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Sony files new patent for ‘Accelerated Ray Tracing’ - speculation that it could be more performant

yurinka

Member
The patent does not talk only about an RT Unit like Intel or NV, it covers all bases of the implementation including using an RT unit for transversal and testing and using RT unit for transversal and shader for testing. An RT Unit in this regard is talking about ray transversal acceleration units in general.
Notice that the patent parts you quoted it considers the option of adapting "at least one" GPU core to act as the RTU, which could be the PS5 implementation of the patent. As always in patent they try to cover all present and potential future possible relatively somewhat similar but different implementations, not only the very spicific one they'll use first.

I assume that Cerny's plan is to implent it on PS5 adapting one or more normal GPU cores to act as RTU instead of a normal GPU core and then in PS6, PS7 and so on maybe to include proper physical RTUs dedicated hardware that wouldn't be normal GPU cores.

Another option could be that in the patent he's calling RTU to the Insersection Engine of the APU, which basically does the tasks mentioned in the patent for the RTU. But in this case it would be the method of how they currently implement RT on PS5, so it wouldn't make sense to patent it now, so I think he means what I mentioned before.
 
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assurdum

Banned
True that.

Xbox consoles are smaller, quieter, even have more features/performance (on paper as of now).

Yet nobody calls their designers genius, despite being better in every way, shape or form.

This is what marketing does to you, I guess.
And meanwhile XSX uses a GPU designed from the scratch by Cerny, I'm asking why. Practically MS take his own patent, adopt it to their hardware and for you they should be considered more genial because they improved the efficiency (unexpected, shocking lol). Don't think there is something of particular genial in such approach.
 
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FireFly

Member
if this was the case not just Ampere but also Turing would be monumentally faster in RT than rdna2 - which it is not.
the main reason why Ampere is so much faster in RT compared to rdna2 and Turing is, that it doubled the ray/triangle intersection test rate per clock.
What comparison are you using to evaluate RDNA 2's performance vs Turing?
 
And meanwhile XSX uses a GPU designed by Cerny, I'm asking why. Practically MS take his own patent, adopt it to their hardware and for you they should considered more genial because they did it more efficient (unexpected, shocking lol). Don't think there is something of particular genial in such approach.

I have read some BS on this forum but this one takes the cake.

Brainwashed to the core. Cerny could start a religion here.
 

assurdum

Banned
I have read some BS on this forum but this one takes the cake.

Brainwashed to the core. Cerny could start a religion here.
Navi tech is practically designed by Cerny, smartass. Go to watch Road to the ps5.
There was an agreement between AMD and Cerny. He designed the Navi tech in exchange he given the patent to AMD for free and AMD provided to him all the resources necessary to design it without any costs. But obviously you don't knew lol.
 
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Snake29

Banned
Not really, but I guess if you blindly follow one brand instead of them all, that's the automatic conclusion.
Funny you don't mention just how large the unit had to be to meet that goal.

The XSX is different size, but the internal volume is larger then the PS5.

True that.

Xbox consoles are smaller, quieter, even have more features/performance (on paper as of now).

Yet nobody calls their designers genius, despite being better in every way, shape or form.

This is what marketing does to you, I guess.

Because they all let the power difference go now they see that the XSX has it’s struggles. And in the meantime they cocksuck Phil Spencer all day every day, and even calling him a genius.

But hey stay salty. We all know that only 1 club is worshipping a corporate figure all day.
 
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FireFly

Member
Navi tech is designed by Cerny genius. :messenger_confused:
There was an agreement between AMD and Cerny. He designed the Navi tech than he gives the patent to AMD for free and AMD give to him all the resources necessary to design it without any costs. At least inform you.
You going to provide a source for that?
 

Boglin

Member
Never stated that wasn't the case, what I stated was what cerny created wasn't anything substantially above the competition, certainly not "genius".
The PS5 matching the competition while it has a 20% smaller APU, less memory bandwidth, and has more outdated hardware features like its RDNA1 RB units vs the XSX's RDNA2 RB+ is a tiny bit impressive, imo.
Doing more with less isn't always easy.
 

Zathalus

Member
Navi was developed by the Radeon Technologies Group overseen and led by Raja Koduri, until he left the company to oversee the design of Intel Xe. He was replaced by David Wang who finished up the development started by Raja. I'm sure Mark Cerny had input into the processor as an outside consultant but Navi was not his brainchild, nor was GCN before that.
 

assurdum

Banned
Source: Trust me bro.

(Feel free to point to the part of the Road to PS5 video where he said he personally designed Navi)
Jesus you are without shame 😂 it's a common knowledge from awhile. There a Twitter about it of Lisa Su. Now you want the precise minute in the ps5 presentation, it's the part where he talk about the TF number at the beginning, go to watch it, aren't too much comfy isn't it?. Are you really so troll?
 
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assurdum

Banned
Navi was developed by the Radeon Technologies Group overseen and led by Raja Koduri, until he left the company to oversee the design of Intel Xe. He was replaced by David Wang who finished up the development started by Raja. I'm sure Mark Cerny had input into the processor as an outside consultant but Navi was not his brainchild, nor was GCN before that.
Listen dude, Navi is practically based to the ps5 GPU tech, designed by Cerny. He said it, look Road to the ps5. I don't know the chronological history of the Navi term in the AMD GPU; I knew that Navi patent and all the copyrights own to the AMD engineers who worked on it. It's in the end their tech, because Sony make a deal with it but Navi wasn't developed from the scratch with just the AMD engineers. Though was knew to everyone from awhile.
 
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Xbox Series X is an amazing piece of hardware, no disagreeing with that, in fact I personally prefer a lot of Xbox feature such as quick resume, 1440p support etc. And I absolutely love Game Pass and Microsoft first party games.

But lets also not downplay PS5

Digital Foundry did a video back then precisely addresses PS5 design, if you don't like Mark Cerny, at least watch their video

 
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Zathalus

Member
Listen dude Navi is based to the ps5 GPU tech, designed by Cerny. Look Road to the ps5. Of course Navi patent and copyright own to the AMD engineers which work on it. It's their tech, Sony make a deal with it but they haven't developed it from the scratch.
Navi is clearly a iteration of the Vega GPU design, which was the brainchild of Raja Koduri. The Radeon Technologies Group was overseen by him until his sudden departure at the end of 2017, the Navi design phase started by him and any subsequent work, as well as the RDNA 2 design, was overseen and led by David Wang who has over 25 years of graphics and silicon engineering experience.

This isn't a particular secret, it's publicly listed information.
 

assurdum

Banned
Navi is clearly a iteration of the Vega GPU design, which was the brainchild of Raja Koduri. The Radeon Technologies Group was overseen by him until his sudden departure at the end of 2017, the Navi design phase started by him and any subsequent work, as well as the RDNA 2 design, was overseen and led by David Wang who has over 25 years of graphics and silicon engineering experience.

This isn't a particular secret, it's publicly listed information.
Have at least checked Road to the ps5? This has nothing to do to what I'm talking about. Are trying to say Navi wasn't based to the ps5 GPU but the contrary? Because it's factuality false. Yeah Navi was an iteration of Vega tech no one denied it. But Cerny took this iteration and redesigned the ps5 GPU. Than he given the ps5 patent to AMD and AMD finalized the Navi tech in their own way. Make you feel better if I worded the whole process in this way?
 
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Sosokrates

Gold Member
Navi tech is practically designed by Cerny, smartass. Go to watch Road to the ps5.
There was an agreement between AMD and Cerny. He designed the Navi tech in exchange he given the patent to AMD for free and AMD provided to him all the resources necessary to design it without any costs. But obviously you don't knew lol.
Captain America Lol GIF by mtv
 

Zathalus

Member
Have at least checked Road to the ps5? This has nothing to do to what I'm talking about. Are trying to say Navi wasn't based to the ps5 GPU but the contrary? Because it's factuality false. Yeah Navi was an iteration of Vega tech no one denied it.
The PS5 GPU is based off Navi, which was developed and designed by AMD. Sony of course did have input and customizations they wanted specifically for the PS5 but the fundamental architecture is thanks to the work Raja Koduri started.
 
What comparison are you using to evaluate RDNA 2's performance vs Turing?

you can use every decently made benchmark on the internet for that,

DLSS should be disabled for that kind of analysis obviously and it should be a game that doesn't performe abnormaly on amd.



Turing is dramatically worse in ray tracing compared to Ampere
 

assurdum

Banned
The PS5 GPU is based off Navi, which was developed and designed by AMD. Sony of course did have input and customizations they wanted specifically for the PS5 but the fundamental architecture is thanks to the work Raja Koduri started.
So wait you are trying to say AMD has designed Navi firstly than give it to Sony, Sony redesigned it than sony give to them to redesign it again? Speak clearly don't play with the word to have the point. And in any case not changes what I'm saying: the first iteration of Navi was practically designed by Cerny, it gives the tech to AMD and end of the story.. That's it. The first generation of Navi is practically a ps5 GPU. Again have you watched the part of Road of the ps5 where Cerny speak clearly about it? You haven't answered to this question.
 
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Zathalus

Member
So wait you are trying to say AMD has designed Navi firstly than give it to Sony to redesigned it than sony give to them to redesign it again? Speak clearly. Because you continue to turn around the words
Navi was designed by AMD. Sony requested a APU design for the upcoming PS5. They then took the Navi design and working with AMD developed the semi-custom design of the PS5. A lot of work they did together was likely then integrated into what we know as RDNA 2.

 

assurdum

Banned
Navi was designed by AMD. Sony requested a APU design for the upcoming PS5. They then took the Navi design and working with AMD developed the semi-custom design of the PS5. A lot of work they did together was likely then integrated into what we know as RDNA 2.

Are you saying a pc Navi AMD GPU existed before the ps5 GPU? So why AMD has waited Sony to finalize the ps5 GPU before release the pc Navi GPU? It's funny how you continue to turn around the matter because you want have the point at all costs.
 
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Zathalus

Member
Are you saying a Navi AMD GPU existed before the ps5 GPU? That's a news. It's funny how you continue to turn around the matter because you want have the point at all costs.
I'm not turning around any point. The first Navi GPU launched in early 2019.
 

Sosokrates

Gold Member
Point me out where I was wrong.
Mark cerny did not practically design navi.
In RtoPs5 he says ps5 is based on RDNA2 (designed by AMD) and the feature set is malleable, AMD may imitate Cernys choices of features but it seems they didnt because the only unique thing on ps5 silicon are the cache scrubbers which take commans from the PS5s io units coherency engines, which is more to do with the SSD performance, which is N/A on PC.
 
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assurdum

Banned
Mark cerny did not practically design navi.
In RtoPs5 he says ps5 is based on RDNA2 (designed by AMD) and the feature set is malleable, AMD may imitate Cernys choices of features but it seems they didnt because the only unique thing on ps5 silicon are the cache scrubbers which take commans from the PS5s io units coherency engines, which is more to do with the SSD performance, which is N/A on PC.
Go to watch again Road to the ps5 dude. There is a specific part where he said "we designed the ps5 GPU, we give it to AMD and we don't know if AMD has changed it, if not it means it works" or something like that.
 
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assurdum

Banned
So the PS5 GPU was finished being designed back in 2018?
Why you continue to avoid my question. Have you watched Road to the ps5 where Cerny said to have designed the GPU than give it to AMD? Why AMD wanted the Cerny patent if they were fine with what was inside to "their" Navi vision (at least hearing you)? What that means for you?
 
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Zathalus

Member
Why you continue to avoid my question. Have you watched Road to the ps5 where Cerny said to have designed the GPU than give it to AMD?
I'm not avoiding the question. Navi was finished being designed in 2018, if it was based off the PS5 design that basically means the PS5 GPU was design complete in 2018 which we know is not the case.

Also, Cerny said no such thing. Feel free to post the timestamp or transcript where he said that.
 
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assurdum

Banned
I'm not avoiding the question. Navi was finished being designed in 2018, if it was based off the PS5 design that basically means the PS5 GPU was design complete in 2018 which we know is not the case.

Also, Cerny said no such thing. Feel free to post the timestamp or transcript where he said that.
The part where he talked about the Teraflop at the beginning. He said to have made the ps5 GPU design and than given it to AMD. Why AMD needed of Cerny job if they have practically finalized Navi early with solely their hands? Feel free to make your assumption.
 
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FireFly

Member
Jesus you are without shame 😂 it's a common knowledge from awhile. There a Twitter about it of Lisa Su. Now you want the precise minute in the ps5 presentation, it's the part where he talk about the TF number at the beginning, go to watch it, aren't too much comfy isn't it?. Are you really so troll?
Common knowledge, yet type "Cerny designed navi" or "Cerny designed RDNA", into Google you get practically no relevant results, and the results you do get just point back to the Road to PS5 video.

What did Cerny say in the video?

"First we have a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA technology. What does that mean? AMD is continuously improving and revising their tech. For RDNA2 their goals were, roughly speaking, to reduce power consumption by rearchitecting the GPU to put data close to where it's needed. To optimize the GPU for performance and to add a new, more advanced, feature set. But that feature set is malleable. Which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes.

Not only does it not state that Cerny designed Navi or RDNA 2, but he specifically calls it AMD's technology. Now I think this is the part you are referring to:

"So collaboration is born.

If we bring concepts to AMD that are felt to be widely useful then they can be adopted into RDNA, and used broadly including in PC GPUs. If the ideas are sufficiently specific to what we're trying to accomplish, like the GPU cache scrubbers I was talking about, then they end up being just for us. If you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded.

In producing technology useful in both worlds. It doesn't mean that we as Sony simply incorporated the PC part into our console."


And if we look at the PC space, the 6700 XT looks pretty much like the PS5 GPU, but without some of the custom features, and with the Infinity Cache. So it looks like Cerny was correct in what he said. Navi 22 may well have come out of the collaboration with Sony. That doesn't mean Cerny or Sony designed the RDNA architecture that underlies it. Even if Sony did help develop particular features that made it into RDNA 2, that's not the same as creating an entire architecture. And it doesn't mean that Cerny personally worked on those features, or did the transistor layout himself. Architectures are created by entire teams, not one single person.


you can use every decently made benchmark on the internet for that,

DLSS should be disabled for that kind of analysis obviously and it should be a game that doesn't performe abnormaly on amd.


Turing is dramatically worse in ray tracing compared to Ampere
Sure, because rather than adding more SMs (comparing 3080 vs 2080 Ti) Nvidia increased raytracing and FP32 capabilities per SM. If they simply had used the extra transistors to scale the Turing architecture up, we would also expect a big difference in ray tracing performance. The question I think is for a given transistor budget/die size, is Ampere much more performant than Turing? And in that benchmark, you can see the 3070 and 2080 Ti pretty much tied, with the 2080 Ti having ~7% more transistors. The 6700 XT looks to be the closest AMD part in size, and is much slower in ray tracing performance than both.
 
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assurdum

Banned
Common knowledge, yet type "Cerny designed navi" or "Cerny designed RDNA", into Google you get practically no relevant results, and the results you do get just point back to the Road to PS5 video.

What did Cerny say in the video?

"First we have a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA technology. What does that mean? AMD is continuously improving and revising their tech. For RDNA2 their goals were, roughly speaking, to reduce power consumption by rearchitecting the GPU to put data close to where it's needed. To optimize the GPU for performance and to add a new, more advanced, feature set. But that feature set is malleable. Which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes.

Not only does it not state that Cerny designed Navi or RDNA 2, but he specifically calls it AMD's technology. Now I think this is the part you are referring to:

"So collaboration is born.

If we bring concepts to AMD that are felt to be widely useful then they can be adopted into RDNA, and used broadly including in PC GPUs. If the ideas are sufficiently specific to what we're trying to accomplish, like the GPU cache scrubbers I was talking about, then they end up being just for us. If you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release our console that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded.

In producing technology useful in both worlds. It doesn't mean that we as Sony simply incorporated the PC part into our console."


And if we look at the PC space, the 6700 XT looks pretty much like the PS5 GPU, but without some of the custom features, and with the Infinity Cache. So it looks like Cerny was correct in what he said. Navi 22 may well have come out of the collaboration with Sony. That doesn't mean Cerny or Sony designed the RDNA architecture that underlies it. Even if Sony did help develop particular features that made it into RDNA 2, that's not the same as creating an entire architecture. And it doesn't mean that Cerny personally worked on those features, or did the transistor layout himself. Architectures are created by entire teams, not one single person.



Sure, because rather than adding more SMs (comparing 3080 vs 2080 Ti) Nvidia increased raytracing and FP32 capabilities per SM. If they simply had used the extra transistors to scale the Turing architecture up, we would also expect a big difference in ray tracing performance. The question I think is for a given transistor budget/die size, is Ampere much more performant than Turing? And in that benchmark, you can see the 3070 and 2080 Ti pretty much tied, with the 2080 Ti having ~7% more transistors. The 6700 XT looks to be the closest AMD part in size, and is much slower in ray tracing performance than both.
I never said Cerny designed the RDNA2 tech though. I said he practically designed the GPU Navi tech leaded to the fact AMD has waited his input before release a Navi GPU. If it's not as design a GPU such job, I don't know how name it.
 
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assurdum

Banned
What is "Navi tech"? The RDNA 2 architecture? The RDNA 1 architecture? Navi 22?
PS5 and XSX are neither RDNA2 machine lol in the SOC, more hybrid. The simply thing I said if AMD was perfectly capable to release Navi with their own hands why they have waited Cerny finalize the ps5 GPU; they released a pc GPU identical to it.
 
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assurdum

Banned
If you're trying to say that Cerny was responsible for the design of the PS5 SoC I doubt you would find anyone disagreeing.
No I'm trying to say that AMD needed to wait the ps5 GPU to be finalized before release their GPU; if it's not as design the Navi gpu, what Cerny did, I don't know how I should name it.
 
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FireFly

Member
No I'm trying to say why AMD needed to wait the ps5 GPU to be finalized if Navi was already designed by them.
Nowhere in the Road to PS5 video does it say AMD was waiting on Sony to finalise its own GPU. In fact Microsoft's comments suggest the opposite; that Microsoft got more of the RDNA 2 features, because it was prepared to wait longer for AMD to finish developing them. The "Big Navi" 6800 XT GPU launched a week after the PS5, while the 6700 XT (Navi 22) which the PS5 supposedly helped create, launched 4 months later in March 2021. So if anything the timeline suggests that AMD's own RDNA 2 derivative was ready first. (If we think that Navi 22 was somehow created by Sony).

Though again, you're ignoring my question as to what this "Navi tech" is that Cerny is supposed to be responsible for.
 

assurdum

Banned
Nowhere in the Road to PS5 video does it say AMD was waiting on Sony to finalise its own GPU. In fact Microsoft's comments suggest the opposite; that Microsoft got more of the RDNA 2 features, because it was prepared to wait longer for AMD to finish developing them. The "Big Navi" 6800 XT GPU launched a week after the PS5, while the 6700 XT (Navi 22) which the PS5 supposedly helped create, launched 4 months later in March 2021. So if anything the timeline suggests that AMD's own RDNA 2 derivative was ready first. (If we think that Navi 22 was somehow created by Sony).

Though again, you're ignoring my question as to what this "Navi tech" is that Cerny is supposed to be responsible for.
So what was that collaboration with Cerny which talking about? Friend talks? I already answered to you. The first pc Navi GPU is practically a ps5 GPU. Ask to you why.
Another interesting point is the Infinite Cache which is practically the cache scrubbers concept of the ps5, refined and improved by AMD. If you don't see how fundamental was Cerny for Navi, I don't know what tell you.
 
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Snake29

Banned
But Spencer at least achieved something no-one else could.

Cerny meanwhile failed miserably at his job.

Lol go back were you came from. Sony didn’t had to fix a conpany because of a mess it was at Xbox.

Are you dumb or what? I only see some fanboys getting salty because their beloved tower can’t destroy the PS5 power, something some of you had hoped for. Save some of this energy when the next worshipping Phil thread pops up.
 
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FireFly

Member
So what was that collaboration with Cerny which talking about? Friend talks? I already answered to you. The first pc GPU is practically a ps5 GPU. Asking to you why.
Cerny/Sony worked with AMD to develop a mid range RDNA 2 GPU, which most likely was used as a basis for Navi 22. In the same way that (according to rumours) Microsoft worked with AMD to develop an APU for their Surface line (Van Gogh), that later made it into Steam Deck, and AMD could conceivably release as a laptop APU.
 

Sosokrates

Gold Member
PS5 and XSX are neither RDNA2 machine lol in the SOC, more hybrid. The simply thing I said if AMD was perfectly capable to release Navi with their own hands why they have waited Cerny finalize the ps5 GPU; they released a pc GPU identical to it.

Where are you getting AMD waited on TO Release RDNA1 or 2 until cerny finalized the PS5 GPU?
AMD could of known about cernys small GPU modifications but they were irrelevant for the PC market.
We dont even know what Concepts Cerny came up with, regarding Navi.
 

assurdum

Banned
Cerny/Sony worked with AMD to develop a mid range RDNA 2 GPU, which most likely was used as a basis for Navi 22. In the same way that (according to rumours) Microsoft worked with AMD to develop an APU for their Surface line (Van Gogh), that later made it into Steam Deck, and AMD could conceivably release as a laptop APU.
From what I knew Sony would have collaborated with AMD for the Navi tech in exchange to save costs in the ps5 development. At the time there were rumours about Navi to be exclusive on ps5 but rapidly denied.
 
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FireFly

Member
I won't call it rumours. From what we knew Sony would have collaborated with AMD in the Navi tech in exchange to save costs in the ps5 development. At the time there were rumours about Navi to be exclusive on ps5 but rapidly denied.
We know Sony collaborated with AMD. We don't know what contributions Sony made specifically.
 
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