s horseback riding, which was used as an example also, is as automated as it gets.

 

[Kenneth Haight]

I’m not reading that. The swinging feels amazing to me and insomniac are god tier developers in my eyes.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Because he felt Uncharted’s climbing was too automated, and came off as preferring more control.

Then made a comparison as though Japanese developers give more control. Meanwhile Elden Ring’s horseback riding, which was used as an example also, is as automated as it gets.

C'mon don't pretend you don't know what he means with more control, he's clearly not talking about fine control because of some intricate horse simulation, he's saying the elden ring horse turns on a mfking dime and is instantly responsive to all your inputs; it's not that deep bruv.

 

[Deerock71]

Mandatory:

 

[rodrigolfp]

.... but it is? Lol its derived from the same code, what about ultimate spider-man's swinging is different from SM2 aside from removing features. Oh they added the ability to climb webs? Thats it? Lol

Just see the video I posted.

 

[64bitmodels]

I’m not reading that. The swinging feels amazing to me and insomniac are god tier developers in my eyes.

You can watch the video then

 

[Kenneth Haight]

You can watch the video then

https://imgur.io/eTFdNU0?r