• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

The next evolution in video games should be A.I, not graphics

Rhazer Fusion

Member
May 2, 2006
11,530
2,903
1,660
In my own world.
m.youtube.com
Couldn’t advanced A.I. potentially lead to more frustrating games though? I got a feeling it would be abused by the developers. One spotlight in a stealth game and you might as well the checkpoint. It honestly sounds cool on paper, but I don’t know how well it will be implemented.
 
Last edited:

Iamborghini

Member
Dec 19, 2019
149
189
265
France
I'm all in for a better AI but your scenario can't be done without animations corresponding the situation, like the guard who surrenders, how do you wan't to do it? If it's an animation done by an artist, it will require lots of work, imagine doing this for every possible scenarios ??? Nearly impossible, and I'm not even talking about the voice recording, imagine doing that for every situation it's a crazy amount of work if you think about it.


The only possibility is, if you can do all this procedurally ... you will need at least 5 or 10 years before you see a strong AI... (like the Artificial general intelligence (AGI))
 
Feb 26, 2017
134
87
315
I made a post about this a while back too and I agree. The enemy AI sucks in most games. They don't know how to do anything besides shoot, take cover and maybe throw a grenade at you depending on the game. They forget about you in less than 30 seconds if they lose sight of you and if you kill one of their guys they'll act alarmed at first but then they go back to their usual routine and ignore the dead body of their comrade that's still lying there. Surely developers can do better than that by now? It'd be one thing if that was only an issue in low budget games but even AAA games are like that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jokerevo

kyliethicc

Gold Member
Mar 14, 2020
7,303
33,914
755
Pure visual effects don't change gameplay like AI, physics, and interactivity do.

Cutting edge AI and animation, like in The Last of Us Part 2, are game changers.

So are the physics simulations and interactive environments, like in Control.

Games already can achieve sufficient graphical fidelity to create atmosphere, tell stories, and have realistic (even subtle) expressive characters. But of course, more accurate audio, shadows, and reflections do add a lot to the experience and can even be useful during gameplay.
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Magnific0giganticus

mxbison

Member
Dec 9, 2020
803
1,067
325
It should be physics.

Red Faction from freaking 20 years ago had destructable environments and I still can't break a fence in these massive super immersive 300 million $ open world games....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Soodanim and TonyK

Jokerevo

Banned
May 30, 2020
396
570
310
Would it be fun to play though? This sound so stressful and difficult.
I love hard games but, wouldn't human like A.I. just make it impossible to overcome basically any challenges from almost any game?

You're citing MGS, let's use it as an example. If I'm seen one time in an enemy base, that's it. I'm done. The alert status should not be off until they see my dead body. What chance do I have, even If I'm playing Big Boss, against 20 well trained soldiers who use human like combat tactics?

It would be like playing a game of chess, but you can only use the Queen while your opponent has every piece to defend himself.
It would be mitigated by difficulty level. So the dev retains control on the experience. Hardest difficulty would see the full A.I package deployed.
Killzone 2 Elite mode had the most advanced A.I. enemies/Helghast I had ever encountered in a game. KZ3 and the rest were severely dumbed down. Don't believe me? Go play KZ2 on Elite, it was a thrill... the literally flank you from different directions as a team, they hide or evade when you're firing, they run away from grenades... even though it wasn't perfect.
Hmm never played on elite mode. Will try that out.
TLOU2 has some brilliant combat AI that's probably the closest you can get right now to some of the stuff you described.
Yes and that greatly contributed to the intensity of the game because I knew I couldnt rely on my usual tactics.

As a matter of fact, most people want "robots guarding these bases". Most games are based on a limited set of rules that the player will learn to use in a predictable way. It's also a way for the game designer to make sure he's in control of the interactive experience and make sure that it's fun to play (or at least try). Complex games just have more rules than simple ones, but they're not based on being unpredictable.
Correct and that is how it has been for too long. Tie the A.I package to difficulty levels. Have the entire routines turned off on "story mode" difficulty. That way every gamer is included.


AI is cool but I want physics and interactivity.

Take a game like Mudrunners; the mud, suspension and tire physics makes even the best AAA racers look like they’re several generations old.

And Breath of the Wild still make every other third person game seem rushed when it comes to world interactivity.

It’s all facade but no substance nowdays, system resources are wasted on native 4K and ray-tracing while the games still behave like they’re made in 1995.

Well the physics route would be very interesting if everything was destructable...but if we keep A.I at its current level I'm effectively having the same gaming experience as the last 20 years...everything just looks prettier.

What?? In Cyberpunk they seem almost instantly know now if i take out someone(even nonlethal takedown behind walls) and go into alert status immediately .

Yes and if you don't move nothing happens. I'm playing on hard..they go into alert and then if you just stay in stealth they just reset after ten seconds or so.

Couldn’t advanced A.I. potentially lead to more frustrating games though? I got a feeling it would be abused by the developers. One spotlight in a stealth game and you might as well the checkpoint. It honestly sounds cool on paper, but I don’t know how well it will be implemented.

I think if dev's tie it into difficulty then we have a complete revamp of how difficulty modes work...so now we'd have a story mode difficulty where all A.I packages are off or at minimum. Instead of difficulty modes that just increase damage etc. I mean in Tlou2 they have this scaling difficulty where you can tweak A.I separately so clearly it can be done, it's just most devs have chosen not to.

I'm not interested in turning games into slogs or grinds hence my idea about the personality or IQ traits....smaller bases would be staffed by "dumber" people. In fact it could lead to hilarious situations where the guards might all flee in terror.

Consider this applied to AC Valhalla, assaulting a larger base is just the same as easy as assaulting a small one. The only difference is there's probably a higher level dude there and there's simply more dudes...and the time it takes....but imagine if you killed the lieutenant first...now the guards wouldn't respond as efficiently..imagine if the METHOD of killing actually intimidated the guards into abandoning their posts or made them freeze and cower in fear?

I just think the applications of these A.I packages hugely increase the immersion and gameplay of all games. I'm not saying every game should have it but there are certain games where the A.I is literally immersion breaking and for the record it was Cyberpunk and Valhalla that prompted this post. I realised I was feeling the grind not because I was getting bored of killing (lol) it was because my routine was so effective that all my encounters were the same...and that level of predictability should never happen in new games made in the 21st century.
 
Last edited:

TonyK

Member
Aug 13, 2020
1,265
2,019
420
Personally I would prefer they focus in physics. IA is poor today but it works. Physics are between totally shit and inexistent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mxbison

sunnysideup

Banned
Nov 11, 2018
1,110
2,000
585
You want npc emulate human behavior at surfice level. Beyond that enemies must be underpowred dumb and predictable.

otherwise it will be very hard to make something beyond the simplest arena deathmatch.
 

meech

Member
Aug 4, 2020
177
138
225
Yes and if you don't move nothing happens. I'm playing on hard..they go into alert and then if you just stay in stealth they just reset after ten seconds or so.
??No, they stay alerted.(on Xbox) Sure you have the latest patches installed?
 

Whitecrow

Member
May 7, 2018
2,406
3,945
615
We are talking about games, and in games it's important to let the players have the control of the situation to a degree, so they can find a way to solve the situation and feel the satisfaction.

A super incredible AI would be counterproductive to gaming if it constantly adapts to the decisions of the player and being better. AI should always be kind of dumb, to a degree.

I agree that stupid AI kinda feels old but all we need is it to not feel stupid, not to be incredibly amazing.
 

regawdless

Banned
Sep 21, 2020
2,724
7,033
565
Some people are automatically connecting great AI to difficulty. Which isn't necessarily the case. It's more about dynamic reactions to the player, interactions with the environment, reactions to actions that take place, group behaviour etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Virt McPolygon

Great Hair

Banned
Dec 10, 2018
4,499
10,881
800
A.I generates real-life cast of >insert video game< and other scary A.I sh*t! (maybe it´s worth an extra thread, but this fits here aswell)



Two A.Is having a ...... chat.

Boombox Shut Up GIF
Season 7 Coffee GIF by The Office
 

CamHostage

Member
Sep 30, 2004
7,268
2,455
1,660
Would it be fun to play though? This sound so stressful and difficult.
I love hard games but, wouldn't human like A.I. just make it impossible to overcome basically any challenges from almost any game?

Right, that's the problem with a lot of "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" ideas that come out of people saying what they think they want in interactive entertainment. Problem is, these are games. Games have rules and exploits and strategies. They can incorporate elements of reality (MGS and to a degree Metal Gear itself are great examples of reality influencing gameplay to explore new territory of challenge and complexity,) but they need to be fun or compelling to play ultimately.

Could a game with "realistic AI" be fun to play? Maybe. I'd love to see a game try, if for nothing else than to just to push the boundaries. We could use the variety of a new type of experience, and maybe it'd actually turn out real well and not just frustratingly obtuse or annoyingly unresponsive. But good game design is ultimately in the 'design'.
 
Last edited:

Chiggs

Gold Member
Jan 20, 2005
15,056
7,276
1,855
I like AI to be dumb so I can be the smart guy/hero. Can you imagine Dark Souls with incredible AI? Every encounter would feel like an invasion! No thanks.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CamHostage

Magic Carpet

Member
Apr 2, 2020
1,080
988
315
It's 2021 and we still don't have a robot that can do the laundry. I don't think we have to worry about AI taking over.
 
Last edited:

THEAP99

reposts tweets from kids about console wars
Mar 16, 2020
4,362
11,756
710
Totally agree with you. It's absolutely pathetic that 99% open world games in this day and age don't have npcs reacting to your actions. Like in spiderman, horizon, assassin Creed, ghost of Tsushima, cyberpunk, far cry 6, etc you can walk up to a random npc, jump on it or try hitting it and it won't react dynamically.
Sick of set dressing worlds

Even buddy ai could be drastically improved: