yurinka
Member
Nope. It's a new, more optimized, coding of ray tracing implementaion to improve the RT performance making a better usage of the existing PS5 and (pretty likely future) similar hardware.
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Sony files new patent for ‘Accelerated Ray Tracing’ - speculation that it could be more performant
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
Thanks for that appreciate the effort. I didn't think amd had zero bvh acceleration just some things I read said nvidia could do some stuff in the RT hardware that amd had to do off the RT units. Are there any games you've seen where AMD has managed to get above that 25% utilisation because good lord that seems to be alot of performance thrown away.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Why patent software?
ToTTenTranz
Banned
Protection from patent trolls.
yurinka
Member
For the same reason you patent hardware and everything else.
DemonCleaner
Member
don't overestimate how this looks in a conventional fully rasterized game and / or on nivida... the conceptional problems are the same anywhere.
real GPU utilization (not the figure RTSS gives you but actual frame analysis) is often not higher than maybe 50% even in the better cases/games (there are big momentarily differences depending on where you are in the pipeline)... that's simply a product of logic interdependencies and that you can't put infinite information in low level memory
if we could have infinetly large lowest level caches (which is obviously not possible) you could do crazy stuff with GPUs
Q2 seemed to have some relatively good RT utilization on rdna2... but that figure alone won't tell you the whole story either. kinda hard to interpret such data for people not knowing what the engine actually does in every instance.
Shmunter
Member
Must comment here. The hardware is fixed in its technology, but software is not.
It is the software that exploits the hardware to achieve meaningful results.
A solution that hits a high level of quality and performance is indeed categorically and technically superior to others that do not reach that threshold.
Indeed, part of Sony success is the R&D of solutions that are shared amongst the studios. They all exploit learnings to arguably create the best looking gfx in the industry.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Make sense, didn't consider it
rickybooby87
Member
Interfectum
Member
Rudius
Member
Regardless of how it is achieved, it is impressive to see all those huge buildings in open world Manhattan with raytracing reflections at 60fps and good resolution. I doubt many people were expecting this output from PS5.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
He da one
PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
Yeah Mark Cerny is working on this for PS5 hardware and this is also for Xbox and Nvidia, why dont you think about something before you write?
DonJuanSchlong
Banned
Lunarorbit
Member
What, you want an explanat?
PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
Yeah mmm this is mumbo yumbo for me and i dont know the fuck what you are talking about, but i trust Mark Cerny about this, he knows what he is doing....I made you a GPU profile of WD:L running on a 6700XT to show you the problem with rdna2's RT (RT pipeline in red). i think its probably not "unaccelerated ray traversal" (which makes maybe 10% of the RT frametime) but that because of shared registries and logic interdependencies RT occupancy [in this case] is only at 25% for long portions of the frame.
i think that is the general problem this patent is trying to improve on.
PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
Why would it??
alucard0712_rus
Gold Member
It's all RDNA2-based and Nvidia RTX has all the features of RDNA2. If there is something worth optimizing than why everyone is not utilized this already (AMD for example). So I wonder if this optimization PS5 exclusive or can be applied to any ray-tracing capable hardware. .
Care to think before you write?
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PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
So you are suggesting ,that Cerny who is working on this software solution for Sony especialy for the Hardware setup of PS5 and then gives this patent to MS and Nvdia to use this for the Xbox and Nvdia hardware? Care to think before you tell me to think before i write?
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onesvenus
Member
Can you share more info on this? PS5 developers are under NDA so I'd love to know where that "DXRT is far behind ... to the PS5 API uses".
I don't think we've seen anything that really shows PS5 doing things XSX can't do
alucard0712_rus
Gold Member
Why give patent?
I just wonder
1. what it is
2. is it PS5 specific?
3. why it needed a patent
and all of this because we know almost nothing about it
Lysandros
Member
Maybe he is just a very benevolent person.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Any visual boosts are welcome 
Q2 being fully path traced and getting better utilization is interesting, thanks again.
SSfox
Member
Rumours are saying BC will be locked behind Spartacus, so i'm kinda wondering?
PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
This has nothing to do with BC this is about a software solution for RT on the hardware and the (Sony exclusive) games for the PS5....
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bushwookie
Banned
And I must comment here. You're not wrong, but touch on a very interesting point.
While that "sharing of solutions" may be a part of Sony's success. It's also the single largest contributor to Sony being in the corner they currently find themselves in, as well as why they're struggling to get out of it.
That corner I refer to is the one Sony has backed itself into. Where their 1st party studios are sharing so many solutions and tools that the only thing they do well is make singleplayer cinematic story driven games. That's not a bad corner to be in if that's the type of games you like to play. It certainly is though if you prefer other types of games.
It's been abundantly obvious for some time now that Sony's studios have been sharing a bit too much, for a bit too long.
Moonjt9
Member
I’m the end, what we are with our eyes is all that matters
VFXVeteran
Banned
Well, you already know the story here. Sony is better than everything.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Where was this stated?
On the PC drivers are responsible for the BVH traversal, but on the console it would make sense for Microsoft to expose the traversal shader for developers to modify. The Metro devs don't indicate any difference between PS5 and XSX in this regard.
"What I can say for sure now is PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X currently run our code at about the same performance and resolution. As for the NV 3000-series, they are not comparable, they are in different leagues in regards to RT performance. AMD’s hybrid raytracing approach is inherently different in capability, particularly for divergent rays. On the plus side, it is more flexible, and there are myriad (probably not discovered yet) approaches to tailor it to specific needs, which is always a good thing for consoles and ultimately console gamers. At 4A Games, we already do custom traversal, ray-caching, and use direct access to BLAS leaf triangles which would not be possible on PC."
4A Games Tech Q&A - RTX 3000 Is in a 'Different League' for RT Performance, But AMD's Approach Is More Flexible
4A Games CTO Oleksandr Shyshkovtsov talks to us about next-generation consoles and GPUs, ray tracing implementations and a lot more.
wccftech.com
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You patent the method, not the software.
March Climber
Member
Insomniacs ability to maintain quality and performance with ray tracing is pretty good right now. Like others cant do it without DLSS
Would be cool if they shared their tech with playstation studios at least
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PS5 Pro, perhaps?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Tech is shared amongst PS Studios.
01011001
Banned
having super low quality rectangles reflected is not in any way impressive from a technical standpoint.
Insomniac chose the correct solution for SpiderMan, a game where you always swing and/or climb around tall reflective buildings. but their implementation is not in any way superior to say Watch Dogs from a technical standpoint, it is just that Ubisoft decided to have the focus on close range detail instead of draw distance for their reflections.
basically SpiderMan traded detail/quality inside the reflections for draw distance and watch Dogs did the exact opposite. (also Ubisoft's engine isn't the best in general when it comes to performance even without RT on)
And the reflections in Ratchet didn't need the massive draw distance so they look marginally more detailed as a result, but Doom Eternal with similarly big levels has arguably better reflections with a higher resolution as well
LordOfChaos
Member
I hope things like this and FSR make for more games that apply as many ray traced effects as they can in 60fps mode, I'd forgo the split between performance and quality modes for the return to that singular focus, 60 first, then the most rays they can get in.
Control and Cyberpunk look so grossly smeary in RT/30 mode for some reason.
Control and Cyberpunk look so grossly smeary in RT/30 mode for some reason.
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saintjules
Member
kyliethicc
Member
The patent was filed by Knack creator Mark Cerny
Andodalf
Banned
That would be like AMD making dozens of open source technologies over the past decade and making them a valuable to Nvidia!
Oh wait
I mean it fine, but it’s just a really limited reflection based RT. That doesn’t really matter for vast amounts of environments, and isn’t the kinda of RT we see on PC that demands DLSS.
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