Support NeoGAF

[Touch fuzZy. get BizZay]

MARIO KART 4 EVA!!!

 

[Vyse1800]

The agenda is clear as your beat about the head and neck with it. It's like a warning label for the future.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

You dudes reading my post and inferring that my gripe is that TLOU2 isn’t properly diverse are totally off base.

My point is that forced diversity in games leads to garbage like what I described.

Ok so if the game didn't have "forced diversity" it would have turned out any different?

 

[JSoup]

There was a video a couple weeks ago with some lady literally REEEEEing at someone I think on one of those corners.

 

[mr.dilya]

Totally happy with Manny's portrayal. Yes, he curses in Spanish. Surrounded by people cursing in English cause there's a whole lot of cursing in this game. I especially like how Abby and Manny trade banter with her using some Spanish because they are roommates and she is comfortable doing so with him. It's a small thing that says a lot about their relationship. Sure, Manny is a fairly simple character (as are most side characters in the game) but his characterization is handled very well. I think it's quite likely that your interpretation of his character says more about you than it does of TLOU2's "faux diversity."

Also, dude....

Spoiler

like, almost everyone dies. How is that even something to use against his portrayal?

LOL @ his characterization being handled very well. If you have low standards, sure. He could have never have been in the game at all and it wouldn't change anything. Same goes for Jesse. They were just in the game for the sake of being "people of color" and they were killed off once that goal was reached. Yeah lots of people die in the game but their deaths carried zero weight whatsoever.

 

[mr.dilya]

Ok so if the game didn't have "forced diversity" it would have turned out any different?

Yeah if games didn't have to be made to satisfy social agendas these days, the devs could have just had some white characters play those roles and would have instinctively and naturally wrote them better and more believable, which would translate into a better narrative experience. I would have much preferred that.

 

[Danjin44]

Yeah if games didn't have to be made to satisfy social agendas these days, the devs could have just had some white characters play those roles and would have instinctively and naturally wrote them better and more believable, which would translate into a better narrative experience. I would have much preferred that.

??? How characters being "white" would fix story issues!!? For example: Tommy who against Ellie going after Abby and he explain how risky it is at beginning of the game, and near end of the game Tommy ask Ellie to leave her peaceful life with Dina and go after Abby that might end up get her (the girl Joel sacrificed everything to save) killed.

Trust me, adding more "white" characters won't magically fix the story.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Yeah if games didn't have to be made to satisfy social agendas these days, the devs could have just had some white characters play those roles and would have instinctively and naturally wrote them better and more believable, which would translate into a better narrative experience. I would have much preferred that.

So only white characters can be well written? Lets take your complaint about the diminuitive asians. Like how would their story have changed if they were white? Like there's nothing in their story that requires them to be asian at all.

 

[Keihart]

Not to offend OP, but sounds like a purple forum thread.
I'm at least one of the groups you mention were included and honestly, it doesn't feel forced unless you have an axe to grind.

Also, about the cursing...if you read a little about language, you would know how different it's to curse on your own language to a second one, usually cursing in a foreign language holds almost no weight.

 

[mr.dilya]

So only white characters can be well written? Lets take your complaint about the diminuitive asians. Like how would their story have changed if they were white? Like there's nothing in their story that requires them to be asian at all.

For western developed games yes, since most western video game developers are white.

And if those Asian characters were white they would have been written differently and with more agency. Yara would probably serve a greater purpose than a burden and cheap plot tool to make lev a no frills Ellie. Shit is corny.

 

[Danjin44]

For western developed games yes, since most western video game developers are white.

Well then I guess Japanese developers should have made Resident Evil and MGS characters Japanese.....right?

Edit: Oh right I guess in Ghost of Tsushima all the characters should be white because its being made by western developers.

 

[mr.dilya]

Not to offend OP, but sounds like a purple forum thread.
I'm at least one of the groups you mention were included and honestly, it doesn't feel forced unless you have an axe to grind.

Also, about the cursing...if you read a little about language, you would know how different it's to curse on your own language to a second one, usually cursing in a foreign language holds almost no weight.

I would be banned for posting this there. I’m not a dark skinned person begging for white people to accept me and throw me a bone. Non whites like me have no business on that site.

I fail to see what point you are trying to make about language. Most Spanish or any other ethnic minority for that matter will not start cursing in their native tongue in a room full of white people unless they didn’t know any English at all.

 

[mr.dilya]

Well then I guess Japanese developers should have made Resident Evil and MGS characters Japanese.....right?

Those are games meant to give off a cartoony vibe, completely different dynamic.

The last of us is a series that is also fantasy but hangs it’s hat on being an ultra realistic interpretation of something that could actually happen, with characters that evoke real emotions. A Japanese dev team could never make the first last of us game hit the way it did with an American audience. It would have to be something that spoke directly and primarily to a Japanese audience to have the same effect.

 

[Woggleman]

The leader of the WLF was actually a good character despite how little screen time he got. He had a presence about him and there was a coldness in his eyes that told a story.

 

[Danjin44]

Those are games meant to give off a cartoony vibe

Even Silent Hill!? I'm sorry but your logic makes zero sense to me, I have my issues with TLOU2 story but none of it has anything to do if the characters were "white" or not.

 

[Keihart]

I would be banned for posting this there. I’m not a dark skinned person begging for white people to accept me and throw me a bone. Non whites like me have no business on that site.

I fail to see what point you are trying to make about language. Most Spanish or any other ethnic minority for that matter will not start cursing in their native tongue in a room full of white people unless they didn’t know any English at all.

There is a heavy difference in how the brain feels when using a native language curse word to one in your second language. So when you are really swearing, without a second thought and with the emotional response that goes with it, you most probably are going to do it in your native language.

Here, i did some google for you, you are free to find other sources if you want, there are lots to choose from:
Bad language: why being bilingual makes swearing easier

 

[Woggleman]

Death Stranding and the MGS series don't have cartoony vibes either and they feature mainly non-Japanese characters.

 

[REE Machine]

This game certainly pisses of some people a lot.

Success will do that to you. Ask Ali, Mayweather, Brady, Jordan, Gretzky etc

 

[Keihart]

This game certainly pisses of some people a lot.

I wonder actually how is this game received by the more triggerable crowd...the game does a lot to trigger you on purpose, but it's never what it seems at first glance.
My favorite example it's the bigot sandwiches, if you get triggered, you would think that it's a comment in how awful Seth is but in closer inspection it's really talking about how immature Ellie is, which is reinforced by a couple more scenes later in the game and how the game wraps up.

 

[Aggressive Carrot]

TLOU2 has the most violence towards minorities in video game history.

Shit, twitter needs to know this.

 

[MagnesG]

This is getting exhausting when all points had come across, what's else there to discuss for?

 

[MrJTeera]

Stereotypical Mexican guy with an accent calling people pendejos, because of course, that’s what Mexicans do. Of course he gets killed.

Also, he’s a fucking weeb.

Enjoy your Mezcal and Princess Mononoke in Hell, pendejo!

 

[Keihart]

Also, he’s a fucking weeb.

Enjoy your Mezcal and Princess Mononoke in Hell, pendejo!

My take away from that pic is that...it's very cool that Abby's shotgun hast different colored shells for incendiary ammo and it's the same amount you have in reserve.

 

[Raonak]

It's the world of the last of us.... Most characters, regardless of ethnicity, have bad things happen to them.

It would feel forced if they didn't get killed or do horrific shit.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Its always cringe when the checklist is being added into games and series. Asian guy? check Lesbian couple both from different background even? check. This game has a Jew, Asian, white, Black, trans, lesbian, redneck bigot and pretty much everything under the sun. I don't mind that fact, but I mind its being done with certain intent. Just to keep a few whiners happy and try to cater to everyone. See how that backfires. The game is victim to virtue signalling anyway.

Even more stupid was RE5. I agree Africa was a dumb setting for RE, but if the game takes place there, and it looked like Somalian townships or something, then why the fuck was half the population there white and latin? It didn't make sense at all. Shooting latins in RE4 was just fine apparently. But shooting blacks? no go. Then don't choose that location to begin with, and go for something like Europe. No one would bat an eye if all you fucked up white infected people exclusively (they would probably moan there isn't diversity in cannon fodder, lol).

And at the end of the line, its just games.

 

[Geki-D]

Those are games meant to give off a cartoony vibe, completely different dynamic.

No, they're not, like at all. MGS might have humour in it and RE might have turned out corny because of the voice acting but both of those games were played straight.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

Spoiler

One of the things that bothered me is the pregnancies. We know this is written by a progressive and progressives are 'Pro Life'. The argument goes that the unborn child is not a child until born, which is why women should have the freedom to decide the fate of their fetus. Here's the problem though: TLOU2 leans heavily into the concept of killing a pregnant woman, in the sense that our protagonists (the audience) needs to feel guilty about also killing an unborn child .

Do you see the problem there? You can't on one hand be pro life but on the other expect your audience to feel bad about killing a pregnant woman. Either the baby is a life to be taken or it's not a life to be taken. Playing with that, as a progressive, exposes a subconscious need to devalue a baby in order to hold onto the notion of female empowerment, not a genuine philosophical standpoint.

Pro Choice doesn’t automatically mean abortion. For example my mom is pro choice. 5 kids later, she has always made the same choice. Abby maybe should have smacked Dina wake and asked her if she was prochoice. Just cause someone is going to get a abortion, doesnt mean im going to go kick some bellies. And it has nothing to do with the audience. Btw Abby didnt care, Lev did. Same way Joel would probably easily kill anyone but a 12 year girl. I for example would always pick to keep a child, would pay child support, and im still pro-choice. Just cause I love fucking without a condom doesnt mean I can tell women what to do with their bodies.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Pro Choice doesn’t automatically mean abortion. For example my mom is pro choice. 5 kids later, she has always made the same choice. Abby maybe should have smacked Dina wake and asked her if she was prochoice. Just cause someone is going to get a abortion, doesnt mean im going to go kick some bellies. And it has nothing to do with the audience. Btw Abby didnt care, Lev did. Same way Joel would probably easily kill anyone but a 12 year girl. I for example would always pick to keep a child, would pay child support, and im still pro-choice. Just cause I love fucking without a condom doesnt mean I can tell women what to do with their bodies.

Naaa, it's inconsistent. The whole pregnancy thing is just a mechanic to make those deaths/threats feel more significant but they're not according to progressives because a fetus isn't a baby until it's born. We can argue all day but it shows the complete hypocrisy of progressives. TLOU2 is riddled with on the nose crap like this.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Abortion would've been long fulfilled if that had been Mel's choice. She clearly chose to keep the child. Abortion happens in an early stage. She looked like she was about to deliver. Abortion is illegal past a certain stage, I believe 22 weeks in my country. From then its probably considered too developed to end it.

Its never easy. But keeping a baby under certain conditions (like rape, which the woman never chose for by default) isn't easy either.

In this game however, yeah, its there for shock value. Both weren't happy couples with the fathers either, which is probably another layer. Hell, one was a pregnant lesbian even.

 

[CAB_Life]

I mean, going back to a post from yesterday or so, which had me re-examining the BLM manifesto, which continuously talks about “blackness” and black identity, as if that’s one rigid and tangible set of behaviours, speech and interests that all black or aspiring-to-be-black people should possess. A list that surely isn’t infallible, and I—being biracial—have never identified with the more stereotypical aspects of that part of my makeup. In fact, by current logic I’d be called an Uncle Tom or white apologist by idiots too set in their ideology to remember that math came from the Greeks, slavery was ubiqutitous at various points in history and perpetuated by people of all colours and nationalities and that we—humans—are mostly a collection of contradictions and faults who gradually, ideally, move toward a state of not being so shitty towards ourselves and the planet.

I won’t be lumped into some collective identity or told what to like because of my skin colour, interests, etc. It’s absurd that so many are blind to how bigoted and repressive identity politics are. They force us to look at our differences rather than past them, through them or around them. It’s the most patent and clear kind of discrimination you can perpetuate. The most woke new media is always so superficially and ironically racist; reinforcing sterotypes far more than it dismantles them.

 

[The_Mike]

I am a huge fan of both games but I do hope in the next one there is a black character who is still alive at the end of the game.

Druckmann: I hear you bro, our new black tranny will survive the apocalypse. Abby survived the clickers (which are nearly gone in the 2nd),and this new black tranny will complete the franchise.

 

[Danjin44]

Man, I feel my issue with TLOU2's story is so different from rest of you guys. For me it has nothing to with "agenda" or "SJW" or all that political BS that some people are pissed off about. To me my biggest issue is most of the character's actions don't make nay sense to me.

For example: Near End of the game, Ellie finally finds location of Abby and while going in there she keep saying "Abby, Abby, Abby, Abby" at that point you would think she is ready to tear her a part but when she finally finds her, she is all tied up and weak, but she lets her go. I thought okay......I guess she wants to kill her with her own hand but no she lets her go and they both go to the boat and then Ellie get little flash back of Joel's beat up face to remind her she came all the way here to get her revenge.......but she wants for Abby to fight back......I was starting to lose what Ellie's motivation here, is she angry at Abby killing Joel or pissed off that she lost to her in their last fight.......I guess she wants to fight fair and square......but no! In this abby fight with bare hands while Ellie as her knife.

After all that in the end Ellie lets her go, while in the process losing her finger and her loved one.....So is the game trying to tell me that revenge is pointless? because it worked out for Abby not only she got her revenge against Joel but also she was saved from starving to death thanks to Ellie deciding to get her revenge.....This whole thing felt confusing and pointless.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Man, I feel my issue with TLOU2's story is so different from rest of you guys. For me it has nothing to with "agenda" or "SJW" or all that political BS that some people are pissed off about. To me my biggest issue is most of the character's actions don't make nay sense to me.

For example: Near End of the game, Ellie finally finds location of Abby and while going in there she keep saying "Abby, Abby, Abby, Abby" at that point you would think she is ready to tear her a part but when she finally finds her, she is all tied up and weak, but she lets her go. I thought okay......I guess she wants to kill her with her own hand but no she lets her go and they both go to the boat and then Ellie get little flash back of Joel's beat up face to remind her she came all the way here to get her revenge.......but she wants for Abby to fight back......I was starting to lose what Ellie's motivation here, is she angry killing Joel or pissed off that she lost to her in their last fight.......I guess she wants to fight fair and square......no in this abby fight with bare hands while Ellie as her knife.

After all that in the end Ellie lets her go, while in the process losing her finger and her loved one.....So is the game trying to tell me that revenge is pointless? because it worked out for Abby not only she got her revenge against Joel but also she was saved from starving to death thanks to Ellie deciding to get her revenge.....This whole felt confusing and pointless.

Spoiler

I seriously disagree with the idea that revenge worked out for Abby, she loses nearly everyone and is a wasted husk of her former self by the end.

 

[Danjin44]

Spoiler

I seriously disagree with the idea that revenge worked out for Abby, she loses nearly everyone and is a wasted husk of her former self by the end.

Really!? To me it felt she starting losing things because she started helping those kids the even made Abby go against her own people and Mel hated Abby's guts for brutally killing Joel?......or love triangle? I wasn't really sure at that point. It was only Owen but Abby already decided not come with them because of Mel. I don't know it felt like most things happened to her has very little to do with her revenge.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Really!? To me it felt she starting losing things because she started helping those kids the even made Abby go against her own people and Mel hated Abby's guts for brutally killing Joel?......or love triangle? I wasn't really sure at that point. It was only Owen but Abby already decided not come with them because of Mel. I don't know it felt like most things happened to her has very little to do with her revenge.

Spoiler

Without her taking revenge on Joel, Ellie/Dina/Tommy/Jesse wouldn't have hunted her people down.

 

[Danjin44]

Spoiler

Without her taking revenge on Joel, Ellie/Dina/Tommy/Jesse wouldn't have hunted her people down.

Thats the thing, when we were playing as Abby, it felt like she was mostly fighting against Scars and later on WFL themselves more than Ellie's group, there was no really battle against them until near the end.

 

[Kadayi]

There’s a lot brainfart moments with the story. Seems critics simply ignored them or were too lazy to point them out.

^ This.

The story is what it is. I've read a lot and watched a lot of fairly detailed critiques of the game and its abundantly clear that there's a lot wrong with the game in terms of its narrative, structure and pacing for many people. Personally I found a lot of aspects incongruous to the post-apoc setting that constantly broke immersion. Even simple stuff like Ellie & Dina finding that recently dead dudes secret weed farm for instance, as if somehow in the post-apocalypse growing weed would need to be discreet. Does Jackson operate a no drugs policy or something? It's a small thing, but there's just no sense that Druckmann really mentally escaped either the past or the present to truly put himself into the setting in terms of character mindset versus simply use it as background wallpaper with modern mores thrown on top and in that regard a lot of problems arise.

I must admit I hadn't really picked up on the racial aspects as brought up by the OP, but yeah there's a lot of a problems there for sure. I especially can't say I cared for the scene where Ellie has no choice but to beat Nora at all. As much as I like a told tale in games, honestly the true strength of the medium of storytelling in games comes from interactivity and certain situations in game honestly felt like a bit of player choice being introduced wouldn't have gone amiss, that extended beyond 'how will I go about killing these fools in this section?'. There's no reason when developing a sequel to not think about expanding how players can navigate the experience, both in terms of the game play as well as choice and consequence.

The more disturbing aspect of all of this though, is that once again the apparent lack of any story critical opinions from within the professional gaming press circles. We've been down this road before with Mass Effect 3, with major site critics all heaping on plaudits and high scores at the time, whilst actual fans and players were left wondering how and why seemingly none of them took issue with the narrative, etc. Game writing as a whole is never going to truly excel whilst the big sites continue to give a green light to mediocrity delivered in a nice looking package. Instead we're reliant on the likes of developers themselves like Vaum with Disco Elysium to actually push the envelope of these things, and for the likes of Youtubers like ACG, Skillup and Yongyea to be a bit more measured in their takes.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

Naaa, it's inconsistent. The whole pregnancy thing is just a mechanic to make those deaths/threats feel more significant but they're not according to progressives because a fetus isn't a baby until it's born. We can argue all day but it shows the complete hypocrisy of progressives. TLOU2 is riddled with on the nose crap like this.

Theres nothing inconsistent. Youre projecting. This game has nothing to do with prochoice. OR DOESS IT. Actually you might be into something here. Does naughty dog not give a fuck about the environment? There’s trash all over the game. Ellie has to pick up bottles all game. Freaking progressives. Clearly global warming doesnt exist. And they are killing doctors cause they dont want vaccinations? Youre right... Naughty Dog might a be a hard right conservative developer. Between deadnaming people that cut their hair, portraying single dads and lesbians as murderous villains... this game clearly shows what would happen if Obama became president.

 

[Rien]

Yeah I stand corrected!

 

[Umbral]

Theres nothing inconsistent. Youre projecting. This game has nothing to do with prochoice. OR DOESS IT. Actually you might be into something here. Does naughty dog not give a fuck about the environment? There’s trash all over the game. Ellie has to pick up bottles all game. Freaking progressives. Clearly global warming doesnt exist. And they are killing doctors cause they dont want vaccinations? Youre right... Naughty Dog might a be a hard right conservative developer. Between deadnaming people that cut their hair, portraying single dads and lesbians as murderous villains... this game clearly shows what would happen if Obama became president.

The game has a line where Jesse asks Ellie if Dina is going to keep the baby.

That’s something you might ask nowadays, but not something that would be asked in the situation they find themselves in. They need all the people they can get. It’s out of place, so it’s either bad writing or signaling.

 

[namekuseijin]

This thread is literally, white people arguing with white people about how minorities should be represented in video games lmfao. As a minority i find this hilarious. RELAX GUYS ITS JUST A GAME MADE BY A WHITE DUDE LOL

yeah, put that white privileged boy out of a job, Sony

and put a buff trans black lesbian with purple armpit hair in his place so we can have some serious action games rather than golf paced walking sims

 

[Woggleman]

The game has a line where Jesse asks Ellie if Dina is going to keep the baby.

That’s something you might ask nowadays, but not something that would be asked in the situation they find themselves in. They need all the people they can get. It’s out of place, so it’s either bad writing or signaling.

Actually it makes sense in an apocalypse if somebody was wondering whether or not they want to bring a child into this world. It is another mouth to feed when day to day survival is hard plus Dina is barely an adult herself. I am sure in that world DIY abortions are not that rare plus the Jackson doctor might know how to perform them.

 

[Keihart]

Naaa, it's inconsistent. The whole pregnancy thing is just a mechanic to make those deaths/threats feel more significant but they're not according to progressives because a fetus isn't a baby until it's born. We can argue all day but it shows the complete hypocrisy of progressives. TLOU2 is riddled with on the nose crap like this.

i know some people would love to pile TLoU2 with the crazy liberals in the states or the likes in REEEE, but let's be honest here, the game intentionally does a lot to separate itself from that crowd. I'm gonna keep bringing up the bigot sandwich, that is such a slap in the face to people who get outraged for everything. The game baits anyone who likes to get triggered into celebrating it only to put them down once you understand the context of it. The game it's criticizing Ellie's attitude, not celebrating it.

 

[Rien]

Right. I agree.

I think most of us could agree; make the game you wanna make. Simple as that. The Artist shouldn’t be held back by anything. They should make what they want....

that being said, with the world we live in, it feels hard to really discern between these elements when so much of this has become politicized and used to pander and not genuinely. It feels gross. It feels exploitative; whether to exploit minorities to prove some progressive bonafides or tocram some sense of subjective, but perceived objective, morality down our throats.

that’s what Hollywood has started doing in the last decade or so, at least earnestly. They sit in their ivory towers and preach. The games world is joining them...

Agreed. It’s never good to push stuff through ppls troath. It works counter productive I think.

 

[Umbral]

Actually it makes sense in an apocalypse if somebody was wondering whether or not they want to bring a child into this world. It is another mouth to feed when day to day survival is hard plus Dina is barely an adult herself. I am sure in that world DIY abortions are not that rare plus the Jackson doctor might know how to perform them.

If that was the attitude of humans in bad situations none of us would be here because our ancestors wouldn’t have wanted to bring us into such a terrible world. Being hunted by animals, scrounging for food and shelter. It is better to bring a child in and take a chance than to intentionally snuff out that life.

I see what you’re saying, but history shows otherwise.

 

[johncaveman12]

OP you are a fucking idiot. You suck as much as TLOU2 does.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

Spoilers obviously.

So is this really what people mean when they say they want more diversity in games?

Stereotypical Mexican guy with an accent calling people pendejos, because of course, that’s what Mexicans do. Of course he gets killed.

Meek and diminutive Asians who need to be protected by a buff white woman. Another timid and vapid Asian character with no personality aside from being a “gamer” who serves no other purpose other than to get stabbed in the neck by Ellie for brutal effect.

The only black characters in the game are on the bad side, one is the main villain, the others fate is to be beaten to death by a teenaged white girl in Ellie and betray her comrades, and the last one is a big nameless black brutish dude who has the strength of a bloater ie; he is portrayed as a monster.

And what’s with the Jesse character? I swear this guy had no purpose on the game aside from being an Asian sperm dispenser for a white lesbian couple to have a trophy POC baby. This is the father of Dinas child, and it’s like he caught a bullet in the head out of nowhere and nobody gave a fuck. I didn’t see pictures of him in their house or anything. Like damn...

So is this it? This is what “minorities” are supposed to expect as representaion?

Shit like this why it’s stupid to expect white developers to provide accurate depictions of other ethnicities in games. I rather they just keep making games with white protagonists. For anything else I’ll just play Japanese games.

To defend it a bit, a lot of latino's do have accents and some may take making him sound totally American as him being white washed so you can't please everyone, Jesse was an Asian who wasn't meek he was a badass and saved Ellie's life so you can't have it both ways there. Conservative old white men do exist in the world so there is nothing wrong with pointing one out just as there wouldn't have been if he had been a person of another background, plus he apologized and tried to make up for his outburst which shows he was at least willing to try to be accepting. Abby is white not so she can be some roided up white savior for minority characters but because her Dad was in the first game and he was white. There were black NPC's in Jackson and Seattle. Nora is only bad if you are only looking at it from Ellie's perspective, she wouldn't rat out where Abby was, she stuck by her friends and she cared for them deeply, if you were on that side she was as good as it gets. You also have no clue how many people of color are on the dev team and were able to provide input.

 

[JerryinSoCal]

No it's definitely an agenda, I couldn't tell you the last time I interacted with a known homosexual person (4.5% of the population) or the last time I have seen a trans person in real life (0.6% of the population), and I'm in the Seattle area.

And this game expects me to believe Ellie's homsexual relationship, and in conjunction with that her mortal enemy is a protector of a trans female just by happenstance? Right....

I'm glad you qualified the homosexual part with "known" because most estimates I've read have us at 10% of the population, I'm not sure how accurate that is but in a place like Seattle unless you are a shut in you've interacted with a gay person recently knowingly or not. Trans is a different story, much smaller percentage of the population.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Man, I feel my issue with TLOU2's story is so different from rest of you guys. For me it has nothing to with "agenda" or "SJW" or all that political BS that some people are pissed off about. To me my biggest issue is most of the character's actions don't make nay sense to me.

For example: Near End of the game, Ellie finally finds location of Abby and while going in there she keep saying "Abby, Abby, Abby, Abby" at that point you would think she is ready to tear her a part but when she finally finds her, she is all tied up and weak, but she lets her go. I thought okay......I guess she wants to kill her with her own hand but no she lets her go and they both go to the boat and then Ellie get little flash back of Joel's beat up face to remind her she came all the way here to get her revenge.......but she wants for Abby to fight back......I was starting to lose what Ellie's motivation here, is she angry at Abby killing Joel or pissed off that she lost to her in their last fight.......I guess she wants to fight fair and square......but no! In this abby fight with bare hands while Ellie as her knife.

After all that in the end Ellie lets her go, while in the process losing her finger and her loved one.....So is the game trying to tell me that revenge is pointless? because it worked out for Abby not only she got her revenge against Joel but also she was saved from starving to death thanks to Ellie deciding to get her revenge.....This whole thing felt confusing and pointless.

I have heard this complaint before but it didn't read that way to me.

For the entire third act, Ellie is deeply conflicted about her feelings of revenge for Abby. She manages to put them aside for a good year+, but still wrestles with it in dark moments. She goes back and forth a lot. Throughout the Santa Barbara segment, it becomes unclear if Ellie is trying to save her or kill her or both. When she sees her tied up, she's pathetic and she wants to save her. But then she is haunted by her unresolved feelings about Joel, and changes her mind again. Then she changes it back at the last second. But it's not a sudden turn, she's been wrestling with this the whole time.

Then we cut to the final scene a flashback to her last conversation with Joel. This is the conversation where, after around two years of being frosty, she finally decides to forgive him. That her forgiving him is allowing her to move on. That's the same thing that happens in the final scene with Abby, and I think the implication is that she thinks about that in that moment and chooses forgiveness.

Abby's arc is similar. She's already taken revenge for her dad, but she chooses forgiveness as well in the theater, and doesn't kill Ellie or Dina. But the rest of her story is about how this quest for revenge has cost her so much and in Lev she learns that it's more important to protect the people you care about than to let them die and avenge them.

It's true that no one really ends up where they meant to in this story and the things they thought they wanted didn't bring them happiness. This is true in the first TLOU as well, they spend the whole game trying to help get a cure for the world, and they not only fail but they make it impossible. But the story is about the character's growth, more than it is about what they've accomplished.

 

[Danjin44]

I have heard this complaint before but it didn't read that way to me.

For the entire third act, Ellie is deeply conflicted about her feelings of revenge for Abby. She manages to put them aside for a good year+, but still wrestles with it in dark moments. She goes back and forth a lot. Throughout the Santa Barbara segment, it becomes unclear if Ellie is trying to save her or kill her or both. When she sees her tied up, she's pathetic and she wants to save her. But then she is haunted by her unresolved feelings about Joel, and changes her mind again. Then she changes it back at the last second. But it's not a sudden turn, she's been wrestling with this the whole time.

Then we cut to the final scene a flashback to her last conversation with Joel. This is the conversation where, after around two years of being frosty, she finally decides to forgive him. That her forgiving him is allowing her to move on. That's the same thing that happens in the final scene with Abby, and I think the implication is that she thinks about that in that moment and chooses forgiveness.

Abby's arc is similar. She's already taken revenge for her dad, but she chooses forgiveness as well in the theater, and doesn't kill Ellie or Dina. But the rest of her story is about how this quest for revenge has cost her so much and in Lev she learns that it's more important to protect the people you care about than to let them die and avenge them.

It's true that no one really ends up where they meant to in this story and the things they thought they wanted didn't bring them happiness. This is true in the first TLOU as well, they spend the whole game trying to help get a cure for the world, and they not only fail but they make it impossible. But the story is about the character's growth, more than it is about what they've accomplished.

To me its more like she was conflicted to live peaceful life with Dina, through out the game she was obsesses with getting her revenge, to point she obsessively calling out her name repeatedly, it hard for me to believe she suddenly has second thought about it. This basically my biggest issue with entire TLOU2's story, lots of the casts act so out of the character, Marlene in Part 2 is entirely different person than from the original game and Abby's father who we saw in flashback saving animals was so eager to sacrifice Ellie without asking her permission or even making sure if it would even work and Tommy in asking Ellie to leave her peaceful life and go after Abby which very good chance get Ellie (the girl Joel tried so hard to protect) killed.

I don't mind playing games that have "unlikable" characters as long as they are interesting but this game was actively trying to make me like these characters and feel sorry for them, but I didn't care for any of them other than Joel, and most them died so casually, in the end I just stoped caring.