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Should humans eat meat for non-moral reasons?

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Ultryx

Member
Meat tastes great and fat is good for you.

Pretty sure there's also some consensus that the ability to cook meat with the discovery of fire assisted in the expansion of our brain size. But don't take my word for it.
 

Makai

Member
The One and Done™;215830599 said:
Meat taste good with seasoning and promotes muscle and strength growth. Will continue
Strength is mostly irrelevant these days, though.
 
Yes because it's tasty.

But is it worth the risk of parasitic infection and developing cancer later in life? Just because it tastes nice?

How else can you eat crispy bacon?

One of the most unhealthy foods in the planet. Processed , covered in bacteria and super high in bad cholesterol.
Also one of the worst offenders for contributing to heart disease.

Vitamin B12

Er... supplement with a high quality Methylcobalamin supplement perhaps.

When you buy meat then make sure it is high quality/grass fed and not crap that you pick up in a supermarket.
 

Zukuu

Banned
A calorie is a calorie. If you had your fill of needed vitamins and nutrients eat whatever you want. Don't want to get fat? Calorie input = calorie output. Wanna lose weight? Calorie input < calorie output. Simple as that.

I like meat, so I eat meat. Mostly chicken. Don't like to eat meat? Then don't eat it.
 

Fluvian

Banned

God I like his music I'm not the actual guy.
 

Rembrandt

Banned
I am so going to be happy when Lab Grown Meat is a thing. We can finally end this argument. :)

same. the moment i can get non-actual meat versions of my favorite meat then i'll immediately switch.

vegetarianism/veganism is something i applaud without having the strength to follow along with.
 
The *only* reasons to eat meat are non-moral, such as taste, convenience and tradition. You do not 'need' meat in any sense of the word. The fact that vegans should pay attention to B 12 more than others (even though something like 40% of Americans have a deficiency) is not an argument for eating meat considering how easy it is to supplement. Most of the B12 in meat is also from supplements given to the animals, so vegans are just cutting out the middle-man (plus where I live, you can actually buy edible plants that were given B12 supplements through the soil they were grown in).
 

Fou-Lu

Member
I think it is ridiculous that anyone would feel morals HAVE to be part of our diet selection. We are the dominant species on this planet, we can eat whatever we'd like and we do so because we enjoy it and to bond with our fellow humans. That's good enough reason for me.
 

Famassu

Member
A calorie is a calorie. If you had your fill of needed vitamins and nutrients eat whatever you want. Don't want to get fat? Calorie input = calorie output. Wanna lose weight? Calorie input < calorie output. Simple as that.

I like meat, so I eat meat. Mostly chicken. Don't like to eat meat? Then don't eat it.
If only meat (& dairy) production wasn't one of the biggest causes of environmental pollution & destruction & climate change. But hey, who gives a fuck if our children and grandchildren will suffer because at least you got to eat fucktons of bacon and steaks and crap!
 
If only meat (& dairy) production wasn't one of the biggest causes of environmental pollution & destruction & climate change. But hey, who gives a fuck if our children and grandchildren will suffer because at least you got to eat fucktons of bacon and steaks and crap!

There's a lot that can be done about that. We'll be synthesizing dairy before too long, and the footprint of "meat" is something that varies a lot. Farmed fish already use a small fraction of the carbon footprint of beef, and then that's even before you start feeding them GMO omega 3 acids instead of smaller fish!

I for one can't wait for meat we grow in vats, even.
 

entremet

Member
Humans have always ate animal products of some form. However, we eat way too much meat in the Western diet. And there are environmental concerns for livestock farming.

Even looking at modern hunter gatherers, they're not eating that much meat compared the Western omnivore. Meat production just doesn't scale well in hunter gatherer models.

Personally, I still eat meat, but not that much, around 3 to 5 ounces per week.

I think environmental and animal rights advocates should focus on helping people reduce their appetites for meat instead of total abstention. It's a much more sound strategy.

I was reading that the Chinese, due to their growing standard of living, are also consuming more meat. That's not gonna be good for the planet.

That's a lot of mouths to feed.
 

Famassu

Member
I think it is ridiculous that anyone would feel morals HAVE to be part of our diet selection. We are the dominant species on this planet, we can eat whatever we'd like and we do so because we enjoy it and to bond with our fellow humans. That's good enough reason for me.
Your view is far more ridiculous. Being the dominant species does not mean we can do what the fuck ever we want. If anything, it means the complete opposite considering how destructive humankind is. With great power comes great responsibility and we have every oblication trying to protect this Earth, something that does not go well with the idea that everyone should just eat as much meat as they please. Morals are a huge part of all other aspects of society, why food should some kind of exception (especially in western societies that very much have the option to shift to a more or even entirely non-animal based diet).

You are killing feeling, thinking & relatively wise beings for your own pathetic enjoyment without giving any fucks about said living beings or the environment as a whole. That's as immoral as one can be.
 
However, I think the protein per calorie of purely vegetarian foods is too expensive to accomplish, needing whey protein powder or unappealing tofu.

Take black beans. If I were to eat nothing but those, which would be a sad existence, I could only get 104 grams of protein on my diet of about 1500 calories. Weight lifters like to get 0.8 gram/pound or more of the weight they're targeting, which would put me 24 grams short.

Kendrick Farris, the (only) U.S. male Olympic weightlifter this year is vegan. There's no problem getting enough protein from vegan sources, including beans, nuts, quinoa, tofu/tempeh, and seitan (wheat gluten).

The Vegan Diet of American Olympic Weightlifter Kendrick Farris

Kendrick Farris said:
We shouldn’t get so caught up with "protein, protein, protein." Because you can get an excess of protein, and most of it just gets passed through the body.
 
Your view is far more ridiculous. Being the dominant species does not mean we can do what the fuck ever we want.

I mean, it does for all intents and purposes. We aren't measuring morality from some universal absolute we found in the source code of the universe, we're coming together in groups and debating based on our own opinions what the appropriate rules of behavior are. There is nobody to judge except ourselves. The desire to grant a "right to life" equivalent to those we grant to humans to non-human animals is just one opinion out of the range of possible ones to have.
 

h1nch

Member
Your view is far more ridiculous. Being the dominant species does not mean we can do what the fuck ever we want. If anything, it means the complete opposite considering how destructive humankind is. With great power comes great responsibility and we have every oblication trying to protect this Earth, something that does not go well with the idea that everyone should just eat as much meat as they please. Morals are a huge part of all other aspects of society, why food should some kind of exception (especially in western societies that very much have the option to shift to a more or even entirely non-animal based diet).

You are killing feeling, thinking & relatively wise beings for your own pathetic enjoyment without giving any fucks about said living beings or the environment as a whole. That's as immoral as one can be.

I totally get the argument about the negative environmental impact that our current meat industry causes, and arguments against hunting a species to extinction, and things of that nature. We need to be much better about these things.

But I fundamentally disagree that the simple act of killing/eating an animal that thinks/feels is somehow immoral. Such an act is a part of nature.
 
Kendrick Farris, the (only) U.S. male Olympic weightlifter this year is vegan. There's no problem getting enough protein from vegan sources, including beans, nuts, quinoa, tofu/tempeh, and seitan (wheat gluten).[/URL]

Privilege!

There's a big problem for a lot of people getting protein from those sources, they literally cannot afford it!
 
But is it worth the risk of parasitic infection and developing cancer later in life? Just because it tastes nice?
People do a lot of things that can be risky or lead to issues down the line because it's fun or entertaining or offers joy. Playing football or soccer. Being in the sun. Hiking. Eating meat

Eating food hasn't been a means of pure nutrition for millennia. It's about the act of having a meal, enjoying the taste, the presentation, feeling accomplished when you cook a nice dish or being with friends and family when you're at a restaurant.
 

Jams775

Member
Kendrick Farris, the (only) U.S. male Olympic weightlifter this year is vegan. There's no problem getting enough protein from vegan sources, including beans, nuts, quinoa, tofu/tempeh, and seitan (wheat gluten).

The Vegan Diet of American Olympic Weightlifter Kendrick Farris

Though he says he still takes supplements but didn't say which.

I'm curious how many more pounds of food he'd have to consume to get the same amount of protein from meat. I was comparing the differences in iron from kale and meat which was 67g of kale gets 1mg of iron while 3 to 5 ounces of meat can net you 11mg+ and I read the body is like 3 times worse at processing vegetable iron than meat.

If everyone switched to no meat, how much more vegetables that have the same nutrients meats does would we have to produce?
 
But I fundamentally disagree that the simple act of killing/eating an animal that thinks/feels is somehow immoral. Such an act is a part of nature.

Well unless you think eating humans, or dogs and cats, is okay, then your viewpoint comes down to simple species-ism; that some animals are worth murdering and some aren't. I don't see how that's not still a moral equation.

Privilege!

There's a big problem for a lot of people getting protein from those sources, they literally cannot afford it!

lol what. For most of the world's population, meat is something they can't afford except for special celebrations. Meat is only cheap in America because the meat industry is heavily subsidized by the government. First-world, western meat-eaters are actually the privileged ones.
 

Famassu

Member
There's a lot that can be done about that. We'll be synthesizing dairy before too long, and the footprint of "meat" is something that varies a lot. Farmed fish already use a small fraction of the carbon footprint of beef, and then that's even before you start feeding them GMO omega 3 acids instead of smaller fish!

I for one can't wait for meat we grow in vats, even.
There are already oat & other plant-based products that are getting better and better at emulating "real" dairy products (I'd say stuff like plant-based creams, yoghurt, ice creams, cream cheeses, whipped cream, and even some cheeses and such are already almost indistinguishable from dairy alternatives), with oat being a very easy to grow and ecological crop. Cheeses are the furthest away I think (there are some vegan cheeses that don't really resemble cheese all that much, though nowadays there are some that are really close as well), the rest really are universally good enough that no one will notice if you replace the dairy versions with plant based ones.

And I've brought this up before, but I'd really like to know how energy & resource efficient lab-grown meat is. I also very much doubt that these people who have glorified meat to an almost holy status in their life are going to take lab grown meats unless we drag them to the new era of lab meat kicking and screaming. People are extremely picky about things like these. I mean, we already have plant-based sausages, pullet pork like products, minced meat and such but because they aren't real meat, people dismiss them automatically.

Edit: I mean, just look at how GMO food is generally received. Mass hysteria due to silly reasons.
 
Don't like to eat meat? Then don't eat it.
Don't think people should own slaves? Don't own slaves.

Humans are just one species of animal. What is required from members of another species that you would extend the same basic rights to not be murdered or owned as property that we hold for members our species?
 
Privilege!

There's a big problem for a lot of people getting protein from those sources, they literally cannot afford it!

Beans and Peas are relatively cheap. Soybeans especially. You can easily make your own tempeh and tofu for less price then buying. Even then you can get that in bulk.

Other stuff like nuts,seeds, wheat gluten are cheap in bulk as well.

Plant protein is literally cheaper and more abundant/efficient by weight.

lol what. For most of the world's population, meat is something they can't afford except for special celebrations. Meat is only cheap in America because the meat industry is heavily subsidized by the government. First-world, western meat-eaters are actually the privileged ones.
They need to stop this
 

entremet

Member
There are already oat & other plant-based products that are getting better and better at emulating "real" dairy products (I'd say stuff like plant-based creams, yoghurt, ice creams, cream cheeses, whipped cream, and even some cheeses and such are already almost indistinguishable from dairy alternatives), with oat being a very easy to grow and ecological crop. Cheeses are the furthest away I think (there are some vegan cheeses that don't really resemble cheese all that much, though nowadays there are some that are really close as well), the rest really are universally good enough that no one will notice if you replace the dairy versions with plant based ones.

And I've brought this up before, but I'd really like to know how energy & resource efficient lab-grown meat is. I also very much doubt that these people who have glorified meat to an almost holy status in their life are going to take lab grown meats unless we drag them to the new era of lab meat kicking and screaming. People are extremely picky about things like these. I mean, we already have plant-based sausages, pullet pork like products, minced meat and such but because they aren't real meat, people dismiss them automatically.

Edit: I mean, just look at how GMO food is generally received. Mass hysteria due to silly reasons.
I'd rather stick to beans over the faux meat stuff honestly.
 
But here's the thing, and I'm asking because it's been bothering me in the context of fitness and weight / fat loss: there is no compelling evidence that humans are made or even meant to eat meat other than the occasional special event of some kind, yet we maintain this idea that we are apex predator carnivores and we've even tied the idea of eating meat to masculinity. .

I don't know what you'd call compelling evidence, but...

Anthropologist finds evidence of hominin meat eating 1.5 million years ago: Eating meat may have 'made us human'

"Meat eating has always been considered one of the things that made us human, with the protein contributing to the growth of our brains," said Charles Musiba, Ph.D., associate professor of anthropology at the University of Colorado Denver, who helped make the discovery. "Our work shows that 1.5 million years ago we were not opportunistic meat eaters, we were actively hunting and eating meat."
The two-inch skull fragment was found at the famed Olduvai Gorge in northern Tanzania, a site that for decades has yielded numerous clues into the evolution of modern humans and is sometimes called `the cradle of mankind.'

The fragment belonged to a 2-year-old child and showed signs of porotic hyperostosis associated with anemia. According to the study, the condition was likely caused by a diet suddenly lacking in meat.

"The presence of anemia-induced porotic hyperostosis…indicates indirectly that by at least the early Pleistocene meat had become so essential to proper hominin functioning that its paucity or lack led to deleterious pathological conditions," the study said. "Because fossils of very young hominin children are so rare in the early Pleistocene fossil record of East Africa, the occurrence of porotic hyperostosis in one…suggests we have only scratched the surface in our understanding of nutrition and health in ancestral populations of the deep past."

Musiba said the evidence showed that the juvenile's diet was deficient in vitamin B12 and B9. Meat seems to have been cut off during the weaning process.

"He was not getting the proper nutrients and probably died of malnutrition," he said.
 

keuja

Member
I think your teeth and your taste buds are pretty compelling evidence that humans have been eating meat regularly for a long long time.
 

bionic77

Member
Yes because it's tasty.
You also feel good after you eat it. It is great comfort food.

I can't really find a reason to justify it other than being selfish. I can't even gut a fish let alone a chicken and yet I sometimes eat meat 3 times in a day.
 
Don't think people should own slaves? Don't own slaves.

Humans are just one species of animal. What is required from members of another species that you would extend the same basic rights to not be murdered or owned as property that we hold for members our species?

I know an entrepreneur when I see one.

Well, since you can't legally own homo sapiens as property and take their milk for the cost of keeping them alive and producing, it would probably cost a lot more. Slavery has a way of driving down costs.

the market is ripe for the taking.
 

h1nch

Member
Well unless you think eating humans, or dogs and cats, is okay, then your viewpoint comes down to simple species-ism; that some animals are worth murdering and some aren't. I don't see how that's not still a moral equation.

Well for one, I don't consider the act of killing an animal for food to be murder.
 
Ah, not even 100 posts in and we're at the cannibalism stage.

Keep on keeping on, you crazy (militant) vegans, you. Surely someday your batshit crazy ramblings will convert the normies.
 

Famassu

Member
Privilege!

There's a big problem for a lot of people getting protein from those sources, they literally cannot afford it!
Some vegan products can be a bit on the expensive side (some higher quality marinaded tofus), but in general vegan diet is extremely cheap, especially if you cook most of your food yourself instead of buying some microwaveable crap. Legumes are cheap, soy proteins are cheap, 100 grams of gluten flour (main ingredient of seitan) costs 0,60€ in Finland (I usually buy 500-600g at once and that lasts me for 2-3 weeks), most vegetables in general are really cheap.
 

jax

Banned
Check your privilege.

If you think developing countries can get protein from tofu as affordably as, say, aquaculture, you are sorely mistaken. Inland fish farming for the win.
Okay, but this doesn't stop 99% of the people in non-developing countries that can easily afford tofu and plant based proteins.
 
And I think that makes the argument that it's a deeply ingrained part of our humanity.
By this token, rape, murder / infanticide etc are deeply ingrained parts of our humanity. Having done something for a long time does not mean we must do it today.

Edit: It is fair to say eating meat is a deeply ingrained part of most cultures, but it would not be wise to argue for moral relativism based on some of the awful things carried on in the name of tradition.
 

Lautaro

Member
Ah, not even 100 posts in and we're at the cannibalism stage.

Keep on keeping on, you crazy (militant) vegans, you. Surely someday your batshit crazy ramblings will convert the normies.

Don't forget the analogies with slavery. Those comparisons are surely gonna stop people from eating meat.

EDIT: fuck and the analogies keep going wilder. Also is funny that the thread is about non moral reasons but the moral aspect is now the center of discussion, I guess is inevitable.
 
By this token, rape, murder / infanticide etc are deeply ingrained parts of our humanity. Having done something for a long time does not mean we must do it today.
Eating meat and performing rape, murder, and infanticide are kind of in slightly different ballparks though.

And I also disagree that those things are deeply ingrained parts of our humanity, or else we'd fine with it like most people are fine with eating meat because they would be so ingrained in us
 
Eating meat and performing rape, murder, and infanticide are kind of in different ballparks though

And I also disagree that those things are deeply ingrained parts of our humanity, or else we'd fine with it like most people are fine with eating meat because those things would be so ingrained in us
The logic is the same though. This is something those who scoff at the mere mention of say, slavery or cannibalism don't seem to understand, that in philosophical discussions of morality, it is the norm to use thought experiments to demonstrate logical positions. It is one thing to say 'eating meat is as wrong as killing babies', it is quite another to say 'the logic you are using to justify harming animals could be equally used to justify killing babies'.
 
No need for meat when there are oysters! They are vegan, high in zinc, a little fattier but that can be processed out, and have lots of good complete protein. They also won't chemically castrate you with either hormones or soys, actually they increase your testosterone.

Oh and it seems the mercury scare is a hoax, so that is one less thing you have to worry about if you still have doubts about oysters. The only big BUT is that pound for pound they are pricier than ground meat. But hey, they can be eaten raw and the canned ones are already cooked, while meat you have to cook every time, and time is money
 
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