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The decision to release a PS4 version (of Gran Turismo 7) was made only fairly recently. - VGC

dano1

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At some point we gotta stop using this as an excuse. How are you abandoning 100 million customers when you've put out product over the last 7/8 years? That makes no sense. PS4 owners still gonna get their "improved stability" patches and indy games. At some point people gotta understand that there is a new kid on the block named PS5 that should get the most attention now. And that's coming from a non PS5 owner. Games shouldn't be watered just because some couldn't grab and/or afford a PS5. But Sony chose the decision to make sure its released on PS4. I just hope it doesn't completely gimp the game just to have it realized on old hardware.
Not an excuse it’s called running a business!! You might understand some day.
 
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CamHostage

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GT3 was easily the biggest showpiece for the PS2 right alongside MGS2.

And yet, to construct it, they built up from the past game technology rather than "start from scratch". Thus GT 2000, which much like GT HD Concept was a mix of the old game and some new technology.


If it happens, a tandem PS5/PS4 release would be the first time they've actually released a GT product (or are least are entertaining the plans; GT7 for PS4 has not yet been announced or listed, it may still be in evaluation while the PS5 product progresses and/or may be a post-release version if they do it) that cuts down to the past gen as well. Usually the Gran Turismo engine has a lot of custom work that isn't friendly for scalability (one of the reasons for the prolonged development timeline for GT PSP, though "perfectionism" ultimately made "GT4 Mobile" not happen in 2005 or 2006 as planned; tech might also have been a factor in the sad lack of a GT release on Vita.) With the way games tend to be built these days, however, the engine would likely be more flexible just by common practice alone (even if an engine is in-house, I don't know if there is a "to the metal" with something like PS5?) From what we've seen of next-gen products so far (and from what we're seeing of projects that are still scoped into 2022 and beyond,) there's not a lot of technology or project scope yet that would set up a dividing line where cross-gen and port-downs are not feasible.

P.S. there will never be destruction in GT, should of learned by now, they dont budge 🤓

Honestly, it's Gran Turismo 7. Seven. Actually, this is the ninth Gran Turismo game (plus one on bikes.) It defines itself.
 
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SlimySnake

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And yet, to construct it, they built up from the past game technology rather than "start from scratch". Thus GT 2000, which much like GT HD Concept was a mix of the old game and some new technology.


If it happens, a tandem PS5/PS4 release would be the first time they've actually released a GT product (or are least are entertaining the plans; GT7 for PS4 has not yet been announced or listed, it may still be in evaluation while the PS5 product progresses and/or may be a post-release version if they do it) that cuts down to the past gen as well. Usually the Gran Turismo engine has a lot of custom work that isn't friendly for scalability (one of the reasons for the prolonged development timeline for GT PSP, though "perfectionism" ultimately made "GT4 Mobile" not happen in 2005 or 2006 as planned; tech might also have been a factor in the sad lack of a GT release on Vita.) With the way games tend to be built these days, however, the engine would likely be more flexible just by common practice alone (even if an engine is in-house, I don't know if there is a "to the metal" with something like PS5?) From what we've seen of next-gen products so far (and from what we're seeing of projects that are still scoped into 2022 and beyond,) there's not a lot of technology or project scope yet that would set up a dividing line where cross-gen and port-downs are not feasible.
I suppose we will see just how different these next gen and last gen versions really are. But typically and by that I mean pretty much in all cases, cross gen games are identical to last gen versions save for some visual enhancements like ray tracing, higher resolutions and higher framerates. Devs just dont bother implementing features that will basically double their work when QA'ng core gameplay features. I highly doubt they will have a different physics engine for next gen. I bet the cars will control identically across both platforms. They might cut various graphical features like smaller crowds, 2d trees etc, but the core gameplay and that means stuff like destruction and other A.I related stuff will be the same.

I was looking at some of the Horizon gifs today for folks calling the first trailer CG and while they look identical to what they showed last year in the cutscene only trailer, they dont even come close to what Avatar is doing. They even hinted at flying being in the game, but its obvious that the visuals just dont look as good when we look at them from the sky. The LODs take a massive hit and the detail just isnt on par with what we see on the ground.


And thats just due to the game being held back by last gen hardware. If the flying is in, it's in both versions. If it's in both versions, you are not going to see Aloy fly faster on the PS5 version simply because that would require them to readjust entire gameplay systems around the higher speeds. It's why we didnt see Miles swing faster on the PS5. The game is designed around the PS4 hardware limitations.

Even if Ubisoft ends up downgrading the shit out of the gif below, it will still look a gen ahead of Horizon because they are using the SSD to stream in assets while flying at high speeds. Their words. This is something even GT couldve used to really push the graphics.



P.S You know whats funny? A couple of days before Avatar was surprisingly announced, I posted some gifs from the movie of them flying at high speeds and riding on the cheetah at high speeds in a discussion about Horizon being held back. People laughed and mocked me for thinking I am expecting way too much. Well, we now have an Avatar game producing these insane visuals doing exactly what I wanted. I wish I could remember what thread that was so i can bump it. ;p

People just dont realize just how powerful these next gen systems are. Primitive shaders are a game changer. SSDs are a game changer. The PS5 and Xbox I/Os and CPUs should let devs go insane. The Avatar visuals are pretty much what we should expect from AAA studios like Naughty Dog and Rockstar. I expect some late gen games to look even better.
 
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GeorgPrime

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"Gran Turismo 7, after all, was outright advertised as a PS5 exclusive in December, although to be fair to Sony, I understand the decision to release a PS4 version was made only fairly recently. For Horizon Forbidden West and God of War, however, these games were always intended to release as cross-gen titles, I was told, but Sony did not mention the last-gen console during the announcement of either title."

Why shouldnt they? There are literally around 120 million PS 4. It will help them to earn money with Gran Turismo.
 

sncvsrtoip

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They are just now getting 3D trees and realtime time of day lighting changes. They are literally already a gen behind with this so called next gen version of the game. No wonder Sony killed Evo Studios, they were making PD look bad.
I may be not obiective as love gt sport but thats just urban legend that polyphony has anything to do with closing evo studio. They just had massive server problems on premiere and no killer feature of beautiful weather shstem. It was very good arcade racing after patches but premiere was just like 6 months too early. But still bad decison ofcourse to closing them. Also gt sport is best graphicaly 60 fps racing game by far on base consoles (just watch fm7 comparison on df), and also in terms of multiplayer structure, wheel support etc they don't have even competition in simcade department. So yeah, after additinal content gt sport is best simcade on market, tough for sure gt7 trailer was underwhelming + crossgen (but after yesterday news that fanatec direct wheel and probably loadcell are oficial equipment + probably full psvr2 support I still think it can be briliant).
 
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ksdixon

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And to jump on the crossgen wagon, people are forgetting games like Call of Duty for the next 3 years after PS4 showed up were selling on PS3 as well. Hell even the very first cross-gen title Ghosts looked miles better than the PS3 version. So no, next gen games dont suffer because they are released on a inferior platform as well. The inferior one is the gimped / cut-out version of the original. What, you dont think GT7 wont look better on your PS5 in higher resolution, ray tracing, faster loading...none of that is available for PS4. Problem is people think every developer is going to design their game differently jsut because theres an SSD. Some will but seriously, what you expect a racing game to change in its design?

Literally, you cant even say what different can they do but..oh if it was next gen only we would see some never before seen design choices...NO, its a sim racer, you got a main menu, car select screen and a race track. If a loading time of 2 seconds doesnt impress you from when you click START and actually start the race then i dont know what you expect these games to achieve. They wont be sucking your dicks thats for sure.
Putting aside the fact this example in particular is a racing game, the reason people think that last gen will be a weight around the necks of current gen has a lot to do with this talk right here.


You can't realistically say that everything has to change, then tell us that mostly everything aside from DS, RNC, Returnal will be cross gen, and not expect pushback. How is this so hard for people to understand.
 

bender

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You can't realistically say that everything has to change, then tell us that mostly everything aside from DS, RNC, Returnal will be cross gen, and not expect pushback. How is this so hard for people to understand.

Plans change. Global supply is causing manufacturing issues in most industries, but tech has bit hit particularly hard and things aren't going to get better before 2023. Sony and Microsoft are probably well behind their projected install bases. Games are expensive to make and you have massive userbases from previous generation hardware. It's easy to see why they'd leverage that sales potential.

We can all be petulant about Sony's poor communication and marketing but at some point, reality needs to set in.
 

Jibran#one

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I've said it before and I'll say it again crossgen and crossplay is good for racing games , u can literally make the game 720p on PS4 , drop other settings to make it work but in the long term the online population and multiplayer will stay alive for a long time because of PS4 players
Forza horizon 4 is still full of players even after 2 years because of crossplay and crossgen
 
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SlimySnake

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I may be not obiective as love gt sport but thats just urban legend that polyphony has anything to do with closing evo studio. They just had massive server problems on premiere and no killer feature of beautiful weather shstem. It was very good arcade racing after patches but premiere was just like 6 months too early. But still bad decison ofcourse to closing them. Also gt sport is best graphicaly 60 fps racing game by far on base consoles (just watch fm7 comparison on df), and also in terms of multiplayer structure, wheel support etc they don't have even competition in simcade department. So yeah, after additinal content gt sport is best simcade on market, tough for sure gt7 trailer was underwhelming + crossgen (but after yesterday news that fanatec direct wheel and probably loadcell are oficial equipment + probably full psvr2 support I still think it can be briliant).
Regarding Forza, I think its important to keep in mind that they had a 40% spec disadvantage, not to mention the ESRAM bottlenecks. Forza Horizon looked way better despite being open world because they limited their framerate to 30 fps. But yes, GT did look incredible especially considering they were aiming for 1080p 60 fps on a console with shitty jaguar cores.

it did come at a cost. 2d trees. no destruction. bad weather effects limited to like 3 tracks iirc. Now I see that they are targeting native 4k at 60 fps with ray traced reflections which feels like a gigantic waste of resources when they couldve easily gone for 4kcb 60 fps. I think they knew all along they were making a ps4 port which is why they went native 4k 60 fps. I suspect kaz is looking to do a 1440p 120 fps mode for both VR and standard 120 hz tvs.
 

sncvsrtoip

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Regarding Forza, I think its important to keep in mind that they had a 40% spec disadvantage, not to mention the ESRAM bottlenecks. Forza Horizon looked way better despite being open world because they limited their framerate to 30 fps. But yes, GT did look incredible especially considering they were aiming for 1080p 60 fps on a console with shitty jaguar cores.

it did come at a cost. 2d trees. no destruction. bad weather effects limited to like 3 tracks iirc. Now I see that they are targeting native 4k at 60 fps with ray traced reflections which feels like a gigantic waste of resources when they couldve easily gone for 4kcb 60 fps. I think they knew all along they were making a ps4 port which is why they went native 4k 60 fps. I suspect kaz is looking to do a 1440p 120 fps mode for both VR and standard 120 hz tvs.
Yeah I’m not a fan of rt in gt7 and targetting native 4k (would defenitly prefer top not environment textures, foliage etc) but on trailer rt probably wasn't used during gameplay
 
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Panajev2001a

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Putting aside the fact this example in particular is a racing game, the reason people think that last gen will be a weight around the necks of current gen has a lot to do with this talk right here.


You can't realistically say that everything has to change, then tell us that mostly everything aside from DS, RNC, Returnal will be cross gen, and not expect pushback. How is this so hard for people to understand.
Plans do change and they have not said you will not have more PS5 only exclusives from them… I know you cover it with the hand wavey “mostly everything”, but still it is what it is 🤷‍♂️.

Personally I think they will see game sales being heavily heavily skewed in favour of PS5 and they will see that supporting PS4 for some titles will be a net disadvantage as it will just lower the PS5 version impact.
 
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Negotiator101

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If this was a decision that was made recently then surely GT7 will be taking better advantage of the PS5 hardware if it had been cross gen from the beginning.

Talking about going next gen compared to cross gen, it seems 2022 is looking like the cutoff point for Microsoft but Sony are still supporting PS4 substantially. Its quite funny given Sony's stance on this a year ago.
 
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quest

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Plans change. Global supply is causing manufacturing issues in most industries, but tech has bit hit particularly hard and things aren't going to get better before 2023. Sony and Microsoft are probably well behind their projected install bases. Games are expensive to make and you have massive userbases from previous generation hardware. It's easy to see why they'd leverage that sales potential.

We can all be petulant about Sony's poor communication and marketing but at some point, reality needs to set in.
Except for the little fact the ps5 is selling better than the ps4 or ps3 did lol so stop with the shortage crap. Sony lied to fans and got themselves into this mess. They were the ones who wanted to play up the generations line for 6 months to trash Microsoft in the media and hide cross generation versions of games. Any backlash is on them if they were honest no one would be outraged. Hide cross generation versions for 6-12 months for PR victories and you get this.
 
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Thirty7ven

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There needs to be some sort of option for crossplay because loadings in the PS4 version will be excruciating in comparison and that can ruin online lobbies.
 
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DJ Shalad

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Well, why didn't they do the same back with the PS1, PS2 and PS3.....
Remember when we played GT3 on ps1….nah me neither

Different era
Different times
Different mentality
Different hardware "standards"
Different Industry
Different ways of doing things back in 1999 compared to today

A generational leap back then, was indeed a generational leap. Today not so much ...

It worked back then, it would work now.

Good luck porting a DVD9 PS2 game to PS1, with close to 8GB of data, optimized for a machine with 50x the output capabilities with 10x the amount of vram. The data would require few gigabytes of disc space.

Why are we not porting PS4, PS5 games to the PS2? Economically speaking not viable. No one wants to disc swap every time after picking a car/manufacturer or to simply watch the replay of the race. Makes no sense.
 
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Calverz

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Different era
Different times
Different mentality
Different hardware "standards"
Different Industry
Different ways of doing things back in 1999 compared to today

A generational leap back then, was indeed a generational leap. Today not so much ...
I know. I’m just being facetious. Just a bit disappointing. They shouldn’t hve announced+shown gameplay in june 2020. The console would hve sold out regardless in the first year
 
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Umbasaborne

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Yeah, stuff like vegitation and track detail can be scaled up and down depending on the hardware. Maybe the ps4 version gets 2d foliage while ps5 gets 3d? Im worried about the physics being compromised though.

cross gen fucking sucks. Sony and jim ryan were so full of shit last year with their we believe in generations shit. How ironic is it that the only ones putting out a real next gen racing game next year are microsoft when originally they were supposed to be the ones whose games were held back by cross gen?

it sucks that in the next god of war were gonna have to endure slow loading hallways and crawlspaces just so that the game can run on a ps4, Also i bet horizon would have had flight if it didnt need to run on a ps4 as well.
 

Bryank75

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Different era
Different times
Different mentality
Different hardware "standards"
Different Industry
Different ways of doing things back in 1999 compared to today

A generational leap back then, was indeed a generational leap. Today not so much ...

It worked back then, it would work now.

PS5 adoption is faster than PS4 or any of the predecessors.

The whole thing is just a shortsighted, unambitious attitude to console....it shows so little faith in the model despite all the signals pointing to console generations being THE WAY to game.
I can see them putting money into streaming and advertising PSNow, the ads are everywhere and it's obviously growing at a snails pace because you can now buy some PS games on PC, cannibalizing those subscriptions and on console.....there are better newer games to enjoy.

It all shows a lack of understanding of their brand and why it sells and what their customers want.
 

Shmunter

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to be honest after playing metro exodus ee I wouldn't say its killer feature especially for racing game
By all logic, RT GI combined with proper property based materials PBR should produce realistic looking gfx. Needs ground up development
 

l2ounD

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but its very compute heavy on xsx/ps5 based on amd gpu's so you have find other compromises to enable it and its more visible in indirect light environment that almost not exist in racing games
They bake it in for the track and car interiors which make them look amazing. Who knows if they'll realtime it for PS5 but that new trailer showing the RT reflections in the cockpit was impressive
 

John Wick

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If MS can release FH5 looking that good while being cross-gen. I don't understand why PD can't release GT7 looking fantastic as a crossgen title which was mainly built on PS5.
 
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DemonCleaner

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This game would have featured RT GI if the PS4 version wasn't planned from the beginning.

And you know this how?

Genuinely curious.

one obviously can't know if you're not working at polyphony.

my reasoning is that if you'd go with a fully unfied lighting system (RT DI + GI) you would save tons and tons of tech stuff and artists iteration time and therefore cost. you obviously would not be able to save that, if you had to care for a non-RT last gen version anyways.

furthermore the visual pay off would be grand in lighting situation where current racing games feel somwhat lacking (e.g. overcast weahter).
it would be far greater benefit than the introduction of RT reflections (and i feel that on the fly cubemaps and SSR work kinda good enough for reflections in racing games). you probably can't do both at the same time rendering budget wise [i'd be happy if i was disproven on that in the future]



other reasons why they might have avoided RT GI in the first place:

-120fps mode was a given from the beginning
 
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cormack12

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I guess with the recent comments we actually now have confirmation from Sony that it is definitely cross gen, kudos to all those who said so. Was really hoping this wasn't the case especially as GT:S could still use some of the assets. Hey ho anyway.

 
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KAL2006

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I don't have an issue with $70 game prices. But I do feel prices need to be more variable. Something like Returnal I personally don't think Sony should have charged that much. It's the same with Nintendo, like Breath of the Wild is worth the $60, but something like Mario Party not so much.
 

Nickolaidas

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This is truly amazing. The PS5 shortages will really put a wrench on things and I foresee cross-gen games being released throughout 2022 and half of 2023.
We won't see 1st party PS5-only PS games being the norm for two years more, methinks.
 
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Klik

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If MS can release FH5 looking that good while being cross-gen. I don't understand why PD can't release GT7 looking fantastic as a crossgen title which was mainly built on PS5.
Its not even about graphics, that can be easily downgrade to suit PS4.

The reason why people wanted PS5 exclusive is better physics/tyre model/feel of the road, lobbies with 24+ cars, dynamic weather, better sound, instant loading in online, less bugs etc.


Knowing Polyphony and their goal of making crossgen games very similiar we probably won't get all of that.

Now considering game will be in developlment for 5 years(which is a lot for racing game) we expected true generational leap.

At least i hope we will get full VR support in both campaign/online for PSVR2. If not,i'm getting a PC. VR is a gamechanger for simracing, its really amazing and immersive
 
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Klik

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This is truly amazing. The PS5 shortages will really put a wrench on things and I foresee cross-gen games being released throughout 2022 and half of 2023.
We won't see 1st party PS5-only PS games being the norm for two years more, methinks.
I feel like because of all this PsS5 will last for next 8 years
 
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555-Goodbye

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This is truly amazing. The PS5 shortages will really put a wrench on things and I foresee cross-gen games being released throughout 2022 and half of 2023.
We won't see 1st party PS5-only PS games being the norm for two years more, methinks.
I think you might be right.

If there's a Ps5 Pro, I can well imagine that coming out when the software transition occurs, meaning the base systems won't ever actually get to realise their potential.
 
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