• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Last of Us: Part II - State of Play announced 05/27 (1pm PT / 4pm ET / 9pm UK)

Terenty

Member
Gonna say it again:

What is "correct" representation? What's the best ratio of male to female, gay to straight, black to white, etc. That creators should be striving towards so as not to upset somebody who's keeping count for their side? Think about how hard it it'd be across a long game with a lot of characters, locations, and scenes.

I don't think its an attainable goal, or a desirable one for creators.
Lets take Kojima and Death Stranding for example. Do you think he had some kind of quota on which character should be white, black, asian etc, who is straight, gay, lesbi? I don't think so. He just created a game with actors he liked. Thats all.

Nobody said anything about there not being gay chatacters or some other label characters. That's because Kojima is not known to be a virtue signaling individual. Nobody suspects him of promoting some kind of political thinking. Even if he put a gay character in his game it woudn't be so in your face, because he is not obsessed with preaching about it.

That's the difference, Naughty Dog are in the business of preaching and representing that's why it comes off cringy and unnatural.
 

dDoc

Member
Friendly reminder, this game is co-written by Halley Gross

Of Westworld fame, one of the shows that's gone full female. In which females(both human and robotic kind) are adept/smart/capable and the men are the opposite. Never go full female.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
That's the difference, Naughty Dog are in the business of preaching and representing that's why it comes off cringy and unnatural.

I don't feel its any more "cringy and unnatural" than the original TLOU, which most people were fine with. I think there's a whole load of confirmation bias going on as people try and make the information/footage released conform with their preexisting beliefs.

I see evidence of this in how nothing ever gets walked back, even as evidence mounts showing claims to be patently false (i.e, 4chan "rumors") its still used as contributory to the overall narrative. Its BS.
 
Last edited:

Jbomb19

Member
A random lesbian soldier that has a lesbian partner that you randomly stumble upon is not in your face "we have lesbians in our game!" approach?

LOL Oh, buddy. Leave your hometown. Please visit other cities. Read books and watch movies from people who have different backgrounds than you. You desperately need to expand your horizons.
 

Danjin44

The nicest person on this forum
God , this whole conversation about whats "woke" or whats not in every TLOU thread is getting so fucking old and tiring.

We have dedicated thread for that here, you go wild.


Its funny that how some people hating one this game because so called "agenda" but themselves have clear "agenda" to shit on this game with same tiring argument about "SJW" in every fucking thread that related to TLOU.
 
Last edited:

PanzerAzel

Member
I'll copy/paste and extend a prior post of mine to save me typing again:

Regarding the game itself, even though I find the overly woke/SJW approach to many pieces of entertainment to be exhausting, insulting and totally counter-predictive. I'm willing to give ND as a developer the benefit of the doubt for the time being and make my own decision on the game. Even if I have fundamental disagreements with the likes of Druckman's acquaintances like Anita Sarkeesian, ND have yet to forgo quality in the name of agenda in a final product. If they set a precedent for doing so here then my mind may very well change going forward.

To get an idea of my personal outlook, my only issue in regards to trans people is the proposition of legally/professionally compelled speech regarding pronouns, trans athletes, transitioning children and forced equity vs equal opportunity. Outside of that, I'm all for people identifying how they like and being who they feel they are; and I think they deserve all the respect the content of their character commands, just like anyone else.

I think the gay/lesbian movement was fundamentally a libertarian movement, it was a case of "let us be who we want to be". And the trans movement may very well have started out with the same good intentions but has unfortunately -- in parts at least -- morphed into a more authoritarian movement that can often directly encroach upon fundamental freedoms.

There's no reason why trans, gay or lesbian people can't be featured in any piece of entertainment and I think it's easy to fall into the trap of, there must be a specific reason for them to be included which directly relates to them being as they are in terms of gender identity or sexuality.

My concern however, and one that has so often been proven right in recent years is that the aforementioned gender identity, sexuality (and even ethnicity) is often presented as the entirety of their being; so much so that the quality and substance of the characters and the story is reduced to that. Alongside this is a total lack of subtlety. We often see hand-me-down characters and franchises with characters reduced to soulless husks. Or characters that serve only to be the "LGBTQ guy/gal". I find it bizarre that this is often celebrated by many of those most vocal in the community; it seems to be that it would be insulting more than anything.

Perhaps ND have introduced a trans character with substance, where their persuasion or identity doesn't present the entirety of their being and it simply serves as a point of motivation or as a catch in the story. Or, perhaps like most creatives as of late, they've shoehorned them in just to be woke and they'll try to smash you round the face with it. We don't know yet..

What has me hopeful at least, is that these characters are supposedly deeply flawed and hell-bent on revenge. This is a big deal, as a lot of the SJW crowd have been obsessed about trans, gay, lesbian or ethnic-minority characters being presented in a positive fashion all the time. True representation isn't all puppy dogs and rainbows and will often be unflattering, not because they're trans for eg. but because they're human.

To be truly represented, included or accepted isn't always to be positively represented, but sometimes negatively too. It's to sometimes be the butt of a joke, without reservation...not because you're trans/gay etc.; even if that is the subject of the joke. But because like anyone else, you're probably flawed, fucked up and idiosyncratic in one way or the other. When people stop making exceptions for you, that is acceptance, when "acceptance" isn't even a conscious decision or a point of contention, it just kinda is.

I'm quietly hopeful for the time being.

If what matters solely to anyone is that there are gay, lesbian, trans or whatever people in the game then I'd argue your only contributing to the divisiveness just as those on the opposite side of the fence do when they demand total compliance. I believe however, that myself and many others just want quality to take precedence and not be relegated to the sidelines in favour of other things, to not be patronised.

No one helps anyone, on either side, by being vitriolic or calling people names. The two extremes often construct straw-mans, an extreme example they can hold up as something to argue against and people play into it time and time again. They slowly get suckered into that extreme and you only serve to give those with an opposing argument more ammo. By doing this anyone trying to pose a reasoned, nuanced argument will be lumped in with one or the other by those less reasonable; you can lean 1% in one direction or 1% in the other and as far as they're concerned, you're 100% of the way in that direction.

What it all comes down to with me, as alluded to above, is... When it comes to a person what matters is are you decent and are you well reasoned? When it comes to art and entertainment, does quality and effectiveness come first?

Whatever you do, don't be like the guy in this tweet wherever your argument may lay, you only serve to strengthen opposing arguments, make the arguments of yourself and those around you less effective; and make yourself look an idiot. Cory was the better guy here whatever your disagreements may be with him and his ilk.


This is one of the best, most thoughtful, and well-articulated posts on this subject. Thank you.
 

PanzerAzel

Member
Gonna say it again:

What is "correct" representation? What's the best ratio of male to female, gay to straight, black to white, etc. That creators should be striving towards so as not to upset somebody who's keeping count for their side? Think about how hard it it'd be across a long game with a lot of characters, locations, and scenes.

I don't think its an attainable goal, or a desirable one for creators.

Creators shouldn't be striving towards representation at all, it shouldn't even be a consideration because I agree with you....it is an unattainable goal. It's a lost cause before it is even undertaken, as it's not borne primarily of creative impetus but is driven instead by ideology and identity politics that that creation then becomes beholden to servicing. I'm not a writer, but I (and many others) can easily recognize this distinction when we see it. To answer your question: correct representation isn't to be determined in equality of outcome of the collective, but is instead to be ascertained within merit of the singular in manner of its execution.

How is that determined? For me, it exists and is justified in the nuance of narrative and proper and well-established characterization. For an example, in TLoU, it didn't strike me odd for one second that Henry or Sam were black, or that Bill (and later, Ellie) was gay. I simply saw them as for who they were, because no single superficial trait of theirs (such as their race or orientation) was presented as paramount above any other in the context of the narrative. They simply were; they were multi-faceted and well-rounded individuals whose respective traits were incidental and equal to their characterization and not defining of it. People can sense when a creator is making a concerted attempt to place focus upon one trait above another in striving to hit a "proper" representative ratio and fill quota boxes. This is why I've taken exception with only TLoU 2's trailers (not the actual game itself) in placing focus on Ellie's orientation sans any meaningful narrative framework, because it can't grant that context properly contrasted to an experience that will be dozens of hours long that will be able to. That is, IMO, a prime example of flawed and forced representation that comes off as artificially hamfisted, and when taken in context of Naughty Dog's statements and affiliations outside of their work, further substantiates a case that an agenda is indeed at play.
 
Top Bottom