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Some Speculation On PS5 Cooling/Heat and RDNA2 Sweetspot

Posted this in another thread but it got locked before I could hit the reply button lol. Anyway, I was responding to ethomaz ethomaz who brought up an interesting point regarding power-to-frequency scaling on RDNA1 and speculated possible efficiency gains in that regard with RDNA2. Their reply was the following:

Nothing changed just the interpretation of the results.

RDNA has a "sweet" clock spot where the increase in clock start to have disproportionately increase in performance... that is around 1900Mhz or so... when you go over that says 10% your increase in performance is just 3-5%.

But when you do that in lower clocks like 1500Mhz with 10% increase in clock will turn out in 9-10% increase in performance because it didn't reach the "sweet" spot for performance start to not scale at the same rate than clock.

RDNA 2 increase that "sweet" spot to another level... PS5 running at 2.2Ghz tells us that RDNA now can reach these clocks with 40CUs at good performance scale different from RDNA that couldn't.

Now, I was compelled to respond in particular to the last part, because IMHO I don't know if the gains are THAT vast. There's some other factors to consider here. Tried keeping it brief but this is essentially what I feel on the matter.

Dunno how true of a case this actually this. First off, we know RDNA2 is a dual-process initiative: 7nm DUV enhanced, and 7nm EUV. We know the consoles are on 7nm DUV enhanced. We also know there have been persistent rumors for about a year now regarding PS5 cooling, both in terms of outright rumors (not getting into that "recent" one which has a questionable source), and just inference from looking at the design itself.

RDNA1's sweetspot is between 1700 MHz to 1800 MHz for power-to-performance. While AMD's mentioned 50% PPW gains in RDNA2 over RDNA1, we don't know on which process they are specifying this, and there's a chance there's some slight embellishment to that figure, because these kind of companies (AMD, Nvidia, Intel, Sony, Microsoft etc.) do that all the time.

If I were being generous, RDNA2's sweetspot probably has an upper limit of around 2 GHz, and that's with sufficient amounts of cooling being provided (comparable to an upper-end PC GPU card most likely). We can look at the XSX and see that even with "just" 1825 MHz GPU clock, that thing has a massive heat sink and a pretty elaborate cooling setup of its own. And, again, it's the same process node as PS5's GPU.

I'd expect PS5's cooling (in terms of sheer amount) to be around that level, because even if the GPU is smaller that's being offset by the higher maximum clocks. But I would still say that for an RDNA2 DUV enhanced chip, PS5's GPU clock is most likely definitely pushing beyond the sweetspot. What we need to know now, is if the frequency-to-performance gain ratio has improved significantly from RDNA1 tech, because those required a vast amount of additional power beyond their sweetspot for marginal frequency gains.

Going by Cerny's own words, a 10% reduction in power will result in a 2% drop in GPU and CPU frequency. So that's a 5:1 ratio, essentially, of power-to-frequency. I don't know how that compares to RDNA1 tech, but I'd picture that you'd want a smaller ratio than that. That amount he refers to could be referring to a clock range beyond the RDNA2 sweetspot, as well, because I would assume with overall architectural and node efficiency gains you wouldn't need a 5:1 ratio at sweetspot ranges (or certainly anything lower than that).

Oh well; we're going to see eventually once Sony does that cooling teardown (I'm assuming with Digital Foundry and maybe a few other tech channels as well). Ultimately this isn't me speaking to anything in the article, not agreeing or disagreeing with anything there. But I just wanted to touch on the power, heating, and cooling aspects of PS5 and RDNA2, just some personal speculation.

Anyway, just wanted to see what and how others felt about this particular aspect of things.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Posted this in another thread but it got locked before I could hit the reply button lol. Anyway, I was responding to ethomaz ethomaz who brought up an interesting point regarding power-to-frequency scaling on RDNA1 and speculated possible efficiency gains in that regard with RDNA2. Their reply was the following:



Now, I was compelled to respond in particular to the last part, because IMHO I don't know if the gains are THAT vast. There's some other factors to consider here. Tried keeping it brief but this is essentially what I feel on the matter.



Anyway, just wanted to see what and how others felt about this particular aspect of things.
I don't disagree with nothing of what you wrote to be fair but it is only speculation about what can RDNA 2 bring to the table.
The fact that using RDNA overclocked to prove that PS5 clocks won't show proportional performance is something that lacks the basically context of why RDNA didn't scale in performance at higher clocks (mainly over 2Ghz)... you explained pretty well that... there is a sweet clock spot where RDNA stop to increase performance with clock (to be fair every single silicon has it... of course some lottery chips can go more or less than others but all start to increase performance proportionally to the increase in clock after some clock level).

What I believe and what we know...

- RDNA 2 has a 50% perf. per clock based in AMD internal tests (which clock, conditions, etc... only AMD knows).
- RDNA 2 can go to higher clocks than RDNA without have diminishing returns in performance (how much? Again only AMD knows).
- The fact 52CUs chip is running at 1825Mhz shows RDNA 2 can go higher clocks without issues.
- The fact 36CUs chip is reaching 2.2Ghz shows RDNA 2 can go higher clocks without issues.

What I think is... nobody increases the clock of a GPU from 2Ghz to 2.2Ghz if that 10% increase only gives you 2-3% increase in performance.... if Cerny choose that it means the performance increase is around 9-10% increase.

A little table of old clocks.

* Polaris 16nm 36CUs ran at 1545Mhz
* Vega 16nm 56CUs ran at 1471Mhz
* Vega 16nm 64CUs ran at 1546Mhz (1677Mhz in Liquid version)
* Vega 7nm 64CUs ran at 1750Mhz
* RDNA 7nm 36CUs ran at 1725Mhz
* RDNA 7nm 40CUs ran at 1905Mhz (1980Mhz in Anniversary edition)

These are all boost clocks... let's say the peak.

Is it hard to believe RDNA 2 can reach 2.2Ghz clocks?
 
Is it hard to believe RDNA 2 can reach 2.2Ghz clocks?

Absolutely not, I do think the PS5 will hit that frequency often, maybe most of the time, maybe all the time.

What remains to be seen, for me, is if the diminishing returns remain (high the clock goes, less in-game performance boost).

As far as power-to-frequency specifics, I trust ya'll with that. That's above my pay grade
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Is it hard to believe RDNA 2 can reach 2.2Ghz clocks?

Big difference between boost and sustained clocks.

If AMD goes with 2.2 on full fat big navi, it points to them having other products binned off the chip to make use of the 50 - 60% of the chips that couldn't hit those clocks. Just like they did with small navi.
 

Shin

Banned
Too much text, but I remember AMD describing RDNA1/2 as " continuous performance per watt gains".
Maybe something to do with that and how they tackled the APU design to make most use of the arch.
 
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