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Sony didn’t pay for Metal Gear Solid 4 exclusivity ; Kojima did not want to make the port for Xbox 360

Varteras

Gold Member
Makes Grubbs rumors seem a bit made up if true. I mean Kojima is the boss now.
I don't think he made it up. I do think he jumped the gun on talking about it which, while he's not wrong for reporting information he gets, could very well bite him in the ass later.

A letter of intent is not a guarantee that anything will come. It is little more than an understanding that they would want to work together on a project. At most, the letter might spell out who Kojima could shop the game out to besides Microsoft and when. Also, any potential penalties if one party or the other decides to not go through with anything. But without seeing the contents of the letter, we really have no idea what agreements were made. The letter doesn't even mean that exclusivity is part of the plan. It could be but not a guarantee. It also means that no definitive publishing agreement was reached at the time and likely that there wasn't even much of a project ready to get started. It was likely still just an idea.

Grubb reporting on a letter of intent is setting himself up to look like he was full of shit. It may be true, but if it falls apart, and a letter of intent very easily can, he's not going to be able to prove that it ever existed unless he gets a copy for himself that he can verify is authentic or if the ones involved admit that something was planned. He's gambling with this. Because if it happens, Grubb will definitely be elevated among "insiders". If it doesn't happen, what is true won't matter because he won't be able to prove it himself and his reputation will take a hit.

Either way, even if a project between Microsoft and Kojima exists we're not likely to hear about it for years yet. With Death Stranding 2 looking more and more real, and not even announced yet, if his Microsoft project exists and has moved forward then it's probably still far too early to reveal it. It will probably also be muzzled by the need to focus on the bigger, more immediate game for a company already paying him an undoubtedly large sum of money for it.
 

Thabass

Member
I don't think he made it up. I do think he jumped the gun on talking about it which, while he's not wrong for reporting information he gets, could very well bite him in the ass later.

A letter of intent is not a guarantee that anything will come. It is little more than an understanding that they would want to work together on a project. At most, the letter might spell out who Kojima could shop the game out to besides Microsoft and when. Also, any potential penalties if one party or the other decides to not go through with anything. But without seeing the contents of the letter, we really have no idea what agreements were made. The letter doesn't even mean that exclusivity is part of the plan. It could be but not a guarantee. It also means that no definitive publishing agreement was reached at the time and likely that there wasn't even much of a project ready to get started. It was likely still just an idea.

Grubb reporting on a letter of intent is setting himself up to look like he was full of shit. It may be true, but if it falls apart, and a letter of intent very easily can, he's not going to be able to prove that it ever existed unless he gets a copy for himself that he can verify is authentic or if the ones involved admit that something was planned. He's gambling with this. Because if it happens, Grubb will definitely be elevated among "insiders". If it doesn't happen, what is true won't matter because he won't be able to prove it himself and his reputation will take a hit.

Either way, even if a project between Microsoft and Kojima exists we're not likely to hear about it for years yet. With Death Stranding 2 looking more and more real, and not even announced yet, if his Microsoft project exists and has moved forward then it's probably still far too early to reveal it. It will probably also be muzzled by the need to focus on the bigger, more immediate game for a company already paying him an undoubtedly large sum of money for it.
If anything, they could do an announcement during the Microsoft presser this year. Video game publishers love to announce stuff way too earlier anyway, so it wouldn't be a stretch to see them announce a partnership this year.

Makes Grubbs rumors seem a bit made up if true. I mean Kojima is the boss now.

As Varteras Varteras said, I don't think he made it up, but he'll do anything to get eyes on him regardless if it's "true" or not. Remember, he's dealing with a lot of people trying to "out scoop" him. Not that I thik he's concerned about such things. But, I do think he likes the fact that he's the one breaking the news. But, I don't think there's any bad intent with leaking the news other than just leaking the news. The only bad intent here is that he's leaking shit that he's heard, which is what any journalist would do if they got it from a reliable source.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
Mate most 99% of multiplatform games were missing 2/3rds of the insignificant masked sprite foliage on ps3
I've fixed the sentence above for you because if having higher resolution, better depth accuracy with exponent fog, and larger frustum setup, true sRGB gamma correct SDR colour accuracy and no screen tearing, and higher polygon counts - to name just some of the things that didn't get highlighted by DF - that were advantages on 99% of PS3 games after the first 12months then I don't know how to convince you.

Your premise is that 360 games were great and the PS3 were "dog shit" because the ps3 didn't have edram bandwidth to HW accelerate alpha blending to the same level - used for faking 3D geometry with 2D sprites. Can you see how odd it is to compare 3D games and then focus on an fx being the defining point of differentiation when it isn't even 3D - while all the differences that really are coherently 3D are ignored?

The big problem with that generation is that faceoffs were very poorly done - cherry picking from the first levels - and the interpretations from the results of faceoffs continue to be repeated to perpetuate that false information even today.

Do you honestly believe that the 360 could have done MGS4 with imagine parity with those fx - with all those visual features the 360 got a free pass being absent, normally - when even the PS3 version - according to pixel counters - isn't that close to full 720p?
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
that were advantages on 99% of PS3 games after the first 12months then I don't know how to convince you.
Only in the last third of the generation multiplatform games were on the same level. Bayonetta released like almost 3 years after the PS3 launch and yet it still paled in comparison to the 360 version.
It doesn't matter if the PS3 is more advanced on paper, when in practice most games run better on the competitors platform.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Only in the last third of the generation multiplatform games were on the same level. Bayonetta released like almost 3 years after the PS3 launch and yet it still paled in comparison to the 360 version.
It doesn't matter if the PS3 is more advanced on paper, when in practice most games run better on the competitors platform.
AFAIK the Japanese version of Bayonetta got fixed IIRC - but even if it didn't it was public knowledge it was a last minute port that resulted in such disparity and nothing to do with the PS3 or game developer's ability to use the hardware. Vanquish - which was superior on PS3 - is a better comparison for that developer, and for Sega, the arcade perfect port of VF5 on PS3, that was later ported to the 360 with crushed colours and screen tearing - causing physics desync and unrepeatable tear combos - which lead to VF5FS being scaled back in arena sizes and closer camera position to allow for virtually identical versions on both consoles at the end of the generation - at 720p60 without tearing - should show it wasn't just better on paper for the majority of the generation.
 
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Varteras

Gold Member
If anything, they could do an announcement during the Microsoft presser this year. Video game publishers love to announce stuff way too earlier anyway, so it wouldn't be a stretch to see them announce a partnership this year.
If the project actually moved forward since last year, which assumes the letter of intent was real, it would be possible to make that announcement but that depends on various factors. Kojima will probably want to focus on the more immediate title. Which appears to be Death Stranding 2. Sony will definitely not want Kojima to be walking around declaring an Xbox game in development, which is almost certainly a long way off if it exists, while he's in the thick of making an exclusive for them. Especially when an announcement of the game appears imminent.

Kojima Productions has almost certainly been working on this for the last 3 years. Because if not then they've been doing a whole lot of nothing for a while. Sony went out of their way to help get Kojima's studio off the ground. He's not beholden to them for it, but it's still bad form on his part if he doesn't consider their position. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Microsoft is going to have plenty to show off this year without needing to announce a Kojima game that releases 4 years from now. If they need him to make such an announcement, that's a damning indictment of Xbox's schedule. Unless it's such a small project that it's going to take no time at all to push it out.
 
Oh yeah I remember that. You had to rewatch some idiot smoking a cigarette or something. I hated that game

Even as a huge MGS fan, in hindsight MGS4 was a terrible game. There was just way too many cutscenes and one of them was almost as long as a movie. I don't know how it got so much praise and high review scores.
 

Lognor

Banned
Even as a huge MGS fan, in hindsight MGS4 was a terrible game. There was just way too many cutscenes and one of them was almost as long as a movie. I don't know how it got so much praise and high review scores.
Agreed! And the story was nonsensical! I remember initially trying to follow the story but then I eventually said fuck it and would clean up or do dishes while the cut scenes played out. And they were looooong! Terrible game!
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
AFAIK the Japanese version of Bayonetta got fixed IIRC - but even if it didn't it was public knowledge it was a last minute port that resulted in such disparity and nothing to do with the PS3 or game developers ability to use the hardware. Vanquish - which was superior on PS3 - is a better comparison for that developer, and for Sega, the arcade perfect port of VF5 on PS3, that was later ported to the 360 with crushed colours and screen tearing - causing physics desync and unrepeatable tear combos - which lead to VF5FS being scaled back in area sizes and closer camera position to allow for virtually identical versions on both consoles at the end of the generation - at 720p60 without tearing
Virtua Fighter 5 had better AA on the 360 though, alongside smoother frame rate and improved filtering. Not to mention the 360 version came with more content and online play. Most didn't regard it as a bad port. Most would even regard the 360 version as the better one.

Vanquish I'd consider a late game. As said, PS3 only got on par at the last third of the generation.
The flip happened around late 2009 early 2010. Before? Only exclusives really showed the PS3's technical superiority.
should show it wasn't just better on paper for the majority of the generation.

Out of the top of my head I remember Orange Box, Assassins Creed 1 and 2, several EA games like Skate or Need for Speed, Tony Hawk P8, Ninja Gaiden 2, GTA 4, pretty much all Bethesda games, Midnight Club, The Darkness, most games than ran on UE3, and even several late games like Dark Souls 2, Sleeping Dogs, Mafia 2, MvsC3 or Read Dead Redemption being better on 360, and that's reminiscent of most multiplatform releases. There are exceptions, but they only prove the rule. To be fair, in most cases the differences are minuscule and barely worth talking about, but still, most of the time the 360 takes the cake.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Virtua Fighter 5 had better AA on the 360 though, alongside smoother frame rate and improved filtering. Not to mention the 360 version came with more content and online play. Most didn't regard it as a bad port. Most would even regard the 360 version as the better one.
The 360 version having more content has no bearing on the fact that the PS3 version B is a perfect arcade port locked at 60fps and was released a year earlier, than the version C port on 360 that isn't even showing the same polygon counts as version B and is inferior to the PS3 port in all technical areas that matter to fighting games - namely synched gameplay and being a perfect arcade port.
.....


Out of the top of my head I remember Orange Box, Assassins Creed 1 and 2, several EA games like Skate or Need for Speed, Tony Hawk P8, Ninja Gaiden 2, GTA 4, pretty much all Bethesda games, Midnight Club, The Darkness, most games than ran on UE3, and even several late games like Dark Souls 2, Sleeping Dogs, Mafia 2, MvsC3 or Read Dead Redemption being better on 360, and that's reminiscent of most multiplatform releases. There are exceptions, but they only prove the rule.
You are just repeating the rubbish that DF (Richard) - while being in a contract with Xbox - wrote at the time. The orange box is far superior on PS3 across the full games when looking at all the technical missing features from the 360 versions that I listed earlier. But again it seems like DF opinion is the basis of your listed games, not what you experienced first hand - observed with technical critical eye - yourself with the games or demos on both. Given the number of performance firmware updates on PS3 since then, the situation will be even less favourable now, if they were retested IMO.
To be fair, in most cases the differences are minuscule and barely worth talking about, but still, most of the time the 360 takes the cake.
Do you think all the standard technical graphics features missing or cheated in 360 games I mentioned earlier are minuscule in processing cost? They aren't, and better alpha blending isn't a comparative trade either for that processing in the games where the PS3 did less alpha blending like RDR.

My early post about split-second really highlights the processing difference. A developer that favoured the 360 still did massively more with the PS3 because it was more capable - the tunnel GI light gathering probes they did in the game, that they couldn't do on the lower res screen tearing 360 version is a precursor to the light gather GI probe algorithms done in games today.
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
The orange box is far superior on PS3 across the full games when looking at all the technical missing features from the 360 versions that I listed earlier.
I thought about doing a full rebuttal of your comment, but then you said the PS3 version of The Orange Box is far superior. Are you crazy? Especially back then at release the PS3 port was shamelessly lazy and full of problems. Frame rate issues that would make Switch ports laugh, loading times reminiscent of Soldier of Fortune on the Dreamcast, slightly worse visuals than on the 360, no achievements

What's next? Skyrim PS3 is far superior too?

Please come back to reality, then you will get another answer.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
I thought about doing a full rebuttal of your comment, but then you said the PS3 version of The Orange Box is far superior. Are you crazy? ...
Did you ever look at HL2 head to head in person - beyond the low frame-rate lonely caravan part DF focused on where alpha-blending was the bottleneck ? or better yet, read the full length(GDC2006?) Post-Processing in the Orange Box pdf by Valve, before the they reissued with a 2008 paper of just (DX10) PC vs 360 - that removed all lighting comparisons between PC, PS3 and 360, showing the PS3 matching the PC exactly? I guess not.

Despite what you've been convinced of, the modifications to the source engine in Portal 2 - a downplayed faceoff, because Richard couldn't hide it was superior in every way on PS3 - are pretty small compared to the (DX10)PC and PS3 versions of the Orange Box.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
What's next? Skyrim PS3 is far superior too?
Skyrim was a mess on both at day 1, but Bethesda being a pretty rough around the edges developer the PS3 wasn't for them, and obviously the PS3 version was - and probably still is - dreadful because they had a problem with encoding all the game's data states (without bugs) in bitwise variables that they could never quite nail down in 256MB-512MB of RAM - even with the simpler symmetrical multi-core and unified ram on the 360, so had no chance on the complex PS3 architecture with split memory giving less to game data.
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
Did you ever look at HL2 head to head in person - beyond the low frame-rate lonely caravan part DF focused on where alpha-blending was the bottleneck ? or better yet, read the full length(GDC2006?) Post-Processing in the Orange Box pdf by Valve, before the they reissued with a 2008 paper of just (DX10) PC vs 360 - that removed all lighting comparisons between PC, PS3 and 360, showing the PS3 matching the PC exactly? I guess not.

Despite what you've been convinced of, the modifications to the source engine in Portal 2 - a downplayed faceoff, because Richard couldn't hide it was superior in every way on PS3 - are pretty small compared to the (DX10)PC and PS3 versions of the Orange Box.
I played and finished HL2 on the original Xbox. You know, the version that sometimes hit 30 FPS, most of the time didn't, and would go below 20 regularly.
I had the 20 GB fat PS3 at launch.

Stop making up stupid suspicions and conspiracy theories that everyone who had negative experiences is somehow a DF shill.

Instead, face the reality. The Orange Box ran noticeably worse on PS3 than on 360 and PC. I already thought your VF5 take was beyond any reason, as the 360 version clearly looks cleaner (thanks to better AA), and has more content alongside online play (which, believe it or not, was a big deal back then). Not to mention the aforementioned 'desync issues', which neither I have experienced, nor any fighting game crack I know has experienced... but The Orange Box? Seriously?
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
I played and finished HL2 on the original Xbox. You know, the version that sometimes hit 30 FPS, most of the time didn't, and would go below 20 regularly.
I had the 20 GB fat PS3 at launch.

Stop making up stupid suspicions and conspiracy theories that everyone who had negative experiences is somehow a DF shill.

Instead, face the reality. The Orange Box ran noticeably worse on PS3 than on 360 and PC. I already thought your VF5 take was beyond any reason, as the 360 version clearly looks cleaner (thanks to better AA), and has more content alongside online play (which, believe it or not, was a big deal back then). Not to mention the aforementioned 'desync issues', which neither I have experienced, nor any fighting game crack I know has experienced... but The Orange Box? Seriously?
It is fine, if you aren't technical and can't read a GDC paper, but it is hardly making things up to cite developer papers, is it?

Unrepeatable screen tearing juggles - where physics desyncs - are a thing. They were regularly commented on back in the day in the virtuafighter forum when video sequences with higher prolonged damage couldn't be repeated in the dojo as just bugs, because they hadn't realised it was the lack of vsync that was creating the relaunch situation to prolong a juggle beyond its natural maximum damage.
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
It is fine, if you aren't technical and can't read a GDC paper, but it is hardly making things up to cite developer papers, is it?
what's the point you are trying to make? that the PS3 port (that wasn't done in-house) being pretty bad magically changes because of a GDC paper?
They were regularly commented on back in the day in the virtuafighter forum when video sequences with higher prolonged damage couldn't be repeated in the dojo as just bugs, because they hadn't realised it was the lack of vsync that was creating the relaunch situation to prolong a juggle beyond its natural maximum damage.
I don't remember any of that. What I do remember though were several complaints across all major gaming forums about the PS3 port of Orange Box.
 
Konami is completely lost with the MGS IP. Sony should've already approached them to make sure that an ultimate MGS collection was on it's way even if it meant they had to buy the IP and do it themselves.
 
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KungFucius

Member
You clearly didn’t play the game and didn’t own a console at that time…
It was even tedious on PS3 with the installing of the Blu ray disc
Plus we had this bash against Xbox in the game
That was a dig at the PS1 MGS not a bash against the xbox. Kojima and Konami were stupid. They could have made a multi disk game and easily turned a profit on it. Konami should have just outsourced the work and ported it to PC. Now the game is basically lost instead of selling a few copies here and there on Steam and Xbox.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
what's the point you are trying to make? that the PS3 port (that wasn't done in-house) being pretty bad magically changes because of a GDC paper?
The GDC paper by the developers of the source engine - based on idtech - isn't an opinion piece by non-technical journalist people like Richard - showed the inferior compromises made on the 360 compared to PS3/DX10 PC like the new technique they introduced to use a piece wise sRGB gamma correction to fake a true sRGB curve like PC/PS3 had, and were previous all wrong on 360 games using linear sRGB gamma correction. The piece-wise sRGB correction still throws off all the lighting and impacts the pseudo-HDR the game uses really well on PC/PS3. The game was good on all platforms, but it is technically incorrect to say the PS3 source engine used for the orange box was inferior to the 360 version, when the opposite was true based on valve GDC presentations back in the day.
I don't remember any of that. What I do remember though were several complaints across all major gaming forums about the PS3 port of Orange Box.
Whether you remember it or not doesn't make the technical point I'm making wrong. The PS3 VF5 is a faithful and accurate reproduction of the Version B Arcade, the version C is not...it was great fun still and brilliant to have an option to go online, but tearing and physics desync means it would never be used for serious competitive play, and showed the limitations of the 360 compared to the PS3, because Sega AM2 would have made it arcade perfect if they could have IMO.
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
The game was good on all platforms, but it is technically incorrect to say the PS3 source engine used for the orange box was inferior to the 360 version, when the opposite was true based on valve GDC presentations back in the day.
What matters is the finished product and it is technically incorrect to claim the PS3 version of Orange Box to be "far superior" when in reality it suffered from several problems that weren't on PC or 360.
Whether you remember it or not doesn't make the technical point I'm making wrong.
Well, again, I never heard anyone say that the 360 version has desync issues. I've never experienced them myself and I've also never heard anyone talk about it on forums. You could have just made that up, which I really don't want to blame you for, but given that I've played a lot of Virtua Fighter myself, also at a higher level, and was also registered at the dojo, this statement really amazes me. Especially, because the majority of VFDC played on 360, since it was online and therefore made competitive gaming an easier barrier to pass.
 
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Ozrimandias

Member
It's as if some at Gaf hadn't played or experienced the hype around the game back in 2008. The fact is that Kojima seems to have created MGS4 with only Playstation in mind. The references to Sony with its Walkman, the placement of other Sony articles, references to Playstation I and II, mentions ingame of the CELL processor and the advantages that made MGS4 possible, the advantages of a Bluray (exclusive to PS3 vs. an HD-DVD ) made it simply impossible for Microsoft to port the game because of the notable and repeated references to its direct competition.
I mean, come on Snake controls the MKII with a Sixaxis
 

PaintTinJr

Member
What matters is the finished product and it is technically incorrect to claim the PS3 version of Orange Box to be "far superior" when in reality it suffered from several problems that weren't on PC or 360.
The finished product is superior, mostly because the RSX could do 10bit native floating point colour and (16bit formats) as it was intended for use in the Sony Zego also - for media content creation - and it has a 32bit depth (z)buffer like its PS2 Reality synth predecessor - unlike ATI and AMD GPUs of the time that used 8bit for stencil, and 16 or 24bit for depth (z) buffering, and this impacts frustum setup for z-fighting requiring different near and far clip plane positions, throwing out the final image, slightly in model sizes - even when scaling up a smaller viewport that is sub 720p to compensate.

Please feel free to elaborate on the bolded part if you technically can, because from what I experienced and read in the developer paper that just isn't true.

Well, again, I never heard anyone say that the 360 version has desync issues. I've never experienced them myself and I've also never heard anyone talk about it on forums. You could have just made that up....
Are you disputing that launch, with relaunch combos unrepeatable happened in the 360 version? And do you dispute the game occasionally screen tears in each fight on the 360? If you don't, then given that vsync when enabled - say on a 60GB PS3 - running PS2 emulation badly of SC2 will slow down the entire sequence to keep the physics and rendering in-sync, what do you think happens when the physics simulation isn't being blocked to stay in-sync when a screen tear happens on the 360?
What do you think typically happens with frame-pacing when a tear happens? even going by footage of launch XsX games. Does it remain constant or fluctuate while it catches up?
 
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Drew1440

Member
It's as if some at Gaf hadn't played or experienced the hype around the game back in 2008. The fact is that Kojima seems to have created MGS4 with only Playstation in mind. The references to Sony with its Walkman, the placement of other Sony articles, references to Playstation I and II, mentions ingame of the CELL processor and the advantages that made MGS4 possible, the advantages of a Bluray (exclusive to PS3 vs. an HD-DVD ) made it simply impossible for Microsoft to port the game because of the notable and repeated references to its direct competition.
I mean, come on Snake controls the MKII with a Sixaxis
Going by that logic Mgs4 should have been released for Mac also, there's quite a few Apple references with Snake having an ipod that's controls the music, instead of an MP3 Walkman?
And Otacon can be seen with an Apple Powerbook G4, again why not a Sony Vaio?
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
The finished product is superior, mostly because the RSX could do 10bit native floating point colour as it was intended for use in the Sony Zego also - for media content creation - and it has a 32bit depth (z)buffer like its PS2 Reality synth predecessor - unlike ATI and AMD GPUs of the time that used 8bit for stencil, and 16 or 24bit for depth (z) buffering, and this impacts frustum setup for z-fighting requiring different near and far clip plane positions, throwing out the final image, slightly in model sizes - even when scaling up a smaller viewport that is sub 720p to compensate.

Please feel free to elaborate on the bolded part if you technically can, because from what I experienced and read in the developer paper that just isn't true.


Are you disputing that launch, with relaunch combos unrepeatable happened in the 360 version? And do you dispute the game occasionally screen tears in each fight on the 360? If you don't, then given that vsync when enabled - say on a 60GB PS3 - running PS2 emulation badly of SC2 will slow down the entire sequence to keep the physics and rendering in-sync, what do you think happens when the physics simulation isn't being blocked to stay in-sync when a screen tear happens on the 360?
What do you think typically happens with frame-pacing when a tear happens? even going by footage of launch XsX games. Does it remain constant or fluctuate while it catches up?
You're trying to push the whole thing in a technical direction, even though that's really not necessary. Ultimately, the point is that the finished product was faulty and that even the average consumer could notice and identify these faults. It is not necessary to read the developer papers for this, because I look at it from a (critical) consumer point of view. From the consumer's point of view, it doesn't matter whether RSX has a better z(buffer) than the ATI and AMD GPUs of the time. As a consumer, you are only interested in the quality of the finished game or the finished product. And thing is, Orange Box on the PS3 had pretty bad framerate issues, very long loading times, was visually a bit weaker and came without trophies (at least at release). It's a clearly weaker version. It doesn't matter if the documentation talks about PC-like lightning and that the PS3 hardware can theoretically do more if that isn't reflected in the finished product. That being said, I'd still like to read those papers. A quick google research only gave me an audio recording though, and you were talking about a PDF..
 

PaintTinJr

Member
You're trying to push the whole thing in a technical direction, even though that's really not necessary.
Of course it is necessary and is supposedly what DF(Richard) did back in the day - strange how it doesn't hold up under scrutiny years later, eh?
If it isn't a measure of rendering accuracy by industry standards, then it is just opinion, so unless you can bring receipts of your "several problems that weren't on PC or 360", then why is your opinion superior to the technical merits I've raised?

Ultimately, the point is that the finished product was faulty and that even the average consumer could notice and identify these faults. It is not necessary to read the developer papers for this, because I look at it from a (critical) consumer point of view. From the consumer's point of view, it doesn't matter whether RSX has a better z(buffer) than the ATI and AMD GPUs of the time. As a consumer, you are only interested in the quality of the finished game or the finished product. And thing is, Orange Box on the PS3 had pretty bad framerate issues, very long loading times, was visually a bit weaker and came without trophies (at least at release). It's a clearly weaker version. It doesn't matter if the documentation talks about PC-like lightning and that the PS3 hardware can theoretically do more if that isn't reflected in the finished product. That being said, I'd still like to read those papers. A quick google research only gave me an audio recording though, and you were talking about a PDF..
It was reflected in the final product and it feels like all you are doing is repeating DF (Richard's) opinion as fact while offering nothing to substantiate or info advance your viewpoint.

This very thread is a suggestion that a developer very particularly about video and audio fidelity didn't want to downgrade MGS4 to run on the 360 hardware, is that not believable, now?
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
It was reflected in the final product and it feels like all you are doing is repeating DF (Richard's) opinion as fact while offering nothing to substantiate or info advance your viewpoint.
No, it is not necessary. And the 2006 GDC papers (which you should link btw. because otherwise, we will run in circles) prove what exactly? Again, it's not reflected in the final product. The final product was subpar. You don't need the technicalities nor documents to realize this, or do you want to claim that a normal consumer cannot recognize, for example, if the frame rate goes down?

This isn't only Richard's opinion or mine. If you wanna dig out decade-old forum posts about people describing the PS3 port as garbage, that's on you, but that definitely isn't only my opinion. Far from it. There was even a piece by Destructoid defending the PS3 version, while simultaneously saying it is the worst version to play.

then why is your opinion superior to the technical merits I've raised?
My claim was that the PS3 port of Orange Box has several problems.
If you don't believe me or the thousands of posts from over 10 years ago and instead want to talk about some technical "mumbo jumbo" that has no relevance as the final product is still beneath all the other versions, in spite of what the documents say, that is on you.

This very thread is a suggestion that a developer very particularly about video and audio fidelity didn't want to downgrade MGS4 to run on the 360 hardware, is that not believable, now?
Yeah. I didn't even comment on that, so I'm not sure why you bring that up. I believe that he didn't want to do a port. Not sure if that is really the reason though.
 

Ozrimandias

Member
Going by that logic Mgs4 should have been released for Mac also, there's quite a few Apple references with Snake having an ipod that's controls the music, instead of an MP3 Walkman?
And Otacon can be seen with an Apple Powerbook G4, again why not a Sony Vaio?
Yeah, right. Why it was not released on a Triumph Motorcycle? (Apple didn't sell game consoles, my point is the references to Sony consoles making it inviable to get released on a Microsoft console)
 

ACESHIGH

Member
I find it hard to believe that Sony didn't moneyhat or at least send some hookers to kojimas house. Revisiting the game, number of shameless blowing towards the brand is insane. It would make bryank75 blush...

Sample dialogue:

Snake: Cell processor huh?

Otacon: Yes Snake the cell processor is so powerful that it has actually solved world hunger, found the cure to AIDS and coached the Cowboys to a Superbowl win as we speak!!!

Snake: Pretty powerful huh? Guess we don't need computers any more. Japan truly is at the forefront of technology.

Otacon Yes Snake!! The PLAYSTATION 3 ™ will never be matched. Sony Vaio and Xperia phones are best in class and will monopolize the market as well!!

Snake: yeah other companies better start liquidating their phone and computer branches.
 
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SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
Otacon: Yes Snake the cell processor is so powerful that it has actually solved world hunger, found the cure to AIDS and coached the Cowboys to a Superbowl win as we speak!!!
Happy The Rock GIF


this reads like parody
 

PaintTinJr

Member
No, it is not necessary. And the 2006 GDC papers (which you should link btw. because otherwise, we will run in circles) prove what exactly? Again, it's not reflected in the final product. The final product was subpar. You don't need the technicalities nor documents to realize this, or do you want to claim that a normal consumer cannot recognize, for example, if the frame rate goes down?

This isn't only Richard's opinion or mine. If you wanna dig out decade-old forum posts about people describing the PS3 port as garbage, that's on you, but that definitely isn't only my opinion. Far from it. There was even a piece by Destructoid defending the PS3 version, while simultaneously saying it is the worst version to play.


My claim was that the PS3 port of Orange Box has several problems.
If you don't believe me or the thousands of posts from over 10 years ago and instead want to talk about some technical "mumbo jumbo" that has no relevance as the final product is still beneath all the other versions, in spite of what the documents say, that is on you.
..
I have searched for the earlier and longer version of this paper - with the PS3 images that were largely a match for DX10 images, other than some hi-res shadows IIRC from 14years ago – even dug out my printouts of papers to scan in, but sadly no dice, I’ve only got the same newer copy from 2008 as a pdf from the PC vs 360 talk in a 2010 backup – which I’ve linked from Valve

https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic.com/apps/valve/2008/GDC2008_PostProcessingInTheOrangeBox.pdf



Despite the PS3’s absence from that paper, it still shows how the 360 piecewise linear sRGB gamma correction (360 gamma) means that the colour accuracy – probably even with BC work – is still off now everything is PC gamma, because of the artist only adjusting 40 of the thousands of textures, and the problems the lack of PC gamma (only absent in the 360 Xenos and dx9 GPUs) caused post processing fx and cost the 360 shader performance – as stated in the paper’s 20th slide which I’ve also included as a picture (middle) above.

It might seem like a nothing difference, but the 2006 siggraph paper

https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic....H06_Course_HDRInValvesSourceEngine_Slides.pdf


(I’ve also linked) about the pseudo-HDR tone mapping in the source engine should show that inaccuracy with 360 gamma also negatively compromised the tone mapping too compared to PC gamma(DX10/PS3) and can’t easily be undone and corrected even for Xbox BC for the orange box – they may have fixed it but unlikely given all 360 games had to work around the piece-wise linear SRGB gamma correction compromise. And as yet, I haven’t even mentioned the lower polygon models on 360 – look at the slightly more faceted silhouette edges on 360 models, compared to PS3. Performance wise it was fine at the time on PS3 and will have only improved in the decade of firmwares since, so even if I said for performance reasons the orange box was originally better on 360, the combination of superior visuals and similar performance now means that old statement hasn’t been true for years.
 
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Lysandros

Member
I've fixed the sentence above for you because if having higher resolution, better depth accuracy with exponent fog, and larger frustum setup, true sRGB gamma correct SDR colour accuracy and no screen tearing, and higher polygon counts - to name just some of the things that didn't get highlighted by DF - that were advantages on 99% of PS3 games after the first 12months then I don't know how to convince you.

Your premise is that 360 games were great and the PS3 were "dog shit" because the ps3 didn't have edram bandwidth to HW accelerate alpha blending to the same level - used for faking 3D geometry with 2D sprites. Can you see how odd it is to compare 3D games and then focus on an fx being the defining point of differentiation when it isn't even 3D - while all the differences that really are coherently 3D are ignored?

The big problem with that generation is that faceoffs were very poorly done - cherry picking from the first levels - and the interpretations from the results of faceoffs continue to be repeated to perpetuate that false information even today.

Do you honestly believe that the 360 could have done MGS4 with imagine parity with those fx - with all those visual features the 360 got a free pass being absent, normally - when even the PS3 version - according to pixel counters - isn't that close to full 720p?
DF sure did a magnificent job at glossing over PS3 advantages that entire generation. Just like their noble efforts at minimizing PS4/Xbox differences later. Man they are so 'subtle' you know...
 

Camreezie

Member
Dumb by Konami, could have made a version with some slight changes or ported after the fact. Multiple discs happened on the 360 with a fair few bigger Japanese games. Money left on the table
 

Lognor

Banned
Dumb by Konami, could have made a version with some slight changes or ported after the fact. Multiple discs happened on the 360 with a fair few bigger Japanese games. Money left on the table
Maybe this is part of the reason kojima got fired. He made some horrible decisions and wasted a lot of money.
 
It's as if some at Gaf hadn't played or experienced the hype around the game back in 2008. The fact is that Kojima seems to have created MGS4 with only Playstation in mind. The references to Sony with its Walkman, the placement of other Sony articles, references to Playstation I and II, mentions ingame of the CELL processor and the advantages that made MGS4 possible, the advantages of a Bluray (exclusive to PS3 vs. an HD-DVD ) made it simply impossible for Microsoft to port the game because of the notable and repeated references to its direct competition.
I mean, come on Snake controls the MKII with a Sixaxis
If memory serves the PS3 was doing pretty badly, Sony was losing a lot of money. They needed a big exclusive.

Konami basically saved their ass.
 
Most were worse but dog shit is going a bit too far. Mid gen they started to even out but people will remember the shortcomings more.
But not of there first party games were ever stable 30fps, naughtydog were probs the best developer for the ps3 cause they mostly kept 30fps while sacrificing visuals but it was hidden with motion blur, killzone did this also though its quite noticeable and i dunno after having both consoles there were still way more issues on ps3 multiplatform games then on 360 all the way until gta5 came out
 
That's objectively false, especially the last 2-3 years.
Again like ive said barley any multiplatform ganes or even first party studios kept stable 30fps, screen tearing was continuous, even on gta5, worst game id say for it was far cry 3, though the 360 version also suffered it badly whwn in firefoghts far cry 3 on ps3 had it whenever you moved
 
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