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Some perspective on the Next-Gen: this is how a first year ng exclusive looked like last gen

Lethal01

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I'd tend to agree about the RT hardware. I'm not at all convinced it's strong enough to justify the sacrifices to resolution and frame rate. For me it wasn't in Ratchet, which I ended up playing in the regular 60fps mode.

That's backwards for me, I see RT as a real increase in graphical fidelity and what give the WOW moment, but because gamers just focus on higher Resolution and 60fps we don't get to have a real jump.

~Also Ratchet clearly blows anything from last gen out of the water so OP is crazy regardless.
 
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Hunnybun

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That's backwards for me, I see RT as a real increase in graphical fidelity and what give the WOW moment, but because gamers just focus on higher Resolution and 60fps we don't get to have a real jump.

~Also Ratchet clearly blows anything from last gen out of the water so OP is crazy regardless.

Imo RT done right - let's say Metro Exodus as it is now - is absolutely incredible and a paradigm shift in rendering.

However, marginal implementations like reflections and shadows are generally little more than curiosities, from what I've seen. It looks good enough in Ratchet, but it's more a "oh cool, that's neat" than some kind of transformation like you get from 30 to 60fps or even to something like native 4k, which instantly clarifies the entire presentation.

I don't think these consoles have good enough hardware to do it well enough to justify the cost to other effects etc.

That's why people who talk glibly about diminishing returns seem so silly to, as if we're on a curve that's flattening at some perfectly constant rate.

Even if this gen does represent a smaller return to fidelity - and I'm not convinced of that - the next one, with fully RT ultra high geometry visuals, is going to be fucking profound.
 

Panajev2001a

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it's literally impossible to have a difference this big this gen.
the jump in terms of GPU performance and the difference when using higher detail is simply too small.

the time of big generational jumps is over
It is almost as if people said repeatedly that those promising snake oil / faster HW refreshes / iterative HW coming out more frequently was BS and that you actually need more time between consoles to truly get a sizeable gap 🤷‍♂️.
 

Panajev2001a

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Imo RT done right - let's say Metro Exodus as it is now - is absolutely incredible and a paradigm shift in rendering.

However, marginal implementations like reflections and shadows are generally little more than curiosities, from what I've seen. It looks good enough in Ratchet, but it's more a "oh cool, that's neat" than some kind of transformation like you get from 30 to 60fps or even to something like native 4k, which instantly clarifies the entire presentation.

I don't think these consoles have good enough hardware to do it well enough to justify the cost to other effects etc.

That's why people who talk glibly about diminishing returns seem so silly to, as if we're on a curve that's flattening at some perfectly constant rate.

Even if this gen does represent a smaller return to fidelity - and I'm not convinced of that - the next one, with fully RT ultra high geometry visuals, is going to be fucking profound.
For me it was transformative even in Spider-man… it is so immersion breaking right now to go back to cubemaps and screen space reflections only, especially the former. You are in a tight alleyway or a small street and the reflection on a large shop window is of the main road / large building you cannot see from there at all… 😱.
 

REDRZA MWS

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That's the point of the thread?

The hardware is not there yet, so there will be no generational leap.



This clearly show how ignorant and stubborn you are.

You didn't even take a look a the link I provided: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_(microarchitecture)

No, you wasted time to search some quote from a journalist desperately trying to prove your falsehood.

No Jaguar product comparable to the CPU of PS4 or XB1 was ever used in a netbook at the time.

In fact, the APU of both consoles had much better specs than any other Jaguar apu made for desktops.

Please educate yourself.





I do, you don't.

The thing is that it doesn't require a deep knowledge of ray tracing, but just logic.

RT Cores exist to speed up very expensive tasks.

When you enable RT it doesn't make the games slower, it's supposed to make the game feasible to have the game to look better (Technically can be used to have better and faster things like detailed shadows but it depends on the game.

it makes the game slower if your hardware RT cores are too weak to be used for whatever they are being used by the game.

So if Ratchet lowers its resolution with RT on is only proving my point, the hardware is weak for most meaningful uses of RT at decent resolutions.
You’re right, I never clicked your Wikipedia link. I sent you the info from anandtech. Wonder which is more credible? Tech site or Wikipedia?
 

TonyK

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This gen is hopefully gonna be about 60fps, higher resolutions, much more detailed assets and textures, and beautiful long draw distances making everything feel more alive.
That's not next gen, that's a PC port of a console game, as in all generations.
 

Lethal01

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by the way RT doesn't suck up performance, they exist to save it and you should know that.
This is totally wrong, RT is technique used for creating accurate lighting, it's extremely expensive so we barely used it in previous gens. Now we add in special RT hardware to make it significantly less expensive but it's still an added cost that we never had until we had hardware to help speed it up.
 
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Hobbygaming

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Returnal and Deathloop are quite ugly and worse than many PS4 titles.

Demon's Souls only runs at native 4K at 30fps and is a remake of a 2 generations old game.

Ratched is not that amazing and definitely not a great generational leap but feel free to believe that it is.
Demon Souls being a remake doesn't exclude it from being a graphical showpiece and yes Ratchet and Clank does look amazing
 

Mahavastu

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I don't see how the hardware is weak though. I mean maybe it is, but it doesn't make sense to me that the ps4 was weaker at the time, yet we had a bigger jump. Whereas now, the ps5 is stronger at the time, at launch.. so where's the upgrade?

But yeah maybe the pandemic is just an excuse
But PS3 and XBox360 did not have a mid gen upgrade. Therefore we take 4k/1440p for granted and expect 60fps.
Last gen I stayed at the base PS4, and therefore see the improvement in graphics resolution and the 60fps and therefore for me it is a major improvement over last gen.

I assume that the mid gen upgrades changed the perception of what the new gen offers. And of course, we are at the beginning of the gen, and we compare it with unbelievable games which for most developers where impossible to do on last gen.
 
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Hobbygaming

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The geometry detail is really really bad in that first Infamous screenshot. The road is just one big flat textured polygon, and those broken pieces on top of it are made of like 10 polygons. Meanwhile look at the amount of actual geometry detail for the ground in this Demon's Souls screenshot:



I can't wait until Ragnarok comes out so there can be direct capture comparisons between PS5 and PS4. It is going to be eye opening, though maybe not because I honestly question if eyesight medical problems are a widespread problem with gamers.
It feels like I'm taking crazy pills reading some of these comments. Demon Souls is probably the best looking launch title we've ever gotten, Ratchet and Clank too for the 1st year
 

skit_data

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It feels like I'm taking crazy pills reading some of these comments. Demon Souls is probably the best looking launch title we've ever gotten, Ratchet and Clank too for the 1st year
Indeed. I don’t know if its because they haven’t played the game or something or if its because its a remake. The downplaying of this game from some people is laughable, its easily the highest quality launch title I’ve experienced since I was a kid getting my Nintendo 64 with Super Mario 64.
 

tmlDan

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Returnal and Deathloop are quite ugly and worse than many PS4 titles.

Demon's Souls only runs at native 4K at 30fps and is a remake of a 2 generations old game.

Ratched is not that amazing and definitely not a great generational leap but feel free to believe that it is.
wtf did i just read.

I sometimes wish i didn't come back to forums, people are nutso.

I am a graphics whore too and would love for next gen exclusives to come quickly, but as an adult i know the cost of everything in business. Games cost a ton more to make now than before, more detailed graphics equal more man hours so having an install base higher than 10 million is a necessity. You can complain sure, but think before you bitch and cry online.
 
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SlimySnake

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wtf did i just read.

I sometimes wish i didn't come back to forums, people are nutso.

I am a graphics whore too and would love for next gen exclusives to come quickly, but as an adult i know the cost of everything in business. Games cost a ton more to make now than before, more detailed graphics equal more man hours so having an install base higher than 10 million is a necessity. You can complain sure, but think before you bitch and cry online.
Sony is making more money than ever before and ps5 has already sold 10 million units. By the time gow and gt7 come out, they would be at 20 million minimum.
 
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DeepSpace5D

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Infamous SS was a great looking game for its time. But it didn’t impress me as much as Rift Apart did from a visual standpoint 1 year into the new gen.

Demon’s Souls is what I’m playing now and it is gorgeous everywhere you look. Bluepoint created a truly stunning remake.

Both these games give me that feeling of next gen with how they look and they’re out in the first year.

Even Returnal which gets alot of flak for its lower base resolution is a real stunner in motion when the bullet hell action is flying at you, the particle effects, and the speed of everything at 60fps. It looks next gen in motion to me, but not as impressive in a stationary screenshot as DeS or Rift Apart.
 
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Hunnybun

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For me it was transformative even in Spider-man… it is so immersion breaking right now to go back to cubemaps and screen space reflections only, especially the former. You are in a tight alleyway or a small street and the reflection on a large shop window is of the main road / large building you cannot see from there at all… 😱.

I thought in Spider-Man it was a mixed bag. Flying around the city it improved the overall fidelity significantly because reflective surfaces are just so prominent. I still played the game at 60fps non RT (the patch hadn't been released yet) because the extra frames were a much more pervasive visual upgrade. But yeah it was a compromise for sure.

Otoh at street level, looking deliberately at window reflections etc, I thought the RT basically looked crap. Low res, a very simplified version of the world, and low frame rate. It didn't look like a reflection, it looked like PlayStation 2 versions of a given scene. I don't know what the point of that is. If in order to notice the accuracy I have to look close enough to see all kinds of other ugliness, that seems like a total waste of time to me.
 

Hunnybun

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Infamous SS was a great looking game for its time. But it didn’t impress me as much as Rift Apart did from a visual standpoint 1 year into the new gen.

Demon’s Souls is what I’m playing now and it is gorgeous everywhere you look. Bluepoint created a truly stunning remake.

Both these games give me that feeling of next gen with how they look and they’re out in the first year.

Even Returnal which gets alot of flak for its lower base resolution is a real stunner in motion when the bullet hell action is flying at you, the particle effects, and the speed of everything at 60fps. It looks next gen in motion to me, but not as impressive in a stationary screenshot as DeS or Rift Apart.

What does Returnal actually look like natively? Is it sharp? I know DF said the IQ suffers but you never know with them whether they're just nerding out over something or if it's actually perceptible.

Certainly watching videos on my laptop the game looks absolutely gorgeous, easily next gen calibre and totally underrated.
 
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tmlDan

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Sony is making more money than ever before and ps5 has already sold 10 million units. By the time gow and gt7 come out, they would be at 20 million minimum.
You're just making stuff up with no statistical or internal numbers to back it up.

Lets say they get 5 mill sold out to consumers and sell...maybe 3-5 mill copies max because people have diff taste.

If the game cost 300 million to make that's just breaking even. (the math goes 5 million sold at $70 is about 350M in revenue)

Crazy isn't it, and that's just using common sense.

We unfortunately don't live in a world of long term gains, when shareholders are involved its immediate growth and sales.
 
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DeepSpace5D

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What does Returnal actually look like natively? Is it sharp? I know DF said the IQ suffers but you never know with them whether they're just nerding out over something or if it's actually perceptible.

Certainly watching videos on my laptop the game looks absolutely gorgeous, easily next gen calibre and totally underrated.
Apparently the base native resolution is 1080p, and then Housemarque says they use temporal upsampling to bring it to 1440p, and then checkerboarding to bring it further to 4k.

it looks very sharp to my untrained eyes, but I think DF said they notice some type of jaggy or grainy look. Returnal is very much a game where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
 
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SlimySnake

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You're just making stuff up with no statistical or internal numbers to back it up.
Hilarious to see you say that and then make up numbers yourself.

Lets say they get 5 mill sold out to consumers and sell...maybe 3-5 mill copies max because people have diff taste.

If the game cost 300 million to make that's just breaking even. (the math goes 5 million sold at $70 is about 350M in revenue)

My numbers are from Sony's own fiscal results. They have never posted higher revenues and profits than they did last year.

And Sony was no a private company when they launched PS1, PS2, PS3 and PS4. They answered to shareholders and launched next gen consoles with next gen games while posting a fraction of profits they are doing today.

Dont defend greed.
 

tmlDan

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Hilarious to see you say that and then make up numbers yourself.



My numbers are from Sony's own fiscal results. They have never posted higher revenues and profits than they did last year.

And Sony was no a private company when they launched PS1, PS2, PS3 and PS4. They answered to shareholders and launched next gen consoles with next gen games while posting a fraction of profits they are doing today.

Dont defend greed.
I'm def not defending it, its a reality and its only getting worse.

The more gaming becomes mainstream the more status quo it becomes.

maybe it's sad but i've accepted it lol
 

Hobbygaming

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Indeed. I don’t know if its because they haven’t played the game or something or if its because its a remake. The downplaying of this game from some people is laughable, its easily the highest quality launch title I’ve experienced since I was a kid getting my Nintendo 64 with Super Mario 64.
The funny thing is the original Demon Souls sold less than 2 million units so it's a "new" game for the majority of gamers including myself
 

Hunnybun

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Apparently the base native resolution is 1080p, and then Housemarque says they use temporal upsampling to bring it to 1440p, and then checkerboarding to bring it further to 4k.

it looks very sharp to my untrained eyes, but I think DF said they notice some type of jaggy or grainy look. Returnal is very much a game where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I agree, there's just something about it in motion that's kind of mesmerising. I really need to get it bought, but now Deathloop is almost here I feel like I should get that first while there's some buzz about it.
 
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buenoblue

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60fps on console is a big enough jump for me. Play second son on an original PS4 then play assassin's Creed Valhalla on a ps5 and tell me it's not generationally better.
 

kiphalfton

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Yeah it's a joke honestly. This gen just has felt like more of the same. If it weren't for quick resume or the dualsense, I wouldn't tell the difference tbh. Consoles are like cell phones at this point.

The industry is too focused on hitting resolution and frame rate targets that they don't even give a damn to actually improve visual details or physics.

Somehow the ps4 was way outdated at launch than the ps5 was, yet the new ps5 is showing slower technical growth with games. Maybe developers just have lost their mojo? Who knows. But next gen has been a lie

Yeah, be that as it may we NEEDED a new generation of consoles. Last gen consoles were growing long in the teeth and even the PS4 Pro and X1X weren't cutting it anymore. The new generation of consoles will breathe some new life into the gaming development community, and raise the ceiling for "what is doable".
 
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It's so often the way with the first party PlayStation studios, they really know how pull everything out of the hardware. Killzone Shadowfall still looks incredible, especially if you let the PS5 help with the frame rate.

The issue with both inFamous and Shadowfall was although they looked fantastic, neither of them played as well as the PS3 games in those franchises and both of them were created for a single platform.. That doesn't stop them looking fantastic put there are certainly later PS4 games like the Uncharted games, Ghost of Tsushima, Horizon Zero Dawn that both look and play better than them.
 
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Very disingenuous OP, why don't you compare Demon's Souls PS5 to the best graphics you could find at the end of last gen? Why don't you look at comparisons between the Ratchet & Clank games. You will even find substantial upgrades on Marvel's Miles Morales compared to Spider-Man PS4. Yes, PlayStation games look great, and outside of Sony's first party you probably can count on one hand the other games that can compare visually (if you have the PC for it).
 

ripeavocado

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You can't simultaneously claim that RT effects don't suck up general GPU resources AND acknowledge that lower resolutions are caused by the employment of RT effects.

You just can't. The second is proof of the first.

Why the fuck am I even engaging you at this point. You're either a troll or a moron.

You have no idea how this works right?

Imagine you can render your Ratchet at native 4K 60 fps.

But now you want the super cool ray-traced reflections, unfortunately you can't have nice reflections at native 4K 60fps, the RT cores are weak, therefore you have to compromise.

It's even worse if AMD doesn't have dedicated RT cores like NVIDIA, again the hardware is weak.

You are insulting other users because you patethically want to comment something you don't know anything about lol.

We technically had a generational leap but the upgraded visuals aren't going to reflect that since we had a large leap in resolution as well. We went from around 720p games on the ps3 with a couple of games at 1080 to mostly 1080p games for ps4 so of course you are going to easily see a generation leap since the resolution didn't upgrade that much versus like 4 times resolution push from the ps4 to ps5.

This is exactly what I was talking about in the OP.

You’re right, I never clicked your Wikipedia link. I sent you the info from anandtech. Wonder which is more credible? Tech site or Wikipedia?

You should click it, it will show all the Jaguar CPUs and how the consoles APU were superiors to everything else, including APUs made for desktops.

The anandtech article quotes an opinion (that you can't even understand) of the journalists.

The wikipedia page show facts.

Next step logic but oh boy, you have a lot of work to do on it.

This is totally wrong, RT is technique used for creating accurate lighting, it's extremely expensive so we barely used it in previous gens. Now we add in special RT hardware to make it significantly less expensive but it's still an added cost that we never had until we had hardware to help speed it up.

The dedicated RT hardware is an opportunity not a cost.
Can be used for many things, including RT lighting.

If it is powerful enough can replace things that were done with the rest of the hardware therefore freeing resources.

Demon Souls being a remake doesn't exclude it from being a graphical showpiece and yes Ratchet and Clank does look amazing

Yes they look good but not jaw dropping like previous next gen titles.

wtf did i just read.

I sometimes wish i didn't come back to forums, people are nutso.

I am a graphics whore too and would love for next gen exclusives to come quickly, but as an adult i know the cost of everything in business. Games cost a ton more to make now than before, more detailed graphics equal more man hours so having an install base higher than 10 million is a necessity. You can complain sure, but think before you bitch and cry online.

More insults to a random users on the internet, you are definitely the stable guy here :messenger_tears_of_joy:

If more detailed graphics equal more man hours, how are indie teams made with an handful of people able to create games that looks much better than anything else created in the previous generations?

You may be a "graphics whore" but you don't seem tu understand much about it, sad...
 

ripeavocado

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Very disingenuous OP, why don't you compare Demon's Souls PS5 to the best graphics you could find at the end of last gen? Why don't you look at comparisons between the Ratchet & Clank games. You will even find substantial upgrades on Marvel's Miles Morales compared to Spider-Man PS4. Yes, PlayStation games look great, and outside of Sony's first party you probably can count on one hand the other games that can compare visually (if you have the PC for it).

Well you can, the generation leap isn't really there.

Ratchet & Clank 2016 was a budget remake made to be released with the R&C movie, it was never very good looking on PS4.
 

JerryinSoCal

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Weren't we all told by devs for a long time that the jump between this gen and last gen wouldn't be as big? Yeah the GPU's are a lot more powerful but look how good games started to look last gen, it's going to take a HUGE leap in power and the time to harness it to make games look like a big leap from where they were last gen. Infamous SS looks very good, the lighting is also static there is no time of day change or dynamic weather, each time of day has it's own weather set up etc so it's all canned, Ghost of Tsushima has dynamic time of day and weather. We are not even a year into the new gen yet, there has been a pandemic that has delayed a lot of games, almost everything is running behind. That along with cross-gen is going to keep some games from looking like a night and day difference from last gen but you still have to remember the games looked a lot better on PS4 than they did on PS3 so making a huge leap over them in the first two years isn't going to happen.
 
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ZywyPL

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The PS4 was not "outdated" at launch.

Maybe for console warriors who bragged about 50% more GPU power than XB1, but for everyone else it was a mid-tier GPU paired with a Celeron-equivalent CPU and 4GB RAM, so yeah, already outated before it even launched. That's why I skipped the gen entirely and went back to PC gaming, everyone who can read looked at the soecs sheet and knew what was coming.

OT:
The previous launch titles saw a boost in visuals and resolution, this time around it's resolution and framerate. Which is IMO a good direction, because the games look good enough already, while framerate has always been seriously lacking on consoles, so it's good to see it's finally getting more attention.