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[VGEsoterica]

The Sega Dreamcast went through some real interesting hurdles in its development, having two completely different hardware platforms developed for it (Dural and Katana...nice little nods there) before it finally settled on the hardware spec we got on 9/9/99 (at least in the US)...but it could have been totally different.

Sega Rally on the Sega Model 2 arcade board is just a straight up "perfect game" in my opinion. Just like Sega's success with Daytona USA...Sega Rally set the tone for what an arcade racing game that DIDNT take place on tarmac could feel like. The drifting, the different surfaces you drive on that affect the physics and handling of the vehicles itself, the jumps and tight turns you effortlessly slide your car into and out of...just all 10/10's. Throw in some AMAZING visuals and you have a recipe for straight up video game hall of fame levels of "good".

The visuals were all thanks to Sega's relationship to Lockheed Martin / Martin Marietta, the defense contractor that designed things that go "boom'. The hardware was so successful Sega and Lockheed Martin were developing a successor console to the Saturn

Sadly the Saturn 2 or Lockheed Martin designed console never ended up seeing the light of day.

But that got me thinking GAF....would you have RATHER had a Model 2 based Sega console as Dreamcast? Because I can never decide how I feel about it?

 

[acm2000]

model 2 based console, or one thats trying to reach model 3 levels? i mean its an easy choice.

 

[Stuart360]

Well Dreamcast was more powerful than Model 2, on paper at least.

The problem with Dreamcast was that yes it did get some arcade ports, Sega (stupidly imo) decided early on they didnt want a lot of arcade ports on Dreamcast. And imo that was part of the thing that killed it.

 

[Gp1]

Dreamcast hardware was closer to a home version of the Atomiswave Naomi, so a home model 2 from 93 in 99 would not be that impressive.

 

[Stuart360]

Dreamcast hardware was closer to a home version of the Atomiswave Naomi, so a home model 2 from 93 in 99 would not be that impressive.

Yeah i mean look at Daytona on Dreamcast. I mean i'm a purist and prefer the look of the arcade, but there is no doubt Dreamcast Daytona has higher polygon cars, some better textures, runs at a slightly hiher resolution, and waaay better draw distance.
Dreamcast was actually closer to Model 3 in power than model 2.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Well Dreamcast was more powerful than Model 2, on paper at least.

The problem with Dreamcast was that yes it did get some arcade ports, Sega (stupidly imo) decided early on they didnt want a lot of arcade ports on Dreamcast. And imo that was part of the thing that killed it.

Yes for some wild reason Sega kept the very games that were huge successes and everyone loves from us on Dreamcast

 

[Stuart360]

Yes for some wild reason Sega kept the very games that were huge successes and everyone loves from us on Dreamcast

I mean yes but it is a fact that can be researched that Sega said they didnt want the Dreamcast cluttered with arcade ports. I dont know if it was because it was that point where arcades started dying, but thats what Sega said.

And like i said we did get some arcade ports, but there are a LOT of arcade games from that era that never came to Dreamcast (Daytona 2 probably the standout), and IMO that was a mistake by Sega. Those ports could of been something that made it different than PS2.

 

[Gp1]

Yeah i mean look at Daytona on Dreamcast. I mean i'm a purist and prefer the look of the arcade, but there is no doubt Dreamcast Daytona has higher polygon cars, some better textures, runs at a slightly hiher resolution, and waaay better draw distance.
Dreamcast was actually closer to Model 3 in power than model 2.

I'm not a hardware expert but from what I read i would date to say that the Dreamcast and the Naomi were be more powerful and specially easier to develop that the Model 3 step 1

 

[Dane]

Model 3 was too expensive and didn't make the same splash and support like Model 2 did. Eventually they decided to go with NEC and 3DFX for the Katana and Black Belt, Katana prevailed as it was considered a more powerful hardware at much lower cost and could be used in arcades as Naomi.

Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast for all I know had framerate issues that weren't in the arcade version, it was also rushed the hell out to make it for the DC launch with two teams at different working hours to make it for the launch day, in the end they still had to delay the japanese release by three months. Most Model 3 games weren't available due to licensing and lack of interest.

 

[Henry Panic]

Gotta get those clicks with car salesmen thread titles.

 

[VGEsoterica]

I'm not a hardware expert but from what I read i would date to say that the Dreamcast and the Naomi were be more powerful and specially easier to develop that the Model 3 step 1

It was more powerful on some ways, lesser in others. It was kind of a push IMO

 

[Chupanibre]

Gotta get those clicks with car salesmen thread titles.

Shoe salesman. Get it right.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

A Dreamcast at Model 2 tier would have been way too weak for 6th gen; FWIW the Panasonic M2 was basically something between N64 and Model 2 in terms of graphics, and that was aiming for a 1996 release before it got cancelled.

The Dreamcast we actually got is mostly around Model 3 level; it's better than Model 3 in some areas but IIRC a tad less in a couple of others but generally Sega were targeting Model 3 performance in a home console with Dreamcast and they pretty much got that.

I mean yes but it is a fact that can be researched that Sega said they didnt want the Dreamcast cluttered with arcade ports. I dont know if it was because it was that point where arcades started dying, but thats what Sega said.

And like i said we did get some arcade ports, but there are a LOT of arcade games from that era that never came to Dreamcast (Daytona 2 probably the standout), and IMO that was a mistake by Sega. Those ports could of been something that made it different than PS2.

Sega wanted to distance themselves from being considered "simply" an arcade port console maker, so they started emphasizing more original productions for Dreamcast. They had actually been doing that with Saturn as well, but their reputation among the mainstream was still very much as an arcade company, and FWIW a lot of their biggest Saturn pushes were ports of Model 2 arcade games.

It's probably the reason they went so ham on Shenmue they way they did. FWIW I think they would have been best-off with a middle-road approach. Take arcade games and bring them home, but put A LOT more content into the home versions. They should have taken more lessons from Namco and Capcom in that regard, who were adding tons of home-specific content to their arcade ports to increase playtime and perceived value. Sega generally did not do this, not to anywhere the degree those companies did and not as frequently.

Ports like the Virtua Racing Saturn edition, should've became the norm for Sega arcade ports to home consoles during Saturn & Dreamcast eras in terms of extra content. But usually you got much less.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Maybe it was for the best given Model 2 was quad based and had no hardware support for 3D transparencies. All reasons to hate on Saturn

 

[cyberheater]

Still salty about the Sega Rally port we got on Dreamcast. I was so disappointed.
I remember very vaguely that it might have been something to do with MS CE but probably remembering wrong.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Shoe salesman. Get it right.

Polk High football star actually

 

[RAIDEN1]

This was a time when gaming was at its most interesting point, Sega, Namco, Sony, Nintendo, M2, et all, Sega working with top tier talent like Lockheed Martin......

 

[Alexios]

Dreamcast hardware was closer to a home version of the Atomiswave Naomi, so a home model 2 from 93 in 99 would not be that impressive.

Atomiswave and Naomi are different things, Atomiswave came much later and is essentially a cartridge based Dreamcast for use in cheap arcade machines, Naomi is beefed up in various ways in comparison as it was a little more premium (but not like Hikaru and it got both cartridge and gd rom versions). All Atomiswave games have been converted to work with regular Dreamcast machines by a fan, that's impossible for Naomi games that require actual porting with the source code and potential graphical and other changes (ie the much more obvious LOD pop in seen in 18 Wheeler) to accomodate the somewhat inferior specifications of the Dreamcast (though some games were ported 1:1 - or very close to it with hard to perceive downgraded textures and what not - that only means they didn't push Naomi to its fullest - Naomi 2 is of course also different & more powerful).

 

[nkarafo]

I'm not a hardware expert but from what I read i would date to say that the Dreamcast and the Naomi were be more powerful and specially easier to develop that the Model 3 step 1

Model 3, even step 1, has more brute force power than the Dreamcast. It's just that the Dreamcast is a more modern design that supports more modern effects (think of it like comparing a very powerful, high-end directX 8 card and a more modern, mid-range directX 9 card). Also, by the time the DC was out, the software tools were also more modern and devs had more experience in creating and animating human characters. That's why some fighting games (that depend on dev experience to look good) look so much better on DC/Naomi while racing games (that need brute force and not much else) look much better on Model 3.

There are a few things to look that prove Model 3's superiority. Compare something like 18 Wheeler or Crazy Taxi on Naomi/DC and the Ambulance game and Harley Davidson on Model 3. All these games are semi-open world racing, sort of. But the Model 3 games have infinite draw distance and huge structures, while the similar looking Naomi/DC games have very limited draw distance and kinda less impressive structures and overall detail.

Also, there's nothing on Naomi/DC that pushes as many polys as Daytona 2 on Model 3, not even on Naomi 2 i would say. Though that was a later step Model 3.

The only games that look better on DC/Naomi are fighting games. Virtua Fighter 3 doesn't look as good as something like Dead or Alive 2 or Soul Calibur. But like i said, these type of games feature human characters and tons of animations. To build a human character and animate it beautifully needs knowledge and experience, not so much brute force hardware IMO. Virtua Fighter 3 was made in a time where devs still had to figure out how to make human characters look good. So i'm sure the Model 3 would be able to handle Soul Calibur or DoA 2 it they developed them for it later on. But i don't think the Naomi/DC would be able to handle Daytona USA 2 without major sacrifices.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

Some clarification: I don’t believe Sega of America was looking to Lockheed Martin’s Real 3D board for Generation 6, but seeking to replace Saturn. Their attempts to purchase the 3DO company in 1995 to obtain the 64-bit M2 console for a 1996 release was publicized at the time, although

Basically, Kalinske’s people at SoA were convinced Saturn would wreck the company due to cost. Even after Sega finally managed to get the hardware down to a single motherboard (pop the hood on a model 1 Saturn and be shocked), they couldn’t sell it for less than $300 without taking a loss, which meant that Sony could launch a price war. Which is precisely what happened: PlayStation went from $299 in September 1995 to $199 in June 1996 to $149 in March 1997.

So Sega wanted to buy M2 and partner with Matsushita, essentially handing them the hardware manufacturing side while they do use purely on software, effectively getting out of the hardware business. Negotiations failed when Matsushita wanted to license M2 to multiple companies, just like the original 3DO, while Sega wanted to be the sole partner.

I’ll have to provide the newspaper link (San Francisco Examiner, August 1995), but I did post it on the Official Sega Saturn Community forum.

 

[Azelover]

I think the way it happened was probably the best way.

At that point they couldnt win, no matter what they did differently.

One thing that could stretch the life of that console from Sega, would be for them to cut costs. They were way too ambitious with the Dreamcast. Maybe if the chips were slightly cheaper. And also cutting off the included modem, it was too early for that, in terms of mass market.

They wouldnt sell more systems, but the business would survive. Possibly.

 

[Alexios]

Huh? Dev experience/skill and system power/specs are all important in every genre. You still wanna push more polygons, more effects, better textures and so on, even if your devs can achieve miracles with less of everything. I'd say Model 3 (any step) vs Dreamcast is a wash with a couple tradeoffs in different areas and most games support that, it's only the bad port of Sega Rally 2 (the VF3tb port's deficiences are way overblown) muddying the waters but that's down to the vastly different architecture it was optimized for (and still has some better things on DC but the things it does worse are much more apparent and sour the experience) and development issues. Games squeezing all Naomi/Dreamcast power like Virtua Striker 2, Sega Bass Fishing and Virtual On 2 and games that weren't on Model 3 at all to compare them like Sega Marine Fishing, Bass Fishing 2 and F355 show it's perfectly capable of achieving visuals that impress whether a Model 3 game is sitting next to them or not. And of course the more modern architecture matters too in showing visuals with great effects as in Le Mans and other games. Granted Daytona USA 2 is possibly the best looking title on any of the two systems regardless but everything else Model 3 put out I'd say is matched by something on Dreamcast in overall visual pleasantry, I don't think the arcade Le Mans or Sega Rally 2 are better looking overall than some of the other Dreamcast games name dropped here and DOA2 certainly also matches (and imo surpasses) anything Model 3 got in that genre, from VF3tb to Fighting Vipers 2 (which also got a downgraded port with the environments in particular suffering a lot even though the environments in DOA2 are even more detailed and complex). Crazy Taxi & 2 look a lot like Emergency Call Ambulance yet are much more open games, The House of the Dead 2 and Confidential Mission rival Ocean Hunter and other Model 3 lightgun games and so on. Despite Nagoshi's comments about a Dreamcast port of SpikeOut, Naomi's Spikers Battle and Slashout show it could probably do similar with more effort. Dirt Devils is outclassed by a Midway third party game of all things in my opinion too (4 Wheel Thunder, though it's not that fun a game but meh, I also love Sega Rally 2 more than most but visually it's matched by other games as I mentioned earlier imo).

 

[UnNamed]

I read a lot of articles and comments on forums speculating about the early stages of Dreamcast with people talking about Real3D and 3DFX, but at that point both companies were pretty much out of the game.

 

[Gp1]

Just to clarify, the only games on Model 3 Step 1.0 are VF3/tb, Sega bass fishing and a boat game that I never heard about it.

 

[nkarafo]

Huh? Dev experience/skill and system power/specs are all important in every genre.

Programming aside, if you take only the visuals into account, you gotta admit that modeling and animating humans, who have flexible bodies filled with joints, have clothes that are also stretchable fabrics and faces that need so much extra detailing, expressions, etc, is a tad more complex and difficult that modeling a bunch of cars that are mostly static objects on four wheels.

I did my fair share of 3D modelling with 3D max back in my college days and i could do a lot of great looking stuff, but my limit was shown when i had to make humans, let alone animate them. Same with other flexible objects that also had complex animations.

 

[Naked Lunch]

Sega Rally might be the best videogame of all time.
Its that good.

 

[Alexios]

Programming aside, if you take only the visuals into account, you gotta admit that modeling and animating humans, who have flexible bodies filled with joints, have clothes that are also stretchable fabrics and faces that need so much extra detailing, expressions, etc, is a tad more complex and difficult that modeling a bunch of cars that are mostly static objects on four wheels.

I did my fair share of 3D modelling with 3D max back in my college days and i could do a lot of great looking stuff, but my limit was shown when i had to make humans, let alone animate them. Same with other flexible objects that also had complex animations.

I've dabbled in modeling, did mostly organic things, monsters, dinosaurs, some humanoids, but that was like ~900-1200 triangle Half-Life mod tier stuff. I used milkshape 3D. Sure, it takes skill and I knew folks leagues ahead of me that could do wonders you'd never believe are so low on the polycount but that doesn't diminish the need for high specs for the programmers to be able to to give the modelers enough polygons etc. to work with and do what they can, if DOA2 couldn't achieve pushing more polygons than most other Dreamcast games then either its characters or the environments would have suffered for it and look closer to games that don't push as many like Soulcalibur, which itself looks great aesthetically but you can see the difference in complexity too. A racing game has some organic visuals in the courses if it's not all urban areas, but you can see the bump in polygons, textures and effects from PlayStation to Dreamcast for example in every genre, or the improvement in visuals from Tokyo Xtreme Racer 1 to 2 on Dreamcast in everything included, or the crappy port of 4 x 4 Evo vs better racers on Dreamcast, or the bump from PlayStation to Dreamcast in Vanishing Point's port allowing some sense of car interiors to be visible through the windows rather than some token shiny effect on them, etc., I've said before that VF3tb being a '96 game means Sega's modelers didn't have the best know how yet hence the game looking more crude and the Dreamcast port in 99 getting more trashed than it deserved as the problem wasn't so much the differences from the arcade but the whole aesthetic not being as good as other games like the technically inferior in many ways yet much more praised by everyone Soulcalibur. It's not like I said shit tier artists are alright to have (they'd waste tons of polygons in car models too anyway, making blocky shapes that don't justify their polygons and having nothing left for additional detail elements or smoother curves), I just said power is equally important to developer (not just artist) stats. Going back to car modeling I imagine nowadays it's much more technical than artistic what with getting 3D data from the real deal rather than sculpting from scratch or placing vertices over ortho view photos/2D art. But then that probably goes for humans and other materials too in some ways, you don't have a texture artist literally painting a texture but have to balance all kinds of material properties, probably work from photo sources, have things like normal mapping and other layers, motion capture rather than from scratch made up movements for animations and so on and so forth.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Sega Rally might be the best videogame of all time.
Its that good.

it def stands the test of time

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Some clarification: I don’t believe Sega of America was looking to Lockheed Martin’s Real 3D board for Generation 6, but seeking to replace Saturn. Their attempts to purchase the 3DO company in 1995 to obtain the 64-bit M2 console for a 1996 release was publicized at the time, although

Basically, Kalinske’s people at SoA were convinced Saturn would wreck the company due to cost. Even after Sega finally managed to get the hardware down to a single motherboard (pop the hood on a model 1 Saturn and be shocked), they couldn’t sell it for less than $300 without taking a loss, which meant that Sony could launch a price war. Which is precisely what happened: PlayStation went from $299 in September 1995 to $199 in June 1996 to $149 in March 1997.

So Sega wanted to buy M2 and partner with Matsushita, essentially handing them the hardware manufacturing side while they do use purely on software, effectively getting out of the hardware business. Negotiations failed when Matsushita wanted to license M2 to multiple companies, just like the original 3DO, while Sega wanted to be the sole partner.

I’ll have to provide the newspaper link (San Francisco Examiner, August 1995), but I did post it on the Official Sega Saturn Community forum.

Actually it was 3DO that wanted to license the other manufactures and got Matsu on board, 3DO was still part of the process when the reports came out and the later reports that Sega pulled. Which Sega already had a previous failed negotiation with the original 3DO console. Sega basically wanted to jump on 3Do looking to sell M2 everything to Matsushita, and 3DO basically held off on finalizing despite the deal being known until after Sega ooulled, and then not long after the reports of 3DO giving up on the M2 and all that were coming out. Then price warring with Sony they couldn't afford into 1996, months later they were looking to finalize a sell of their hardware division to Samsung.

Of course, Matushita even without 3DO, was not likely going to only have one partner based on the business model, but 3DO has some influence on Matsushita not taking that deal, and also not making it very possible to do even if they did.

Sega wanted to distance themselves from being considered "simply" an arcade port console maker, so they started emphasizing more original productions for Dreamcast. They had actually been doing that with Saturn as well, but their reputation among the mainstream was still very much as an arcade company, and FWIW a lot of their biggest Saturn pushes were ports of Model 2 arcade games.

It's probably the reason they went so ham on Shenmue they way they did.

What's funny about this is that Sega were putting arcade games int he spotlight, and some of their earlier more deep gaming choices and partnerships were with questionable quality to say the least (Evolution?) Shenmue was pushed hard not only because of the amount of money wasted on it, but it was at the time the star showcase Sega had of everything else they had at the time it was being marketed up until release, of the Dreamcast graphics at a time. A long multi-hour action adventure that separated Dreamcast from everything else and wasn't a 2 hour coin-op conversion.

Unfortunately, despite promoting it post-release, they weren't able to get it to catch on the way they needed it too. NFL ended up engulfing the consoles image in the US.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Model 3 was too expensive and didn't make the same splash and support like Model 2 did. Eventually they decided to go with NEC and 3DFX for the Katana and Black Belt, Katana prevailed as it was considered a more powerful hardware at much lower cost and could be used in arcades as Naomi.

Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast for all I know had framerate issues that weren't in the arcade version, it was also rushed the hell out to make it for the DC launch with two teams at different working hours to make it for the launch day, in the end they still had to delay the japanese release by three months. Most Model 3 games weren't available due to licensing and lack of interest.

Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast was also one of the few games that used WindowsCE, which didn’t exactly make efficient use of the hardware.

 

[RickMasters]

Ah yes…. I remember reading that edge article back in the days . They should have worked with Lockheed Martin on both the Saturn and DC. Especially the Saturn. Could only imagine what a marvel that machine would have been with a simpler CPU configuration ( instead of two 28MHZ cpu maybe one 60mHz cpu would have been better) , and a dedicated 3D rendering chip alongside VDP 1 and 2

Those arcade ports would have been so much better we might have gotten a 3D sonic in the 90s and generally I think their in-house and teams would have had more hardware muscle to play with for games nights, burning rangers… games like Panzer dragon sage would have looked even more stunning. We may have gotten more ports of third parties that used model 2 to make arcades games.


And we would have gotten a Daytona USA port on Saturn that would not have looked so bad next to ridge racer is n PS2 in 1994/5.


All their arcade ports would have been much closer to model 2 Saturn.


I think DC hardware would have done a better job of model 3 ports had they put more time into them. I seen a video about the sega rally 2 and VF3 ports that explained a lot. But for sure a Lockheed Martin powered dream cast would have been cool! But I think the crucial time for sega to have developed that hardware was for the 32 but era.

 

[RickMasters]

Still salty about the Sega Rally port we got on Dreamcast. I was so disappointed.
I remember very vaguely that it might have been something to do with MS CE but probably remembering wrong.

Man I thought I was the only one! When they ported VF2, Daytona USA, , virtual on and fighting vipers to Xbox360 I thought we were gonna finally get arcaded perfect ports of sega rally 1 and 2 and possibly scud race but sega went all cold turky on us.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Model 3, even step 1, has more brute force power than the Dreamcast. It's just that the Dreamcast is a more modern design that supports more modern effects (think of it like comparing a very powerful, high-end directX 8 card and a more modern, mid-range directX 9 card). Also, by the time the DC was out, the software tools were also more modern and devs had more experience in creating and animating human characters. That's why some fighting games (that depend on dev experience to look good) look so much better on DC/Naomi while racing games (that need brute force and not much else) look much better on Model 3.

There are a few things to look that prove Model 3's superiority. Compare something like 18 Wheeler or Crazy Taxi on Naomi/DC and the Ambulance game and Harley Davidson on Model 3. All these games are semi-open world racing, sort of. But the Model 3 games have infinite draw distance and huge structures, while the similar looking Naomi/DC games have very limited draw distance and kinda less impressive structures and overall detail.

Also, there's nothing on Naomi/DC that pushes as many polys as Daytona 2 on Model 3, not even on Naomi 2 i would say. Though that was a later step Model 3.

The only games that look better on DC/Naomi are fighting games. Virtua Fighter 3 doesn't look as good as something like Dead or Alive 2 or Soul Calibur. But like i said, these type of games feature human characters and tons of animations. To build a human character and animate it beautifully needs knowledge and experience, not so much brute force hardware IMO. Virtua Fighter 3 was made in a time where devs still had to figure out how to make human characters look good. So i'm sure the Model 3 would be able to handle Soul Calibur or DoA 2 it they developed them for it later on. But i don't think the Naomi/DC would be able to handle Daytona USA 2 without major sacrifices.

NA@MI could push more polygons and had more effects, but those effects came at a cost of polygon performance (a bit like the N64) Model 3 Step 2 could use all the boards effects at no cost to the unit polygon perfoance, it's memory bus was almost much faster too.

Dead of Alive2 is pushing more polygons than any Model 3 game out there

 

[Team Andromeda]

Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast was also one of the few games that used WindowsCE, which didn’t exactly make efficient use of the hardware.

That is overblown I feel. You could use Win CE for the 1st steps and then look to code to the metal. I remember a interview with Smilebit and they said the main reasons they used Win CE was for ease of porting the PC code over and to use the DC internet. At that stage DC development tools didn't full support internet fuctions

Sega Rally 2 main issue was like with Daytona USA on the Saturn the project was rushed out to help with sales of Hardware

 

[Team Andromeda]

Some clarification: I don’t believe Sega of America was looking to Lockheed Martin’s Real 3D board for Generation 6, but seeking to replace Saturn. Their attempts to purchase the 3DO company in 1995 to obtain the 64-bit M2 console for a 1996 release was publicized at the time, although

Basically, Kalinske’s people at SoA were convinced Saturn would wreck the company due to cost. Even after Sega finally managed to get the hardware down to a single motherboard (pop the hood on a model 1 Saturn and be shocked), they couldn’t sell it for less than $300 without taking a loss, which meant that Sony could launch a price war. Which is precisely what happened: PlayStation went from $299 in September 1995 to $199 in June 1996 to $149 in March 1997.

So Sega wanted to buy M2 and partner with Matsushita, essentially handing them the hardware manufacturing side while they do use purely on software, effectively getting out of the hardware business. Negotiations failed when Matsushita wanted to license M2 to multiple companies, just like the original 3DO, while Sega wanted to be the sole partner.

I’ll have to provide the newspaper link (San Francisco Examiner, August 1995), but I did post it on the Official Sega Saturn Community forum.

If SEGA were worried about costs then you wouldn't be looking at Model 3 tech to power home systems
I think its important to remember that the 32X was called to counter the Jag and 3DO, not the PS. Only for Tom to think it could also counter and win the battle with PS, Saturn and N64 due to price alone A call that killed SEGA and the hardware dream IMO.

You also need to remember that SONY was lossing money hand over fist with the $399 price tag, which is why SONY Japan made heads roll at SONY America and SONY Canada.
SEGA America fatel mistake was not in the pricing of the Saturn, not the early launch, it was thinking people still cared the 16-bit market in 1994/5 and weren't ready to spend big on a new system, only they did and SEGA America had nothing to offer it wasn't in their plans at all.

I don't ever recall SEGA looking to buy 3DO or being a part of 3DO talks. All that seemed to change with BullDog/M2 and SEGA looking to have it's Hardware and if you listen to Trip were a handshake away. Still if you listen to Trip, so were Philips at one stage. SEGA no dount wanted the Hardware to itself mind Not that the Hardware turned out to be that good in the end

 

[nkarafo]

Dead of Alive2 is pushing more polygons than any Model 3 game out there

Do you have a source for that? I believe it does push more than any fighting game on Model 3 but i doubt it does more than Daytona 2. The later is so detailed, it legit impresses me more than Outrun 2 on the Chihiro/XBOX even.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Do you have a source for that? I believe it does push more than any fighting game on Model 3 but i doubt it does more than Daytona 2. The later is so detailed, it legit impresses me more than Outrun 2 on the Chihiro/XBOX even.

Dead Or Alive 2 on the DC is pushing over 2 million polygons and close to 4 million polygons at times. No Model 3 game ever came close to that
Looks can be deceiving, I belive I'm correct in saying Virtual Fighter 3 on the DC is pushing more polygons than Soul Calibur

 

[nkarafo]

Dead Or Alive 2 on the DC is pushing over 2 million polygons and close to 4 million polygons at times. No Model 3 game ever came close to that

It's not that i don't want to believe you but you are still stating things without any proof. I couldn't find any info about how many polys later Model 3 games like Daytona 2 push so i'm not sure about that.

It's not only Daytona mind you. You can see the difference in other games. I already mentioned this but look at something like Harley Davidson or Emergency Call ambulance. Both games look more detailed and have infinite draw distance, unlike similar open world Naomi/DC games such as Crazy Taxi and 18 Wheeler. How come it's so easy for the Model 3 to render these big worlds without any LOD or pop-up but the DC/Naomi struggles?

It's only those few fighting games that look better on DC/Naomi, how come? I always thought that was weird how the Model 3 looks like it pushes graphics much more effortlessly than the Naomi/DC but the only exception seems to be those VS fighting games. I'm not trying to argue, i'm really interested to know. That's why i made this theory in my head, that Fighting games need more experience in animation and human modelling to look good so they look better on Naomi because they are newer. Makes more sense to me that believing a consumer based hardware such as the Naomi/DC is more powerful than the super-expensive, custom made Model 3 hardware after only a couple of years.

Looks can be deceiving, I belive I'm correct in saying Virtual Fighter 3 on the DC is pushing more polygons than Soul Calibur

I can believe that about VF because it proves my point i'm trying to make. VF3 wastes a lot of polygons because at the time it was made devs still struggled to optimize 3D human models. Same with animation. So in the end, Soul Calibur doesn't look better because the hardware is better, it looks better because the developers had better/more modern tools and more knowledge in making 3D human models.

But when you see something like Daytona 2 how can you be deceived? Compare it with any other racing game at the time, on any other platform, and you can see the extra details and polygon usage because there are more objects, more stuff "sticking out", less boxy objects and more things that in other games are mostly depicted using textures, such as details that stick out of background buildings like window frames or extra beams that stick out of walls.

Daytona 2 in particular is very detailed in that sense, especially the later tracks. There's no other Naomi or DC racing game that comes close to the background level of detail here. All while the game runs at uninterrupted 60fps, has lots of cars on screen and has zero pop-in or LOD. I have played this and Outrun 2 to death and i am willing to bet that Daytona 2 is the more detailed of the two despite Outrun being a Chihiro/XBOX game. Outrun still has better effects such as bloom and it definitely has better reflections and lighting but in terms of polygons and object detail... I'm really not sure.

 

[Team Andromeda]

It's not that i don't want to believe you but you are still stating things without any proof. I couldn't find any info about how many polys later Model 3 games like Daytona 2 push so i'm not sure about that.

It's not only Daytona mind you. You can see the difference in other games. I already mentioned this but look at something like Harley Davidson or Emergency Call ambulance. Both games look more detailed and have infinite draw distance, unlike similar open world Naomi/DC games such as Crazy Taxi and 18 Wheeler. How come it's so easy for the Model 3 to render these big worlds without any LOD or pop-up but the DC/Naomi struggles?

It's only those few fighting games that look better on DC/Naomi, how come? I always thought that was weird how the Model 3 looks like it pushes graphics much more effortlessly than the Naomi/DC but the only exception seems to be those VS fighting games. I'm not trying to argue, i'm really interested to know. That's why i made this theory in my head, that Fighting games need more experience in animation and human modelling to look good so they look better on Naomi because they are newer. Makes more sense to me that believing a consumer based hardware such as the Naomi/DC is more powerful than the super-expensive, custom made Model 3 hardware after only a couple of years.




I can believe that about VF because it proves my point i'm trying to make. VF3 wastes a lot of polygons because at the time it was made devs still struggled to optimize 3D human models. Same with animation. So in the end, Soul Calibur doesn't look better because the hardware is better, it looks better because the developers had better/more modern tools and more knowledge in making 3D human models.

But when you see something like Daytona 2 how can you be deceived? Compare it with any other racing game at the time, on any other platform, and you can see the extra details and polygon usage because there are more objects, more stuff "sticking out", less boxy objects and more things that in other games are mostly depicted using textures, such as details that stick out of background buildings like window frames or extra beams that stick out of walls.

Daytona 2 in particular is very detailed in that sense, especially the later tracks. There's no other Naomi or DC racing game that comes close to the background level of detail here. All while the game runs at uninterrupted 60fps, has lots of cars on screen and has zero pop-in or LOD. I have played this and Outrun 2 to death and i am willing to bet that Daytona 2 is the more detailed of the two despite Outrun being a Chihiro/XBOX game. Outrun still has better effects such as bloom and it definitely has better reflections and lighting but in terms of polygons and object detail... I'm really not sure.

I've seen various places do polygon counts on DOA2 and I remember some ex-member of SEGA staff on Twitter saying Model 3 didn't go beyond 2 million polygons. I actually thought Crazy Taxi looked better than Daytona USA 2 myself and also thought the NA@MI/DC version of Virtual Striker 2 looked better than the Model 3 version and 'for me' Tokyo Highway Challenge 2 looked better than any Model 3 racer

 

[nkarafo]

I've seen various places do polygon counts on DOA2 and I remember some ex-member of SEGA staff on Twitter saying Model 3 didn't go beyond 2 million polygons.

ΟΚ but that all seems too vague and anecdotal. Polygon counts under what conditions? Is it like those official specs that count polygons without any other context?

I can't really compare a racing game with a fighting game and tell you which one is more detailed though so i won't argue more about this.

I actually thought Crazy Taxi looked better than Daytona USA 2 myself

In what way though? Crazy Taxi has some very close pop-ip, very low resolution textures and boxy buildings.

also thought the NA@MI/DC version of Virtual Striker 2 looked better than the Model 3 version

Can't comment on that since i haven't made any comparisons myself but i would be interested to know the reasoning. From a first glance i can't see much of a difference. Looks like a similar situation with Virtua ON to me (both look the same more or less at first glance).

and 'for me' Tokyo Highway Challenge 2 looked better than any Model 3 racer

Is it because of the aesthetics though? I would like to know your reasoning, like i'm explaining mine. Because i don't see anything impressive here, technically. There's even some very close pop-in, much closer than most other games of that generation. It doesn't look like something that shows the power of DC/Naomi at all. I would expect you to mention something like the Test Drive: Le Mans game, which looks incredible on DC (but still has LOD issues and too many 2D assets in the backgrounds). I can't see anything in THC2 that matches (let alone beats) Daytona 2, visually.

 

[6502]

A quick look on a few youtube videos show Virtua Striker 2 Model 3 having a fair bit of pop up on the stands when running back and forth. Naomi / DC don't appear to have any issue.

 

[Alexios]

(but still has LOD issues and too many 2D assets in the backgrounds).

I would hardly call them "lod issues", it's pretty distant and at 640x480 crt only noticable in specific track elements like say, the various bits making up the ferris wheel you race past and the car models (which makes sense when you also have dynamic time of day, weather and up to 24 cars that go up to almost as much detail as your own car when close by rather than be some non descript made up background car or stick to lower lod only even when you're close to them). The games you praise for Model 3 like the Harley arcade game also are full of 2D assets and pop in is actually quite visible both in traffic and in background elements (there seems to be less in ECA but again that's not nearly as open, I'd say the higher density of assets in Crazy Taxi is to blame for the more evident pop in). 2D assets just made sense to use back then, like trees in most of these games and GT3/4. Metropolis Street Racer also uses 2D to great effect for all sorts of things like fences, intricate rails or whatever else and also has a lot of polygonal density making up the tracks. Vanishing Point has no visible pop in but that goes for the PS version too. To me F355 is the best looking racer on DC overall (maybe because I prefer the 60fps over Dreamcast Le Mans' super fancy lighting and effects) even if other games do this or that aspect better and it has great view distance and lod too and it certainly beats Le Mans on Model 3 for a similar aesthetic style as that looks much more flat. Daytona USA looks great too but the art style and course design is completely different to Daytona USA 2 (which I've already concedes probably looks best but it's just one game). If it wasn't for the weird main car shine I might like it as much as F355, the courses are visible to the horizon.

 

[nkarafo]

I tried to do a comparison of Virtua Striker 2 on Model 3 vs Naomi. Both emulated at HD to see more details. Model 3 version seems to have higher res textures in the backgrounds, look at the balcony textures, the crowd, the billboards, etc. And it looks a bit more vibrant and less fuzzy in general. Object wise, there's no difference that i can see. But overall Model 3 still takes a small win since it has better textures.

Model 3

Naomi

 

[nkarafo]

A quick look on a few youtube videos show Virtua Striker 2 Model 3 having a fair bit of pop up on the stands when running back and forth. Naomi / DC don't appear to have any issue.

Could you post a video? Is the Model 3 version shown in widescreen? If it does, it's a hack, the game isn't in widescreen and the forced extra space makes those artifacts appear. it's a pretty common issue with widescreen hacks.

Example of widescreen hack:





How the game really looks:

 

[Dane]

Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast was also one of the few games that used WindowsCE, which didn’t exactly make efficient use of the hardware.

Almost sure that the reason for such curious choice comes down to both versions intended to be released simultaneously, IIRC back at TGS 98, it was reported that it was playable for Windows only, while the Dreamcast was a rolling demo, therefore the former was the leading platform.

 

[VGEsoterica]

Could you post a video? Is the Model 3 version shown in widescreen? If it does, it's a hack, the game isn't in widescreen and the forced extra space makes those artifacts appear. it's a pretty common issue with widescreen hacks.

Example of widescreen hack:





How the game really looks:

I’ll have a video specifically on this tomorrow. Supermodel

 

[Alan Wake]

Well Dreamcast was more powerful than Model 2, on paper at least.

The problem with Dreamcast was that yes it did get some arcade ports, Sega (stupidly imo) decided early on they didnt want a lot of arcade ports on Dreamcast. And imo that was part of the thing that killed it.

Dreamcast had some amazing arcade ports. But short arcade experiences weren't as attractive as before, and a few more of them wouldn't have mattered.

 

[6502]

Could you post a video? Is the Model 3 version shown in widescreen? If it does, it's a hack, the game isn't in widescreen and the forced extra space makes those artifacts appear. it's a pretty common issue with widescreen hacks.

Example of widescreen hack:





How the game really looks:

It is indeed. Thanks for the education

 

[VGEsoterica]

Dreamcast had some amazing arcade ports. But short arcade experiences weren't as attractive as before, and a few more of them wouldn't have mattered.

Still would have rather had it happen than not all the same

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

3DO Co. May Be Bought By Sega

Sega Enterprises Ltd. is talking to The 3DO Co. of Redwood City about buying all or part...

www.sfgate.com

Returning to the main topic, Sega of America tried to purchase the 3DO Company in 1995 in order to secure their 64-but M2 console. The plan was to release it in 1996 directly against Nintendo 64, which is when Generation 5 finally began to take off (the US videogame industry went through a serious contraction from 1993-96).

This August 1995 newspaper article is not the only source, but it is a good starting point. There are other bits and parts from the period in the gaming press, although nobody seemed to piece it all together at the time (which makes sense, given how rapidly things were changing).

Again, M2 was not intended to replace what became Dreamcast. It was intended to replace Saturn, which Sega of America did not want, believing that the high cost of building the console kept it far out of reach of the mass market price point (which in those days was $149), and leaving the company extremely vulnerable to a price war at the hands of Sony (which is exactly what happened).

The idea was for Matsushita to manufacture the M2 systems while Sega focused on software, effectively taking themselves out of the hardware business. But the Japanese giant wanted to license the M2 tech to multiple companies, as was done with 3DO, while Sega wanted an exclusive partnership.