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The best article I've read on NFT tech in gaming

Punished Miku

Gold Member


This was such a cathartic read. Highly recommended you read it all the way through. I love the crescendo ending when he just starts mocking them and calling them idiots.

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If NFTs ever gain a foothold in gaming, it will be because of lack of knowledge about what it is. It would be one of the greatest scams of all time. It would be convincing everyone that they can take an infinitely reproduceable resource and then artificially creating the illusion of scarcity to sell it to people for money.

Read the article so you finally know how stupid this all is, and can start opposing it. Almost all the claims of people pushing this tech as "trend setting" or the future of gaming never specify how. You literally don't own anything but a line of code in a digital ledger that says "you're special." You don't own the IP, the content, the license, or anything. You own a digital authentication code that can be rendered useless anytime the actual game creator wants to stop supporting the infinitely reproducible asset you're pretending you have a unique copy of, even though that's impossible to do digitally.
 
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Punished Miku

Gold Member
I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck an NFT even is 😂
Example: A JPEG image. Can be reproduced an infinite number of times.

An NFT is people attaching a code to it that claims that their JPEG is the only real JPEG. And all PCs agree to consider that JPEG the only real JPEG, even though it's identical to all the other infinite copies around. It's literally a code system we all "agree" to use to pretend that something is rare that isn't rare. And then people use the rarity to sell it and make money. It's one of the dumbest scams of all time, especially in terms of anything related to video games.
 

Kuranghi

Member
Example: A JPEG image. Can be reproduced an infinite number of times.

An NFT is people attaching a code to it that claims that their JPEG is the only real JPEG. And all PCs agree to consider that JPEG the only real JPEG, even though it's identical to all the other infinite copies around. It's literally a code system we all "agree" to use to pretend that something is rare that isn't rare. And then people use the rarity to sell it and make money. It's one of the dumbest scams of all time, especially in terms of anything related to video games.

So its (partly) an attempt to control digital piracy then?
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck an NFT even is 😂
Basically hash, which is represented by some graphic (most often). So you can then verify, that you own the thing. But problem of it is, since it's using SHA-256 or Keccak, that basically you change one pixel in the image and it's completely different file. You buy yourself, something which is unique on the network (like most often ETH)
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
So its (partly) an attempt to control digital piracy then?
I don't think so. You can still copy the digital assets as much as you want. As he explains in the article, for a PC to even render anything it copies it to different parts of the computer. All digital items are infinitely reproduceable.

That's why I said it's selling the lie of artificial scarcity. It's not actually making anything scarce except the code attached to it that says your JPEG is really special.

In the context of a video game asset or microtransaction, your NFT is nothing but the "you're special" code attached. You can't take your item to other games. You don't own the IP, or have access to use it any way you want. It's a stupid lie. The NFT is literally just a unique code attached to an infinite copy.
 
So its (partly) an attempt to control digital piracy then?
Yes and no. It's definitely a form of DRM, but it's mostly just an entry in a virtual 'ledger' that says that you own something, and it's not backed by any specific organization. So any enforcement or fraud prevention completely flies out the window. In order for NFTs not to be a scam, they have to be centrally tracked, so that abuse can be prevented or punished - which immediately strips them of about two thirds of their supposed usefulness.
 
I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck an NFT even is 😂
A digital file (or any digital asset), like a JPEG or GIF image, that is restricted from copying thanks to the cryptography of blockchain.

Or think of it like DRM for in-game items so that only a singular instance of a digital good can exist for no other reason than to artificially impose scarcity.
 
Yes and no. It's definitely a form of DRM, but it's mostly just an entry in a virtual 'ledger' that says that you own something, and it's not backed by any specific organization. So any enforcement or fraud prevention completely flies out the window. In order for NFTs not to be a scam, they have to be centrally tracked, so that abuse can be prevented or punished - which immediately strips them of about two thirds of their supposed usefulness.
That's not how any of this works. That's why you shouldn't read shitty, biased articles.
 
That's not how any of this works. That's why you shouldn't read shitty, biased articles.
"That's not how any of this works" is all we really hear in defense of this stuff. Can you provide a proper plain-language counterpoint on how it works, without turning it into a sales pitch? Because the "shitty biased articles" only support the conclusions I've reached myself after researching the concept, they're not the source of my view on it. The proposition of making money on games or art does not blind me to the logistical deficiencies of the idea.
 

makaveli60

Member
Example: A JPEG image. Can be reproduced an infinite number of times.

An NFT is people attaching a code to it that claims that their JPEG is the only real JPEG. And all PCs agree to consider that JPEG the only real JPEG, even though it's identical to all the other infinite copies around. It's literally a code system we all "agree" to use to pretend that something is rare that isn't rare. And then people use the rarity to sell it and make money. It's one of the dumbest scams of all time, especially in terms of anything related to video games.
And there are people falling for this bullshit? God help us, please!
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Feels like an old man yells at cloud type of article with all the swears and snarkiness. NFT is a relatively new tech and only got mainstream attention very recently, people don't have it figured out yet.

Its true we shouldn't just go all in blindly and accept it as our new lord and savior, but we shouldn't dismiss it altogether either. All the author of the article did was present some issues that may come from these types of games that only really apply for specific situations. His case is nowhere strong enough to dismiss NFTs altogether.

Its true when you have a card for a type of game, that card can't really be used anywhere else because it needs all the back end software in order to work properly, but that wouldn't change the fact that, for example, a NFT system would allow people to trade or sell cards offline without having to rely on whatever terms the game dev imposes for trades. This comes with the risks of potential scams naturally, but this is part of the figuring it out and awareness phase.

His logic also doesn't apply for purely cosmetic items in common file formats. He used an extreme case saying you couldn't use a marvel themed fortnite skin in mario 64, but this is a very disingenuous example. You could for example buy a 'NFT skin' someone made in blender that doesn't involve any third party intellectual property like spider man, and then proceed to use that skin in VR chat, then turn around and use it for gmod, because they both work with this type of file.

The part where he says ownership is just an illusion. He ironically used real physical trading cards to say those are worth something because they are actual physical objects, but what is the difference between a 'real' Yu-Gi-Oh! card and me printing the image of said card in hard paper? I even remember back in the days that was still popular around here that were many known-to-be fake cards going around that were much cheaper than the real ones, and didn't have the same sets of rarity.... and people just played with them normally. Yet, despite being almost identical to the real things, they weren't worth nearly as much.... because people just "agreed" that the one that had the "signature" saying it was real was the actual real one.
How is that any different from NFTs jpegs? Heck, whats the difference between someone who owns an original Deus Ex CD to someone who pirated a gog installer from the net, burned it into a disk and printed the original cover in it? Ownership of intellectual property products has always been an illusion born out of mutual agreements, that goes even to the precious physical games some people here are so adamant about.
 
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The part where he says ownership is just an illusion. He ironically used real physical trading cards to say those are worth something because they are actual physical objects, but what is the difference between a 'real' Yu-Gi-Oh! card and me printing the image of said card in hard paper? I even remember back in the days that was still popular around here that were many known-to-be fake cards going around that were much cheaper than the real ones, and didn't have the same sets of rarity.... and people just played with them normally. Yet, despite being almost identical to the real things, they weren't worth nearly as much.... because people just "agreed" that the one that had the "signature" saying it was real was the actual real one.
How is that any different from NFTs jpegs? Heck, whats the difference between someone who owns an original Deus Ex CD to someone who pirated a gog installer from the net, burned it into a disk and printed the original cover in it? Ownership of intellectual property products has always been an illusion born out of mutual agreements, that goes even to the precious physical games some people here are so adamant about.
The difference between "proxy" cards printed out on paper, and real official cards, IIRC, is that 'proxy' cards are not allowed in official tournaments. So the difference is much the same vis-a-vis digital online games, that only accept officially sanctioned content in competitive play, but allow whatever in custom matches (i.e. War Thunder).
 
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GymWolf

Member
Example: A JPEG image. Can be reproduced an infinite number of times.

An NFT is people attaching a code to it that claims that their JPEG is the only real JPEG. And all PCs agree to consider that JPEG the only real JPEG, even though it's identical to all the other infinite copies around. It's literally a code system we all "agree" to use to pretend that something is rare that isn't rare. And then people use the rarity to sell it and make money. It's one of the dumbest scams of all time, especially in terms of anything related to video games.
How can this be applied to videogames?

Like companies selling "unique" items to people who want to look unique?!
 
Eh. I like NFT's for my artworks.

Allows me to have a sense of actual owning my work and knowing that its backed by a line of code that is apparently impregnable.

Still, I do feel the same way when it comes to how theres this HUGE push to go into NFT's for everything and this whole meta verse bullshit.

It's being shoved down our throats a lot these days, and that's where I find annoyance in it.

Not so much for my use of NFT's.
 

Three

Member
Example: A JPEG image. Can be reproduced an infinite number of times.

An NFT is people attaching a code to it that claims that their JPEG is the only real JPEG. And all PCs agree to consider that JPEG the only real JPEG, even though it's identical to all the other infinite copies around. It's literally a code system we all "agree" to use to pretend that something is rare that isn't rare. And then people use the rarity to sell it and make money. It's one of the dumbest scams of all time, especially in terms of anything related to video games.
Why video games in particular? If anything video games would have a better use to try prevent hacking duplicates. NFTs themselves are kind of ridiculous but I mean what makes it particularly bad in videogames instead of the idea as a whole being an agreement that you own some information with code?
 
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Three

Member
How can this be applied to videogames?

Like companies selling "unique" items to people who want to look unique?!
Think of it like a deed to a house. It's like a deed to something the parties agree upon. This can be some digital armour or some unique weapon.
 
Think of it like a deed to a house. It's like a deed to something the parties agree upon. This can be some digital armour or some unique weapon.
Except it then must be either nowhere near unique, or it creates a logistical nightmare of content creation. Or the game expects to have a total playercount of maybe hundreds. Even that would probably stretch a good-sized team to their limits.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
Why video games in particular? If anything video games would have a better use to try prevent hacking duplicates. NFTs themselves are kind of ridiculous but I mean what makes it particularly bad in videogames instead of the idea as a whole being an agreement that you own some information with code?
Because you depend on the game being up to use your nft
 

Guilty_AI

Member
The difference between "proxy" cards printed out on paper, and real official cards, IIRC, is that 'proxy' cards are not allowed in official tournaments. So the difference is much the same vis-a-vis digital online games, that only accept officially sanctioned content in competitive play, but allow whatever in custom matches (i.e. War Thunder).
But whats the intrinsic difference between a fake and a real card? They are by all terms in the physical realm the same thing, but we agreed only one of them is 'real', and thus only the 'real' one can be part of an official tournament. The same can be said about official and unofficial content in games.
The only real difference between a GOG game i bought and someone downloading said game from some pirate website is that i have proof of ownership. NFT is merely a tech that allow said proof of ownership to exist in a decentrilized manner. Its far from a perfect solution, but it does allow to expand horizons if compared to traditional proof of ownership through central servers.
 
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Vae_Victis

Banned
If there is anything to be sold for real money, costs almost nothing to make and is in any way shape or form attachable to a video game, you can be sure some gaming companies will at some point try to sell it to people.

And if people spend real money to have a shitty sparkly 200x50px tag under their avatar, or to paint their in-game armor a slightly darker shade of blue, you can bet they'll buy whatever form this will end up taking in the gaming world as well.
 
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But whats the intrinsic difference between a fake and a real card? They are by all terms in the physical realm the same thing, but we agreed only one of them is 'real', and thus only the 'real' one can be part of an official tournament. The same can be said about official and unofficial content in games.
The only real difference between a GOG game i bought and someone downloading said game from some pirate website is that i have proof of ownership. NFT is merely a tech that allow said proof of ownership to exist in a decentrilized manner. Its far from a perfect solution, but it does allow to expand horizons if compared to traditional proof of ownership through central servers.
The intrinsic difference is that unless you use really good cardboard and have the exact right kind of printer, your proxies are distinguishable from proper cards. If your cards pass muster, you can go in with the copies, with no one the wiser, and no one's experience diminished by the copies.

And let me get this straight. Your "future" includes plans to make DRM better. Not better as in less intrusive, but better as in harder to get rid of.

Thanks. :|

----
And really, that's all it is, isn't it? NFT is personal(ized) DRM. If you think it'll lead to a future where you own everything and content owners can't take anything from you, well - all you own is still just a note that says you own something. You're still at the mercy of the content delivery network of the actual owner of the content that gave you a license to play something. And, wonderful idea! The NFTs can include smart contracts that will divert some percentage of the transaction back towards the actual owner of the content - as a side-effect, alerting the owner that the NFT has been traded. A fact that can then immediately be used, combined with the NFT's uniqueness, to ban that NFT's 'access code' and deny the new owner from using the content owner's CDN to download the game or other content that the NFT says they 'own'.

Majestic future, is it not?
 

Vae_Victis

Banned
How can this be applied to videogames?

Like companies selling "unique" items to people who want to look unique?!
Except it then must be either nowhere near unique, or it creates a logistical nightmare of content creation. Or the game expects to have a total playercount of maybe hundreds. Even that would probably stretch a good-sized team to their limits.

The point is not that the item is impossible to replicate in and of itself, it's just that you can authenticate which is the original one.

You don't need NFT to make a 3D armor model and say "we'll only ever sell ONE of these, whoever buys it will be the only person owning it in the game". You can do it now as much as you will be able to do it with NFT. The difference (on paper) with NFT is that when you distribute a piece of code, you can sort of "authenticate it" through a decentralized registry to that's THE ONE you gave away, and not a copy.


If it makes it easier to visualize, imagine you take a piece of physical art, like a painting or a statue, and analyze it at such a ridiculous level that no matter how perfect a copy of it somebody can make, if you analyze that with the same level of scrutiny it will still be possible to say which is the original and which is the copy. And the registry of all the data for the original is not a single central database, but shared in a sort-of peer-to-peer way, which makes it much harder for a single individual to hack and modify maliciously.

The point is not that I'm creating something that "can't be copied", people will still be able to copy it to a degree that will make no tangible difference to any human, but even if it looks and works identical for all normal intents and purposes there will still be some way to say which one was the original the creator "gave" to somebody, and which one was the copy.


For what we have seen so far in jpgs or stuff like that, it's just another exploitative consequence of FOMO and the need to feel like you "own" something digital through some arbitrary criteria. But there is a much darker side to it looming on the horizon, which is the push from big companies to tackle the infinite free repeatability of digital goods to hold a much stronger control over what people can do with them, in order to make them work more like physical items for which if you sell ten copies of, then only ten copies of it will exist in the world. I have honestly no clue to what extent this can be used for games in practice. I have no idea if this could possibly be used as a form of DRM, but I strongly suspect that's at least one of the things gaming companies hope they'll find a way to implement it as, because they seem to be always looking for the one silver bullet that will instantly nuke piracy forever.

At the end of the day, who the fuck cares who "owns" this one digital object, the only reasons to care about stuff like that are if you want childish bragging rights over it, of if you plan in some way shape of form to prevent those who "don't own it" to use it in the same way as you do. Gaming companies will likely try to leverage both to their advantage.
 

Griffon

Member
Example: A JPEG image. Can be reproduced an infinite number of times.

An NFT is people attaching a code to it that claims that their JPEG is the only real JPEG. And all PCs agree to consider that JPEG the only real JPEG, even though it's identical to all the other infinite copies around. It's literally a code system we all "agree" to use to pretend that something is rare that isn't rare. And then people use the rarity to sell it and make money. It's one of the dumbest scams of all time, especially in terms of anything related to video games.

Actually. The NFT database doesn't even contain the JPEG, it's a receipt (hash) and a link to a JPEG.

The JPEG itself is hosted on a normal website, the only thing that's kept in the NFT is your receipt.

Yes. It's incredibly stupid and useless.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
The intrinsic difference is that unless you use really good cardboard and have the exact right kind of printer, your proxies are distinguishable from proper cards.
All these distinctions do is allow people to have an easier time to prove whether a card is fake or not. Even if i made a ultra high quality fake card, if there was even so much as a single letter out of place that proved it was fake, it would lose all value, because that card i made wasn't the one we agreed was the real one and there would be a way to prove it.

And really, that's all it is, isn't it? NFT is personal(ized) DRM. If you think it'll lead to a future where you own everything and content owners can't take anything from you, well - all you own is still just a note that says you own something. You're still at the mercy of the content delivery network of the actual owner of the content that gave you a license to play something. And, wonderful idea! The NFTs can include smart contracts that will divert some percentage of the transaction back towards the actual owner of the content - as a side-effect, alerting the owner that the NFT has been traded. A fact that can then immediately be used, combined with the NFT's uniqueness, to ban that NFT's 'access code' and deny the new owner from using the content owner's CDN to download the game or other content that the NFT says they 'own'.

Majestic future, is it not?
NFT is just a receipt, its completely separated from the actual content. Whatever corporate issues you're highlighting here are already very much in place regardless of NFTs. As i said, its not a lord and savior thing that'll solve all our problems, but it can be useful.

And no, theres no smart contract or bans because thats not how the tech works, and thats kinda the point. Why do you think people dealing with illegal activities on the internet use bitcoin?
 
And no, theres no smart contract or bans because thats not how the tech works, and thats kinda the point. Why do you think people dealing with illegal activities on the internet use bitcoin?
I'm sorry, what?
https://ethereum.org/en/nft/#how-nfts-work said:
NFTs are minted through smart contracts that assign ownership and manage the transferability of the NFT's. When someone creates or mints an NFT, they execute code stored in smart contracts that conform to different standards, such as ERC-721.

...

Some NFTs will automatically pay out royalties to their creators when they're sold. This is still a developing concept but it's one of the most powerful.
...
This is completely automatic so creators can just sit back and earn royalties as their work is sold from person to person.
Literally from the Ethereum page on NFTs.

NFT is just a receipt, its completely separated from the actual content. Whatever corporate issues you're highlighting here are already very much in place regardless of NFTs. As i said, its not a lord and savior thing that'll solve all our problems, but it can be useful.
Of course it isn't, but people are touting it like it is. All it is, is a personalized marker that allows the content owner to deny access to a specific "copy" of the content, rather than a specific person that owns it. So instead of a Call of Duty-equivalent cheater being account-banned across the entire range of CoD titles, you would get, in a similar situation, a specific copy of the game getting banned (like it used to be with CD keys), and resulting in that cheater now being able to screw someone over by selling them a banned copy.
 
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kingpotato

Ask me about my Stream Deck
I think the idea of immutable ledgers would be great for some games, like MMOs. I wouldn't adopt the proof of work, and probably go for a low difficulty proof of stake design also.


Imagine legendary weapons in your fav game as being truly unique, only one copy exists in the world and the ledger is used to ensure the proof of ownership and record it's lineage as players pass it and other items around.
 

Punished Miku

Gold Member
I think the idea of immutable ledgers would be great for some games, like MMOs. I wouldn't adopt the proof of work, and probably go for a low difficulty proof of stake design also.


Imagine legendary weapons in your fav game as being truly unique, only one copy exists in the world and the ledger is used to ensure the proof of ownership and record it's lineage as players pass it and other items around.
FFXI already had relic weapons back in the day. Couldn't have been more than 500 of them out in the wild, maybe 1000. I think that devs can already limit things as much as they want in their own game world. It's kind of a redundant function. The only real application would be them getting a cut of selling it to people, instead of now where you could just sell your account to others without anyone getting a cut.
 

Lanrutcon

Member
Best thing about NFT is the silly argument people make to defend it.

Imagine legendary weapons in your fav game as being truly unique, only one copy exists in the world and the ledger is used to ensure the proof of ownership and record it's lineage as players pass it and other items around.

And imagine how many people that would piss off, how bad of a use of development time that would be and how quickly the footprint of that item would spiral out of control in the database. If you've ever played WoW, I would like you to imagine the shitstorm if it turned out only 1 person got Thunderfury or Warglaives. Jesus Christ.
 

Spukc

always chasing the next thrill
man look at those people talking on their mobile phones they look so stupid
 
man look at those people talking on their mobile phones they look so stupid
Being anti-NFT is not an anti-technology argument. It's an anti-capitalist argument. I'm personally sick and tired of the two evils of the world, politics and economics, ruining every single good thing they touch. Politics is already creeping into gaming, I don't want economics taking a seat in there as well.
 

Spukc

always chasing the next thrill
Being anti-NFT is not an anti-technology argument. It's an anti-capitalist argument. I'm personally sick and tired of the two evils of the world, politics and economics, ruining every single good thing they touch. Politics is already creeping into gaming, I don't want economics taking a seat in there as well.
go live on a mountain and herd some goats. it's 2021

if you can't keep up get out
 

Kagero

Member
How can this be applied to videogames?

Like companies selling "unique" items to people who want to look unique?!
Imagine a game where you can have randomized traits and stats in a found weapon. I suppose similar to how destiny handles their guns. They all have different rolls depending on your luck. Now imagine that this weapon you find is unique. Only one in the world and it's varified by a blockchain and can't be replicated. On top of this, because crypto is decentralized. Only you own it and it's not controlled by a governing body like Sony or Activision. You can do whatever you want with this NFT you found. You can continue to use it or you can sell it to someone and there's no middle man to cut into the profits.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
I'm sorry, what?

Literally from the Ethereum page on NFTs.
This is bound to a certain blockchain network, whoever is making the content cannot make terms of their own, at least not pertaining to the network itself. They cannot randomly block you out of a receipt for example.

Of course it isn't, but people are touting it like it is. All it is, is a personalized marker that allows the content owner to deny access to a specific "copy" of the content, rather than a specific person that owns it. So instead of a Call of Duty-equivalent cheater being account-banned across the entire range of CoD titles, you would get, in a similar situation, a specific copy of the game getting banned (like it used to be with CD keys), and resulting in that cheater now being able to screw someone over by selling them a banned copy.
The maker cannot deny access to a specific copy of the content, nor ban specific copies, as i said thats not how this works.
He can tell you "you can't do x, y, z", in a way thats not any different from selling a CD that says in the cover "don't ressell this".
He can also sell you a license instead of an actual 'product', but if he wants to ensure whatever restrictions he's imposing remain as such he'll have to do this by its own means instead of the blockchain.... exactly how it already is.

As i said, its not the solver of all problems, and you can use it in dumb ways that work exactly how things worked before. But it not an armagedom harbinger that'll enable corporation free realms over every single thing in the internet either.
 

kingpotato

Ask me about my Stream Deck
FFXI already had relic weapons back in the day. Couldn't have been more than 500 of them out in the wild, maybe 1000. I think that devs can already limit things as much as they want in their own game world. It's kind of a redundant function. The only real application would be them getting a cut of selling it to people, instead of now where you could just sell your account to others without anyone getting a cut.
This would be a different function, not just scarcity, but lineage. They don't have to follow any existing chain technology and I'm sure creative studios could find ways to bring fresh ideas into the space.


And imagine how many people that would piss off, how bad of a use of development time that would be and how quickly the footprint of that item would spiral out of control in the database. If you've ever played WoW, I would like you to imagine the shitstorm if it turned out only 1 person got Thunderfury or Warglaives. Jesus Christ.
Yes people get mad for nothing. Your posts language implies you're upset to begin with.

There are already ultra rare items in game, this would potentially bring a different angle to it. Also you could ensure the body of the transaction in the next node is tiny, like a uuid for the item and a player id, and if it were a game on servers you wouldn't need individuals to keep the whole transaction history. You don't need it to be decentralized like crypto currency. I think a lot of people conflate all the different Blockchain techs and confused themselves, like you seem to suggest.
 
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