• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

State of Next-Gen Graphics So Far...

perkelson

Member
There is no such thing as ambient lighting in the realworld. Since the games are using ambient lighting and not direct light sources, they have to compute a shadow somehow. That's where ambient occlusion comes in to give the object depth. There is no ambient occlusion being used on the individual characters. That is, there is no rays being shot out into the scene on the coat or shirt or shoes, for example, to test occlusion.

Sorry but you are just talking without understanding what is going on. Literally global ILLUMINATION in name has information for you about what it is doing. Ambient occlusion has nothing to do with how characters are lit but with darkening of space between two close objects like when you lean on wall that part of wall occluded and thus its ambient color darkens.

Characters being weirdly lit literally has nothing to do with ambient occlusion but with their global illumination not updating properly in that scene.
 

VFXVeteran

PlayStation Fanclub
Sorry but you are just talking without understanding what is going on. Literally global ILLUMINATION in name has information for you about what it is doing. Ambient occlusion has nothing to do with how characters are lit but with darkening of space between two close objects like when you lean on wall that part of wall occluded and thus its ambient color darkens.

Characters being weirdly lit literally has nothing to do with ambient occlusion but with their global illumination not updating properly in that scene.
I tried to be nice about this. I've programmed this stuff for over 20yrs. I know what I"m talking about.

When you trace a ray into the scene from an object, it should look for global illumination of bounced light from surfaces AS WELL AS what gets blocked travelling to those neighboring surfaces. Look at the grapes in that shot. They are self occluding each other to bring out the shape.



Look at this character with a helmet on his face. Notice how the lighting gets the sky color BUT ALSO gets blocked by cracks and crevices on his helmet to his face. Goggles around his nose. Goggles around it's own rim. You absolutely NEED occlusion WITH global illumination in order to get correct shadowing. Otherwise it will look flat like Cyberpunk looks.

 

kikkis

Member
I disagree on geometry output. I think its one of the bigger problems of current rendering, that UE5 hopes to rectify to some degree. Being limited to around triangle covering at least 8 pixels is quite limiting when you want display finer features and lod seamlessly.
 
Well it absolutely blows away Mortal Shell that he compares it 2.

I haven't played Mortal Shell yet, so I can't compare directly, but I have been watching a lot of footage from today's Enhanced Edition release and the game looks REALLY good on PS5 and XsX imo.

Again, I am just going off streams and highlight clips on YouTube, so not exactly ideal viewing scenario, but the textures and details seem very high quality. I would be curious to see some side by side comparisons of the NG version of Mortal Shell and Demon's Souls PS5
 
Interesting it's an inherent issue for both consoles. I'm a little surprised Sony/Xbox didn't push back for that sort of hardware to be included given the length of the last generation.
1 - Raytracing support is there, and very viable (if you keep your expectations in check)
2 - Sony and MS probably wanted proper AI acceleration, but these features have a cost, they take room on the die, generate heat, etc. and AMD does not seem to be ready for an answer to Ampere yet, anyway as far as I know so far in games Ampere was only used for better upscaling (depending on the situation, in some cases it seems to be worse than a good upscaler, even with version 2.0).. Also adding support for this feature is quite involved, so the games that support DLSS are few and far between
 

makaveli60

Member
while adding new rendering tech is nice developers should also look to get rid of certain flaws which are immersion breaking for example object/scenery/shadow pop in, if UE5 engine games eliminate or hide that well then it will be the GOD LIKE game engine this gen
THIS x 100! I feel like we’ve reached a point where generally games look awesome, but these immersion breaking things are very very detrimental. Solve these first then we can continue, IMO.
 

Elder Legend

Yoir Aee Member
All,

I've spent the better part of 6 months playing some of the best games on the PC that has come out since the next-generation of consoles started. Here are some impressions that I've gathered about some of the games I've picked that covers pretty much every single tech that's out there including on the PS5/XSX exclusives.

1) Lighting

While we've come a long way with going towards RT for the foreseeable future, I'm still having a lot of complaints about lighting in general. We still see the old light probe GI solutions in most of the games that have come out since this generation has started. It's really really annoying to see that game companies are still satisfied with light probes for representing bounced light when objects are in shadow. I love the fact that games like Control, Metro, Crysis Remake and Cyberpunk has decided to enhance the experience by using RT for GI. However, Cyberpunk is suffering greatly with ambient occlusion. I'm still seeing the same old code from Witcher 3 in Cyberpunk and it's annoying:


The characters look horrible in the shade. Their clothes and skin literally look like constant ambient light has been put on them. CDPR wasted their resources on getting the RT ambient occlusion in for larger objects but completely abandoned casting rays on the characters clothes. Even their walking on the ground shows very light occlusion ultimately making the character look like they are floating on the surface.

2) Area Lights

Contrast that with what CDPR *did* get right and that's area lights. This is probably one of the most important forms of accurate rendering lights. The realworld has lights that are oddly shaped and not just spheres or arrows. Implementing area lights in a game is considered paramount to getting good local light sources.


3) NPCs, Fallbacks of SSAO

We are just now getting to the point where we can do full on subsurface scattering in gameplay and not worry about the massive hit in framerates. The hair shading still has a ways to go but adding a couple of specular terms in the hair, adding in the best PBR shading, higher res textures and you are closer to in-game cinematics - still aways off though. The other fallback is in SSAO. While it's great for still objects, it still rears it's ugly head. In this video, you can see it misses some items on the table and it disappears when an object is front of the view camera.


4) Baked lighting is still a good solution for now

Baked lightmaps and ambient occlusion is still a good solution for now when you set the scene up properly. You won't see the dynamic lighting but it will not suffer from the above mentions in games that want to utilize dynamic TOD, dynamic lights or dynamic objects in the scene. Demon Souls looks so good because they implemented this old tried and true system. There is an Indie game called Mortal Shell that is very similar to DS in both art direction and technology. Here is some gameplay that doesn't show any of the weaknesses in lighting that I was mentioning but it does use static objects, shadows, etc..


5) Better PBR without using RT

Microsoft's Flight Simulator has got me very excited for what's to come. They have hit all the nails on the heads in terms of graphics tech and it shows. This PBR shader usage is pretty much the best I've seen and I'd imagine that games like GT7 will look like this on their cars. If we could only get this quality for in-game characters.


6) Environment Lighting + FX

Again FS2020 is top dog here. I've studied several aspects of their lighting engine and I can't find any weaknesses at all. They are literally sampling the entire sky when they shade objects on the ground. I would love to read the paper on how they did this without ray-tracing. It reminds me of Lumen in the UE5 demo. They aren't using any tricks to do this like 99% of all games out there where the clouds aren't a part of the lighting equation or MIE scattering isn't being utilized.


7) Cloud FX Rendering

This has got to be a first for finally moving away from facing ratio sprite cards. FS2020's cloud rendering uses true 3D volume textures with literally no aliasing, light attenuation, and procedural noise shaders with implicit surfaces all deforming in realtime. The only fallback I see in this technique is there isn't enough layers of 3D texture. You can tell this when flying through them. This is obviously to limit bandwidth constraints. I would love to revisit 4-5yrs from now and see if we can adjust the resolution of these 3D volumes to maybe 64-128 z-levels to see how the GPU handles it.


8) Photogrammetry

We need more of this technique. It was done first in Star Wars battlefront I believe and those textures looked stellar. I know it's a lot of prep work to implement properly and would raise costs of the budget much higher, but you really can't beat true photography.


I'm excited for what's ahead but at the same time I'm very cautious. I don't expect all games to start having these things correct out the gate this generation. MFS2020 is clearly designed with future hardware in mind and RT is a bandwidth hog. We might see only a handful of games doing a lot of these features at once. But anything is better than nothing.
NONE of these are actual true next gen titles dude. I do not care how any company paints it. If a game is being released on previous gen platform it is NOT next gen.

You should be putting games on this list such as Ratchet and Clank, Returnal and Demon's Souls. Which in their own right all look good in their own way.

If you are wanting to be absolutely blown away by the visuals then you gonna wait for the super big heavy hitters such as the next God of War (assuming its next gen only) will not count Forbidden West sorry, it's a cross gen game and I don't care how Sony paints it.

And of course Fable, Awoved, Hellblade II, Perfect Dark, Everwild and whatever else both Microsoft and Sony has planned. Please be patient, its always this slow with new gen cycles l, and its worse this time due do COVID.

I am still blown away how good God of War and TLOU 2 look on the piece of shit hardware that is PS4. Both Xbox One and PS4 are very underpowered systems,
even when they came out in 2013.

The new gen/systems are a far better leap than ps3 to ps4 imo. PS4 to PS5 and Xbox One to Series X with the SSD and more than double with GPU and quadruple in CPU is quite insane. Just gotta wait another year or 2 and you'll start seeing some jaw dropping stuff.
 
Last edited:

GymWolf

Gold Member
NONE of these are actual true next gen titles dude. I do not care how any company paints it. If a game is being released on previous gen platform it is NOT next gen.

You should be putting games on this list such as Ratchet and Clank, Returnal and Demon's Souls. Which in their own right all look good in their own way.

If you are wanting to be absolutely blown away by the visuals then you gonna wait for the super big heavy hitters such as the next God of War (assuming its next gen only) will not count Forbidden West sorry, it's a cross gen game and I don't care how Sony paints it.

And of course Fable, Awoved, Hellblade II, Perfect Dark, Everwild and whatever else both Microsoft and Sony has planned. Please be patient, its always this slow with new gen cycles l, and its worse this time due do COVID.

I am still blown away how good God of War and TLOU 2 look on the piece of shit hardware that is PS4. Both Xbox One and PS4 are very underpowered systems,
even when they came out in 2013.

The new gen/systems are a far better leap than ps3 to ps4 imo. PS4 to PS5 and Xbox One to Series X with the SSD and more than double with GPU and quadruple in CPU is quite insane. Just gotta wait another year or 2 and you'll start seeing some jaw dropping stuff.
 

VFXVeteran

PlayStation Fanclub
NONE of these are actual true next gen titles dude. I do not care how any company paints it. If a game is being released on previous gen platform it is NOT next gen.

You should be putting games on this list such as Ratchet and Clank, Returnal and Demon's Souls. Which in their own right all look good in their own way.

If you are wanting to be absolutely blown away by the visuals then you gonna wait for the super big heavy hitters such as the next God of War (assuming its next gen only) will not count Forbidden West sorry, it's a cross gen game and I don't care how Sony paints it.

And of course Fable, Awoved, Hellblade II, Perfect Dark, Everwild and whatever else both Microsoft and Sony has planned. Please be patient, its always this slow with new gen cycles l, and its worse this time due do COVID.

I am still blown away how good God of War and TLOU 2 look on the piece of shit hardware that is PS4. Both Xbox One and PS4 are very underpowered systems,
even when they came out in 2013.

The new gen/systems are a far better leap than ps3 to ps4 imo. PS4 to PS5 and Xbox One to Series X with the SSD and more than double with GPU and quadruple in CPU is quite insane. Just gotta wait another year or 2 and you'll start seeing some jaw dropping stuff.

The term next-gen for you is on a console. The PC follows it's own generation cycles. I was speaking from the PC perspective which is always ahead on the introduction of graphics features.
 

Elder Legend

Yoir Aee Member
The term next-gen for you is on a console. The PC follows it's own generation cycles. I was speaking from the PC perspective which is always ahead on the introduction of graphics features.
That doesn't matter, because the titles you have listed are also available on previous gen platforms that are very bottom of the barrel. PC's are scaleable. I can go buy PC parts that consist of the old ancient 2000's GPUs and CPUs and try to run Cyberpunk on it. What you think will happen?

Yes, PC's are on top of the game, sure that's 100% true, but the new gen consoles are the LOWEST level of the foundation that the current gen PC hardware will be going off, PS5 and Xbox Series X are the new PC low and game development is built off the lowest common denominator and right now sadly, the PS4 and Xbox One are still the lowest common denominator. Fast forward to the 2023 or so the PS5 and Xbox Series X will be the foundational standard.
 

svbarnard

Member
FS2020 in VR is the most realistic thing I have ever experienced, the combination of details, materials and the lightning really make you feel like you are there, in a plane, and like you said, all that without a slightest usage of RT
There is no Ray tracing in fs2020? Then how do they achieve such great lighting?
 

Real-HipHopGamer

Neo Member
Even though i can't post a thread as of yet on the site, i can confirm that the IN - ENGINE trailer from The Game Awards Hellblade 2 trailer graphical fidelity is coming and will be playable in real - time, in terms of those level of graphic details.

Honestly after seeing ratchet and clank rift apart latest trailer i mean it's really really gonna happen this generation.

i have the proof on my youtube channel with FACEWARE interview with Pete Busch.

Check it out and when i can i will share it on a thread when i'm able to much love ya'll
 

svbarnard

Member
A lot of people very sceptical of nvidia for dedicating hardware to tensor cores and incorporating Ray tracing when the 20xx series rolled out and it didn't help the first implementation of DLSS sucked.
It was only kind of recently DLSS 2.0 started showing what it could really achieve.
AMD got kind of blind sided in that regard.
So how's this going to affect the next generation of consoles then? Is DLSS 2.0 really such a big deal? But the Xbox series x has variable rate shading, how does that compare?
 

svbarnard

Member
Even though i can't post a thread as of yet on the site, i can confirm that the IN - ENGINE trailer from The Game Awards Hellblade 2 trailer graphical fidelity is coming and will be playable in real - time, in terms of those level of graphic details.

Honestly after seeing ratchet and clank rift apart latest trailer i mean it's really really gonna happen this generation.

i have the proof on my youtube channel with FACEWARE interview with Pete Busch.

Check it out and when i can i will share it on a thread when i'm able to much love ya'll
How do I find your YouTube channel?
 

Krizalidx11

Banned
The lighting in CP2077 with RT is already ahead of anything else on any platform and it will be for a long time

Look at this son

 

JimboJones

Member
So how's this going to affect the next generation of consoles then? Is DLSS 2.0 really such a big deal? But the Xbox series x has variable rate shading, how does that compare?
I imagine it won't affect them much but its a big value add for Nvidia users and allows them to reduce resolution but keep image quality at a higher level vs TAA up scaling and thus get more performance.

Next gen consoles will just have to make do with TAA up scaling which is OK but not nearly as good (needs higher resolutions to look good so not as big as performance uplift) but we haven't seen AMDs super resolution thing yet.

VRS seems to add very little performance uplift from any game I've read about but I guess it's nice to have and when used in conjunction with other performance saving measures it might all add up to be beneficial vs not having it.
 
Last edited:

svbarnard

Member
I imagine it won't affect them much but its a big value add for Nvidia users and allows them to reduce resolution but keep image quality at a higher level vs TAA up scaling and thus get more performance.

Next gen consoles will just have to make do with TAA up scaling which is OK but not nearly as good (needs higher resolutions to look good so not as big as performance uplift) but we haven't seen AMDs super resolution thing yet.

VRS seems to add very little performance uplift from any game I've read about but I guess it's nice to have and when used in conjunction with other performance saving measures it might all add up to be beneficial vs not having it.
Well I think we're going to need to see game engines redesigned from the ground up to really take advantage of next-gen consoles, of course with all these cross gen games it's not going to happen for a few years.
 
I've bought almost every popular AAA game released this gen (excluding yearly sports games and stuff) and I'm not feeling very good about how these consoles are shaping up. I have been most disappointed to see last gen games which have gotten native ps5 patches having to make big sacrifices or having to use DRS with very aggressive resolution scaling and very low lower bounds. A couple that have really hurt: Control Ultimate Edition- on ps5 the 30 fps Ray tracing mode is practically unplayable since not only does it feel like a bit of a sideshow but it comes with some terrible input lag apparently due to the RT. Also, it uses a mix of high, medium, and ....low settings to achieve these not very impressive RT reflections. Marvels Avengers looks great at 30 fps since it's equivalent to about PC ultra/high settings but who wants to play a game like this at 30? The performance mode has a dismally low resolution in the lower bounds of DRS with reduced settings.

Almost every native Ps5 game I own has severe sacrifices in the performance modes. Then there is this depressingly long cross gen period not helping things.
 
If last gen games receiving native, rdna 2 boosted updates on ps5 are struggling this much then that doesn't bode well for the future. Even the best looking game I own, Ratchet, it feels compromised because I can see a big difference in quality between the quality and performance mode. Thankfully that game plays smoothly at 30 so I can have my next gen experience but I'm still having to play a 30 fps game to achieve that. Demons Souls might be the only game that looks next gen at 60 fps and doesn't feel compromised since it's 1440p upscaled to 4k and they managed to retain the excellent settings in both modes.

Guardians of the Galaxy being only 1080p/60 is another fine example of this. The cross gen bs that Sony and many others are pulling just sucks but then again if God of War ragnarok was taking advantage of all the features of the ps5 then we'd no doubt be having to play that at 30 fps instead of the 60 it will hopefully be.

People like to say that "every generation starts like this" and that "people were saying the same thing about the ps4 and xbox one when they came out" to which I say...umm No? We had Killzone Shadowfall, Ryse Son of Rome, Mgs Ground Zeroes, Infamous Second Son, Driveclub, Battlefield 4, the Order 1886 all around or before 1 year into things and they all felt like huge generational leaps.

I think 3 things are potential problems with these new systems other than just this cross gen period that could be holding things back and they are: 1. Ray tracing capability being really wealthy 2. Memory bandwith limitations and 3) lack of a dlss like alternative. Might as well also throw in that we still somehow don't have 16x AF standard on these consoles which is crazy.

Why is Alan wake only 1440p when its native to ps5/x? Why is Mortal Kombat Ultimate native to ps5 but having to be using DRS? Why are so many games having to use DRS when they are cross gen and don't have to worry about ray tracing? There are a million other native ps5 patched upgrades that run similarly. Greedfall, valhalla, etc

Apologies for being a pain in the butt. I think the over inflated image I had of how powerful ps5 would be has just been shattered and I'm losing my mind a bit over it.
 
Guardians of the Galaxy being only 1080p/60 is another fine example of this. The cross gen bs that Sony and many others are pulling just sucks but then again if God of War ragnarok was taking advantage of all the features of the ps5 then we'd no doubt be having to play that at 30 fps instead of the 60 it will hopefully be.
Isn't it made on Dawn Engine which killed all PCs a while back on Deus Ex: Mankind Divided? Same thing was with Dishonored 2 and its Void Engine - I think some PCs still struggle to hit 60fps in higher resolutions in D2. The fault is more with poor optimalization, than the hardware - I think.

 
Last edited:

xPikYx

Member
If they called these consoles PS4 pro plus and Xbox One X+ it would be better because this is what they are. Crossgen bullshit does not stand out, we had crossgen games in past generations and still you could see the big difference
 
nice thread

I didn't know photogrammetry has been used so sparingly in the video game industry as of now.

This makes me even more excited for The Elder Scrolls Vl and possibly Starfield
FH5 is also using it and why people are raving on about how good it looks.
 

Azurro

Member
F Feel Like I'm On 42 I understand how you feel. I also am a bit underwhelmed about what PS5 and XSX are bringing to the table, which isn't much at the moment. The new I/O subsystem + fast SSD is pretty impressive, but so far, only some sections of Demon's Souls and parts of Ratchet & Clank have looked truly next gen. Anything else is just higher res PS4 games and comparisons between PS5 and PS4 versions are pretty boring, it's just some sliders turned up, hardly anything specific to the hardware. Even then, the horsepower is a bit puzzling, even this latest Guardians of the Galaxy game has to go down to 1080p to be able to run at 60 FPS.

I feel like I just switched a graphics card rather than a new generation of consoles. I hope they bring out a PS5 Pro because this doesn't feel like enough performance to even tell PS4 and PS5 apart.
 

Darius87

Member
This thread is dumb at it's core for drawing conclusion using broken game(cp) also all titles made with last-gen hw and pretending is somehow state of next-gen.
 

MidGenRefresh

Gold Member
This thread is dumb at it's core for drawing conclusion using broken game(cp) also all titles made with last-gen hw and pretending is somehow state of next-gen.

Cyberpunk is broken on last gen because it's a next-gen game at heart. It plays great on PC and will play just fine on PS5/XSX when the next-get patch is released.

Microsoft Flight Simulator is next-gen only.

:messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

Flabagast

Member
You can blame Digital foundry for developing obsession over resolution and framerate, that eats up massively all extra power.

It's simple maths really. PS5 is more or less 4 to 5 times more powerful than PS4 (I know RDNA2 allows further optimisation but nothing gamebreaking really)

Then a simple phenomenom occurs. Resolution is bumped from 1080 to 1440p : boom, already twice the power is needed . Then framerate goes from 30fps to 60fps : boom, twice the power is needed as well.

Without any visual change besides resolution, you already need 4 times the power of the base PS4 for gaming at 1440p@60fps. Add in some low res RT or improved visual effects on top and PS5 horsepower + RDNA2 features are already maxed with barely any difference.

The conclusion is really simple (except for morons with no education) : the only way to have truly ground breaking next gen graphics is to stop all the non sense about 4K & 60fps and accept games running at 1080p@30fps. If you want higher numbers, go get a PC. Gamers need to think with their head, even a 3090 that is nearly 4 times the power of PS5 cannot run Cyberpunk at 4k@60fps in all instances at ultra settings. They must let go high resolutions.
 

Tqaulity

Member

This to me looks next-gen as fuck but I’m a simple person I guess.
Returnal is a beast and is absolutely next gen in that it could not run on a PS4 as is. It's not just the technical aspect of the graphics, but there is so much in there they are doing with animation, fluid dynamics, physics, particles, 3D audio, and visual FX that are truly next level. They don't get nearly enough credit for the technical masterpiece that game is.

 
Last edited:
You can blame Digital foundry for developing obsession over resolution and framerate, that eats up massively all extra power.

It's simple maths really. PS5 is more or less 4 to 5 times more powerful than PS4 (I know RDNA2 allows further optimisation but nothing gamebreaking really)

Then a simple phenomenom occurs. Resolution is bumped from 1080 to 1440p : boom, already twice the power is needed . Then framerate goes from 30fps to 60fps : boom, twice the power is needed as well.

Without any visual change besides resolution, you already need 4 times the power of the base PS4 for gaming at 1440p@60fps. Add in some low res RT or improved visual effects on top and PS5 horsepower + RDNA2 features are already maxed with barely any difference.

The conclusion is really simple (except for morons with no education) : the only way to have truly ground breaking next gen graphics is to stop all the non sense about 4K & 60fps and accept games running at 1080p@30fps. If you want higher numbers, go get a PC. Gamers need to think with their head, even a 3090 that is nearly 4 times the power of PS5 cannot run Cyberpunk at 4k@60fps in all instances at ultra settings. They must let go high resolutions.
1080p/30 fps can never be next gen to me. I care too much about image quality. This is why not having a DLSS like solution is a big blow to these systems. While your math is correct, I don't believe gamers will accept those numbers.

If every game did upscaling as well as Returnal while managing to hit 60 footman I personally would be happy with "1080p" internal res.
 

tommib

Member
Returnal is a beast and is absolutely next gen in that it could not run on a PS4 as is. It's not just the technical aspect of the graphics, but there is so much in there they are doing with animation, fluid dynamics, physics, particles, 3D audio, and visual FX that are truly next level. They don't get nearly enough credit for the technical masterpiece that game is.

That’s gospel to my ears. I’m always melted by the whole thing when I boot it up and I’m surprised by the general apathy GAF has for its graphics. It’s a technical marvel running at 60 fps with an unbelievable fast protagonist that can traverse those biomes as fast as sonic and the game never shows any hiccups. Add to that the procedural generation of massive 3D worlds and the constant particle orgy and honestly it’s the most impressive thing I’ve played yet.
 

tommib

Member
Returnal looks great indeed. Internal resolution of just 1080p yet it looks much cleaner than many games using DRS.
I would even say no one was bringing the 1080p internal resolution until DF’s breakdown. Never in my life I would’ve thought that was the game’s internal res.
 

Sosokrates

Founder of western console warring.
While the effects and physics are clearly a step up in returnal, environmental geometric density, lighting, player character model quantity are either no better or marginally improved over last gen.
I think the ray traced global illumination on metro exodus is more "next gen" because it effects everything in the game world.
Returnal will look significantly less visually sophisticated in a few years imo.
Afterall it is an early adapted UE4 game made by a small team.

We have to remember that when games start to utilise the ssd/io setups, VRS and mesh/primitive shaders the games will get a significant visual boost.
RAW power is only one part of the equation. New and more efficient hardware features is a big part of what makes games look "next gen".

Its why games look better then remasters. The ps4 is maxed out playing a slightly enhanced bioshock infinite at 1080p 60fps but games like DOOM look vastly better because of the new hardware features of the PS4.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom