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[MidGenRefresh]

Take a second to read.

You obviously have no idea how much a revert to manual changes the core game. Take a minute and play the game before you comment.

 

[DForce]

You obviously have no idea how much a revert to manual changes the core game. Take a minute and play the game before you comment.

I have it.
I played it.

Want me to remind you of how many crazy features were added after THPS 4?

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

After watching it a few more times.. I can now appreciate the upgrades but still don't appreciate the price.

 

[Stooky]

Whether or not gamers are entitled is aside the point.

It is not running wild with expectations when Sony and Naughty Dog state that TLoU Remake would have "modernized gameplay" when the most modern gameplay in the franchise is found in TLoU II. That's not running wild, it is a very reasonable deduction to make. And had the Remake released with that gameplay, you, and no other apologist, would be saying a word about it otherwise because it would have been fully expected, as it should be given the phrasing. It is only after the leaks arise to show that the gameplay looks nigh identical to the original release that apologists need to scramble, attempt to redefine the workings of the English language, attack the fans for their "ridiculous" assumptions, and apologize in defense of these companies.....who have deliberately misled consumers. For why this defense happens, I have no idea, they are doing you no favors.

This is on Sony and ND, no one else.

So your saying modernized gamplay = what ever gamers dream up. Game devs are then responsible for not meeting those expectations. If that’s not being entitled I don’t know what is

 

[PanzerAzel]

So your saying modernized gamplay = what ever gamers dream up. Game devs are then responsible for not meeting those expectations. If that’s not being entitled I don’t know what is

No, what I'm saying is that when a developer or company is speaking strictly within the context of a singular franchise, claiming "modernized gameplay" strictly alludes to modernization of gameplay within that franchise. That's not "what ever gamers dream up"; I have yet to see one person upset over these leaks desire anything more than what TLoU II affords to gameplay. Developers are responsible for meeting what their mouths proclaim. To fail to do that isn't gamer entitlement, it's called developers being deceptive in their marketing.

 

[SlimySnake]

That’s funny, considering numerous games look better than this remake (horizon, ratchet, demons souls, etc). I was more impressed with Spider Man miles morales and all that ray tracing as well

What I like the most about Miles Morales wasn't just they slapped on RT reflections on what is clearly a last gen game. They actually made almost every single story mission take place in areas that would take full advantage of RT reflections. I remember BFV boasting about RT reflections and only one hotel of one map actually had reflective surfaces. Otherwise, RT was non-existent. Same thing with control. Over half of that game is set in corridors and rooms with no reflective surfaces.

But Insomniac knew that they were making a game that would launch on the PS5 so they made a conscious effort to showcase it in almost every level. Easily the best Sony studio if not the best technical studio in the business right now.

 

[Stooky]

No, what I'm saying is that when a developer or company is speaking strictly within the context of a singular franchise, claiming "modernized gameplay" strictly alludes to modernization of gameplay within that franchise. That's not "what ever gamers dream up"; I have yet to see one person upset over these leaks desire anything more than what TLoU II affords to gameplay. Developers are responsible for meeting what their mouths proclaim. To fail to do that isn't gamer entitlement, it's called developers being deceptive in their marketing.

They proclaimed modernized gameplay. Over zealous Gamers put prone and dodge on that. There is nothing modern about dodge and prone. If that was in the game you have heard about it from ND on everything. If this is how you approach things in life, prepare for major disappointment and it will be your own fault. It’s like getting mad at Santa for not bringing you that bike on your wishlist. Santa is like I said I’m bringing gifts I didn’t promise you a bike. And you start throwing a tantrum.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

What I like the most about Miles Morales wasn't just they slapped on RT reflections on what is clearly a last gen game. They actually made almost every single story mission take place in areas that would take full advantage of RT reflections. I remember BFV boasting about RT reflections and only one hotel of one map actually had reflective surfaces. Otherwise, RT was non-existent. Same thing with control. Over half of that game is set in corridors and rooms with no reflective surfaces.

But Insomniac knew that they were making a game that would launch on the PS5 so they made a conscious effort to showcase it in almost every level. Easily the best Sony studio if not the best technical studio in the business right now.

Absolutely

It's kind of incredible, I know we harp on Cross-Gen games, but Miles was the absolute best example of what that could mean for next-gen. The RT reflections were truly something new and brought a new dimension to Spiderman games. And they did it AT LAUNCH.

Here we are two years later and NONE of these huge Sony releases are coming close to what Insomniac is going to take advantage of next-gen hardware, even from Sony's best studios (ND, SSM, etc). It's frankly sad.

I definitely think IG is probably the best studio they have at the moment. They are efficient, create high quality products that look and play extremely well. They may not pander to "Oscar bait" like ND does, but they don't waste so many years in development chasing controversial directions in their games.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

So. . I just replayed some Red Dead Redemption 2 and wandered around New Dennis, which has a similar density of city structure and design, and Rdr2 is at least as good looking on an Xb1X as this remake is ....4 years later on Ps5!

And there are people that are wondering why so many people are disappointed by LoU1 remake?

This shouldn't be the case. No game from last gen should match the fidelity of a Naughty Dog ps5 exclusive.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Absolutely

It's kind of incredible, I know we harp on Cross-Gen games, but Miles was the absolute best example of what that could mean for next-gen. The RT reflections were truly something new and brought a new dimension to Spiderman games. And they did it AT LAUNCH.

Here we are two years later and NONE of these huge Sony releases are coming close to what Insomniac is going to take advantage of next-gen hardware, even from Sony's best studios (ND, SSM, etc). It's frankly sad.

I definitely think IG is probably the best studio they have at the moment. They are efficient, create high quality products that look and play extremely well. They may not pander to "Oscar bait" like ND does, but they don't waste so many years in development chasing controversial directions in their games.

Yup. I always make sure to include Miles/Spiderman Remaster in the conversation.. Ratchet is still the crowning next gen achievement so far thougj. Beats all challengers though on console including FW and is almost a generation ahead of what we're seeing with this Remake. ND should've been able to get some RT reflections at least. There are plenty of reflective surfaces in Part 1. RT would've at least made this feel like it was taking advantage of the ps5.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Wa

This is nothing we haven't seen before. It was there in The Last of Us Part II, a PS4 game. Naughty Dog pretty much mastered the art of fake reflections.

Very good segment in DF tech review video:

Naughty Dogs screen space reflections are clear looking but not convincing. Compared to RT reflections they stick out like a sore thumb at times. I'm thinking of Uncharted 4 remaster and LoU2 ...that's why I really think they need to ditch them for RT

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Whether or not gamers are entitled is aside the point.

It is not running wild with expectations when Sony and Naughty Dog state that TLoU Remake would have "modernized gameplay" when the most modern gameplay in the franchise is found in TLoU II. That's not running wild, it is a very reasonable deduction to make. And had the Remake released with that gameplay, you, and no other apologist, would be saying a word about it otherwise because it would have been fully expected, as it should be given the phrasing. It is only after the leaks arise to show that the gameplay looks nigh identical to the original release that apologists need to scramble, attempt to redefine the workings of the English language, attack the fans for their "ridiculous" assumptions, and apologize in defense of these companies.....who have deliberately misled consumers. For why this defense happens, I have no idea, they are doing you no favors.

This is on Sony and ND, no one else.

Whenever I see a person accusing someone who's legitimately criticizing what they perceive as misleading developer claims as "well you're just entitled", I will immediately put them on Ignore. These people love to use that term to defend something they want to like and its the most tired and immature response possible.

If they think it's entitled to take a developer at his word then they are everything wrong with gamers in '22. They are the reason we see more and more audacious behavior from developers and publishers these days. It's like, No, you don't get to act like you're the rational ones here. It's YOU guys are in fact being the immature and rediculous ones in the thread if you need to go on the attack with insults over a $70 piece of software. ESPECIALLY when the person doing the complaining is usually backing up their argument with examples and all you're doing is screaming "entitlement!".

 

[PanzerAzel]

They proclaimed modernized gameplay. Over zealous Gamers put prone and dodge on that. There is nothing modern about dodge and prone. If that was in the game you have heard about it from ND on everything. If this is how you approach things in life, prepare for major disappointment and it will be your own fault. It’s like getting mad at Santa for not bringing you that bike on your wishlist. Santa is like I said I’m bringing gifts I didn’t promise you a bike. And you start throwing a tantrum.

The fact that dodge and prone are in the most recent TLoU means they are modern. You may disagree they are a suitable fit within Remake (and I think there's an argument to be made respective to prone not being a consideration when TLoU's levels were initially designed) but regardless, they are modern gameplay mechanics within the franchise. I don't think prone would detrimentally affect the gameplay but would instead add tactical options, but that's another discussion. Sony and ND have not elaborated at all on what constitutes "modernized gameplay" and how the combat was "redone from the ground up". They don't show that, they don't have the right to claim it and slap it on the box for marketing. Consumers making a perfectly reasonable deduction is not their fault. I don't know how you approach things in life if this is your manner of deduction, it's something we use everyday simply to function.

And no, ND's and Sony's statements are not nearly as vague as you are attempting to frame them. Stop trying to blame gamers when companies are lying to us. A more valid analogy would be if Santa said he's bringing an older bike with gear and pedal improvements up to the modern standards of their newest bike in a specific line, and he brings it with only a new paint job and tires. This isn't construing a specific from a vague (bike/gifts), but a specific from a specific (TLoU/TLoU II), no matter how much you try to paint it otherwise.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Yep. We have to be mindful of devs crunching and working hard. We simply cannot demand they add next gen features like ray tracing to a next gen game. Thats very entitled and toxic gamer behavior. We have to be better than this. I suggest we move back to PS1 era graphics so devs can go home at 3PM everyday instead of crunching and doing their job. I also suggest we increase the price of games to $100 to ensure devs can live like kings and queens that they are.

In all seriousness, this is exactly what I had feared when I first saw Phil selling his cross gen vision and xbox fans falling for it. I knew that it wasn't just going to hold games back, but also condition gamers to have this low expectation of what we should expect from next gen games. We are at a point now where we are not getting better physics simulations, better destruction, AI simulations, next gen hair simulations, or next gen visuals 2 years into the gen. And yet, we have gamers defending a game that isnt even offering last gen features. The corporations have won. They have conditioned gamers to accept downgrades, and have brainwashed them into defending these shady practices.

The dev who got backlash for his tweet suggesting adding prone would be too much work is now being showered with support and love on twitter by pretty much everyone. Part of it is twitter's ridiculous mob mentality creating a bubble where devs see all this support and think that the people questioning their work are just a vocal minority. Like this dev now does. But part of it is the fact that the fanbase truly loves ND the studio and Playstation the brand, instead of the actual games they produce. Nothing will change, and devs will continue to lie, mislead, under deliver, and justify any backlash as that of a vocal minority. For example, FF7 Rebirth producer just came out and confirmed that they will be reusing the PS4 character models in the new PS5 only release of the full priced $60-70 sequel. How lazy is that? Did you even hear a backlash? No one cares. Everyone is conditioned to expect the bare minimum.

This is it. Right here folks. This is what console gaming has become right now and its the reason we're seeing more and more disappointments this generation. The bar has been successfully lowered. As you said, "the corps have won". Not hard when they have an army of lemmings ready to defend and go on the old "you're just entitled" defense.

Notice Sony will not get away with charging $70 for this product on PC. There will be Ray Tracing on PC or the price will be $50-$60. PC gamers will not accept lazy bullshit and deceit the way "we" do on console. It's not because the ps5 can't do RT either because if ND really cared enough they could've gotten RT reflections working on this.

The "state of play" in gaming and within Sony is not good for ps5 owners right now. You're also right about Phil's comments 2 years ago when the whole cross gen argument was brought up for the first time. THAT was our chance to push back and we blew it. You know who was pushing back though? It was the "Dealer Gaming's" and the "IGN's" of the world, except they weren't pushing back against Phil's bs about cross gen games, instead they were pushing back against the people who were against it of course.

I wouldn't be surprised if the phrase "you're just being entitled" was used then as part of their bullshit arguments that "cross gen won't hold back games". In other words it was the MS and Sony fanboys who were speaking loudest and the mouthpiece fake sites like IGN.

Sony and MS have realized they've won the battle over expectations already. Why should they push their studios and spend any more than they have to?

 

[PanzerAzel]

Whenever I see a person accusing someone who's legitimately criticizing what they perceive as misleading developer claims as "well you're just entitled", I will immediately put them on Ignore. These people love to use that term to defend something they want to like and its the most tired and immature response possible.

If they think it's entitled to take a developer at his word then they are everything wrong with gamers in '22. They are the reason we see more and more audacious behavior from developers and publishers these days. It's like, No, you don't get to act like you're the rational ones here. It's YOU guys are in fact being the immature and rediculous ones in the thread if you need to go on the attack with insults over a $70 piece of software. ESPECIALLY when the person doing the complaining is usually backing up their argument with examples and all you're doing is screaming "entitlement!".

Nowhere else do I see this tactic resorted to, and I think it's mostly due to the stigma associated with gamers (children, manchild living in their mom's basement, etc) that makes many prone to resort to personal attacks when any legitimate criticism arises towards scummy business antics. Gaming isn't immune from them, and it's unfortunate that productive discussions are often impeded by the consequences of the perception its consumers often give off. What ND and Sony have done here (if the leaks are true) is shitty and should be called out.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Yup. I always make sure to include Miles/Spiderman Remaster in the conversation.. Ratchet is still the crowning next gen achievement so far thougj. Beats all challengers though on console including FW and is almost a generation ahead of what we're seeing with this Remake. ND should've been able to get some RT reflections at least. There are plenty of reflective surfaces in Part 1. RT would've at least made this feel like it was taking advantage of the ps5.

Ratchet is incredibly crisp looking even at 60 fps....same with Horizon FW

The fact that this will look like a muddy 1440p at 60 fps is honestly ridiculous. Like they couldn't improve the performance to notch up the resolution significantly from their lazy ass PS5 patch of TLOU2?

 

[Stooky]

To summarize this page:

• Gamers are entitled for taking a dev at his word

In NDs case the never said prone and dodge was in the game…….Carry on

 

[Stooky]

The fact that dodge and prone are in the most recent TLoU means they are modern. You may disagree they are a suitable fit within Remake (and I think there's an argument to be made respective to prone not being a consideration when TLoU's levels were initially designed) but regardless, they are modern gameplay mechanics within the franchise. I don't think prone would detrimentally affect the gameplay but would instead add tactical options, but that's another discussion. Sony and ND have not elaborated at all on what constitutes "modernized gameplay" and how the combat was "redone from the ground up". They don't show that, they don't have the right to claim it and slap it on the box for marketing. Consumers making a perfectly reasonable deduction is not their fault. I don't know how you approach things in life if this is your manner of deduction, it's something we use everyday simply to function.

And no, ND's and Sony's statements are not nearly as vague as you are attempting to frame them. Stop trying to blame gamers when companies are lying to us. A more valid analogy would be if Santa said he's bringing an older bike with gear and pedal improvements up to the modern standards of their newest bike in a specific line, and he brings it with only a new paint job and tires. This isn't construing a specific from a vague (bike/gifts), but a specific from a specific (TLoU/TLoU II), no matter how much you try to paint it otherwise.

In the gameplay trailer they talked updates to the gameplay to modernize TLOUS gameplay, motion matching is modern, AI is updated, that's no small task. Yet because they didn't do what is on your check list they are liars? And that not being entitled? Adding prone and doge is not modern its a gameplay feature. there's nothing modern about it, there's prone and dodge on Snes games. why stop at dodge and prone. Let’s break tlou’s gameplay even more and add jump mechanic too. Uncharted 4 is modern let’s give Joel a grappling hook. It funny how selective you are about what modern game play is.

 

[PanzerAzel]

In the gameplay trailer the talked updates to the gameplay, that's modern, motion matching is modern, that's no small task. Yet because they didn't do what is on your check list they are liars? Well why stop at dodge and prone. Let’s break tlou’s gameplay even more and add jump mechanic too. Uncharted 4 is modern let’s give Joel a grappling hook. It funny how selective you are about what modern game play is.

I’m only selective within the constraints of TLoU II, as that’s what was implied in terms of improvements. “Modernized”=TLoU II in the context of how they framed it, there’s no way around that connection. And I define gameplay (in its simplest form) as the moment to moment interplay and feedback between game systems, mechanics, game feel and the player.

By that definition, I find the differences between TLoU I and II‘s combat to be much larger than just prone, jump or dodge offers. It’s not just mechanics, it’s found in the nuances and subtleties in the portrayal of the engagements and the feeling of desperation and just narrowly surviving by the skin of the teeth. It was decent in the first game, they jacked it up massively in the sequel.

That’s mostly what I was hoping to see with this modernization of gameplay, little did I know it wouldn’t even be happening.

 

[EDMIX]

I’m only selective within the constraints of TLoU II, as that’s what was implied in terms of improvements.

not really. Even as a massive fan of Part 2 and even someone on here who really wanted those features in the game, no where do they ever promise it or state thats coming or even imply it or something.

Nothing in their comments suggest it was suppose to be The Last Of Us 2's gameplay 1.1 verbatim or something weird like that.

So I wish it was in the game, I think they should have actually redesigned it to be in the game in terms of the levels and its even the reason I'm no longer buying it day 1, but Stooky is still correct on this, they gave a list of a lot of changes that simply don't have dodge or prone that still fit what they said about adding those changes, simply not 100% exactly what you and I wanted.

That doesn't make them liars or anything of the sort as they can still say they made those changes to make it modern, yet it actually not be 100% like The Last Of Us 2. Prone and dodge are not like default things in all games to really make it sound like it would be expected regardless or something.

By that definition, I find the differences between TLoU I and II‘s combat to be much larger than just prone, jump or dodge offers

I 100% agree with this too mind you, but that does support Stooky's point though, much larger differences exist between them that they added to the remake, simply not prone and dodge.

That’s mostly what I was hoping to see with this modernization of gameplay, little did I know it wouldn’t even be happening.

Same. I'm actually more surprised at not seeing the crazy damage like limbs not coming off or something lol That if anything is much more questionable.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

What I like the most about Miles Morales wasn't just they slapped on RT reflections on what is clearly a last gen game. They actually made almost every single story mission take place in areas that would take full advantage of RT reflections. I remember BFV boasting about RT reflections and only one hotel of one map actually had reflective surfaces. Otherwise, RT was non-existent. Same thing with control. Over half of that game is set in corridors and rooms with no reflective surfaces.

But Insomniac knew that they were making a game that would launch on the PS5 so they made a conscious effort to showcase it in almost every level. Easily the best Sony studio if not the best technical studio in the business right now.

Insomniac has become the premier Sony first party studio. High quality. Quick development time. I don't know how are they doing it.

 

[EDMIX]

Insomniac has become the premier Sony first party studio. High quality. Quick development time. I don't know how are they doing it.

Well they've been that way for a long time actually.

Look at their wiki. They were doing Resistance and Ratchet back to back at one point. If they say they'll have Spiderman 2 ready for next year, I'm like 99.9999935965% sure it will happen lol They might be one of the only devs I've ever seen with this type of turnaround and I don't eve know if its something someone can just get other developers to do or be able to do. What ever sorcery they have going on seems to be something that I've yet to see replicated at their level.

I terms of quality, I think ND is slightly better, but open world game vs linear is different with how data and power is focused, but in terms of turn around, unmatched.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

I terms of quality, I think ND is slightly better, but open world game vs linear is different with how data and power is focused, but in terms of turn around, unmatched.

Yes, it's hard to compare. Maybe if Factions 2 is more open we will be able to do a proper comparison with Spider-Man 2.

 

[Flabagast]

Absolutely

It's kind of incredible, I know we harp on Cross-Gen games, but Miles was the absolute best example of what that could mean for next-gen. The RT reflections were truly something new and brought a new dimension to Spiderman games. And they did it AT LAUNCH.

Here we are two years later and NONE of these huge Sony releases are coming close to what Insomniac is going to take advantage of next-gen hardware, even from Sony's best studios (ND, SSM, etc). It's frankly sad.

I definitely think IG is probably the best studio they have at the moment. They are efficient, create high quality products that look and play extremely well. They may not pander to "Oscar bait" like ND does, but they don't waste so many years in development chasing controversial directions in their games.

Dont agree at all.

Insomniac Games makes well made but ultimately very boring and safe games imho. They don’t bring anything to the table I think, and they could go to Xbox for all I care.

For all its faults TLOU P2 is a thousand times more interesting than anything IG has ever put out.

 

[EDMIX]

Dont agree at all.

Insomniac Games makes well made but ultimately very boring and safe games imho. They don’t bring anything to the table I think, and they could go to Xbox for all I care.

For all its faults TLOU P2 is a thousand times more interesting than anything IG has ever put out.

I mean....

Do better at quantifying what you are talking about.

I don't think Insomniac played it safe on the new Ratchet with allowing you to go to different dimensions in real time and I don't think they played it safe with Spiderman either.

Boring? Subjective.

I even agree that something like the subject matter in The Last Of Us 2 is many times more fascinating. Me as a child would fucking love Spiderman on PS4, I loved the 90's cartoon show and was obsessed with the comics, but as a 30 something, I'm much more looking for a story that makes sense with me being an adult, so The Last Of Us fits maybe better. However, that doesn't mean Spiderman is boring or playing it safe for what they are looking to do. They pulled off the greatest Spiderman game ever made and imho the greatest super hero title ever created and its just not easy feat.

Think about it, they had the blueprint of a shit ton of games, why make this one so much better? Why not just copy what failed with those other games? So liking The Last Of Us, doesn't mean one needs to shit on Insomniac lol I wish more developers made darker games as many gamers are getting in those 30's, 40's and might want that mature content that fits what they know the world to be and in time I believe we'll see lots that cater to that, but what Spiderman is is a shining example that you can't play it safe in gaming.

If it was really made safe and by the book or something, it would have suffered the same fate as the rest of those other Spiderman titles.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

I had more fun with Spider-Man than I'm having right now with TLOU2. Spider-Man is one of 2 games that I platinumed. Traversal was fun enough to carry me through the entire game. I even collected all those stupid backpacks.

That said, I really like art of TLOU2. I even own the official art book. Story is meh, characters are a huge step down from the first game, levels are still too linear and combat would be nothing to talk about if not for amazing gore and satisfying animations.

I really would like to see Naughty Dog's take on open world genre. They want to create these hyper realistic games but the illusion breaks so easily when game world is almost entirely a linear corridor with yellow painted ledges showing you the only way to progress further. This is archaic game design.

 

[PanzerAzel]

not really. Even as a massive fan of Part 2 and even someone on here who really wanted those features in the game, no where do they ever promise it or state thats coming or even imply it or something.

Nothing in their comments suggest it was suppose to be The Last Of Us 2's gameplay 1.1 verbatim or something weird like that.

So I wish it was in the game, I think they should have actually redesigned it to be in the game in terms of the levels and its even the reason I'm no longer buying it day 1, but Stooky is still correct on this, they gave a list of a lot of changes that simply don't have dodge or prone that still fit what they said about adding those changes, simply not 100% exactly what you and I wanted.

That doesn't make them liars or anything of the sort as they can still say they made those changes to make it modern, yet it actually not be 100% like The Last Of Us 2. Prone and dodge are not like default things in all games to really make it sound like it would be expected regardless or something.

You're correct, there was no explicit declaration that the gameplay would be lifted from TLoU II and used in the Remake, but a case can absolutely be made it was heavily implied. The fact that this controversy even exists evidences how loosely they are playing with terms (which I do not believe to be unintentional) that people attribute to certain qualities in a game, and have correlated with a sequel as that's the sole reference material we have to compare when the qualifier modern is introduced. I've never argued, nor felt, that it needed to be an exact 1:1 clone of TLoU II gameplay, but I was hoping to see some improvements in the combat at least. And while I'm reserving final judgement until release, the leaks appear to be 1:1 with the original.

......and when they say the gameplay has been "modernized" and especially "combat has been redone from the ground up" by the game's very director, you're going to find me a difficult person to persuade that they are not being intentionally deceptive when the combat is shown that doesn't stand concordant with such assertions. At least some differences should be apparent to that which has been alluded to, and it bewilders me that they seem to have poured so much effort into every aspect of this release except the encounter design. If anything, I find it ridiculous that people are attempting to frame those who are taking issue with these leaks as entitled or that they are extrapolating some ridiculous expectation from nothing. That's simply not the case. I maintain that a reasonable person would naturally infer what so many apparently have given ND's and Sony's use of vernacular. Finally, as for them lying.....this is a $70 dollar release of an old game, remake or otherwise. As such, they need to come out and do everything they can to justify such cost. That they didn't reeks to me of, if we're not to the point of explicitly lying, then being incredibly disingenuous in their phrasings to afford them the ability to market this remake under the benefit of the best of what TLoU II offers gameplay wise, while not actually having to do the work.

$70. It's a scummy and slimy way of having your cake, and getting to eat it, too.

 

[Stooky]

I’m only selective within the constraints of TLoU II, as that’s what was implied in terms of improvements. “Modernized”=TLoU II in the context of how they framed it, there’s no way around that connection. And I define gameplay (in its simplest form) as the moment to moment interplay and feedback between game systems, mechanics, game feel and the player.

By that definition, I find the differences between TLoU I and II‘s combat to be much larger than just prone, jump or dodge offers. It’s not just mechanics, it’s found in the nuances and subtleties in the portrayal of the engagements and the feeling of desperation and just narrowly surviving by the skin of the teeth. It was decent in the first game, they jacked it up massively in the sequel.

That’s mostly what I was hoping to see with this modernization of gameplay, little did I know it wouldn’t even be happening.

I've worked on these game systems and what they described is modern in its implementation. Going from TLOU which is a few stacked animations playing to a Motion matched move set which is hundreds of small animations blending in and out is a HUGE overhaul. I don't think the average gamer understands this. I would call that modern 100%. Things like going prone in the industry is a gameplay mechanic. I'm curious to see how this modernized gameplay feels with motion matching how it compares to the OG. Is it more more fluid, responsive, detailed? I was hoping for some TLOU2 gameplay love in the remake. But that's not what they envisioned for this remake. Missed opportunity maybe. well see when it comes out. I'm definitely picking it up.

Insomniac has become the premier Sony first party studio. High quality. Quick development time. I don't know how are they doing it.

Yes and no. I don't see Insomniac taking the risk that Naughtydog does with their games, Shit most studios wouldn't attempt to try do a naughty set piece or the story of TLOU2, its really hard to get it right. As for Insomniacs out put, as of now yes they have quick output, their team is almost triple the size of Naughty Dogs. So yeah they can do that. Naughty Dog is still kinda a one game at a time studio.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Yes and no. I don't see Insomniac taking the risk that Naughtydog does with their games, Shit most studios wouldn't attempt to try do a naughty set piece or the story of TLOU2. As for Insomniacs out put as of now yes they have quick output, their team is almost triple the size of Naughty Dogs. So yeah they can do that. Naughty Dog is still kinda a one game at a time studio.

In 15 years, Naughty Dog released 5 Uncharted games and 3 The Last of Us games. Are they really taking such huge risks?

They most likely have nothing to say in the matter anyway. They will do whatever Sony wants them to do. I doubt that a super creative person like Neil was interested in remastering The Last of Us, again. All these people could be working on something new. You know, take risks and stuff.

 

[Stooky]

In 15 years, Naughty Dog released 5 Uncharted games and 3 The Last of Us games. Are they really taking such huge risks?

They most likely have nothing to say in the matter anyway. They will do whatever Sony wants them to do. I doubt that a super creative person like Neil was interested in remastering The Last of Us, again. All these people could be working on something new. You know, take risks and stuff.

Those set pieces in those games are HARD to do, and huge risk if you can't pull it off. You gotta have amazing programers, amazing artist, amazing designers/scripters and a healthy budget. Its why you don't see them in every game. Its why ND is an industry favorite. I like the idea of TLOU remake so that it has the quality of TLOU2. I played the OG before TLOU2 and its looks super dated.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

So, your only argument is, "That's a bad idea. No one would complain."

Dude- your argument makes no sense. When has any dev ever worried about making their most recent game better than their last game? Think about what you are saying ...it's laughably nonsensical yet you are saying the opposite makes no sense.

 

[Fredrik]

After watching it a few more times.. I can now appreciate the upgrades but still don't appreciate the price.

That’s my thinking as well. I want to play it and I will play it, but not while it’s sold for $70.

As someone said earlier they should at least have a discount for those who bought the previous version(s).

 

[MidGenRefresh]

I like the idea of TLOU remake so that it has the quality of TLOU2. I played the OG before TLOU2 and its looks super dated.

First TLOU is not super dated because of the graphics. It has some of in not the best graphics of that generation. Do all PS3/360 games look super dated all of the sudden? First TLOU is super dated because of its gameplay. Gameplay was not great when the game was new and now it's just unacceptable. Same applies to level design. I'm playing it right now and I literally laughed out loud when I entered the area outside of safe zone in Boston and there were yellow "CAUTION UNDER CONSTRUCTION" ribbons flapping in the wind to guide me where to go. Like, is that really necessary when your level is basically a narrow corridor and there's only one way to progress anyway?

 

[Lysandros]

Kz2 pillar destruction looks better, still…

Cell was a beast, it could destroy pillars easily.

 

[DForce]

Dude- your argument makes no sense. When has any dev ever worried about making their most recent game better than their last game? Think about what you are saying ...it's laughably nonsensical yet you are saying the opposite makes no sense.

No, my argument makes perfect sense.

This is a remake\remaster and NOT a sequel to TLOU 2. When games are remade/remastered, devs try to stick close to the original mechanics as much as possible. This is based on the simple fact that gamers generally don't like things changed.

The only argument you guys are making is that the devs said they were going to modernize it, so that means they should've added TLOU 2's mechanics. If my argument made no sense, then you wouldn't have a history of 15+ years of gamers complaining about changes being made to remakes/remasters that were not originally in the game.


If they remade Tekken 3, do you think we're going to see the same juggle combos that were featured in modern Tekken titles?
If they remade Resident Evil 1 again, do you think we're going to see the dodge mechanics\melee mechanics in Resident Evil 3 and 4 Remake?
If they remade Zelda Ocarina of Time, do you think we're going to have the freedom of a bigger open world with the ability to use hundreds of different weapons?
If they remade Mortal Kombat 2, do you think we're going to see all the EX, supers, and juggle combos?


The list goes on. This happens all the time with remasters\remakes.

 

[GymWolf]

Most people who buy this game are probably going to be new to the series.

Imagine if they made TLOU remake's gameplay better than TLOU 2. Do you think they're going to think the gameplay took a step back or that they made minor improvements over Part I? I'm sure they want TLOU 2 to have superior gameplay.

Fiuuu for a moment i thought you were serious...

 

[GymWolf]

Dude, you made my day.

Same, i almost pissed my boxer...

 

[DForce]

Fiuuu for a moment i thought you were serious...

You guys are still unable to give a reason why they should other than "it's the latest TLOU game from ND."

 

[GymWolf]

What I like the most about Miles Morales wasn't just they slapped on RT reflections on what is clearly a last gen game. They actually made almost every single story mission take place in areas that would take full advantage of RT reflections. I remember BFV boasting about RT reflections and only one hotel of one map actually had reflective surfaces. Otherwise, RT was non-existent. Same thing with control. Over half of that game is set in corridors and rooms with no reflective surfaces.

But Insomniac knew that they were making a game that would launch on the PS5 so they made a conscious effort to showcase it in almost every level. Easily the best Sony studio if not the best technical studio in the business right now.

To bad reflections are like what? Half resolution?

 

[GymWolf]

You guys are still unable to give a reason why they should other than "it's the latest TLOU game from ND."

Don't take it in the wrong way, but it is a retarded argument, and i don't like to use thwt term often, but this is alternative world stuff...

No fucking one is gonna be perplexed or whateved feeling you were thinking if a modern remake in a nextgen console play better than his sequel that came out 4 years before in a old console.

You (not you) must be mentally challenged or just a moron to even think something like that is a negative or even strange, and even if you think that for a microsecond, the pleasure of playing a game with better gameplay should erase any stupid thought about a modern remake in a modern console playing better than a 4 years old title on a last gen console, let's be real here dude, you reached the end of the barrell if those are your "defences".

It is already pathetic that people can't hope for a fucking fully nextgen game that is not chained down by a ps3 game in a ps5 console, but this...this is just surreal at this point.

 

[DForce]

Don't take it in the wrong way, but it is a retarded argument.

No fucking one is gonna be perplexed or whateved feeling you were thinking if a modern remake in a nextgen console play better than his sequel that came out 4 years before in a old console.

You must be mentally challenged or just a moron to even think something like that is a negative or even strange, let's be real here dude.

They're likely going to make a Director's Cut for TLOU 2. Tell me again why TLOU Remake's gameplay should be "Better" or the same as TLOU 2 Director's Cut gameplay.

Calling people mentally challenged or a moron doesn't work if you're unable to come up with an argument.

 

[GymWolf]

They're likely going to make a Director's Cut for TLOU 2. Tell me again why TLOU Remake's gameplay should be "Better" or the same as TLOU 2 Director's Cut gameplay.

Calling people mentally challenged or a moron doesn't work if you're unable to come up with an argument.

Oh so now they can't make tlou remake with better gameplay because they are likely to release a tlou2 director cut??


WHO THE FUCK CARES???? Do you care if tlou remake play better? Who the fuckis gonna be angry or confused if tlou remake is gonna play better than an old game? Answer this simple question but we are done here, it is impossible to reason with fanboys.

If you can't see how that argument is retarded and devoided of any logic there is no explanation that i can give you that will satisfy you...you don't even need a damn reason, you are creating a problem that doesn't exist to justify lazy ass developers that promise a ground up ps5 game and give you something that is chained by a ps3 title in almost everything and that doesn't even noticeably more impressive than a damn open world crossgen game like horizon 2, if that game was only on ps5 it would utterly obliterate tlou remake, and it already does if we consider how fucking big it is compared to tlou and how many shit on screen you can have at the same moment.

It is more confusing releasing the same fucking game 3 times in less than 10 years with zero gameplay improvment except the ia that we still have to test.

Sorry if i sound rude, but yeah like i say, bizzarro world narratives in this topic right now...

 

[MidGenRefresh]

 

[DForce]

Oh so now they can't make tlou remake with better gameplay because they are likely to release a tlou2 director cut??

Dude...are for fuckin real or you just love to say stupid shit to waste people time?


WHO THE FUCK CARES???? Do you care if tlou remake play better? Who the fuckis gonna be angry or confused if tlou remake is gonna play better tha an old game? Answer this simple question but we are done here, it is impossible to reason with fanboys.

Show me where I said they "can't" do it. The fact that you're putting words in my mouth just shows me that you're not paying attention.

No one saying that they can't.

I'm telling you developers do this based on a personal choice. You have a 15+ year history of developers NOT waiting to modernize mechanics because they don't want to go too far away from the original mechanics. This is why developers refuse to update mechanics, yet you want to believe they don't do this because "people won't care." Name calling won't get you anywhere. I'm giving out valid reasons why developers refuse to do it, based on their own words and all you're saying is, "who cares." If people didn't care, then they would do it.

If you don't think it's not possible for them to hold back holding the dodge and prone mechanics because they wanted to stay close to the original as much as possible, then you're only lying to yourself.

 

[GymWolf]

Show me where I said they "can't" do it. The fact that you're putting words in my mouth just shows me that you're not paying attention.

No one saying that they can't.

I'm telling you developers do this based on a personal choice. You have a 15+ year history of developers NOT waiting to modernize mechanics because they don't want to go too far away from the original mechanics. This is why developers refuse to update mechanics, yet you want to believe they don't do this because "people won't care." Name calling won't get you anywhere. I'm giving out valid reasons why developers refuse to do it, based on their own words and all you're saying is, "who cares." If people didn't care, then they would do it.

If you don't think it's not possible for them to hold back holding the dodge and prone mechanics because they wanted to stay close to the original as much as possible, then you're only lying to yourself.

The only one lying to himself is you dude, maybe read again how they presented the game, made from the ground up on ps5 but they can't introduce stuff that was on a ps4 game because is gonna break the game or require to much work or because they have to release a tlou 2 director cut..how is this fucking ok or a ground up game made on ps5 when they can't even make the levels larger to accomodate the gameplay features from tlou2.

Made from the ground up on ps5 with level design and gameplay from ps3, gtfo

You can't literally make this stuff up (i mean you can and it is hilarious to read but still...)

 

[GymWolf]

It is super fascinating.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Car companies must hate me. Every car I've owned is a different company. Just by luck, when I had a company car at one time it was also a different brand too.

As for gaming, I'm Xbox lately, but not even 100%. I've been playing PC stuff I find on GOG or Steam. And before that, I covered the whole gambit with multiple Nintendo, Sega and PS systems. Even at the same time (Genesis + SNES).

 

[MidGenRefresh]

It is super fascinating.

Remember Wolf, it's all binary. You must love it and love everything about it. If you like only parts of it then you obviously hate it. God forbid trying to have a discussion about parts you don't like.

 

[GymWolf]

Remember Wolf, it's all binary. You must love it and love everything about it. If you like only parts of it then you obviously hate it. God forbid trying to have a discussion about parts you don't like.

Wolf is my father, call me gym or gymmy.

Wolfie if we fucked in a previous life.

 

[SlimySnake]

To bad reflections are like what? Half resolution?

When I took those screenshots at launch they were 1080p in the native 4k fidelity mode. After launch, right around the time of the Ratchet launch they were able to optimize their ray tracing algorithm to take that from 1080p all the way to 4kcb essentially doubling the resolution and then checkerboarding it to full res.

Unless you are looking at mirror like reflections, I dont think resolution really matters. Reflections are almost always slightly blurry in real life anyway.