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The PlayStation 5 and the Xbox Series X Will Both Be Partially Outclassed by the Time That They're Released And Fully Outclassed One Year Later
- Thread starter BluRayHiDef
- Start date
BluRayHiDef
Banned
The issue is that console gamers' demand for better graphics exceeds their demand for high and stable framerates. Hence, developers push graphics to a degree at which consoles can render them at 30 frames per second or so at most rather than compromise graphics to a degree at which consoles can render them at 60 frames per second.
vaibhavpisal
Member
I came to this thread to write some stupid shit.
But it's already become unimaginable hell. Carry on guys.
But it's already become unimaginable hell. Carry on guys.
GymWolf
Member
pawel86ck
Banned
Yes, assuming you own a new high end PC already you can buy just GPU in order to play next gen consoles with similar settings. Most people however still game on old i5/i7 4cores/8threads CPUs, that are even weaker than next gen consoles CPUs, and remember if you plan to play PS5 / XSX ports on PC you have to own even faster CPU in order to run 30fps games at 60fps (and the same with GPU, you think it will be cheap to double 12/10TF RDNA2 performance on PC in the near future?). Personally I would have to buy everything, because I have sold my last gaming PC when it was still in good price and I didnt lose much.
Components prices in my shop:
6399 zł 2080ti asus strix (asus is my favorite brand, and my last GPU was also from asus "strix 1080ti")
2400 - i9
699 - corsair hx850
469 - noctua nh-d15 cooler
590 MSI MPG Z390 motherboard
1000 G.Skill 32GB RAM 3600 MHz
899 SDD 970 evo for Windows 10 and games (still much worse compared to gext gen consoles, but lets assume it will somehow run next gen ports thanks to 32GB system RAM)
299 additional HDD seagate barracuda 2TB for music, downloaded files, because you dont want to clutter SDD with unimportant files.
499 silentium PC armis case
589 Soundblaster x AE5 (good compatibility with old games and superb sound quality for headphones and analog 5.1 + DTS 5.1 encoder)
250 gaming mouse
100 kayboard
85 asus DRW-24D5MT
649 windows 10 home (not cheaper OEM verison, because you may have troubles reactivating your key if you upgrade PC components in the future)
14 927 zł thats 3317 euro (4.5zł - 1 euro) for PC without gaming monitor or TV, and without 2.1/5.1/7.1/ sound setup because I already have that. You can build a little bit cheaper PC (it will be still over 2500 euro), because not everyone care about sound, not everyone wants additional HDD, DVD drive, good cooloer, good quality components and of course you can also buy stolen windows 10 key, but that's what I would buy if I will be forced to buy PC right now. It's much better idea to wait a little, at least till 3080ti will launch (and better CPUs as well), because then such high end PC should run games till the end of PS5 / XSX generation wihout any problems. Also people should keep in mind... this 3000+ euro PC is still not build from the best components. It's possible to build PC with multiple CPUs, GPUs and people can also buy titan series instead of cheaper Ti series.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I'm one of those console gamers and PROUD to feel this exact way!
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ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
Anybody across Avenue 5 hbo show where the space cruise ship goes of course? Hilarious and based on actual events it seems....
ZywyPL
Banned
It depends, this gen has seem more 60FPS games than ever before, if the trend continues and more and more titles will be hitting 60FPS, people might notice 30FPS titles more often from the crowd, along with their bad/terrible controls and sluggish gameplay, and might not want to touch 30FPS games again, forcing those devs to step up their games eventually.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
nothing new compared to what? We have decades of videogaming. Most of these games might not necessarily have any particularly new feature, but compared to the ps3-360 generation they are in a whole nother ballpark. Although the original crysis is a bit dated.
The problem is 50GBs at an hdd speed of 100MB/s is going to take 500 seconds. Even with ssds that's 2-5x speed up, so at least 100 seconds or nearly 2 minutes of loading time.
The game also has to have a special mode designed to run entirely from ram, as installing even on ramdisk is still about as slow as ssds. That is games installed to run in ram are faced with bottlenecks keeping them from running much faster than sata ssds or hdds. There'd need to be special modes designed to go around the bottlenecks.
I prefer patience over splurging. The 3070 is likely to have around 2080ti performance, if the past cards are anything to go by. The 4070 is likely to have around 3080ti performance if the trend continues. Wait 2 years and you have the same performance for under 500$ in some cases under 400$.
The reason pcs are able to run at 100+fps is because they're only running current gen games. Once next gen games come around they'll likely have to wait a few years before upgrades allow similar performance boost.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
That will never happen because there's NOTHING wrong with solid 30 fps games. It's literally all just preference. Neither is better than the other. It's purely preference and only preference.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
In terms of CPU performance isn't the 3700x about par or faster than the i9-9900x?
I think if prices come down pretty quickly then matching the consoles might be doable. But as far as price vs performance, I'm not so sure we will see prices for CPUs and GPUs fall that fast within a year. Perhaps Intel and Nvidia have some faster and cheaper tech coming out. Still, if the consoles are $400, that doesn't leave much room for building a more powerful PC.
I think if prices come down pretty quickly then matching the consoles might be doable. But as far as price vs performance, I'm not so sure we will see prices for CPUs and GPUs fall that fast within a year. Perhaps Intel and Nvidia have some faster and cheaper tech coming out. Still, if the consoles are $400, that doesn't leave much room for building a more powerful PC.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Are you serious? I *am* a graphics programmer! I've been a software engineer for 20yrs! I have programmed everything you can imagine concerning graphics at some point or another. I've been working on real-time graphics programming for 3yrs.
I don't know what the hell you get that I'm an artist. I've never been an artist. Get your facts straight.
Also, I probably know more people in the gaming and film industry than any of you on these forums and most on the "other" forums too. Not many people have worked in the industry for 20yrs since I'm a 50yr old man. So be careful with your claims of knowing what's going on in the gaming industry. I'm very close to a lot of individuals and have given real and accurate information concerning the PS5 and MS/Sony's plans for the PC. You can probably pick a gaming company out of thin air and 9/10, I'll know someone that works there.
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ZywyPL
Banned
Not true at all, input-lag is a real thing.
VFXVeteran
Banned
He did discredit me. He would completely take his claim about me back if he viewed my LinkIn profile. That's what GAF mods did and it's clear as day. Whoever this guy is doesn't know me and he definitely never worked with me to make his claim about me. If I was an artist, I would say I am an artist. Artists don't make software simulations of missiles at Lockheed Martin.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
I've heard of some games running physics and input at 120fps while the graphics run at 60fps. Similar could probably be done for 30fps, if it isn't done already in some games.
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BluRayHiDef
Banned
Thanks, matey.
JimboJones
Member
Not saying that it's not a cool optimization but for making lower framerates better but..it's still a compromise at the end of the day. Those sorts of techniques try to mitigate the effects of running at low fps as much as possible but there is unfortunately no "60 fps feel" at 30fps.
TheSpecialOne
Banned
You could have fooled me. You certainly don't talk like a programmer or argue like one either. I don't really like to dig up post histories because frankly, I don't have the time. You know why you were chased from the other forum so there's no need discussing that....
As someone who has a bit of an ego, I must say, you're a ginormous egomaniac. There are a few of us on here who have software engineers, software architects, technical engineers, embedded system engineers, etc but, for the most part keep it on the dl because it doesn't mean anything. There's also the fact that we don't want an inadvertent slip up to bite us in the ass professionally. You on the other hand flaunt it off as if it's some sort of major accomplishment while frequently disseminating false and incorrect information. It's quite fascinating to watch.
With regards to your claims of being in the know, you've been wrong so many times that at some point, you've got to figure that your "contacts" are screwing with you. Imagine being 50+ year old and stanning on forums about consoles. Pretty sad man, pretty sad.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yes, it's real but not everybody is affected in the same way. Input lag is worse on HDTVs when compared to CRT TVs, yet here we are. We've adjusted mostly.
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VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I've had about enough of people jumping on this dudes junk in nearly every thread. It reminds me of how people treated D dark10x . Put up or shut up guys. If you are going to try to slander a fellow member and say he did something wrong, then show the evidence. Because I could magically do the same friggin thing to you or anyone else I don't agree with if I didn't have to provide evidence. It's the mental midget, Beta, SJW kind of thing to do just because you don't agree. Just because you or others who may be "experts" want to keep to your secret knitting circles that us plebs are unworthy to be a part of doesn't mean you make the rules for every "expert" in your respective fields like some kind of friggen pizza nepolatana.
Sorry for the attitude but man when people endlessly dog pile just because they don't like what they are hearing, and can't or don't actually refute with facts it really gets to me. You don't agree with him? That's perfectly fine. Explain why you don't agree, with facts and sources. If you are half as intelligent as you make yourselves out to be, with the way you are calling him out, it should be easy. Don't like his attitude? Fine. Lead by example. Not everyone is going to act exactly like you want them to and if you can't handle that, then just report or ignore them. No need to constantly dog pile.
I'm not defending or calling out his attitude here btw. But IF you think he actually has one, I can't count the amount of times I've seen people with high and mighty snobby attitudes have their reputations crumble because of said attitudes when they are proven wrong by a cool headed person with facts. Actual facts, not "I really want this to be true because it benefits my narrative facts."
And btw this sneaky attitude of chasing guys around and digging up evidence from other "forums" is really pathetic, unless what they did was illegal. It says more about you than it does about him.
You know what would be great? If we could all actually act and discuss like adults in a mature manner, leading by example, and learn something from one another. Even if we don't agree with eachother. I've said it before and I'll say it again....
Once you realize that everyone has biases to some degree and you can never be sure how much they are actually trying to be objective or rational, you can then start to use your intelligence and rationality to see past the bias and look at the facts if there are any and compare them, challenge them or learn from them. Simply hand waving away anyone's opinion just because you think they are "bias" is a good way to try to live in your own comfortable narrative and leave your intelligence unchallenged. Thereby strengthening your own bias... Like trying to make a snowball in a freezer one snowflake at a time... Gotta keep it safe!
Shmunter
Member
I appreciate your position. I was exactly the same when I was unfamiliar with the situation. I too even expressed displeasure of bringing in external history about the guy. Unfortunately overtime and over many posts it became completely apparent the guy is either a career troll or a quintessential dilettante. Rest assured would not be taking the position without cause.
VFXVeteran
Banned
If you are talking about ERA, I got banned because I shot down all the PS hypetrain on supposed technical superiority exclusives and they cried like babies to the PS mod warrior crew and they got tired of me challenging the idiots.
Dude, you come on here and try to shit on my career without knowing jack-shit about my creditials and then call me egomaniac? That's too funny! Too bad you have to keep quiet. I don't. I'm not in your sector. If you attack my professional career, I'm going to bite back. Period. Whether I work at a gaming company, film company, or whatever company. I worked very hard to get to where I am.
I wasn't wrong about the 1080-1080Ti performance on the PS5 and not wrong on the PS exclusives coming to PC. Both came from my "contacts" and both were 100% correct. I still know shit that people haven't even heard about yet. Shut the fuck up and go back to ERA or wherever you came from.
And next time you try to put someone's career in the shitter with your words, you better be ready to talk some specifics to test what a person knows and doesn't know. In the meantime, you should stick to whatever task you are doing at work and continue to strive for better 3D features because you are far far away from your goals of CG quality.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Dude, you constantly talk about comments I made several years ago as if a person doesn't get smarter or gain more experience. If you have only quotes that I spoke about on Beyond3D (nearly a decade before) or ERA, then you also need to shut the fuck up. You are always making driveby posts but NEVER challenge my 3D knowledge or indulge in any conversation as if you are a graphics programmer. And as it turns out, you don't know shit about graphics programming. I'm tired of people talking shit that's completely untrue like "this game looks better so therefore it's technically better" or "developers program for the consoles first". This is such bullshit and everytime I say it is untrue and give not only an objective proof why it's not, but also tell you what my contacts tell me who work all over the gaming industry (who have PROVEN to be 100% correct from what I've told people on these boards), you are being a troll. Period. The only person on these boards that I know has 3D knowledge and is a programmer is P psorcerer . And he knows that I know my shit even if we don't agree about things.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Not to jump in on a dogpile, but comments like this do strike me as being something of a red flag.
The industry isn't that small, and frankly 20 years isn't close to enough time to have worked at enough studios to have made that many contacts unless you are changing employer every month!
Fair enough, it could just be hyperbole as part of a heated discussion, but in all honesty -and this is coming from someone who started in the industry in the 1980's- it doesn't really strengthen your position.
Bottom line is that over the decades the main thing that I learned was that there never has, and never will be, a guarantee that someone in the business knows what he or she is talking about! I've seen plenty of idiots fail upwards, and smart, talented, passionate people get crushed by corporate shenanigans.
Shmunter
Member
You’re confusing me with someone else. The only knowledge I have off you is from your posts here over the last few months. My initial support of yours was positive till recently. It doesn’t take much to see through it all, graphics programmer or not.
Normally I wouldn’t bat an eyelid, the only reason I take issue is you use your title and speak from a position of authority which is nothing but a sham. Don’t take it as a slight against you personally as a whole, there is obviously a lot more to you outside of this, but that’s what we’re here for.
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VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Dude it's really easy to just say that "all experts can be wrong" as a dismissal to information you don't like coming from an "expert." This is what discussion is for. So that we can all dissect that information and learn something from one another and so that we can determine what is and isn't factual. It helps immensely if we try to separate ourselves from our biases. How awesome would it be if we had threads where experts actually did discuss their medium amongst us? Where we could learn from eachother instead of try to win some sort of war for our chosen "side."
The problem is people hearing things they don't like and just handwaving and dogpiling on it with snarky remarks and NO evidence.
My issue is with the dogpiling and snarky remarks with no evidence man. You think he's that way? Fine. Prove it. I have yet to see anyone who says VFXvet is x or y actually bringing evidence to prove it. I've seen all the same posts you have. While I don't agree with some of the attitude and some of the "facts" he brings... if I don't address it with facts and logic, either because I don't know them or don't have the time to look into it, I don't lower myself to a nipping dog trying to bite at his heals. You know why? Because me simply not agreeing based on my feelings doesn't automatically make me right. And this does nothing in the long run but annoy everyone and chase people away. It certainly doesn't do anything to change his attitude if you think he has one.
Personally I'd like to keep as many "experts" around here as possible, whether I agree with them or not. And I'd rather advocate for changing their "bad" attitudes by leading by example rather than chasing them away.
Justin9mm
Member
Consoles will always be behind PC and PC will always be left behind as you put it because consoles are where the money is and in fact if it wasn't for consoles supporting gaming, you wouldn't even be getting the AAA games we have now because PC Gaming community alone cannot fund the development cost of these games.
And truthfully, there are so many PC Gamers out there that pirate games and don't give anything back to developers so it's another case of PC master race whinging they want something for nothing. Hats off to the people on PC that pay for their games but unfortunately it's not the world we live in!
So who fucking cares OP!
And truthfully, there are so many PC Gamers out there that pirate games and don't give anything back to developers so it's another case of PC master race whinging they want something for nothing. Hats off to the people on PC that pay for their games but unfortunately it's not the world we live in!
So who fucking cares OP!
TheSpecialOne
Banned
Let me start off by saying, it'd be best if you stayed away from false equivalency when comparing VFX to dark10x. Dark10x is a humble dude who has an interest in technology and doesn't pretend to be the beginning and ending in the technical discussions he participates in. We all know why Dark10x was "dog-piled" and it's because he had the unfortunate privilege of trying to walk through the valley of console zealots. Look, you're free to defend VFXVeteran if you like after all, that's your prerogative. As to his attitude, I needn't discuss it further as others will do so on my behalf. With regards to his approach, I've had the privilege of working with extremely brilliant people in my line of work and the one thing that stuck out is a certain level of professional humility. It's because there are checks and balances on your work. Everyone is very educated on the subject matter at hand and people are cautious with the statements they make. The reckless, egotistical, and frankly narcissistic approach displayed by VFX is not an approach that I've observed to be associated with some of the brilliant individuals I've worked with in my experience. Combine this with the frequent inaccuracies from VFX, it just looks off. A certain juxtaposition perhaps. There's a reason he gets his flack wherever he goes and it's not undeserved.
B_Boss
Member
So....an emotional basis or concern for technology? Trust me, if this topic had never been thought of, the truth would (and could) stand on its own feet. One can worry all they want, the facts always speaks for itself.
Good god why can’t many gamers understand this. Excellent, excellent point. I literally cannot stand 60fps at times. The shit just looks weird to me when the game is moving in such a way and at such a speed....I’m honestly still not used to BF running at that framerate for consoles. I actually (wait for it....) prefer 30fps for the more realistic shooter games I play often, and I like 60fps for more fantasy based games. I don’t think I can really articulate why.
If I had the beefiest gaming rig I’d still set my preferred shooters to run 30fps with more LoD and this has nothing to do with console vs PC. I just don’t like that “slick moving” visual quality in shooters that have more of a realistic theme. There’s just something....I don’t know, robust?, about the lower framerate in the more realistic games
. I really can’t explain, just visual preference.
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longdi
Banned
I didnt believe this shit back then. Seems unbelieveable Sony would drop the ball with such a gap. Amidst all the fake insiders hints.
Boy was i wrong.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Right. Perhaps that's what you think when you see the title. I didn't make the title. The mods did. I'm not seeing your accusation of me being a "sham" as you put it. There is nothing that I say that's false "inside" information. And it doesn't matter. You guys ran away some good people here and in ERA too. I know Alex and John and some other devs that were completely put off from the Sony warriors and left. And it's ALWAYS the Sony warriors.. always. You fight tooth and nail whenever there is anything that's not presented in a good light about the Sony consoles. You guys act like you are on the board of investors the way you fight and make up fake shit. The sad part is I can bet a dollar to a dime 99% of you don't own a single share of stock in the company.
Shmunter
Member
You are mistaken thinking my issue is based on emotion. The evidence are the posts and the claims presented within them, they alone expose the situation, nothing more, nothing less.
I’m not invested enough to troll over post history, but here are some of the top of my head by said expert; claims of pc being the target platform for all games by virtue of the dev tools being pc based; claims we’ve already seen next gen by virtue of seeing games on pc already, Horizon 1 coming to pc will be a better looking game than a next gen Hz2, claims of SSD irrelevance to pc because they have more ram.
Amateur hour to say the least, PC zealot fanboying to be certain. There are countless posters on here without bias nor claims of being industry experts that have a better grasp on such matters.
There is nothing more I can contribute to this matter, and don’t wish to revisit it.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
'
Can you state those inaccuracies? If you are going to call me out and you work in the industry, state the facts. Indulge in tech discussion. I made a thread to talk about tech to steer you developers in that direction so talk! Don't come in here claiming I don't know shit and 1) never saw my profile to even make such a claim and 2) don't go into specifics of what I say that's completely off-base. I'd love to hear it.
I am a very humble person but I also don't let BS slide like most people. You have never worked with me before so you don't know how humble I am. Yes, I am very charged because I'm passionate about my job and love the content in the industry. You tell me where you work, so I can spout off on public boards that you know nothing about graphics programming and you are an artist and see how you respond. Don't come in here telling me I'm egotistical and should just take you bashing (completely inaccurately I might add) my work experience and not expect me to defend myself.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Every claim you make has 0 substance. He's looking at you and seeing my posts and seeing everyone say, "BS! There's physics all over GoT!!!" And then I'm sitting there going into specifics as to how the game is using cutbacks and crude approximations to fool the majority of people thinking there is some magic to this programming when there isn't. Why? Because I've programmed some of these same tricks they are using! I'm not reading some paper that I don't understand pointing a link to some GameDev confererence like most do here. You say, "it's all in what he says.." but then have nothing to say about what specifically it is. And people are supposed to just believe you because what? Your credentials? Or just because you think I'm full of shit because it doesn't fit your narrative? Do you think I'm lying about my description of the "tricks" used? If so, tell your experience then. Better yet, be one of the graphics programmers that worked on the game to tell us how you implemented it.
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TheSpecialOne
Banned
I'm really not interested in continuing this discussion further. The text in bold gave me a good chuckle. Thanks for that and have a good evening.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Then get out of the thread and go back to where you came from.
Shmunter
Member
Being blinded by raw power in an industry that is driven by slight of hand is your other failing. Something a vfx pro should know full well.
You ignore modern advances such as reconstruction techniques and proclaim a last gen game in 4K to be superior visually to a potential reconstructed next gen game. When the actual advancement is in saving on low sum overheads and redirecting them for more impact.
There’s just no depth to your reasoning, no big picture, no insight. And it’s contrary to your proclaimed industry experience.
It gives me no pleasure to be lambasting you or anyone. I frankly would rather close this out, Ive made my case there’s nothing more left apart from repetition.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
PC games won't be made with a super fast SSD ala PS5 in mind so nope.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I think the XSX will probably be on par with the RTX 3060, so that would put PS5 at 3050/3050ti level. For RDNA 2, PS5 should be an OC RX 6700, while XSX is like OC RX 6700 XT, or maybe 68xx stock. Those are some solid $300-400 GPUs compared to what PS4/XBO got. In my case, it's more beneficial to go with a GPU upgrade for my rig than a $500 console that will still require online fees and such.
If you're heavily invested in the PS or XB ecosystem and looking for ease of use, I could totally understand going that way. I just can hardly stomach 30fps these days. Especially with Cyberpunk, that would be a downer to play the last-gen version at maybe 30fps, while on PC people are rocking RT and 60fps+. TW3 was my favorite game this gen, and I think Cyberpunk could even surpass it. I want my first time to be the best possible.
If you're heavily invested in the PS or XB ecosystem and looking for ease of use, I could totally understand going that way. I just can hardly stomach 30fps these days. Especially with Cyberpunk, that would be a downer to play the last-gen version at maybe 30fps, while on PC people are rocking RT and 60fps+. TW3 was my favorite game this gen, and I think Cyberpunk could even surpass it. I want my first time to be the best possible.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I don't ignore them. I don't like them. They are a bandaid for hardware that doesn't have enough power or throughput. That doesn't make me not know what it is. Which is your claim. If you don't agree. Then fine - don't agree. But don't act like I don't know how the reconstruction technique works.
I never ever talk of superior visually unless we are talking about power features that bring (in the long run) stellar rendering quality. I leave you guy's subjective opinion alone. But you damn sure should leave mine alone too.
That's not an advancement. It's a workaround. You save on low sums of overhead because you have to - not because you want to. If the consoles had enough power to render true 4k, then they would. I know about sacrifices and reducing pixels is a BIG factor in maintaining FPS since these hardware is bandwidth limited. I get that. P psorcerer gets it. Why don't you?
No it's not. My goal is to play CG quality games. My goal is to see offline rendering a thing of the past. Call up EpicGames and ask their CTO what their goal is. I'll give you a hint. Kim used to work at ILM - you know.. the guys that worked on Star Wars, Matrix, Pirates, etc..? Those guys.
You've made no case and you'll be back I'm sure.. Defending your Sony army.
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VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
This is the stuff I'm talking about. Prove it. Put up or shut up. Because I could say the exact same thing about you and without having to provide evidence people could believe me blindly.
First off, quote the posts. I can paraphrase off of my bias memory all day and it wouldn't be changing people's minds. Accuracy in these cases is paramount.
But to address whats there as if it where what he really wrote...
1. He CLAIMED that the target platform was PC. It's something that could be easily refuted by any dev in the industry and it hasn't to my knowledge but I would love to know if any have. It's also a really ballsy claim to make considering that fact.
2. PC tech is always ahead of console tech. Has there ever been an instance where a console game at the beginning of the gen has ever implemented graphical techniques that the PC hasn't to a higher degree? The only thing you can argue here is that some console exclusives have better subjective artstyle even while using cut backs leading to a subjectively better overall looking game... But not objective new graphical techniques that couldn't or hadn't already been done on PC as far as I'm aware... Call that pedantic if you want. But that's how VFX see's games in his world view as far as I can tell.
3. and 4. I agree these are flimsy and I personally wouldn't make these arguments because I don't have any experience or expertise in this area. But still. It's coming from an educated guess. A far better one than I could make.
Ultimately, all of this doesn't mean he should be shamed and chased away. People make all kind of claims here all the time. You may not like what he says and you may just not agree. That's fine. But it's really juvenile to peck and harp on someone simply because you don't agree. And especially when you can't bring any facts to the contrary. The best thing you can do is state you don't agree in a mature fashion and disengage if a mature conversation can't be had. Keep a mental note of the claims he made so you can quote and refute them later when/if evidence appears to the contrary if you want. People do this all the time with "experts." We decide what we want to believe based on what certain people say and how much we trust them based on their history. Do I wish that more evidence could be given with claims? Yes. I absolutely do. You won't hear me argue against that if you want to ask for them or ask to expound on something. But it helps no one when people can't even refute what they feel to be false claims with real facts and instead they just dogpile. That's my issue.
What I really think is happening is a mix of people not liking what they hear, along with people just not understanding each other due to not understanding peoples viewpoints. VFX obviously doesn't see the world the same way some of you do.
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Shmunter
Member
Please don't drag me into your console warring mindset. The only fight for me is common sense.
You present rendering techniques as nothing but a crutch instead of what it is - techniques to achieve the VFX end goal.
Techniques, savings, cheating, whatever you want to call it applies to lower end and higher end. High end today will be low end tomorrow. You can render in 8k today, but you'd have to make sacrifices elsewhere. You'd scoff at a checkerboard 8k image with 4k scene complexity because it wasn't brute forced. You obviously understand that an image is a sum of it's parts, not just a pixel count?
Game engines are all workarounds, tricks and cheats to save on processing and increase real-time performance - none of them are doing it raw, that would be idiotic. And the advancement is in them getting better at it while providing more convincing results. But you don't appreciate the reality of it all and value only one part of the equation. That is your ultimate failing, the other is your obvious warring against consoles which is bizzare for someone that should know better.
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Shmunter
Member
How about No. If you don't know someones perspective why white night them? Pretty sure you were against chasing guys around and digging up evidence - but I'm not going to quote that part either.
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VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I'm against chasing guys around and dogpiling while providing NO evidence. I'm also against digging up things outside of this site. Let a posters behavior as a member on this site stand alone and be judged here. So yes, if you aren't going to let it go, then quote the evidence.
And just so we are clear. I'd be defending you and anyone else that I thought was being dogpiled on like this if I happened to see that behavior. Even though we don't agree on certain things. I don't care if you think that's white knighting. It's not like I did it the very first time I saw it happen. I've been seeing it for months now. If you are a member here you are part of the family and I'll fight for you as long as you aren't breaking the rules and as long as you aren't being completely unreasonable or a troll. And for what it's worth, I don't think VFX's attitude is perfect. I don't think a lot of peoples are. But you won't see me calling it out or adressing it on TOP of them being dogpiled on. I'll just lead by example where and when I can.
BluRayHiDef
Banned
LMAO. There's a lot of tension and butthurt in this thread.
Shmunter
Member
Bro I totally agree with you. I'm against dogpiling, bullying or harassing. And my position is to defend those being treated unjustly just as yours is, indeed I stood up for VFX at one point. And I reject any notion i'm joining a mob to inflict baseless harm.
What I'm doing is calling out a tech dilettante, possibly a troll, certainly a PC warrior - one that should be responsible in these matters, Others doing similarly are likely doing it on their own accord likely seeing the problem. Nothing more to it. If you don't see it, you haven't seen enough, I can't help with that.
Sagii86
Member
You pretty much welcomed it when you started this thread. Thought it was pretty obvious.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
All I pointed out was that making sweeping grandiose statements isn't good for credibility, and that even if the assertion were true its still not proof that every piece of information proffered is factually accurate.
I don't think I've argued with the guy anyway, the only interaction I can recall was me pointing out that in games the purpose of graphics is to support the gameplay and fiction, its about creating an immersive illusion for the player to buy into and as such the tech employed to create that illusion is of less interest than the overall verismilitude and art.
I am an industry veteran whether anyone round here chooses to believe me or not (frankly, I couldn't give a toss anymore), so I'm familiar with the mentality and outlook of people in the business. Its very distinct from that of someone who is just a fan or tech enthusiast and so if I detect that. I'm far more likely to give the benefit of the doubt all else being equal.