• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Sega's habit of releasing "Fad" games likely contributed to their demise post-Genesis.

Yeah nah I got one free on ps plus and it was too much watching not enough playing for me. Also I'm not a play tester I'm a consumer. Only games I ever hear about from them that are anticipated are the Yakuza games.

My advice? Move on from this abusive relationship.

Your own anecdotal viewpoint isn't reflective of the macro viewpoint, though. They've been doing very well quality-wise since at least the mid 2010s, ignoring the (still inconsistent) Sonic (Mania was very well-received but Team Sonic Racing a bit less so; Forces wasn't well-received).

In terms of arcade releases, HOTD: Scarlet Dawn's been very well-received at arcade and FEC locations, same with SEGA World Driver's Championship (Japan-only). Same with the Persona games (Atlus develops but SEGA publishes), PSO Universe 2 (translated XBO port coming next year IIRC), the new Sakura Wars is previewing well, etc.

Snarky retorts don't mean anything if you aren't educated on the topic to begin with. Now, if they would tighten up on their marketing (just IMO, their marketing's always felt a bit anemic if it isn't Sonic, for the past decade).
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
I will give you a first-hand account on the very likely reason why Dreamcast actually died: it was deliberately killed by Microsoft and Xbox. And why is it first hand? Back in the day, I was part of the team which developed Supreme Snowboarding 2 for dreamcast. Then Microsoft came and wanted to give our publisher "a better offer"; ditch the dreamcast and come develop Transworld license for Xbox. And the publisher and my employer took it, much to my grimace. In one GDC party, just before the launch of Xbox, some drunk Microsoft employees actually bragged to me that yes, it was their deliberate tactic to attract away all the third-party developers away from the Dreamcast, as Microsoft knew that it was the games that sold the consoles. And the rest is history. It probably does not come as news to you that even to this day, I have very little love for Xbox.

Now do with this information what you will.

There's no doubt MS was swinging dicks around at that time, but let's not pretend that the Xbox sold well, or that anything but Halo sold the console. MS spent a lot of money for very little gain on that platform.
 

nkarafo

Member
Relying on arcades to sell your consoles is never a good idea. Early on Atari tried that with their 5200 and 7800 consoles, where they ported the same arcade games again and again, just with better graphics. Who cares if we could finally play an arcade perfect Donkey Kong after so many attempts, the NES had Super Mario Bros, Zelda, Castlevania, etc.

Arcade ports are a nice addition in the library but it's always the exclusives that sell consoles.
 
There's no doubt MS was swinging dicks around at that time, but let's not pretend that the Xbox sold well, or that anything but Halo sold the console. MS spent a lot of money for very little gain on that platform.

But MS went in knowing they'd lose money on the original Xbox. Their whole strategy was to tank the losses and build up a fanbase to get things rolling with its successor, the 360.

It was a smart strategy going by 360's success, but the kind of strategy only a company like MS or Sony could've pulled off thanks to their size and multitude of divisions they could pull vital resources from.

Relying on arcades to sell your consoles is never a good idea. Early on Atari tried that with their 5200 and 7800 consoles, where they ported the same arcade games again and again, just with better graphics. Who cares if we could finally play an arcade perfect Donkey Kong after so many attempts, the NES had Super Mario Bros, Zelda, Castlevania, etc.

Arcade ports are a nice addition in the library but it's always the exclusives that sell consoles.

The 5200 and 7800 had a host of other problems that weren't due to arcade ports in particular. Chiefly, they had the issue of reusing outdated tech components which limited what type of games they could even port, and that was in addition to other problems.

While ultimately it's the exclusives that will contribute a lot to a system's legacy, arcade ports were actually big draws at the time. Tekken and Ridge Racer were two of THE big AAA launch period killer apps for the PS1, and those were arcade ports with little extra content for the home releases. Virtua Fighter sold around 1:1 with the Saturn in Japan, and was also an arcade port. Tekken 3 is one of the PS1's best-selling games of all time and was, effectively, an arcade port (but with tons of extra home content).

Aside from that, it's actually generally the multiplatform-style sports franchise games that have been the biggest draws for a lot of gamers. Madden, FIFA, the 2K games....you can expand that these days to your CODs and GTAs. Big tentpole franchises, those are generally what seem to be the biggest pushers on a given platform over the long-term. Exclusives are, for the majority of those consumers, an added bonus...

...although it seems to be an inverse with Nintendo platforms post-N64. But that tends to be the outlier (I would argue that Sony has/had a similar element with their 1st-party in the form of Gran Turismo, but that IP's lost a bit of its marquee prestige this generation).
 
Last edited:

Xenon

Member
Man this thread is a disaster, just everyone is wrong and it's all haters vs. fools that are drunk by nostalgia, and we are seeing the same old talking points over and over again.

As much as the OP doesn't want it to, this is just another thread indirectly asking why Sega failed and while OP offers a unique perspective, it's also wrong.

It's baffling to see Sega threads end up the same. There is an actual objective answer to why Sega failed and that's because Sega was never a competitor in the video game industry until Sega of America started gaining too much power and Sega of Japan followed. Being aggressively competitive basically shattered the original business model of the company. Long post ahead.

When you look at Segas business structure before 1990 they were a passive gaming company. They would have 3 tiers of arcade machines, an entry level machine, which offered fun cheap games, a standard tier, which is what most arcade games looked like graphically at the time, and a Pro tier which would produce their most graphically intensive software

Segas game consoles were sold as just a central hub to have access to many of their games and wouldn't sell much more than 10-20 million units a pop. That was the plan.

Their business model was based on SoA, SoJ, and SoE, having some power to adapt to market conditions. But that was the jest of it. They were balanced entities that drew off each other.

The business model split three ways, Arcade revenue, Console revenue, and popular hits would be ported on almost any machine that could play games for additional profit. That was Segas company structure and business model.

The only time Sega was really competitive was a few small jabs at Nintendo in japan, which they eventually scaled back. Notice that until they started dialing it back in 1990 Sega was frequently publishing games on several gaming systems other than Nintendo? Even the PC Engine?

That was all part of Segas business model and company structure. They were an arcade company that would have a console just as an option to have access to their games and games from partners. Big hits would be ported on nearly every system for additional funding. All 3 branches of Sega were balanced with equal power and a shared budget plan to lift the company as a whole.

What changed? In 1990 Sega of America increased the stakes and tried to make Sega much more competitive in the video game market, an area Sega was not heavily competing in because they were focused primarily on the arcade market, two different markets.

As Sega of America picked up the pace, Sega of America gained more power, and once they 1991 came they suddenly had a game to take advantage of their new ambitions, Sonic the Hedgehog. A game they used to launch the Genesis platform as a major competitor that would become the next big thing. Sonic became a huge household name, and it was also given away for free.

Sega of Europe would follow suit and you'd see similar influence in other areas. Sega of America was running on its own as a separate company. When you view it logically it makes sense why Sega of Japan was pissed. The problem was that Sega of Americas strategy worked, and Sega of Japan decided to be competitive as well BUT knock Sega of America down a peg as well.

This is where Segas death had its beginning. Sega as a whole, arguably made not a single dime from 1991 to the Dreamcast discontinuation because suddenly Sega was spending more than what they were bringing in across the entire company.

Due to the competitive nature, more money on ads were spend, more money on games were spend, more reactionary moves were made, more discontinuing unsuccessful products occurred without playing the long game.

When you look at the Sega CD for example, it was supposed to be an option that would attract software and make profit overtime. Instead the Sega CD became a product that was dropped once it stopped making the amount of money Sega wanted it to make. The 32X was the same, it was greenlit to make the Genesis more competitive against upcoming consoles and after the launch excitement dissipated and the money dried up the 32X was dropped and they decided to focus everything on the Saturn. The Game Gear was also an attempt to jump in and compete in a market.

The Saturn was supposed to be a 2D beast with some great 3D capabilities but nothing to crazy. They decided that they had to try and make the Saturn compete with Sony so slapped in hardware that made programming more complicated. Once it became clear Sega may have had a chance in Japan, Sega of Japan basically took complete control of the system ultimately failing to sell what Sega of Japan hoped for.

Sega of Japan also decided to change their old arcade strategy and decided to try competing to be the best their as well. More chaos.

The Dreamcast was launched when Sega had both their arms cut off. They created a system that NEEDED to sell a certain amount to make a profit, so they decided to gamble on an expensive idea, online. This was done to attract more players to buy Dreamcast consoles even if they never used the feature itself. The Idea was if Sega could sell a certain amount of Dreamcasts than the company could become competitive again. But Sega wasn't able to pull it off.

Here's what I think the timeline would have been if Sega of America didn't break the companies managing structure.

1990: Maybe a few jabs at Nintendo from SoA, but no power hungry elite trying to make the Genesis the next big thing.
1991: Sonic comes out helps with sales, several arcade ports do better with balanced advertising. The Arcades are still ranking in dough. Likely don't release the gamegear since they aren't as competitive. We would have still seen many Sega games on toher consoles.
1992: Sega CD comes out as an option, courts developers and places some cool ports on it. Likely would end up selling more than it had now since they would have it out on shelves longer playing the long game.
1993: More games than ever before due to balanced game marketing, Genesis would likely end up selling the same or near the same in the end without the unnecessary spending.
1994: Since Sega would be more passive they would not react tot he Jaguar with the 32x.
1995: Since Sega would be more passive, they would not react to the PS1, and the console would release cheaper as a result. No sudden launch. Balanced marketing over many original games and cool arcade ports. No focus on software titles trying to compete with PS1 directly. Likely would sell much more in the US and Japan than it did in the real world.
1996: Growing library, cheaper price, less competitive arcade division adding to profits, no failed attempts at more portable consoles would save on R&D.
1997: Continue from 1996.
1998: Since Sega wouldn't need to replace the Saturn to stop bleeding in this timeline the Dreamcast likely wouldn't come out until 1999 or 2000 and the online gimmick may bot have happened or had limited in functionality.
1999: Possible Dreamcast launch.
2000: Possible Dreamcast launch, due to technology advances it would still have a pretty powerful consoles for cheap. Arcades would be dying but profitable, and a switch to more original titles on the Dreamcast with balanced marketing. No abrupt discontinuation.
2005: Dreamcast 2

People don't understand that what arguably brought Sega to many homes aggressively, and made Sonic a household name, is what killed Sega.

Sega went from having a balanced model between branches and hardware making tons of profit, to one branch becoming too powerful and influencing the others to try really hard to be #1, even if their business structure didn't support it or the fact they did not have the money to trade hits with anyone.

I would not be surprised if the old sayings are true and Sega as a whole did not make a dime after 1991. When you look at the few financial reports we have access to they are combining sectors or omitting sectors, we never have an idea if the whole company is making or losing money, just that some areas would lose money and some would claim to make money. But anything that would tell us overall profit for the company entirely was always sidelined.

To be short, Sega didn't know how to run a competitive company and their business structure wasn't made to do so. They decided to trade hits with people that not only had more money, but had companies designed from the top down to compete in the market that Sega wasn't even primarily in. This competitive nature then spread across all branches in nearly all countries they operated in and later in the arcade industry, which was their focus.

When you suddenly start spending triple the amount on ads and software while making pointless R&D decisions, it makes perfect sense why Sega wasn't able to stick around. One of the reasons why Sega of America was able to gain that much power was because it wasn't expected. Sega of Japan had no regulations placed on anyone. No wonder they were pissed.

Sure their retaliation was very dumb and petty, but at least I can see why they were pissed.


So wrong. The reason why people are rehashing the same talking points is because there's actually truth to them. There was never any balance at Sega, their arcade division was the driving force until it wasn't and they failed to adapt. Sonic success was not its downfall it was the thing that unlock third parties and gave them their only chance. Ultimately though it was the lack of leadership that did destroy the company. And the fact that there are so many bad decisions to choose from is what makes it an interesting conversation. But not all of them are bad. Sega Sports success played a part in the Dreamcasts's failure since EA decided to lock the system out. No Madden back then was a death sentence. They did the right thing for the players but the wrong thing for their business.

Ultimately though their failure rest solely on Sega of Japan's inability to manage a worldwide company and Leverage the different strengths of each region. Something Nintendo and Sony has done very very well.
 
Last edited:

cireza

Banned
You're obviously not old enough to remember when sega was actually doing good as opposed to just surviving.
Great, now you are throwing random stuff which you again have no clue about. I have been around for quite some time, started playing Sega games on the Master System. It was my second console, the first one being the NES.

What I am certain of however is that you have no clue about the quality of current Sega games. Stop exposing your ignorance or repeating whatever stupid opinion you read somewhere on the internet. Go and play Sega games. Face the truth.

The market clearly didn't agree with your opinion.
Is a human being impersonating "the market" ? This thread (OP) is about saying that Sega failed because their games were bad. The answer is no. There weren't. Many of their games had excellent reviews, this is a fact. Just as, I am sure, you consider whatever reviews as fact when it drives your narrative. So the market mainly bought what was advertised and talked about = marketing. Strange, these two words really look alike.
 
Last edited:

Enjay

Banned
Great, now you are throwing random stuff which you again have no clue about. I have been around for quite some time, started playing Sega games on the Master System. It was my second console, the first one being the NES.

What I am certain of however is that you have no clue about the quality of current Sega games. Stop exposing your ignorance or repeating whatever stupid opinion you read somewhere on the internet. Go and play Sega games. Face the truth.
Wikipedia would've been great for me back when I was in school. 👍
 

Enjay

Banned
I will give you a first-hand account on the very likely reason why Dreamcast actually died: it was deliberately killed by Microsoft and Xbox. And why is it first hand? Back in the day, I was part of the team which developed Supreme Snowboarding 2 for dreamcast. Then Microsoft came and wanted to give our publisher "a better offer"; ditch the dreamcast and come develop Transworld license for Xbox. And the publisher and my employer took it, much to my grimace. In one GDC party, just before the launch of Xbox, some drunk Microsoft employees actually bragged to me that yes, it was their deliberate tactic to attract away all the third-party developers away from the Dreamcast, as Microsoft knew that it was the games that sold the consoles. And the rest is history. It probably does not come as news to you that even to this day, I have very little love for Xbox.

Now do with this information what you will.
Wow at there being a game called Transworld License way back in the dreamcast days.... makes a person wonder how far back this actually goes eh?
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
I forget the name of the book, I read it several years ago, but it was written by an ex executive and it details how horrendous the Japanese leadership was for Sega. They were full of bad ideas and didn't respect the creative solutions from their European and US counterparts. That is unfortunately a problem not unique to Sega in Japan.
 

Enjay

Banned
I forget the name of the book, I read it several years ago, but it was written by an ex executive and it details how horrendous the Japanese leadership was for Sega. They were full of bad ideas and didn't respect the creative solutions from their European and US counterparts. That is unfortunately a problem not unique to Sega in Japan.
I still remember how stupid they were during the Saturn days. Sega of Japan had the only original sonic game in development for the saturn shut down while it was being hyped up in magazines because they didn't want sega america using their game engine.
 
I forget the name of the book, I read it several years ago, but it was written by an ex executive and it details how horrendous the Japanese leadership was for Sega. They were full of bad ideas and didn't respect the creative solutions from their European and US counterparts. That is unfortunately a problem not unique to Sega in Japan.

Console Wars? That book was basically the story about one person. It's a very one-sided story full of inconsistencies and inaccuracies. Tom Kalinske is one hell of a bitter person, that cannot face the slightest criticism for his incompetent leadership during the mid-90s.

Team Andromeda Team Andromeda and I commented on this already, but read for yourself here:

SEGAbits forum
SEGA-16 forum: Is Tom Kalinske full of it?
SEGA-16 forum: Tom Kalinske: Sega's Been Doing It Wrong for Past 20 Years!
 

cai24

Banned
Except most of the Xbox games launched in the first year were not in development for the Dreamcast and were either stolen from Sony, made for the Xbox, or brought in from PC.

Also true or not, no offense, but that's not a system selling game you're talking about.

No offense taken. It was not about our game. I told the story as first-hand experienced example of how teams were pulled away from dreamcast. Also, it does not matter if games launched in the first year were stolen from Sony / made for xbox. It does not invalidate my point, which was that Microsoft contributed willingly on pulling many third parties away from dreamcast, which contributed heavily on it's demise.

Also, I hope you did not think that I came here to brag on my DC dev days, I was hoping that sharing some facts from what I experienced would help the conversation find some tracks. Could be that it did not. Well, I did what I could.

There's no doubt MS was swinging dicks around at that time, but let's not pretend that the Xbox sold well, or that anything but Halo sold the console. MS spent a lot of money for very little gain on that platform.

As stated elsewhere, the point was that MS was working on long-term, which meant losing money was something they prepared for, and getting teams away from Dreamcast was less games for dreamcast, which, as stated above, contributed to its demise.

Wow at there being a game called Transworld License way back in the dreamcast days.... makes a person wonder how far back this actually goes eh?

I am not quite sure what you wrote there or what you meant. But allow me to clarify just in case. We did not develop a game called "Transworld license" - we developed game based on Transworld license. And no, it wasnt' that great and it didn't sell very well. I wish we had done Supreme Snowboarding 2 instead, we already had demo rolling on dreamcast, by the time it was cancelled, running at smooth 60fps. But such is life.

I don't want to sound antagonistic or dismissive, but I do admit that the OP triggered me to write my view as to how I personally experienced DC's demise at the time.. Now based on the replies I am not sure if it was a good idea at all. It may be better if you continue your discussion without me, because it looks like I completely failed to get any of my points across. Have a good one and I hope I did not trigger you guys accidentally, I assure you that it was not intentional.
 

v1oz

Member
Their business model was based on having a console to give consumers access to their games in one place like a Hub, at least the games they could bring from the arcade and some original titles. The other part of the model was to give almost everyone else their games on their machines.

This is the part you are missing and why your post focuses only on the arcade. The whole company was structured on a balance between all it's branches and to be as passive as possible. Sega was not a company designed to trade blows with the big boys, react to the competition, and spend triple the amount on games, R&D, and hardware hoping for a miracle.
The problem is they couldn't balance the business because the arcade market was shrinking. The PC-engine was dying slowly in Japan. They were never going to support Sony or Nintendo as third parties. The only markets with continued growth were mobiles (specially in Japan but Nintendo had a monopoly), PCs and home consoles. Sega made a ton of money from the Genesis, probably more than the other divisions, so the business was never truly balanced as it was heavily skewed towards consoles in the 90's. Sega did support the PC back then and continue to do well there mostly through acquisitions rather than their own internal studios.


This has nothing to do with capitalism. If Sega stuck to their old model they would still be making hardware. The Genesis as history shows, was a massive mistake that caused the infighting in the first place, and ruined their profits and led to Sega desperately trying to expand in many different areas that they never succeeded in. Then, just like Commodore, they had one chance with one system IF they could sell and produce enough to make a profit and they didn't.
Not with the way the company was mismanaged and the internal politics. It would be impossible for Sega to provide a console with healthy support whilst still balancing out the other divisions.

In a hypothetical scenario let's say Sega did put equal resources and emphasis into all different divisions to balance their business, the way other Japanese companies that dabbled in consoles did for example; NEC, Matsushita and Sharp (which are conglomerates that are heavily invested in other sectors). They still would not be able to compete with Sony and Microsoft on the hardware market. As they do not have the resources to do that and they have a history of bad management. You can't market a console and put limited resources into supporting it with content.
 
Last edited:
Their business model was based on having a console to give consumers access to their games in one place like a Hub, at least the games they could bring from the arcade and some original titles. The other part of the model was to give almost everyone else their games on their machines.

This is the part you are missing and why your post focuses only on the arcade. The whole company was structured on a balance between all it's branches and to be as passive as possible. Sega was not a company designed to trade blows with the big boys, react to the competition, and spend triple the amount on games, R&D, and hardware hoping for a miracle.

This has nothing to do with capitalism. If Sega stuck to their old model they would still be making hardware. The Genesis as history shows, was a massive mistake that caused the infighting in the first place, and ruined their profits and led to Sega desperately trying to expand in many different areas that they never succeeded in. Then, just like Commodore, they had one chance with one system IF they could sell and produce enough to make a profit and they didn't.



You do realize you just did it again right? You can't use a subjective argument when talking about market performance. The market clearly didn't agree with your opinion. That's not an attack on Sega, that's just what happened.

Says Mr. HD-DVD > Blu-Ray.
 
Sega games were sub-par when compared to the competition.

Every time they came out with a major product, or helped get one published by partnering with a thirdparty company, the competition had a similar product that was better, more receptive, or was more compelling for various reasons, like having more content. Same thing happened with Atari after the 2600 for home consoles (not computers and Lynx)

Almost every major title they published that wasn't a thrown together mess or a game that targeted a niche intentionally, had a similar game made by the competition that was simply better or more appealing. Not only is this why they have the highest failure rate in the industry, but this is also why Sega focuses so much on the Genesis since their demise when re-releasing their catalog, because it's the only time they had games that you could argue where better. Don't get me started on them trying to copy the competition and failing miserably like with Sega GT.

Alex Kidd<<<<< Mario, Mega Man, Metroid, Castlevania, etc.

Virtua Fighter<<<<< Tekken, Tobal, Bloody Roar, etc

Daytona, Sega Rally, Metropolis, Crazy Taxi<<<<< Driver, Midnight Club, Ridge Racer, RUSH, Crusin, Need For Speed, Colin Mcrae, Wipeout, Screamer, etc.

Shining Force, Phantasy Star, Beyond Oasis<<<<< Secret Series, Star Ocean, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, YS, etc.

Gunstar Heroes<<<<< Contra, Metal Slug, Super Smash TV, etc.

Sega GT<<<<< Gran Turismo, Forza, Grand Prix Legends, EA F1, etc.

House of the Dead, VIrtua Cop<<<<< Time Crisis, Area 51, FMV games, etc.

You can go on and on. I'm not saying every game had a better alternative but most of them did, and if your competition consistently has better options than what your company produces, where do you think the customers will go to?

The reason why Sega released the SegaCD and 32X was to offer something the competition didn't have or to get a head start on the competition. That's it. This isn't a complicated issues.
 
Sega games were sub-par when compared to the competition.

Every time they came out with a major product, or helped get one published by partnering with a thirdparty company, the competition had a similar product that was better, more receptive, or was more compelling for various reasons, like having more content. Same thing happened with Atari after the 2600 for home consoles (not computers and Lynx)

Almost every major title they published that wasn't a thrown together mess or a game that targeted a niche intentionally, had a similar game made by the competition that was simply better or more appealing. Not only is this why they have the highest failure rate in the industry, but this is also why Sega focuses so much on the Genesis since their demise when re-releasing their catalog, because it's the only time they had games that you could argue where better. Don't get me started on them trying to copy the competition and failing miserably like with Sega GT.

Alex Kidd<<<<< Mario, Mega Man, Metroid, Castlevania, etc.

Virtua Fighter<<<<< Tekken, Tobal, Bloody Roar, etc

Daytona, Sega Rally, Metropolis, Crazy Taxi<<<<< Driver, Midnight Club, Ridge Racer, RUSH, Crusin, Need For Speed, Colin Mcrae, Wipeout, Screamer, etc.

Shining Force, Phantasy Star, Beyond Oasis<<<<< Secret Series, Star Ocean, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, YS, etc.

Gunstar Heroes<<<<< Contra, Metal Slug, Super Smash TV, etc.

Sega GT<<<<< Gran Turismo, Forza, Grand Prix Legends, EA F1, etc.

House of the Dead, VIrtua Cop<<<<< Time Crisis, Area 51, FMV games, etc.

You can go on and on. I'm not saying every game had a better alternative but most of them did, and if your competition consistently has better options than what your company produces, where do you think the customers will go to?

The reason why Sega released the SegaCD and 32X was to offer something the competition didn't have or to get a head start on the competition. That's it. This isn't a complicated issues.

I disagree.
 
The thing is not everyone likes Nintendo style games.

I think that the Saturn may have failed because it handled 3d relatively bad compared to the ps3, and they didn't bring the good games from Japan.
 
I disagree.

Which is why Sega failed and all the competition that generally sold better are still around.

If you saw the reality maybe you could have mailed a suggestion to Sega to restructure themselves and maybe they would still be a console manufacturer, or at least would have a stock price worth something more than $3.

Oh, i'm sorry, the old Sega is gone, this is just a new company called Sega with different staff that's a subsidiary to what was once Sammy, which went with naming themselves Sega Sammy after the buyout-merger hybrid because they thought the Sega brand had value. This new company which has a stock value currently worth $3.

I think that the Saturn may have failed because it handled 3d relatively bad compared to the ps3

I would hope the Saturn had worse graphics than a console that came out 12 years later.
 
Which is why Sega failed and all the competition that generally sold better are still around.

If you saw the reality maybe you could have mailed a suggestion to Sega to restructure themselves and maybe they would still be a console manufacturer, or at least would have a stock price worth something more than $3.

Oh, i'm sorry, the old Sega is gone, this is just a new company called Sega with different staff that's a subsidiary to what was once Sammy, which went with naming themselves Sega Sammy after the buyout-merger hybrid because they thought the Sega brand had value. This new company which has a stock value currently worth $3.



I would hope the Saturn had worse graphics than a console that came out 12 years later.

I get it. Sega failed. We all know that. I won't subscribe to your revisionist history. That's my only contention.
 
It makes you look like an idiot to make that accusation without back up, want to provide some?

If you're not going to say whether you're listing a game because it sold more, or because it's "better" (?), it's kind of hard for someone to forensically take on a list.
 
If you're not going to say whether you're listing a game because it sold more, or because it's "better" (?), it's kind of hard for someone to forensically take on a list.

I gave a fair comparison just a few posts up, The general consensus was the competition always performed better in most cases, and when looking further you could claim the competition had higher reviews from critics as well.
 
S

SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
Alex Kidd<<<<< Mario, Mega Man, Metroid, Castlevania, etc.
fair, I agree.
Virtua Fighter<<<<< Tekken, Tobal, Bloody Roar, etc
gty_480064128_74375466.jpg


Daytona, Sega Rally, Metropolis, Crazy Taxi<<<<< Driver, Midnight Club, Ridge Racer, RUSH, Crusin, Need For Speed, Colin Mcrae, Wipeout, Screamer, etc.
iu

this guy just stated mf'kin cruisn is a better game than sega's masterful arcade racers. driver and midnight club are open world and who the f*** even compares wipeout with crazy taxi? lmfao
Shining Force, Phantasy Star, Beyond Oasis<<<<< Secret Series, Star Ocean, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, YS, etc.
fair, but I disagree
Gunstar Heroes<<<<< Contra, Metal Slug, Super Smash TV, etc
fair, but I disagree
Sega GT<<<<< Gran Turismo, Forza, Grand Prix Legends, EA F1, etc.
yeah ill give you that.
House of the Dead, VIrtua Cop<<<<< Time Crisis, Area 51, FMV games, etc.
lol not in a million years. FMV games? this fool is trolling hard.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
if thats your definition of "fair" then I dont want to know what you consider "unfair"

The problem with your above post is you aren't actually reading what I say, you are skimming my posts looking for trigger words that makes your inner fanboy react.

Your response above was based on thinking that I personally though the games on the right side of the <<<<< were subjectively better than Sega games on the left side of them. If you had actually read my post you would know that's not the case. What I actually said was that the games on the right were more successful competition to Segas releases in similar categories not just in reception and sale form the public, but critics as well for the most part.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
We're talking about the Saturn, we all know it failed in comparison to the bigger of its contemporary competing systems, taking any game as an example individually like you've been doing was obviously not going to change the overall result, most naturally sold less, hence the whole system itself sold less. There's literally nothing to discuss on that front if that's really all you're saying and you are not trying to extrapolate success as better quality (which would be absurd so good on you if that was just a misunderstanding). People are just saying that unlike the OP's premise it had great games in varying genres, so the reason wasn't a lack of games or a focus on a specific type of game, it offered pretty much everything (and yes, eventually things did slow down and grind to a halt given its lack of success, especially in the West). That in the end these (great) games failed to attract the same sort of attention as the PlayStation is an undisputed fact so if you really aren't saying that competing games were actually better (sales are rarely about quality anyway, otherwise everyone here would agree Wii was the best ever home console as it sold both hardware and software - contrary to popular belief it had a great attach rate - in spades), again, for the nth time, we all know Saturn didn't do particularly great even if it was the best selling SEGA system in Japan so if that's all you're repeating yourself then a) nobody tried to prove that wrong so what are you arguing against so heated and b) you've been adding nothing to the discussion about it hence people's confusion about your point (edit: lol, no misunderstanding as seen below then).
 
Last edited:
S

SpongebobSquaredance

Unconfirmed Member
What I actually said was that the games on the right were more successful competition
more like
Sega games were sub-par when compared to the competition.
then you went on and said that the competition had better games. in terms of sales, yes. they did. if that makes you happy I'll give you that. yet fair this is certainly not.
but critics as well for the most part.
 
I gave a fair comparison just a few posts up, The general consensus was the competition always performed better in most cases, and when looking further you could claim the competition had higher reviews from critics as well.

That's interesting, because some of your comparisons are flat out misaligned and indicate your lack of understanding what game genres and sub-genres are.

Alex Kidd<<<<< Mario, Mega Man, Metroid, Castlevania, etc.

The only fair comparison here is Mario. Mega Man is an action-platformer with heavy emphasis on weapons-based action, the Alex Kidd games are not designed this way. Metroid is similar but also focuses on exploration. Again, the Alex Kidd (as well as the Mario games, at least to a large extent) are not designed with this type of structure in mind or as a goal. Castlevania, similarly, is an action-platformer with a focus on macabre themes and melee-based weapons...I don't need to repeat myself again.

Virtua Fighter<<<<< Tekken, Tobal, Bloody Roar, etc

I need remind you that the original Tekken was, in terms of mechanics, actually a VERY simple game and lacked a lot of the depth of Virtua Fighter. Plus by the time it came out, it was actually up against Virtua Fighter 2, a game with even more depth than its predecessor. Additionally while the character designs in the original Tekken were "unique", they were mocked by a good number even at the time, and look straight up cheesy today. The Virtua Fighter character designs are plain (almost to a fault), but they have a more timeless design.

Tobal was a very different type of fighter; it used a basic Punch/Kick/Block system similar to VF (as well as Zero Divide, an underrated series of fighters from that gen IMHO), but again, was very simplified and provided less nuance. It was also designed specifically for the console market, unlike VF and Tekken, and it's arguable part of the reason it did not see an arcade release is because in terms of mechanical depth and movelists, it would not have fared very well against more robust competition. Tobal, therefore, has more in common with "anime fighters" like the various DBZ (and later Naruto) style games; they aren't trying to provide robust competitive gameplay the way VF, Tekken, or SF did.

Bloody Roar? The series has a bit of a cult following, but there's a reason it is not played regularly at FGC events this day and age like the latest Tekken and several of the VF games are. The Bloody Roar games basically used beast transformations as a gimmick; it was appealing and a cool hook in the first couple of games but the series hit a wall by the time even the 3rd game came out. It has more in common with Tobal in the fact that it did not aim to have a lot of depth. I suppose, one could call it a more refined style of fighter that Battle Arena Toshinden traded its moment of fame off of.

In any case, due to a lot of those differences, the only valid comparison here is Tekken, and it's arguable that Tekken did not start to reach near the depth of VF2 (let alone VF3) until Tekken 3's release. And while the series has traditionally done well in the West, in terms of scene presence it wasn't as strong as VF in Japan, and generally has been seen as having lesser depth and game mechanic options/complexity. That perception continues to this day, actually (but I strongly disagree with people who imply Tekken is just a "button mashing fest". It's anything but).

Daytona, Sega Rally, Metropolis, Crazy Taxi<<<<< Driver, Midnight Club, Ridge Racer, RUSH, Crusin, Need For Speed, Colin Mcrae, Wipeout, Screamer, etc.

Again, some of these comparisons make zero sense. Driver was a pseudo-GTA style game and (arguably) laid the groundwork for GTAIII just as much as GTA 1 and II did. It aims for a completely different vibe and atmosphere than an arcade racer like Daytona or Metropolis, even. Midnight Club was not a contemporary release to the items on the left of that comparison, coming just a bit afterwards. It has its own flair and there are people who could perfectly prefer it for that just as those who wouldn't prefer it for that very same flair.

Cruisn' only really had a notable limelight with the original arcade game and that was partly because it ran on hardware people thought the N64 would go on to use. Of course, that didn't end up happening. Its performance in arcades was pretty decent but Ridge Racer and especially Daytona reviewed much more strongly and were bigger draws to boot. Cruisn's N64 port was seen as dated even at the time it came out, and was not a fully accurate port of the arcade game, either. The later Cruisn' games never really captured attention in the same way the original did, and the series' reputation is generally one of a fun & cheesy arcade racing franchise.

Need for Speed is a bit of an odd one because, for starters, the Saturn did get a port of the original, and also the fact that a lot of the later NFS games went in a very different direction from a lot of the games on the left of your comparison. I think the last NFS game that really "felt" like classic NFS was Hot Pursuit 2; after that the series chased the nightracing import car scene popularized by Fast n' Furious, and seldom returned to the more wholesome style of the earlier titles.

I have zero way in seeing how Wipeout is a similar type of racer to Daytona, Metropolis etc. to be compared to them. It's a futuristic-themed scifi-style racing game, again going for a completely different vibe and angle than the others. It's more closely related to F-Zero and Extreme-G. Screamer? That is a fun little racing series, but was PC-only, and in terms of racing mechanics or physics does not really reach the heights of something like Daytona, Sega Rally, or Ridge Racer, which were seen as the cream of the crop of arcade racers for the '90s. It's arguable how much of that vibe Screamer was aiming for, but it holds up better to second-tier arcade-style racers like some of Jaleco's late '90s 3D racers, the Cruisn' series, etc.

Shining Force, Phantasy Star, Beyond Oasis<<<<< Secret Series, Star Ocean, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, YS, etc.

This one feels like you leaning very strongly on ad populm fallacy-style arguments, and/or personal/anecdotal perspective. Generally not a good idea. Realistically speaking, nothing approached the popularity of FF or DQ in those days (including various other JRPGs from other developers), so it is a bit fruitless to use their popularity alone as a means to imply the items on the left were not good. Popularity does not wholly correlate to quality, especially in an industry where marketing and advertising (and nostalgia) comprises SO MUCH of the contributing factors to a product's success or failure.

Which of these games people prefer is ultimately down to their preferences and subjective tastes, but it's worth noting that the Shining and Phantasy Star games received very good reviews from critics at the time, and are still regularly discussed and played for a reason. Same with the YS games, but using your flawed rhetoric for a moment, by the measures of popularity, the YS games would be judged as worst than any of the others in your comparison. Which just goes to show the inherent flaws in using ad populum fallacy (or similar) argument points.

Gunstar Heroes<<<<< Contra, Metal Slug, Super Smash TV, etc.

Again, this is something that reeks of ad populum on your end. Gunstar was made by ex-Konami staff, and seen by many as an excellent run-and-gunner. It reviewed quite strongly, but had limited distribution partly due to Treasure being such a small developer (they likely were not able to order a great deal of cartridges). It's seen as one of the best games of the generation, and for good reason, and sits in great company with the best Contra and Metal Slug releases, while featuring game design concepts very unique unto itself.

Why is Super Smash TV in this comparison? It is, again, a VERY different type of action-shooter, with more in common with Robotron 2084. Arena-based, single-screen action shooters with virtually no emphasis on platforming. That doesn't sound like any of the other games in your comparison, does it? By the same token, it isn't AIMING to be like them, either. That's something you should really try to remember.

Sega GT<<<<< Gran Turismo, Forza, Grand Prix Legends, EA F1, etc.

This is probably one of your fairer comparisons and I think most would agree Gran Turismo and Forza outstrip Sega GT in terms of game mechanic refinement and the such (even if both Sega GT and Forza shit on Gran Turismo 1 and 2 in terms of graphics; if you meant GT3, you should've specified). The other ones are up for debate, the EA one in particular, as EA developed/published a few mediocre F1 racers during both 5th gen and 6th gen.

House of the Dead, VIrtua Cop<<<<< Time Crisis, Area 51, FMV games, etc.

If you're going to ignore sub-genre classifications in your comparisons, at least keep it consistent. Virtua Cop - Time Crisis is a fair comparison, but which one would be considered better comes down to the preference of the player. They both make some different aims in terms of game mechanics to set themselves apart, but the general consensus tends to side slightly with the Virtua Cop series in those comparisons.

Area 51 would be more comparable to HOTD, maybe? I've never seen them as that comparable other than both being light gun shooters. In terms of visuals, HOTD certainly holds up better as it isn't using digitized sprites for the enemies. Also, Area 51 uses prerendered 3D backgrounds as video footage (or some variant of that), which is a pretty clever choice for a game in a genre known for being on-rails. However, that can also impact the feel of verisimilitude in the player's soaking of the game world, at least the way Area 51 does it (and that's mainly down to the digitized sprite approach).

Even so, one's an alien invasion/military combat brigade themed shooter and the other is a macabre zombie horror themed shooter; in terms of things like music, dialog, atmosphere, character and enemy design, story bits etc. they're going to naturally deviate greatly. In other words, there's no reason a sensible player can't appreciate them both.

...and, uh, what FMV light-gun shooters are in this comparison of yours? In terms of actual game quality there's not a single one that holds up to any of the other games you listed. I'm also very certain there are none that have earned anywhere near the revenue or sales numbers as the games in your own comparison, as well. The fact it's listed here at all, like another person mentioned, feels like a complete troll move.

----

If there's one last thing to note of, it's your seemingly insulting/standoffish/antagonistic tone. Not to anyone in the thread, really (at least from what I've noticed), but to the topic itself. I've noticed that people who respond in these kind of topics the way you and the OP do, generally had at least some type of connection with these things in the past (whether personal, financial, or some mix of both), and came out feeling burned or done wrong, having your trust betrayed, etc.

That in itself is okay to feel; a LOT of people felt that way with SEGA inbetween all the add-ons and bad calls with advertising, etc. However, the people who went through that at the time are probably adults now, at least in their late '20s if not older. Part of being an adult means being able to discuss these kind of topics (or any topic, honestly) like an adult. Someone who expresses a difference of opinion in a way that betrays some tinge of pettiness or lingering spite is, frankly, not displaying a great deal of maturity. We've all been hurt or let down in the past but with this topic in particular, enough time's passed to move on from that and to be able to discuss it in a more respectful and well-minded way.

No one really has anything against people who simply don't prefer a style of game, or a particular offering, etc. If they can articulate that like an adult and keep their positions relatively well-reasoned, respectful, on-topic with as much of the wider scene outside of themselves as possible then that at least deserves respect even if you and others see things differently. But bringing up random bits of proposed data or information, in a way belying an antagonistic spirit, and with very little in the way of objective and balanced subjective analysis, shows off a child-like mentality and tendency.

TL;DR: some folks really need to stop thinking this is still a 1992 playground. You're an adult now; whatever your opinions are, at least construct your points with the level of effort and mutual respect/understanding an adult would.

EDIT: It's highly likely you would try to argue I am interpreting your statements/comparisons wrong, but you clearly flavored your initial statements with subjective/personal taste that indicating a viewpoint regarding quality, then backpedaled to imply in terms of sales (which is not even completely accurate itself in a good chunk of the comparisons) instead.

You only did this because @SpongebobSquaredance called out your lack of consistency in your conflicting argumentative points.
 
Last edited:
Sega consoles are the best arcade systems ever made, always has been and always will be. They pushed innovation in the arcades like no other, and for that they will always have my respect. Unfortunately Sega consoles died off with the arcades. But not all is lost, they basically migrated to PC, so PC is basically the new Sega system, however they're only a shell of their former selves... :messenger_crying:
 
Sega games were sub-par when compared to the competition.

Every time they came out with a major product, or helped get one published by partnering with a thirdparty company, the competition had a similar product that was better, more receptive, or was more compelling for various reasons, like having more content. Same thing happened with Atari after the 2600 for home consoles (not computers and Lynx)

Almost every major title they published that wasn't a thrown together mess or a game that targeted a niche intentionally, had a similar game made by the competition that was simply better or more appealing. Not only is this why they have the highest failure rate in the industry, but this is also why Sega focuses so much on the Genesis since their demise when re-releasing their catalog, because it's the only time they had games that you could argue where better. Don't get me started on them trying to copy the competition and failing miserably like with Sega GT.

Alex Kidd<<<<< Mario, Mega Man, Metroid, Castlevania, etc.

Virtua Fighter<<<<< Tekken, Tobal, Bloody Roar, etc

Daytona, Sega Rally, Metropolis, Crazy Taxi<<<<< Driver, Midnight Club, Ridge Racer, RUSH, Crusin, Need For Speed, Colin Mcrae, Wipeout, Screamer, etc.

Shining Force, Phantasy Star, Beyond Oasis<<<<< Secret Series, Star Ocean, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, YS, etc.

Gunstar Heroes<<<<< Contra, Metal Slug, Super Smash TV, etc.

Sega GT<<<<< Gran Turismo, Forza, Grand Prix Legends, EA F1, etc.

House of the Dead, VIrtua Cop<<<<< Time Crisis, Area 51, FMV games, etc.

You can go on and on. I'm not saying every game had a better alternative but most of them did, and if your competition consistently has better options than what your company produces, where do you think the customers will go to?

The reason why Sega released the SegaCD and 32X was to offer something the competition didn't have or to get a head start on the competition. That's it. This isn't a complicated issues.
Gimme some of that shit you smoking because that shot has to be space dust to be as high as your claims.
 
I will give you a first-hand account on the very likely reason why Dreamcast actually died: it was deliberately killed by Microsoft and Xbox. And why is it first hand? Back in the day, I was part of the team which developed Supreme Snowboarding 2 for dreamcast. Then Microsoft came and wanted to give our publisher "a better offer"; ditch the dreamcast and come develop Transworld license for Xbox. And the publisher and my employer took it, much to my grimace. In one GDC party, just before the launch of Xbox, some drunk Microsoft employees actually bragged to me that yes, it was their deliberate tactic to attract away all the third-party developers away from the Dreamcast, as Microsoft knew that it was the games that sold the consoles. And the rest is history. It probably does not come as news to you that even to this day, I have very little love for Xbox.

Now do with this information what you will.

I can totally believe this as being true. Bernie Stolar hired Peter Moore to be president od SOA and COO of the company. Peter Moore jumped ship from Sega after the Dreamcast was discontinued to work for Microsoft as president of the Xbox division in 2003. Microsoft basically used the Dreamcast as testing grounds for their own Xbox console. The Dreamcast had that "designed for Microsoft CE" logo on the front of each console, Microsoft took what Sega was doing with online and advanced it further. The Xbox gamepad was based on the Dreamcast gamepad. Sega released many exclusives on the original Xbox, after the discontinuation of the Dreamcast.

Microsoft really wanted to get into the gaming market in the early 2000's and they were going to do it by either buying out another console developer, or by forcing their way into the market with their eternal deep pockets. They took the later route in the end.
 
Virtua Fighter<<<<< Tekken, Tobal, Bloody Roar, etc

The original Virtua Fighter always felt more like a novelty to me, even though it does have its fans. It was technically one of the first of its type when it was released on Model 1 hardware in arcades in 1992. But Virtua Fighter 2 is one of the best 3D fighters of that generation, IMO. Virtua Fighter 2 was also the best selling game on the Sega Saturn, interestingly enough. Especially in Japan were it sold the most copies. Virtua Fighter 3, 4 and 5 are all fantastic games as well.

Sega actually did develop a lot of good 3D fighters back in the 90's. Fighting Vipers was an interesting armor based fighting game, Last Bronx is a great weapon's based fighter. The Sega Saturn has a strong line up of 3D fighters as well, though the majority of them were ports of arcade games.

Tekken's development team was actually made up of former AM2 employees who worked on the original Virtua Fighter. Though, Namco also did release some great 3D fighters of their own.
 
Last edited:

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
When I played fighting games back then, SF and Tekken were way better than VF.

VF was boring, predictable, and hardly any moves per character.

When I got a PS1 and played Tekken 2 for the first time (never played Tekken 1) I was blown away. So many characters and harder hitting moves.
 
When I played fighting games back then, SF and Tekken were way better than VF.

VF was boring, predictable, and hardly any moves per character.

When I got a PS1 and played Tekken 2 for the first time (never played Tekken 1) I was blown away. So many characters and harder hitting moves.
Tekken was the flashy mashy version of the zen that was virtia fighter 2. But vf2 still demolished tekken in that era. And 3? Holy shit that model 3 really had the arcade feel!
 
When I played fighting games back then, SF and Tekken were way better than VF.

VF was boring, predictable, and hardly any moves per character.

When I got a PS1 and played Tekken 2 for the first time (never played Tekken 1) I was blown away. So many characters and harder hitting moves.

I'll be honest; at that time as a kid and young teen, Tekken always appealed to me more. It was the flashier game by far and I remember being at a friend's house and they were playing Tekken 2. It floored me, and when I got Tekken 3 years later that was pretty much THE fighting game I played for a very long time, more than any other fighter.

But since I've gotten older, and began digging into fighters I missed back in the '90s when I was just getting into gaming at that time, and I have come to appreciate games like VF a hell of a lot more. Looking into them more keenly I can see why VF2 and the later games are so well-revered. I can see all the depth and nuance in those games now, and I think coming across all those Japanese pro players and watching their matches really opened me up to seeing how technical and in-depth (as well as hard-hitting and flowing) the combat is when you're skilled enough to actually execute that stuff.

Ironically, being open to seeing that stuff also helped me realize how deep the Tekken games actually were, too. And that the criticisms some hold against them (button mashers, 10-hit chain combos LOL, etc.) are unearned and probably from players who are similarly uninformed about that series's high level play as some are about Virtua Fighter's.

So nowadays, my general opinions are: I see Tekken as being the more stylish of the two (slicker character designs, cooler soundtracks/OSTs) and more/fun bonus content/time-waster stuff (Tekken Force, Tekken Ball, Bowling etc.), and (generally) more stylish/exaggerated moves, but Virtua Fighter has the deeper fighting engine, better game balance, better visuals (on technical grounds) and it also seems its competitive scene is more varied (I see quite a few Japanese tournaments for VF2, 3, 4, and 5, but hardly see any for the older Tekken games). And it's got some hard-hitting moves of its own, but they're grounded more in realism.

I'd probably look into learning VF3 and (re-learning) Tekken 3 in the near future.
 
Console Wars? That book was basically the story about one person. It's a very one-sided story full of inconsistencies and inaccuracies. Tom Kalinske is one hell of a bitter person, that cannot face the slightest criticism for his incompetent leadership during the mid-90s.

Team Andromeda Team Andromeda and I commented on this already, but read for yourself here:

SEGAbits forum
SEGA-16 forum: Is Tom Kalinske full of it?
SEGA-16 forum: Tom Kalinske: Sega's Been Doing It Wrong for Past 20 Years!

Tom did a lot of good; Like standing up to Japan and making Sonic a pack in, setting up the STI and looking to get the best talent In-House at SEGA America and he also knew how to sell Sonic and also SOA did a far better job with the Mega CD and made into a great system
But I hate his spin and likes over being able to work with SONY, how Japan and Sega America never got on or how the 32X was forced on him and he wasn't allowed to keep the Mega Drive going longer

Rather than just came out and say he made a bad call with the 32X push. Many thought it was a great idea at the time and the price point seemed great but it was a horrible call and cost SEGA dear.
 

cireza

Banned
When I got a PS1 and played Tekken 2 for the first time (never played Tekken 1) I was blown away. So many characters and harder hitting moves.
This is a great testimony of Sony's success at marketing.

In the real world, Tekken movesets are only a fraction of what Virtua Fighter offers.
 
Last edited:

FranXico

Member
I will give you a first-hand account on the very likely reason why Dreamcast actually died: it was deliberately killed by Microsoft and Xbox. And why is it first hand? Back in the day, I was part of the team which developed Supreme Snowboarding 2 for dreamcast. Then Microsoft came and wanted to give our publisher "a better offer"; ditch the dreamcast and come develop Transworld license for Xbox. And the publisher and my employer took it, much to my grimace. In one GDC party, just before the launch of Xbox, some drunk Microsoft employees actually bragged to me that yes, it was their deliberate tactic to attract away all the third-party developers away from the Dreamcast, as Microsoft knew that it was the games that sold the consoles. And the rest is history. It probably does not come as news to you that even to this day, I have very little love for Xbox.

Now do with this information what you will.
That certainly aligns with MS almost buying SEGA later on, no big surprise there.
But people still foolishly blame Sony for the demise of SEGA.
 
What you call 'fad' I call creativity, passion, ambition, love, genius, inovation, uniqueness.

Sega wouldnt be the Sega we know and love without being like that.

If you use less harsh words and concepts and say something like Sega should have balanced their more groundbreaking and special games with more commercial titles? Yeah, sure, would have made perfect sense and work out for them much better, business wise, in the long run.

Yet, it seems we could only get one or the other.

Thank god Sega choose the former.

Damn, I miss the gaming spirit of the Dreamcast.

Every new game could be something truly new, inventive, outlandish and outlandishly good.

A much more 'eventful' era of gaming.
 

CJArcadeGuy

Neo Member
Well for one SEGA still exists making hundreds of billions per year. I for one think of them as a great innovator with games that don't translate very well if at all to anything outside of an arcade. Like their "Heli-Shooter" from 1977. And "Killer Shark" from 1972. In my mind when a company can get their games from the arcade to a console faithfully with all the same graphics and animation and gameplay. They have just doubled their audience of gamers that they can sell future games to. There are plenty of fantastic console games that were either direct descendants of arcade games or developed for both the arcade and consoles. Nintendo did this very well as have arcade game companies such as RAW Thrills who have done the opposite developing games for consoles like Nex Machina and Arcade Games like Moto-GP in 2015 and then for PC. Sure arcade games translate much better to all the ways you can play games these days. Especially to PC's with steering wheels for example to play driving games. Companies such as SEGA have several franchises complete with cuddly charismatic characters. Can you say SONIC the hedgehog. Who is featured in dozens of games both in the arcades and on every console. In 2020 they made a full motion picture with Tom Cruise. That I have seen and laughed out loud several dozen times during the show. Sonic is a perfect example as what can be done with a character these days. Sure Sonic started humbly in SEGA's arcade games. And has translated to toys and statues and film.
 

Celine

Member
Man this thread is a disaster, just everyone is wrong and it's all haters vs. fools that are drunk by nostalgia, and we are seeing the same old talking points over and over again.

As much as the OP doesn't want it to, this is just another thread indirectly asking why Sega failed and while OP offers a unique perspective, it's also wrong.

It's baffling to see Sega threads end up the same. There is an actual objective answer to why Sega failed and that's because Sega was never a competitor in the video game industry until Sega of America started gaining too much power and Sega of Japan followed. Being aggressively competitive basically shattered the original business model of the company. Long post ahead.

When you look at Segas business structure before 1990 they were a passive gaming company. They would have 3 tiers of arcade machines, an entry level machine, which offered fun cheap games, a standard tier, which is what most arcade games looked like graphically at the time, and a Pro tier which would produce their most graphically intensive software

Segas game consoles were sold as just a central hub to have access to many of their games and wouldn't sell much more than 10-20 million units a pop. That was the plan.

Their business model was based on SoA, SoJ, and SoE, having some power to adapt to market conditions. But that was the jest of it. They were balanced entities that drew off each other.

The business model split three ways, Arcade revenue, Console revenue, and popular hits would be ported on almost any machine that could play games for additional profit. That was Segas company structure and business model.

The only time Sega was really competitive was a few small jabs at Nintendo in japan, which they eventually scaled back. Notice that until they started dialing it back in 1990 Sega was frequently publishing games on several gaming systems other than Nintendo? Even the PC Engine?

That was all part of Segas business model and company structure. They were an arcade company that would have a console just as an option to have access to their games and games from partners. Big hits would be ported on nearly every system for additional funding. All 3 branches of Sega were balanced with equal power and a shared budget plan to lift the company as a whole.

What changed? In 1990 Sega of America increased the stakes and tried to make Sega much more competitive in the video game market, an area Sega was not heavily competing in because they were focused primarily on the arcade market, two different markets.

As Sega of America picked up the pace, Sega of America gained more power, and once they 1991 came they suddenly had a game to take advantage of their new ambitions, Sonic the Hedgehog. A game they used to launch the Genesis platform as a major competitor that would become the next big thing. Sonic became a huge household name, and it was also given away for free.

Sega of Europe would follow suit and you'd see similar influence in other areas. Sega of America was running on its own as a separate company. When you view it logically it makes sense why Sega of Japan was pissed. The problem was that Sega of Americas strategy worked, and Sega of Japan decided to be competitive as well BUT knock Sega of America down a peg as well.

This is where Segas death had its beginning. Sega as a whole, arguably made not a single dime from 1991 to the Dreamcast discontinuation because suddenly Sega was spending more than what they were bringing in across the entire company.

Due to the competitive nature, more money on ads were spend, more money on games were spend, more reactionary moves were made, more discontinuing unsuccessful products occurred without playing the long game.

When you look at the Sega CD for example, it was supposed to be an option that would attract software and make profit overtime. Instead the Sega CD became a product that was dropped once it stopped making the amount of money Sega wanted it to make. The 32X was the same, it was greenlit to make the Genesis more competitive against upcoming consoles and after the launch excitement dissipated and the money dried up the 32X was dropped and they decided to focus everything on the Saturn. The Game Gear was also an attempt to jump in and compete in a market.

The Saturn was supposed to be a 2D beast with some great 3D capabilities but nothing to crazy. They decided that they had to try and make the Saturn compete with Sony so slapped in hardware that made programming more complicated. Once it became clear Sega may have had a chance in Japan, Sega of Japan basically took complete control of the system ultimately failing to sell what Sega of Japan hoped for.

Sega of Japan also decided to change their old arcade strategy and decided to try competing to be the best their as well. More chaos.

The Dreamcast was launched when Sega had both their arms cut off. They created a system that NEEDED to sell a certain amount to make a profit, so they decided to gamble on an expensive idea, online. This was done to attract more players to buy Dreamcast consoles even if they never used the feature itself. The Idea was if Sega could sell a certain amount of Dreamcasts than the company could become competitive again. But Sega wasn't able to pull it off.

Here's what I think the timeline would have been if Sega of America didn't break the companies managing structure.

1990: Maybe a few jabs at Nintendo from SoA, but no power hungry elite trying to make the Genesis the next big thing.
1991: Sonic comes out helps with sales, several arcade ports do better with balanced advertising. The Arcades are still ranking in dough. Likely don't release the gamegear since they aren't as competitive. We would have still seen many Sega games on toher consoles.
1992: Sega CD comes out as an option, courts developers and places some cool ports on it. Likely would end up selling more than it had now since they would have it out on shelves longer playing the long game.
1993: More games than ever before due to balanced game marketing, Genesis would likely end up selling the same or near the same in the end without the unnecessary spending.
1994: Since Sega would be more passive they would not react tot he Jaguar with the 32x.
1995: Since Sega would be more passive, they would not react to the PS1, and the console would release cheaper as a result. No sudden launch. Balanced marketing over many original games and cool arcade ports. No focus on software titles trying to compete with PS1 directly. Likely would sell much more in the US and Japan than it did in the real world.
1996: Growing library, cheaper price, less competitive arcade division adding to profits, no failed attempts at more portable consoles would save on R&D.
1997: Continue from 1996.
1998: Since Sega wouldn't need to replace the Saturn to stop bleeding in this timeline the Dreamcast likely wouldn't come out until 1999 or 2000 and the online gimmick may bot have happened or had limited in functionality.
1999: Possible Dreamcast launch.
2000: Possible Dreamcast launch, due to technology advances it would still have a pretty powerful consoles for cheap. Arcades would be dying but profitable, and a switch to more original titles on the Dreamcast with balanced marketing. No abrupt discontinuation.
2005: Dreamcast 2

People don't understand that what arguably brought Sega to many homes aggressively, and made Sonic a household name, is what killed Sega.

Sega went from having a balanced model between branches and hardware making tons of profit, to one branch becoming too powerful and influencing the others to try really hard to be #1, even if their business structure didn't support it or the fact they did not have the money to trade hits with anyone.

I would not be surprised if the old sayings are true and Sega as a whole did not make a dime after 1991. When you look at the few financial reports we have access to they are combining sectors or omitting sectors, we never have an idea if the whole company is making or losing money, just that some areas would lose money and some would claim to make money. But anything that would tell us overall profit for the company entirely was always sidelined.

To be short, Sega didn't know how to run a competitive company and their business structure wasn't made to do so. They decided to trade hits with people that not only had more money, but had companies designed from the top down to compete in the market that Sega wasn't even primarily in. This competitive nature then spread across all branches in nearly all countries they operated in and later in the arcade industry, which was their focus.

When you suddenly start spending triple the amount on ads and software while making pointless R&D decisions, it makes perfect sense why Sega wasn't able to stick around. One of the reasons why Sega of America was able to gain that much power was because it wasn't expected. Sega of Japan had no regulations placed on anyone. No wonder they were pissed.

Sure their retaliation was very dumb and petty, but at least I can see why they were pissed.
Yours is a good post, you are looking at the events with a business perspective which is quite rare.
You are correct to state that Sega was ill-equipped to compete with big rivals in the console business in the long run (it was a mismanaged company with less resources than other rivals) and that the success they attained during the Mega Drive/Genesis made them commit excessive bets later on in an attempt to keep to be competitive at all costs which only accelerated the end of Sega as the company it was known until that point.
However what I think miss from your post is the context under which Sega operated which was rapidly changing.
Once Sony successfully established the model that relied on getting more third-party support and faster than anybody else to achieve a globally popular console, the writing was on the wall for all the videogame companies that had a console division.
Such companies relied on the strength of their in-house software to generate the momentum that would attract third-party support however that business model became obsolete against mega corporations like Sony and Microsoft that, by virtue of being far more resourceful, would always had the upper hand in attracting third-party support compared to relatively little companies like Nintendo, Sega and the others.
Software publishers were more favourable to work for platforms managed by mega corps like Sony and Microsoft than for platforms owned by other software publishers (which exercised strict control because they wanted to be best software publisher in the world).
The other variable you haven't cited was the costs were constantly going up.
I'm talking about the costs to develop software but also the costs a console manufacturer incur when launching a console and compete with other rival companies.
That's why I disagree with your idea that a more modest Sega would have lasted much longer.
They would have lost less money sure but you cannot expect a console owner to be profitable and competitive when you aim for a install base of 10 million users.
It's too small and costs keep raising.
A Sega Saturn with weaker 3D performance would have sold even less than what the actually Saturn measly sold in US.
Just a quick glance at the best selling software for that generation of consoles in US would reveal that all those games had polygonal graphics, that's what the market was demanding.

Now the obvious question after what I've written would be:
If the console division of videogame companies were destined to go extinct due to the industry consolidation toward platforms managed by mega corporations like Microsoft and Sony, why did Nintendo not only survived but struck success in the meantime?
To summarize in short Nintendo's management was smart enough to use their monopolistic position during the NES days to shape up the company (in the '90s) to be resilient to changing marked conditions (fiscally savvy, aving billions of dollars of cash on hand, never selling hardware at loss by cutting features if needed) and to be as less dependent as possible on third-party support by creating and well managing a stable of popular in-house franchises and by pursuing the creation of fun genre kings (game franchise that create a genre or subgenre and that maintain their relevancy over other copycats and with due time they became uncontested) that could be iterated generation after generation and in then process sustain the company.
If you look at the best selling software for the popular Switch all of them are published by Nintendo and most of those games have roots that could be trace back directly to the '90s or '80s.
However even with those precious assets Nintendo would have been destined to left the business sooner or latter because no matter how good their games are they cannot match the variety brought out by all the third-party publishers and the risk would be to release a new console (which is a very risky and costly venture) that catered exclusively to a small niche of Nintendo faithfuls.
What changed Nintendo trajectory was understanding that if it was impossible for Nintendo to attract the same level of third-party support as Sony and Microsoft because it wasn't in their DNA, at the same time Sony and Microsoft could not compete with Nintendo when it comes to unconventional hardware designs that create some kind of value for a broad slice of consumers (being unique just for the sake of being unique doesn't pay off and would be just a hindrance down the road because the unique features have an impact on the production costs of the console).
These unique selling points would then be sustained/justified by Nintendo popular first-party software which in turn, if the concept behind the console is sound and thus become popular, would broke off from just the Nintendo's core fans and reach more casual users (with game sales that could achieve 10M+/20M+) .

Sega really never got the skill to produce first-party games as strong as Nintendo (in term of popularity), nor the financial muscles or the business acumen to survive the way Nintendo did.

I would not be surprised if the old sayings are true and Sega as a whole did not make a dime after 1991. When you look at the few financial reports we have access to they are combining sectors or omitting sectors, we never have an idea if the whole company is making or losing money, just that some areas would lose money and some would claim to make money. But anything that would tell us overall profit for the company entirely was always sidelined.
It's not that they removed sectors from their IR is that before 1999 (or was it 2000) Sega presented non-consolidated financial reports meaning that the results were only pertaining the parent company Sega Entertainment and not the subsidiaries (for example the losses incurred by Sega of America during the whole Saturn era were written down only in 1998).

Here a couple graphs that may interest you:
pgDo7lQ.png


a3jqNGW.png
 

Celine

Member
Oh I just want to add to the conversation in the first page that while it's true that arcade game ports on consoles were losing popularity around 2000, Crazy Taxi was however one of the last arcade game to enjoy high popularity even on consoles.
First on Dreamcast (third best selling game on the console in US) and later on other consoles (in particular on PS2 for obvious reasons).
Even funnier Simpson Road Rage, which was a shameless Crazy Taxi rip off with a coat of Simpson, sold even better (million seller on PS2 and good sales on GBA, Xbox, GC).
In the end Sega sued Fox/EA, the case was settled in private for an undisclosed amount in favour of Sega.
 
It's hard to put it into words, but if you look at some of the games that Sega marketed on the Saturn and the Dreamcast, many of them were based on their arcade hits. This isn't too much of an issue, the PlaySation and the N64 had plenty of arcade based games.

The issue is that Segas games felt very, shallow and lacking in substance to the average consumer, even gamer centric ones, after an initial period.

For example Virtual-On:



It's a good looking arcade game, and the concept is interesting, but there's basically no substance here. Is this a game were you would pay hundreds of dollars for a Saturn and $50-$60 for this game? Especially given how mindless the gameplay is and how short the matches are? Why would I pick this over several other games on competing systems? Sure, it would look great at the local arcade and friends would gather around it but that would last a couple weeks at best.

You also have to consider that this game would get a massive downgrade on the Saturn and would look worse than some of the worse early PSX games which many people complain about today. As shown below:



You can use the same arguments for several other Saturn games to varying degrees such as many of their arcade sports games, Virtua Cop, House of the Dead, Fighting Vipers, and others, even with some of the exclusive Saturn games not form the arcade but are in the style of arcade games.

When you move to the Dreamcast you face a very similar issue.

Sonic Adventure which wasn't based on an arcade game, was popular and there was excitement but that declined after the honeymoon period for both consumers and gaming journalists which trashed it and it's sequel years later. The best selling game on the console.

You have another good looking Virtual On with Tangem which has the same issues as the first one. Actually, maybe worse.

While there's a loud niche base, Shenmue was basically a tech demo for almost every other gamer and casual, and eve some reviewers remarked on that.

Sega Bass was a very fadish game for a shot-time.

Daytona 2, sequel to popular arcade original, limited fanfare.

And this seems to be specifically a Sega issue. When you look at arcade ports on the PSX, the N64, and even the 3DO, and those exclusive games that are in the arcade-style but not ports, more consumers wanted to play those at home then any of these Sega games on average. People didn't see any reason to justify paying $50-$60 and in some cases $40 for several of these Sega hits, which many of them Sega invested a lot of money in.

So the question becomes what's wrong with Segas arcade games? Why did people buy those arcade port and arcade style-games from various companies on the PSX/N64/3DO and not buy a Saturn or Dreamcast for those games? Why in the US, arguably the Dreamcast strongest country, consumers were they buying improved PSX ports, sports games, and some other titles in various styles, but for a lot of their arcade-style games people were not really buying many of them in large numbers?

And I think the issue is that Sega didn't know how to make a game that would attract long-term attention. I think a lot of their cult catalog today in 2019, in the 90's had a SHORT shelf-life that expired and only seems relevant today by a loud minority cult and emulation.

But when we look at the gaming market in the past we have to ask our self:

1.We have a Sega Saturn on sale by retailer for $150, an extra controller for $30, and the new Virtual-On Cyber Troopers and a free game that we can choose to go with it due to a Buy one get one free promotion.

2.A PSX for $200 and having to pay $40 separately for Tekken 2 with no free game promotion. Extra controller $40

3.A newly released N64 for $200 special sale with $50 Cruis'n USA separate purchase, Extra controller for $50.

On paper the Saturn looks like the better deal, and if you looked at trailers you would think that the Saturn free pack-in game may be the best of the bunch, while also buying a dual-stick controller thinking it will get more support later one, and as sugar on top you get a free game with your Virtual-On.

Yet nearly no one chose the first option outside a small niche. I feel like there's something about Sega games that have this small window of excitement when they first come out and then they fizzle out.

It's not that they are bad games either, at least some of the games are good, although there are bad ones (hi fighting vipers) but they just never clicked with the average consumer for long-term play.

I feel like this contributed immensely to one of Segas major problems post Genesis, and that's finding more IP's that would really grab the consumers like Sonic did, which was already in decline on the Genesis by the time the Saturn came out. They had some hit titles but those were also short lived. If you can't get people to invest in your hardware long-term it will be hard for you to sell many units.


I said the exact same thing (among other things) in that other sega thread talking about their demise and I got absolutely blasted by the fanboys for having the same thoughts. You are correct though. The industry moved forward and Sega was stuck making games that were meant for 15 minute plays at the arcade.
 
Last edited:

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Yours is a good post, you are looking at the events with a business perspective which is quite rare.
You are correct to state that Sega was ill-equipped to compete with big rivals in the console business in the long run (it was a mismanaged company with less resources than other rivals) and that the success they attained during the Mega Drive/Genesis made them commit excessive bets later on in an attempt to keep to be competitive at all costs which only accelerated the end of Sega as the company it was known until that point.
However what I think miss from your post is the context under which Sega operated which was rapidly changing.
Once Sony successfully established the model that relied on getting more third-party support and faster than anybody else to achieve a globally popular console, the writing was on the wall for all the videogame companies that had a console division.
Such companies relied on the strength of their in-house software to generate the momentum that would attract third-party support however that business model became obsolete against mega corporations like Sony and Microsoft that, by virtue of being far more resourceful, would always had the upper hand in attracting third-party support compared to relatively little companies like Nintendo, Sega and the others.
Software publishers were more favourable to work for platforms managed by mega corps like Sony and Microsoft than for platforms owned by other software publishers (which exercised strict control because they wanted to be best software publisher in the world).
The other variable you haven't cited was the costs were constantly going up.
I'm talking about the costs to develop software but also the costs a console manufacturer incur when launching a console and compete with other rival companies.
That's why I disagree with your idea that a more modest Sega would have lasted much longer.
They would have lost less money sure but you cannot expect a console owner to be profitable and competitive when you aim for a install base of 10 million users.
It's too small and costs keep raising.
A Sega Saturn with weaker 3D performance would have sold even less than what the actually Saturn measly sold in US.
Just a quick glance at the best selling software for that generation of consoles in US would reveal that all those games had polygonal graphics, that's what the market was demanding.

Now the obvious question after what I've written would be:
If the console division of videogame companies were destined to go extinct due to the industry consolidation toward platforms managed by mega corporations like Microsoft and Sony, why did Nintendo not only survived but struck success in the meantime?
To summarize in short Nintendo's management was smart enough to use their monopolistic position during the NES days to shape up the company (in the '90s) to be resilient to changing marked conditions (fiscally savvy, aving billions of dollars of cash on hand, never selling hardware at loss by cutting features if needed) and to be as less dependent as possible on third-party support by creating and well managing a stable of popular in-house franchises and by pursuing the creation of fun genre kings (game franchise that create a genre or subgenre and that maintain their relevancy over other copycats and with due time they became uncontested) that could be iterated generation after generation and in then process sustain the company.
If you look at the best selling software for the popular Switch all of them are published by Nintendo and most of those games have roots that could be trace back directly to the '90s or '80s.
However even with those precious assets Nintendo would have been destined to left the business sooner or latter because no matter how good their games are they cannot match the variety brought out by all the third-party publishers and the risk would be to release a new console (which is a very risky and costly venture) that catered exclusively to a small niche of Nintendo faithfuls.
What changed Nintendo trajectory was understanding that if it was impossible for Nintendo to attract the same level of third-party support as Sony and Microsoft because it wasn't in their DNA, at the same time Sony and Microsoft could not compete with Nintendo when it comes to unconventional hardware designs that create some kind of value for a broad slice of consumers (being unique just for the sake of being unique doesn't pay off and would be just a hindrance down the road because the unique features have an impact on the production costs of the console).
These unique selling points would then be sustained/justified by Nintendo popular first-party software which in turn, if the concept behind the console is sound and thus become popular, would broke off from just the Nintendo's core fans and reach more casual users (with game sales that could achieve 10M+/20M+) .

Sega really never got the skill to produce first-party games as strong as Nintendo (in term of popularity), nor the financial muscles or the business acumen to survive the way Nintendo did.


It's not that they removed sectors from their IR is that before 1999 (or was it 2000) Sega presented non-consolidated financial reports meaning that the results were only pertaining the parent company Sega Entertainment and not the subsidiaries (for example the losses incurred by Sega of America during the whole Saturn era were written down only in 1998).

Here a couple graphs that may interest you:
pgDo7lQ.png


a3jqNGW.png
Sega bombed as they never had a great handheld business.

A good chunk of Nintendo sales and profits for 30 years came from handhelds. So when their consoles didn't do great, Gameboys and DS systems did probably 3x what their consoles did.
 
Yours is a good post, you are looking at the events with a business perspective which is quite rare.
You are correct to state that Sega was ill-equipped to compete with big rivals in the console business in the long run (it was a mismanaged company with less resources than other rivals) and that the success they attained during the Mega Drive/Genesis made them commit excessive bets later on in an attempt to keep to be competitive at all costs which only accelerated the end of Sega as the company it was known until that point.
However what I think miss from your post is the context under which Sega operated which was rapidly changing.
Once Sony successfully established the model that relied on getting more third-party support and faster than anybody else to achieve a globally popular console, the writing was on the wall for all the videogame companies that had a console division.
Such companies relied on the strength of their in-house software to generate the momentum that would attract third-party support however that business model became obsolete against mega corporations like Sony and Microsoft that, by virtue of being far more resourceful, would always had the upper hand in attracting third-party support compared to relatively little companies like Nintendo, Sega and the others.
Software publishers were more favourable to work for platforms managed by mega corps like Sony and Microsoft than for platforms owned by other software publishers (which exercised strict control because they wanted to be best software publisher in the world).
The other variable you haven't cited was the costs were constantly going up.
I'm talking about the costs to develop software but also the costs a console manufacturer incur when launching a console and compete with other rival companies.
That's why I disagree with your idea that a more modest Sega would have lasted much longer.
They would have lost less money sure but you cannot expect a console owner to be profitable and competitive when you aim for a install base of 10 million users.
It's too small and costs keep raising.
A Sega Saturn with weaker 3D performance would have sold even less than what the actually Saturn measly sold in US.
Just a quick glance at the best selling software for that generation of consoles in US would reveal that all those games had polygonal graphics, that's what the market was demanding.

Now the obvious question after what I've written would be:
If the console division of videogame companies were destined to go extinct due to the industry consolidation toward platforms managed by mega corporations like Microsoft and Sony, why did Nintendo not only survived but struck success in the meantime?
To summarize in short Nintendo's management was smart enough to use their monopolistic position during the NES days to shape up the company (in the '90s) to be resilient to changing marked conditions (fiscally savvy, aving billions of dollars of cash on hand, never selling hardware at loss by cutting features if needed) and to be as less dependent as possible on third-party support by creating and well managing a stable of popular in-house franchises and by pursuing the creation of fun genre kings (game franchise that create a genre or subgenre and that maintain their relevancy over other copycats and with due time they became uncontested) that could be iterated generation after generation and in then process sustain the company.
If you look at the best selling software for the popular Switch all of them are published by Nintendo and most of those games have roots that could be trace back directly to the '90s or '80s.
However even with those precious assets Nintendo would have been destined to left the business sooner or latter because no matter how good their games are they cannot match the variety brought out by all the third-party publishers and the risk would be to release a new console (which is a very risky and costly venture) that catered exclusively to a small niche of Nintendo faithfuls.
What changed Nintendo trajectory was understanding that if it was impossible for Nintendo to attract the same level of third-party support as Sony and Microsoft because it wasn't in their DNA, at the same time Sony and Microsoft could not compete with Nintendo when it comes to unconventional hardware designs that create some kind of value for a broad slice of consumers (being unique just for the sake of being unique doesn't pay off and would be just a hindrance down the road because the unique features have an impact on the production costs of the console).
These unique selling points would then be sustained/justified by Nintendo popular first-party software which in turn, if the concept behind the console is sound and thus become popular, would broke off from just the Nintendo's core fans and reach more casual users (with game sales that could achieve 10M+/20M+) .

Sega really never got the skill to produce first-party games as strong as Nintendo (in term of popularity), nor the financial muscles or the business acumen to survive the way Nintendo did.


It's not that they removed sectors from their IR is that before 1999 (or was it 2000) Sega presented non-consolidated financial reports meaning that the results were only pertaining the parent company Sega Entertainment and not the subsidiaries (for example the losses incurred by Sega of America during the whole Saturn era were written down only in 1998).

Here a couple graphs that may interest you:
pgDo7lQ.png


a3jqNGW.png

Great post.
 
Top Bottom