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(SONY/MICROSOFT Hardware & Services) We WILL Get Mid-Gen Refreshes, But Not What You Might Think...

What type of mid-gen refreshes do you think we'll get this time (select all that apply)?

  • Pro-level models

    Votes: 137 46.8%
  • Slim models

    Votes: 166 56.7%
  • Service-orientated expansions and launches

    Votes: 30 10.2%
  • Nothing; same PS5/XSS/XSX hardware all gen

    Votes: 37 12.6%

  • Total voters
    293
  • Poll closed .

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Sam Lowry (Jonathan Pryce) is a harried technocrat in a futuristic society that is needlessly convoluted and inefficient. He dreams of a life where he can fly away from technology and overpowering bureaucracy, and spend eternity with the woman of his dreams. While trying to rectify the wrongful arrest of one Harry Buttle (Brian Miller), Lowry meets the woman he is always chasing in his dreams, Jill Layton (Kim Greist). Meanwhile, the bureaucracy has fingered him responsible for a rash of terrorist bombings, and Sam and Jill's lives are put in danger.

Lol it looks batshit crazy but interesting too 👍
 

hlm666

Member
No one is going to increase die cost by using IC and then use more expensive gddr7 memory and make it run at gddr6 speeds to save power use. Why would you not just use the extra bandwidth of gddr7 instead of dicking around with a much too small amount of IC to be much use above 1080p?
 

arvfab

Member
Voted none. I prefer a generational jump, even if it means a shorter gen.

EDIT: realized the question for the poll is what we expect, not what we want. So changed my vote to slim and pro models.
 

Sega Orphan

Banned
What power increase would you need to vindicate a mid gen pro model? I will use Sony here as I think their situation is more easy to guess. Similarly to the pro over base PS4 Sony will most likely go for the butterfly GPU design of two sets of 36CU giving them 72CUs, possibly with a slight speed bump and keeping the variable frequency. That would be around 22tflops, and a slight increase in CPU clocks to around 4.0ghz. A 2TB SSD of the same speed, with the same amount of RAM but at a higher bandwidth and an extra two gig of side RAM for the OS.
The question is will the tech be ready for that in a couple of years time?
 

VN1X

Gold Member
 

ZywyPL

Gold Member
No offence thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best but you make those pages long threads every few months with you speculations/wet dreams while were just first year into the gen... Slim models are inevitably coming, they're cheaper to make so Sony&MS have all the interest to make them as soon as possible, Pro models on the other hand, not so sure, unless 8K TV won't start gaining traction there will be little reasons to make them, other than better performance compared to base models.
 

sn0man

Member
I do wonder if Sony is looking at yields and node sizes in light of the chip shortage and considering a slim as a higher priority than a pro.

My thinking is that they could crank availability if they kept the die size the same but shrank the node.
 
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yurinka

Member
They could def do this and it'd be the more practical option perhaps, but with Sony already making a slight profit from PS5 Disc units at MSRP, and them saying they were looking at Nintendo's OLED strategy (potentially for profit margins and sales volumes), if they can bring out their own handheld with healthy profit margins and solid performance...why not just do that?

It'd also allow them to control distribution better and ensure performance for software is at a minimum threshold of quality, not to mention allows for way better quality control management.
To run console games natively on mobile they should be PS1/PSP/PS2 via emulators, or to run PS4/PS5 games without porting required on a mobile hardware that should be 1:1 PS4/PS5 hardware and as of now doesn't exit.

They won't make a device that needs dedicated games and development teams. Remember they also have to support PS5 and PSVR2, and that will also release games for PC and mobile.

The only more or less option I see here would be to make their own PC handheld/hybrid or embrace Steamdeck or a similar one. It would run PC games, not PS4, PS5 or dedicated games. I'm pretty sure that once Steamdeck starts to get a good install base we'll see many other companies releasing their own PC handheld/hybrid, not only the existing Aya and similar. I'm thinking about companies like Razer, Asus, Samsung and similar. Plus I'm also pretty sure that Apple will do the same but in their case using iOS instead of Windows or SteamOs.

It's probably a toss-up between just bare slim models and MAYBE slim models with RDNA 3 (or 4) hardware features built-in at this point. Each have their obvious benefits IMO, the former would be easier to implement though, especially with a move to a smaller node process (5nm should be more than freed up by 2023/2024 possibly if smartphone makers are shifting to 3nm...if 3nm is available on time, anyway).
They won't use RDNA3 or 4 for a mid gen refresh. It would be too expensive, too different and in a context where pretty likely they will still be handling chips shortage issues, for consoles I think RDNA 3 or 4 would make sense for the next gen(PS6, I think MS won't make another console but instead will continue moving their focus from being a console platform holder to a full multiplatform -including rival consoles- 3rd party publisher), not for a mid gen refresh. I think smartphone companies will slow don the release of new models because of the chips shortages.

Plus a new handheld would definitely help Sony out in Japan and other parts of the Asian market (and add another piece of hardware they can potentially sell for at a modest profit either shortly after launch or Day 1).
Japan is a small portion of the global gaming market for consoles, they won't remove hardware, marketing, 3rd party moneyhatting and gamedev resources of PS5, PSVR2, PC and mobile to make a handheld that would require dedicated games. Doesn't make sense.

If something, they will release more mobile games, which is by far the biggest gaming market on Japan. Or to push harder mobile related services like cloud gaming, remote play and so on. But not only because of Japan, but because they are also big (bigger than console or PC) in the rest of the world.

What they need to sell in Japan, like in the rest of the world, is to get more chips to be able to produce an ship more PS4s and PS5s (and in the near future PSVR2). An issue that doesn't depend on them. This issue would be even worse with an additional device.
 
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Kerotan

Member
2024 would be one year longer than it took ps4 pro to come out.

I don’t think there will be that much of a rush to get a slim out in 2023 because with chip shortages a shrink to a smaller node could cost a lot more, with so many competitors putting in chip orders.
Yeah probably. On the pro I think the chip shortage and diminishing returns will make them want a longer gen and a longer gap until the PS5 Pro so that it can be a reasonably big jump in power. Then they'll leave another long gap so the ps6 can be the big jump it needs to be.
 

kyussman

Member
I'm pretty sure I'm just gonna wait for the mid gen consoles at this point.....with not being able to easily get a next gen machine and looking like it's not getting any easier any time soon it's makes sense for me.....also,I liked the look of the PS5 at first but I've gone off it over time so I would prefer a sleeker new model.
 

b0uncyfr0

Member
We will definitely get stronger mid gen refreshes - its inevitable.

RayTracing on AMD's side is unfortunately not good on the current console's - serious concessions are made if you want RT
These newer generations should be much better.
 

Allandor

Member
Currently I really don't see why there should be a "pro" console. The consoles are already really large and there is not real "benefit" for a pro-console.
- 4k?
That was already the argument for the last mid-gen refresh and the new consoles.

-RT
... not really an argument and much to specific.

- Running games in higher fidelity?
Could be something, but it can be really expensive to "just" double the power of the console. And with doubling you won't see much (diminishing returns).

I really only see the "slim" editions on the horizon. Less power-hungry, easier to cool and generally much smaller (the PS5 is just to big).
 

Filben

Member
The demand of chips can't be supplied and you are dreaming of a new version? C'mon people
Same goes for GPUs, yet Nvidia is """releasing""" new models left and right. (3080 Ti, 3070 Ti, 3050, 3060; all in 2021 while demand cannot be supplied since 2020... you can't get a 3070 for a good price and they still thought it's okay to release an even more expensive version).

Just because demand can't be supplied it won't stop them to manufacture additional models (that cannot supply the demand).
 

odhiex

Member
There will be pro consoles (mid-gen upgrade) just like the last one, I think.

I think that today's "Quality (Resolution) mode" in so many games that limited to 30fps, could means that the pro models could run them at the higher framerate without the need for patches next time around. That's my hope. We could also expect better performances for PSVR2 games.

2024-25 is my prediction, I am leaning towards the latter.
 
The only way Sony and MS would think about mid-gen refreshes would be if the 8K TV market takes off.

PS4 Pro and One X came out because 1080p televisions disappeared from the market and you could only buy a 4K TV

Do you really expect the same to happen again in 2/3 years with 8K?

8K has been a failure so far for TV makers

4K HDR is more than enough for the next 20 years
 

Anchovie123

Member
This gen should be short. I think Pro consoles should be skipped and PS6 & Series Z should release Nov 2026. This hardware should hopefully be capable of full real time pathtracing @ 1440p/60 with AI upscale to 4k. Mind you by this time the RTX 6000 series should be out or releasing and even its entry model will completely destroy the PS5 and Series X tenfold.

PS5 and Series X are already under powered. At best theyre 1440p60 + 1 RT feature capable machines. Matrix demo is struggling with 1440p/30.

Utilizing more RT features is key to shorter development times. This gen cant be prolonged and needs to be short. 6 years max.
 
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Amiga

Member
>PS5 Model 2:

>Mid-gen refresh and slimline version of PS5​
>13.7 TF performance​
>Remains Zen 2-based but higher-clocked (8C/16T, 3.7 GHz)​
>RDNA 4 GPU architecture with hardware-accelerated RT and dedicated​
ML cores​
>16 GB of GDDR7 as 8x 2 GB modules, 14 Gbps bandwidth, for effective​
bandwidth of 448 GB/s (same as original PS5)​


- Changing architecture mid-gen is disruptive. most certainly the same RDN2+.
- Higher CPU clock isn't disruptive. possible for a refresh, lily for a Pro model.
- a refresh needs to have the same GPU clock for compatibility. PlayStation 4/Pro/5 compatibility is hardware dependent and not software dependent. the Xbox uses a higher layer of API that makes multi-hardware compatibility easy. Sony need to map the hardware/API years in advance and commit to it.
- A pro would most likely just double the PS5 CU count and result in 20TFLOPS..
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
Umm.. you can't just add hardware RT without changing the chip. And that will question why they couldn't do that in the first place. I see nothing being added to the current hardware at all. In fact, I only see various flavors like "slim" or perhaps larger HDD sizes.
 

PeteBull

Member
As soon as crypto boom calms down/gpu prices come back to normal we will definitely get midgen upgrades, at least 2x current ps5 power so at/close to 20tflops on 3nm, price wise at least 599 usd but maybe more, hard to predict console prices in 2024/2025.
 

Wooxsvan

Member
want true pro level boxes. it's only going to get tougher to see a real difference. sell me an 800 plus dollar box
 

TheMan

Member
Well given that scarcity of certain parts is going to extend to 2024 and maybe beyond, it would make sense that they'd redesign the hardware to be as simple as possible and cut down on how many chips each console needs. I have no idea how practical it would be to do that
 

EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
I just got a PS5 (2021 summer) so mid gen refresh hasn’t even crossed my mind this isn’t the ps4 that was great but felt like it continued the PS3’s run.
 
I don't know what the basis for these speculations is, but I don't think Sony or Microsoft are ever going to launch mid-gen consoles that only have 30% higher FLOPs throughput than the original models.
Especially considering the fact that RDNA3 is expected to bring a massive increase in throughput with twice the compute shaders per WGP compared to RDNA2.


Dude... Both consoles launched in 2020, can you wait till year 4?
The PS4 Pro released 3 years after the PS4, so no. The specs for the mid-gens are probably final at this point, and the consoles should release between late 2023 and late 2024.
 
This is gonna be one long ass generation. I think 8 years is the minimum before a PS6 and it could be up to 10 years.

Between chip shortages, diminishing price reductions on hardware and heat management it's gonna be a challenge to release Pro consoles at a reasonable price and form factor. I still think we'll get them along with Slim versions, but it's gonna be in 2024 at the earliest.

And unlike some, I don't think the current consoles are enough to last a decade. Not if you want games at 1440p60 or so.

Also I expect Microsoft to do a semi-new generation iPhone style instead of a normal Pro upgrade. They'll still support the current consoles through the whole generation of course.

I agree that slim revisions aren't coming until 2024. But insofar as chip shortages are concerned, well Sony are doing something about that in co-opening up that new chip fab plant in Japan IIRC. Other companies like Intel have their own fabs and have purchased other fabs; they could potentially open up for other clients in due time.

The bigger issue is probably the wafer shortage I suppose, though I've read some conflicting reports on that as well. For MS I do still see them making an even more affordable, cheaper box targeting the Roku and Apple TV-style market more explicitly in a way the Series S probably can't, but yeah I don't think they're making a "Pro" system either that's like 2x the X's performance. Same for Sony tbh.

I don't see a slim model happening for the series x. The size and shape of the series x is directly related to its cooling configuration/function. Meanwhile, the series s is already like a slim model. A slim version for the series x would be a complete revamp of the architecture and at that point they're better off just making a pro model imo.

The PS5 on the other hand could use a slim model. To me the outer console design looks wretched.

Couldn't they just do a Slim Series X by removing the disc drive, though? That would maybe allow them to condense the physical footprint, and there are other things like switching from GDDR6 to GDDR7 that would help drive down the heat which means smaller cooling unit setup, also helping with size reduction. They could do all of this while sticking with the same design blueprint as the X IMO.

PS5 Slim is basically guaranteed looking at Sony's track record. That said, I actually don't mind PS5's design that much anymore; it was jarring at first but it's grown on me aesthetically. I think things like the location of the M.2 port for SSD expansion could be better, however.

This is just wishful thinking at best.

thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best you're totally ignoring the obvious issues with semi-conductor component scarcity. That's not going away.

As such you can be sure MS and Sony will remain on the current N7P process node for a long time yet (why on god's green earth would they move to a MORE competitive N5/6 node when they can't even get enough wafers on the existing node?).

You can be rest assured any plans for a mid-gen refresh console were canned over the past two years. They'll be lucky to be free of the component scarcity to support the growth of their current base consoles by the 7 yr of this current generation.

It's not really me ignoring the component scarcity issues, but more so being optimistic about certain other developments. Sony have plans to open up a new fab plant for example, and more smartphone manufacturers are trying to eat up 3nm (and apparently, 4nm) wafers which could free up some 6nm and 5nm space.

But let's say Sony & MS stay on 7nm anyway for those scarcity reasons, fair enough. Maybe they just split some allocations between 7nm and 6nm, since the only benefit with 6nm is cheaper costs really. That immediately gives them more units to sell, meanwhile they can take other measures for slimming the designs down and reducing power consumption like going to the more power-efficient GDDR7, integrating internal storage with more energy-efficient NAND modules, or leaning on some new packaging techniques.

Also just want to mention real quick that "mid-gen refresh" the way I've used it isn't meant to imply Pro-level systems, because in that case I do agree we will likely not get them this gen. But moreso thinking, if they keep the same Zen 2 CPU designs but switch to RDNA 3 or 4 (whichever would be the more recent) while maintaining the same TF, pixel fillrate, texture fillrate, geometry rate as the original systems but just implementing an RDNA 3/4 design with some hardware acceleration for certain new features. Certain architectural changes in the GPU alone could help with getting decent power consumption reductions while still keeping the same physical footprint for the chip, and you can get a bit of extra performance potential on top of that as well.

thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best you need to add me on discord bro. We have a bunch of mutual friends. Let's make this official. ❤️

Well, I don't have a Discord but you know where to find me 🤣
 

Andodalf

Banned
What power increase would you need to vindicate a mid gen pro model? I will use Sony here as I think their situation is more easy to guess. Similarly to the pro over base PS4 Sony will most likely go for the butterfly GPU design of two sets of 36CU giving them 72CUs, possibly with a slight speed bump and keeping the variable frequency. That would be around 22tflops, and a slight increase in CPU clocks to around 4.0ghz. A 2TB SSD of the same speed, with the same amount of RAM but at a higher bandwidth and an extra two gig of side RAM for the OS.
The question is will the tech be ready for that in a couple of years time?
That method makes 0 sense when the biggest problems with the current consoles is poor RT and ML performance compared with PC, and Bandwidth limits. The next power consoles need to be on a new arch with Gddr7
 
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