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The decision to release a PS4 version (of Gran Turismo 7) was made only fairly recently. - VGC

Umbasaborne

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Oh noes! That was horrible! Those low poly models of cars! No cockpit view! The horror!

I seriously hope they don’t even consider that route, it really destroyed part of the experience of GT5 especially, and GT6 to a slightly lesser extent.
I think sport used all new car models, they will probably use those models with minor changes for the next decade (they look great). Still, its embarassing how much better the forza games were during the 360’s life cycle than gt was on ps3. They came out faster, the cars were all higher quality, turn 10 didnt skip on detail and take shortcuts like polyphany did for gt 5 and 6, thankfully, polyphany got back on track with gt sport, and gt 7 looks awesome as well
 
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e&e

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So what you are saying is that companies can go back and make a Last gen version of their game then. You don’t say!
 

ethomaz

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I think it do has something to do with it because the supply chain is broken, the stores are closed and the demand is higher than the shipments because most of the people have to much time. Many Countrys had their Borders closed and most of them came with ship instead of flight. Many manufacturer had corona problems with personal being sick or closing complete working shifts because someone got Cov19 etc etc

The global pandemic made it difficult for everybody and even JR said, that he would never ever again launch a product while a global pandemic is on his way.

The entertainment hardware shortage is not just on the Playstation5. Last year you couldnt get a Switch in Germany for example.

P.s. sry for my english since its not my native language.
Same happened with PS4… it was basically selling everything it shipped.

The demand is higher than what any company can produce… so it will take time to stocks normalize.
 
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Shmunter

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Heh - why would anyone be surprised about half of Sony's first party output being cross-gen when its literally never happened in the history of PlayStation?

You mean, apart from them mocking their competitor's open cross-gen policy...

... and stating that they believed a clear line between generations was a necessity for PlayStation 5?


What surprises me is that there are people downplaying Sony's blatant bait-and-switch, while at the same time we have a twenty page thread because a female protagonist has a slightly rounder face than in her previous game. NeoGAF sure is funny some days.


Anyway, back on topic - I'll be curious to see what cut-backs need to be made to GT7 for the PS4 version. If the PS5 version offers 60FPS and the PS4 doesn't, for example, that's a deal breaker for me for a racing game. If we just lose ray tracing and take a hit to resolution, then I'll finally get my PS4 GT title I've been waiting all generation for.
The answer is simple. It will be the same game, PS5 will just add a dash of raytracing, improved asset detail and general IQ improvement. Superficial stuff. You won’t see vastly different simulation despite a gulf in the cpu power.

Typical scalability stuff seen on PC forever. That’s what is expected from a cross gen title.
 

ZehDon

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The answer is simple. It will be the same game, PS5 will just add a dash of raytracing, improved asset detail and general IQ improvement. Superficial stuff. You won’t see vastly different simulation despite a gulf in the cpu power.

Typical scalability stuff seen on PC forever. That’s what is expected from a cross gen title.
Well, we've seen console cross-gen titles have some very interesting differences in the past. I do hope you're right, thought.
 

cormack12

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No what? There's documented history of examples of this exact thing happening numerous times. We've had things like XB360 -> PSP ports (a substantially bigger gap than what we're talking about here) done in under 3 months on a shoe-string budget, not because anyone thought about it during 2 years of development prior - but because someone in publishing thought it would be great to add another SKU after the fact. These ports would usually still ship with all 'core' features intact, and often have additional content over the base version (though granted, they probably got 6 months for those).


All I said was 'it can, and it does happen'. What that would mean to Rift Apart is academic - if they announce a PS4 version I'm sure it'll play about as well as Resogun on PSVita did... Doesn't mean it didn't happen though.


What exactly does backport mean to you? There's no such thing as 0-compromise on any down-port in history, so by that definition - all titles are truly designed for their target hw.

Documented history of what? Remember FH2?

Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-forza-horizon-2-face-off

Playground Games goes one way on Xbox One, while Sumo Digital veers off in its own radically different direction on Xbox 360. What we have here are two versions that share assets, environments, concepts and themes - but in execution each release is to all intents and purposes a completely different game, and that's actually a very good thing.

Sumo Digital hasn't gone out to slavishly trace out the Xbox One blueprint. Certainly in terms of overall technology, that would have been a fool's errand - in pure technical terms, the 360 version cannot hope to compete. The beautiful physically based rendering of Playground Games' version is gone, replaced with a plainer, more flat representation of in-game lighting. Similarly, the remarkable simulation of varying weather conditions has not made its way across to Xbox 360 - weather in the last-gen world is uniformly sunny up against varying conditions on Xbox One from bright skies to lashing storms, incorporating often stunning atmospheric rendering. The gradual shift of the time of day is included, however, but time-lapse comparisons in like-for-like spots demonstrate that Xbox One is a world apart from its last-gen counterpart.

That's pretty much as close as an example of what we can apply to the same situation here. Different developer, shared assets, completely different game under the hood. FH2 could do this as it's more standalone - as in the competitive element wasn't important but with GT you have the FIA etc. that will require consistency across the frame rates, simulation models, weather conditions etc. even the reflections in the wing mirrors/rearview.


I should make it clear, I don't actually care if it is cross gen. Im purely arguing from a technical/plausibility point of view here. I really like GT:S and FH4 for what they are. What I'm contesting is the bullshit article. There's no way a decision of this scale can be made in say, November of last year - particularly for this studio that is known for under delivering content and over delivering delays. If that decision has been made that late and they now have a FH2 situation then this will not make 2022 either in my opinion. Or Q4 at the earliest (if it's an aligned launch). Now there are a few caveats to what I'm saying that I concede are different discussions which are listed below (But for the purposes of here and now, I have assumed GT7 is a true next-gen game leveraging all and every feature and improvement it possibly can).

1. GT7 isn't actually leveraging all the PS5 power and isn't really a true next generation game. It's basically an engine port, some engine enhancements (e.g. lighting, weather) and updated visuals. Hands up, this would appear to be consistent with the gameplay reveal. This makes it easier (not easy) to create a backport or strip away certain elements - this may mean, as a byproduct that certain features are not in the PS5 version again like dynamic weather, the new lighting model.
2. It actually began development as a cross gen title, they realised they had the same limitations as GT:S and pushed for next gen only. They then reversed that decision because of money, market penetration etc.
3. They always planned it to be a PS4 release anyway and the marketing materials were wrong, which let's face it, given the car crash (pun intended) of Sony's video taglines is a possibility.


To be clear what I'm contesting is that:
Polyphony made a true next gen PS5 GT7, complete with engine overhauls that is taking fundamental design advantage of all the new PS5 goodness. Then in November (out of the blue) were told to also create a PS4 version of the same game.

My position is that:
If we run with the above as a reality, then there will be fundamental differences between those games like FH2 and if there aren't then GT7 was never really a next gen anyway.

I think that's extremely fair to be honest. To clarify, this won't make a difference on whether I decide to purchase GT7 or not, I'm just here for the debate an the implications we can deduce from the article. Ultimately why does it matter to us when the decision was made? Whether it was in Feb '20 or Nov '20 we get the same end result, a delayed game. The only reason the timeframe means anything is because it gives

insight into how hard it is to do the port (or)
it is trying to illustrate it was a late reactive decision

The two go hand in hand. Again, the article is very airy fairy and depends completely on this line:

...to be fair to Sony, I understand the decision to release a PS4 version was made only fairly recently.

Why is that your understanding? Where from? Who from? Have the financial forecasts been amended in light of that decision etc.
 
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Allandor

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Any racing game can scale up easily. And for Horizon FW and GOW:R being crossgen is also understandable as both were targeting 2021 which is less than 1 year into the next gen.

So far offering next-gen only games are still there, which makes this year and next look promising. What doesn't sound good to me is the PC BS, but we need to wait and see how it's being handled.
Especially racing games don't scale that well with the CPU (because of the AI). But I guess there will be a 60fps mode for PS5 and a 30 for PS4, this at least reduces the "cpu"-advantage of the PS5 a bit. But I really hope they don't again add this rubberband AI from GT sports.
But that means that finally the PS4 gets a mainline GT game after all that years.
 
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ZywyPL

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If true, that means thete weren't any advancements in the AI, sounds, collisions etc. from the start and being next-gen only wouldn't change a thing. This is sad.
 
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Shmunter

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Especially racing games don't scale that well with the CPU (because of the AI). But I guess there will be a 60fps mode for PS5 and a 30 for PS4, this at least reduces the "cpu"-advantage of the PS5 a bit. But I really hope they don't again add this rubberband AI from GT sports.
But that means that finally the PS4 gets a mainline GT game after all that years.
Nah, no 30 for GT. 60 vs 120 yes.

A PS4 game with enhanced bling for ps5 is all this will be.

Physics and simulation will be Jaguar spec.
 
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kyliethicc

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Nah, no 30 for GT. 60 vs 120 yes.

A PS4 game with enhanced bling for ps5 is all this will be.

Physics and simulation will be Jaguar spec.
That's really all it was ever gonna be. GT Sport 2.0, in 4K 60 with RT and DualSense.

GT is now a major esport and even in the Olympics. Its Sony's big ongoing service game.

They showed off that the main appeal for GT fans will be the revamped singleplayer mode. They went back and looked at GT3/4/5 for some inspiration on what fans of the older games loved, and applied some of that to GT7. They showed that off pretty clearly with the new retro menus, return of Trial Mountain track, etc.

The gameplay in GT is already great, so adding more cars and really using the DualSense is all GT7 needs. More content, better controls, 4K60, fast loading, etc. And the PS5 will have all that. And the PS4 version will look and play like GT Sport, but at least have the new content.

And hopefully a real sizable mode for PSVR2.
 
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lh032

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hopefully this means GT7 will indeed utilize the power of PS5 and then downgrade to PS4, both win to me.
 

Fafalada

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Different developer, shared assets, completely different game under the hood.
You have a very unique definition of 'completely different game' here given that we're talking exact same gameplay with different coat of paint and reduced traffic. That's pretty much the extent of changes between Spiderman PS4 to PS5 there. My entire point was there's no down-porting without compromises anyway. But games at their core have been ported left and right across multiple-generations worth of delta for 20+ years while preserving core game elements, this is a fact, not a debate.
The cost of said conversions is irrelevant - these decisions are not made in spirit of being efficient - more often than not, the exact opposite. So yes, outsourcing to different teams and studios is also pretty standard practice - there are companies out there that have built their entire business model on providing these types of conversion services, some of them are rather large companies by game-dev standards as well.

What I'm contesting is the bullshit article. There's no way a decision of this scale can be made in say, November of last year
And I'm saying there's every way, as this industry is littered with numerous examples of exactly that. Some that I've personally witnessed.
To be clear I'm by no means saying the article is true - just pointing out that it can, and does happen, so in order to categorically dismiss it, we'd need better data than 'I disagree so it didn't happen'.

1. GT7 isn't actually leveraging all the PS5 power and isn't really a true next generation game.
This is going into 'leveraging all of system power' debate that's never clearly defined when brought up.
But realistically what gets released in first 2 years of any system life is based mostly on legacy tech, so yes - by the standards you outline, there are probably no 'true nexgen releases' in first few years, at least looking at the last 20 years of console market.

To be clear what I'm contesting is that:
Polyphony made a true next gen PS5 GT7, complete with engine overhauls that is taking fundamental design advantage of all the new PS5 goodness. Then in November (out of the blue) were told to also create a PS4 version of the same game.
I mean if we want to go there, PD doesn't have a track record of ever delivering tech overhauls that quickly, so that can be dismissed on that basis alone.
But that doesn't say anything about prior existence/plans for a PS4 release.

Ultimately why does it matter to us when the decision was made? Whether it was in Feb '20 or Nov '20 we get the same end result, a delayed game.
I think the reason it matters is that we're nerds on a game-forum that like to debate that. But to go back to PDs track-record, I frankly doubt adding a platform would be the actual cause of delays, as the precedent shows they tend to take their time, with everything, but especially their first release on any new platform.
 
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Keihart

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" these games were always intended to release as cross-gen titles" When? are we re writing the past by saying that first party games are always crossgen at the start of a new generation?
What a fucking joke if this decision was after development was already going full steam, game is gonna get delayed and have to scale back a bunch of stuff probably.
 

Shmunter

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" these games were always intended to release as cross-gen titles" When? are we re writing the past by saying that first party games are always crossgen at the start of a new generation?
What a fucking joke if this decision was after development was already going full steam, game is gonna get delayed and have to scale back a bunch of stuff probably.
It may very well be. We need Jason Shriner on the case. It’s a sizeable con pulled here by Sony. Not speaking personally, but they got a lot of positive PR around generational leap statements that this does deserve an eyebrow raise.
 
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cormack12

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You have a very unique definition of 'completely different game' here given that we're talking exact same gameplay with different coat of paint and reduced traffic. That's pretty much the extent of changes between Spiderman PS4 to PS5 there. My entire point was there's no down-porting without compromises anyway. But games at their core have been ported left and right across multiple-generations worth of delta for 20+ years while preserving core game elements, this is a fact, not a debate.
The cost of said conversions is irrelevant - these decisions are not made in spirit of being efficient - more often than not, the exact opposite. So yes, outsourcing to different teams and studios is also pretty standard practice - there are companies out there that have built their entire business model on providing these types of conversion services, some of them are rather large companies by game-dev standards as well.
But we'e talking about changes like between FH2 and Mordor etc. More fundamental changes that can't be simply lifted and dropped. If you reduce the issues to visuals then yes it will align more closely to your position. Also, there have been consistency in those backports i.e. the limitation was a spinning disk. You can't look at the PS5/XSX and declare that a new paradigm of gaming is upon us; that they are going to fundamentally change game design going forward and then equally in the same breath say everything can be backported with a few compromises. Think of Cernys quote ('A rising tide lifts all boats'), you have a higher watermark now as the baseline. Spinning disks and weak CPU's are no longer the high watermark. Minimum reqs. for next gen games should now be built round SSD and a decent CPU (after the tail end of 3rd party).

If you're using different physics and simulation models then the game is an approximation of the real thing in my opinion. Sure, you can strip out ragdolls from games and have disappearing enemies that flash (old school), is that a compromise? Are demakes acceptable as ports? It's how far you go before you call your line in the sand. How far below the minimum requirements can you go before you say it's an issue.


And I'm saying there's every way, as this industry is littered with numerous examples of exactly that. Some that I've personally witnessed.
To be clear I'm by no means saying the article is true - just pointing out that it can, and does happen, so in order to categorically dismiss it, we'd need better data than 'I disagree so it didn't happen'.
This sort of ties into your second point below so best it gets combined.

This is going into 'leveraging all of system power' debate that's never clearly defined when brought up.
But realistically what gets released in first 2 years of any system life is based mostly on legacy tech, so yes - by the standards you outline, there are probably no 'true nexgen releases' in first few years, at least looking at the last 20 years of console market.
This is where we disagree then. Our starting positions is where the disagreement stems from. So from what I read your starting position of next gen seems to be similar to what Neil Druckmann described. Port over the engines and tools, get the old game up and running and check the heart of the engine all seems to work. Then build up and improve parts of the engine and then probably iterate on the game. A few bells and whistles and it looks like a game fit for the new generation. At this point, yeah it's not unreasonable to assume if that's all what is happening then someone coming in and saying we'll give you an extra year, downport it to run on PS4 again.

So my position is that if a game is being marketed at next gen or PS5/XSX exclusive then I expect the design to be built around that. So, let's give a quick and dorty example because I've typed too much already. God of War and the Yggdrasil portal. So you choose a realm, then push the button and then you get this little animation while the room loads and the tree creates a bridge. I assume this is happening because the game doesn't know what the payer will pick and needs time to dump/load the assets from LoN and for Helheim let's say. So if the new game is designed around next gen, I would expect that to not be there, I would expect he hits a button and something more flashy can happen. Forget the loading, as soon as you choose a realm a massive tear appears in the room and you can step right through. Same with the fast travel and the door.

As for encounters and design, the camera can be pulled back giving a wider FoV which means more enemies can be thrown at the player. Hell, you can even design enemies like Thor and 'adds' like hundreds of ravens attaking Kratos instead of another UFC fight. All these things - to me - are not achievable now we're putting God of War on the PS4 or they would need to be designed around. And at this stage you couldn't have someone come in and say actually we need this on the PS4 as well now, we'll give you an extra year.


I mean if we want to go there, PD doesn't have a track record of ever delivering tech overhauls that quickly, so that can be dismissed on that basis alone.
But that doesn't say anything about prior existence/plans for a PS4 release.
I think it's more applicable here because most see GT:S as a stepping stone or intemediary title, given its content and scope while PP worked on the proper GT7 successor. To hear that actually GT:S could have a had a career mode and GT7 will be on PS4 eats away at that goodwill - in my opinion anyway.


I think the reason it matters is that we're nerds on a game-forum that like to debate that. But to go back to PDs track-record, I frankly doubt adding a platform would be the actual cause of delays, as the precedent shows they tend to take their time, with everything, but especially their first release on any new platform.

 
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Tschumi

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Pretty sure it's happening because they haven't been able to shift enough PS5s (and some of those that they have shifted may be hoarded by scalpers) and they need to expand the customer pool for the games to raise enough funds to get through the covid downturn.

I've been buggered for suggesting this on other threads, but like I don't see what's so controversial about it.
 

SSfox

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I'm so excited for the game, GT is the only car game franchise that always innovate unlike other franchise that just upgrade graphics but with nothing new in term of experience and gameplay.

Can't wait for GT7,!!!!
 
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DaGwaphics

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Thats all GT7 will be. Its GT Sport with new cars, new tracks, and new modes, and better visuals, better audio, much faster loading, and full DualSense support. Which sounds great to me, as a fan of GT.

The similarities between GTS and GT7 is why I believe they can manage to make a PS4 port in like 18 months. Same core tech. Same core game design. Just down res, no RT, add loading screens, no DualSense, lower LODs, etc. Its not that hard for a game that's core design and mechanics are set in stone by real life.

The PS5 I/O doesn't make the Nurburgring any bigger or a Huracan GT3 any faster. Its a sim.

I think you underestimate what the next-gen tech could do for the underlying simulation. For instance what the CPU could do in regards to how the cars handle under different conditions, etc. or how the SSD could be transformative in creating that real life feeling of speed, not to mention the increased detail that would be possible frame by frame.
 

Aidah

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Between all the cross gen they've announced, this one makes the most sense. It already didn't look like a huge jump from the last game. This is probably nonsense.

For the others, if sales of SM:MM are anything to go by, the PS4 versions are basically for no good reason. Seems like the people who moved to PS5 or are eager to move to PS5 are generally the same ones who are eager to buy exclusives. If PS5 versions are making up the majority of sales now for cross gen 1st party, PS4 contribution will be even less significant when those other cross gen games come out.

On the positive side, it'll be easier to hit 60fps on PS5 when you're basically making a prettier version of a PS4 game, and at least the difference in graphics between the best PS4 had to offer and the new Horizon on PS5 is much larger than any 3rd party cross gen game.
 
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Aidah

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is ms changing the xbox one servers to series s/x by next year? if not. you are getting Forza cross-gen. bookmark this
I wonder how much longer until Microsoft releases anything new for their new system.
 

SlimySnake

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If true, that means thete weren't any advancements in the AI, sounds, collisions etc. from the start and being next-gen only wouldn't change a thing. This is sad.
I got a lot of flack for saying this a few years ago but i think Sony killed the wrong internal racing studio. It's clear now that Evolution Studios was far more talented and need the kind of budget and backing PD usually gets. They wanted the GT title for their DriveClub game but Kaz refused meanwhile Playground took the Forza name and turned Horizon into an even bigger franchise than the Motorsport series.

PD is inefficient, dumb (how do you launch a racing game without a career mode?) and not as technically savvy. Still using 2d trees, shitty weather and last gen sound effects. I was shocked to find out they dont even record real cars sounds. Like wtf. Though to be fair, they had to aim for a 60 fps target but they shouldve just done a 900p 60 fps mode instead of going for full 1080p 60 fps. You could do a lot with an extra 40-50% of GPU horsepower.

In short, this game was always going to be a disappointment.
 

Reindeer

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Because it literally said it was a PS5 exclusive when they showed it...
But it never looked all that visually impressive, therefore it ain't all that shocking (to me at least) that it's cross gen. PlayStation was also very dishonest and deceiving throughout this whole next gen transaction so I'm not sure hanging on to their words was a smart move.
 
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CamHostage

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Documented history of what? Remember FH2?
...Different developer, shared assets, completely different game under the hood. FH2 could do this as it's more standalone - as in the competitive element wasn't important but with GT you have the FIA etc. that will require consistency across the frame rates, simulation models, weather conditions etc. even the reflections in the wing mirrors/rearview.


I doubt they will, though. The market driver right now is cross-play to have an active community for aftermarket content. You can't do that if the PS4 version is a gimped stand-alone product. They will likely be shared core engines and generally parity across consoles.

That said, I don't personally feel that there's all this much to worry about regarding scaling the engine across past-gen and next-gen for this game. There's plenty that can be done on top to accentuate the PS5 version, and GT isn't about bleeding-edge physical simulation or open-world structure, it's about gorgeous-looking cars and finely tuned accuracy from the sounds to the handling to the sheen of the paint. You can scale graphical and aural complexity on top of a solid performance base.
 
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dano1

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Why do people think it’s impossible to make a game for a PS5 from the start and have another team cut things and make it work on on a PS4??
 
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jigglet

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I truly believe if MS had not talked about the XB1's DRM policy until post-launch it wouldn't have affected sales at all.

Bad news is not bad news if it's delivered after people have already bought your consoles.
 
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Tschumi

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I've said it before and I'll say it again, they didn't anticipate COVID and the effects it would have on console supply chains and distribution... so they've had to bring it to previous gen because there are just far many more of those consoles out in the wild.

I'm stoked about this, I've got a ps4 pro and I'll be all up in that from day 1.
 

assurdum

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Why do people think it’s impossible to make a game for a PS5 from the start and have another team cut things and make it work on on a PS4??
Because Jaguar CPU were a disgrace to scale down from higher specs. AC Unity and Just Cause 3 showed it. Even Cyberpunk I suspect is messed more from the CPU than the GPU side
 
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mckmas8808

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I truly believe if MS had not talked about the XB1's DRM policy until post-launch it wouldn't have affected sales at all.

Bad news is not bad news if it's delivered after people have already bought your consoles.

Do you remember what those DRM policies were? I'm 90% sure you forgot what they were, for you to say the bolded.
 
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Shubh_C63

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In car racing games, I don't think you're gonna notice the difference if they don't want you to notice the difference.

PS5 version will still look sufficiently brain melting. Until exclusive PS5 GT8 when PS6 hardware is finalized.
 

FritzJ92

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I just see it as PS4 is getting a gimped version because of the PS5 or PS5 is getting a gimped version because of the PS4. Unless competitive racing will only be on PS5 then it doesn't matter.
 

jigglet

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Do you remember what those DRM policies were? I'm 90% sure you forgot what they were, for you to say the bolded.

Yup. And I suppose as a pretty much multiplayer-only gamer it never really bothered me. I loved the benefits it provided.
 

Fox Mulder

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makes some sense but is disappointing, especially when Forza Motorsports is not going to be cross gen and these games can be a platform for the whole generation.

MS has a sexy new Forza Horizon 5 this year and Forza Motorsports is built as a next gen game on the more powerful console.
 

mckmas8808

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Yup. And I suppose as a pretty much multiplayer-only gamer it never really bothered me. I loved the benefits it provided.

But many of the best games are single player though. I'm sure those gamers who aren't multi-player "only" focused would still hate MS' DRM policies of 2013.
 

Klik

Junior Member
Jun 30, 2016
524
1,205
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It really sad to see we will have crossgen games even in 2022, 2 years after PS5 release.
 

Silent Viper

Member
Mar 15, 2018
2,794
4,165
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Cross gen racing games not big issue as you can scale assets very easily but games like Horizon FW and God of war will have to limit their scope and design to make it run on PS4.. GT7 is non open world sim racer, so PS5 will have more detailed cars and better looking environment details with faster loading. GT 7 cross gen is a good thing but not God of war and HFW.