InfiniteCombo
Banned
I don't understand what this post is trying to say, like at all.
The Dreamcast (and Saturn before that) being a financial failure does not take away from its design as a console or, more importantly, its great library of games.
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Sega Dreamcast. The best console ever. Why? See inside!
- Thread starter darkangel-212559
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The Dreamcast (and Saturn before that) being a financial failure does not take away from its design as a console or, more importantly, its great library of games.
German Hops
GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief
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recursive
Member
How did you get that sweet title? Still fighting the good fight for sega?
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Dreamcast had such a short life, but it was so packed. Sure the library might not be able to go toe to toe with PS2 as a whole but when you consider that all those games came out within about two and a half years it's really incredible.
I remember that time and there were so many games I wanted I could barely keep up.
It was also the last great "arcade at home" system, and a snapshot of the last truly great era of arcade gaming, with tons of shmups and fighting games and racers. That stuff can't really sustain a console anymore (maybe couldn't then, even), but if you loved those games, Dreamcast was THE system.
I remember that time and there were so many games I wanted I could barely keep up.
It was also the last great "arcade at home" system, and a snapshot of the last truly great era of arcade gaming, with tons of shmups and fighting games and racers. That stuff can't really sustain a console anymore (maybe couldn't then, even), but if you loved those games, Dreamcast was THE system.
Berserking Guts
Member
Dresmcasts Dreamarena was my first ever online environment. Loved the chat rooms back then.
SkylineRKR
Member
These are valid points. Sega lost a fuckton of marketshare over 1997 and 1998 because they pretty much had nothing to offer since they publicly axed the Saturn. I had a PSX and Sony had with 1997/1998 perhaps its best years ever. Sega was simply forgotten outside of arcades. So when Sega announced DC the initial response was its probably another Saturn or 32x dud. DC never had any kind of chance. Sony was so far ahead and captured so much share, that PS2 was the logical next-gen console of choice. And Sony delivered with the PS1; support lasted a long ass time (in that era, more than 4 years was long, PSX still saw some all time classics in 2000). Even I initially thought the DC would probably suck since Sega. But I think the arcade helped it somewhat, those games like HOTD2 and SR2 did gain traction in the arcade and people noticed them for being awesome. DC was the console that could pull that shit off. This is why I eventually wanted one at launch. But the PS2 was always looming, it was like, fun until the PS2 is out anyway.
We know how it went. PS2 didn't look that much better when it launched (it could do more tricks, but lacked AA and VGA), and I think that in 2000 DC was by far the better choice between the 2. PS2 would really skyrocket late 2001, which would be more than 2 years later. DC wasn't a bad choice in 1999 though PSX saw a great twilight year, I was glad I didn't ditch it yet.
GD-Rom was perhaps a bad choice, but DVD was too soon. The console shipped in 1998 in Japan, DVD drives would probably propel the console well over 600 bucks.
Putonahappyface
Member
One of my biggest gaming regrets was not owning a Dreamcast. My friend owned one and he was hooked on Soul Calibur and Jet Set Radio. I liked the design of the VMU and the mini games that was ingenius.
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dcx4610
Member
It was extremely innovative but I didn't buy it at launch. I was burned so much by Sega growing up (I bought the Sega CD and 32X and neither ended up even being as good as the SNES overall) by the time the Dreamcast launched, I was done. I was already playing PC games and had a feeling the Dreamcast would flop or Sega would be Sega and release add-ons for it to make it competitive.
That said, I was slightly jealous of it. While it didn't really have any games on it I wanted to play, it was the first time in history where the console version of arcade games were 1:1 copies and in some ways, even better. You didn't need to go to the arcade to play Soul Calibur. The DC version was exactly the same. That was a huge shift since you were so used to having to deal with compromised ports.
I eventually got a Dreamcast after Sega pulled the plug on it and enjoyed games like Firepro Wrestling and getting all of the data to fit on bootleg VMUs. It's a shame that Sega finally got it right but when the competition was too much.
That said, I was slightly jealous of it. While it didn't really have any games on it I wanted to play, it was the first time in history where the console version of arcade games were 1:1 copies and in some ways, even better. You didn't need to go to the arcade to play Soul Calibur. The DC version was exactly the same. That was a huge shift since you were so used to having to deal with compromised ports.
I eventually got a Dreamcast after Sega pulled the plug on it and enjoyed games like Firepro Wrestling and getting all of the data to fit on bootleg VMUs. It's a shame that Sega finally got it right but when the competition was too much.
shoplifter
Member
It's my #2. Sega really screwed it up (which in turn screwed the DC) in the US with the library. Absolute shame because there are some real gems.
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darkangel-212559
Banned
Yup. Totally agree.
I thought that the 32X and Sega CD had some good games. (Sonic Spinball was amazing and still is). But by then it was all down hill. Bad public rep and Sony just destroyed them.
Still I miss those times. At least you didn't buy into broken messes only to be fixed down the line. You had creativity back then. That's all so rare these days.
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Warnen
Don't pass gaas, it is your Destiny!
Yup, the Majority of the gems for the system never made it outside of Japan.
stranno
Member
You forgot the Fishing Controller. I was basically the Wiimote like 4 or 5 years before the Wiimote. It didn't featured a camera, as a pointer, but the accelerometer was already there. And the fishing rod patent basically exploits all the Wiimote usages Nintendo ever come up with.
I like the DC, but still, it has too many sport and arcade games to my taste, Playstation blew it out the water in terms of variety. The disc drive was noisy as hell, probably the loudest one I've ever seen. And the GD-Rom didn't make any sense, even being the definitive copy protection (since no one had a GD burner, and even having one it would have been impossible to replicate the master of the discs), Sega artificially created a gigantic vulnerability with the MIL-CDs.
Due CD-Roms having like 400MB less than the GD-Roms, the piracy scene of the console also sucked. Those CD rips were absolutely terrible. No videos, mono sound, 2,000 cds for an RPG..
I like the DC, but still, it has too many sport and arcade games to my taste, Playstation blew it out the water in terms of variety. The disc drive was noisy as hell, probably the loudest one I've ever seen. And the GD-Rom didn't make any sense, even being the definitive copy protection (since no one had a GD burner, and even having one it would have been impossible to replicate the master of the discs), Sega artificially created a gigantic vulnerability with the MIL-CDs.
Due CD-Roms having like 400MB less than the GD-Roms, the piracy scene of the console also sucked. Those CD rips were absolutely terrible. No videos, mono sound, 2,000 cds for an RPG..
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Orta
Banned
Funnily enough I got it for taking the piss out of something Xbox related. Anyone who asks assumes it was a reward for my Playstation venom.
As for fighting Sega's corner, ready and wiling Sir. I'm not going to let anything silly like common sense or Sega ultimately being the architects of their own fuckwitted demise stand in my way.
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Caio
Member
I didn't want to say...ok, it's a bit embarrassing, the dreamcast had sex with Captain Toad in a castle full of treasures.
Shifty1897
Member
I couldn't afford one at launch (I was like 14 at the time), but I bought one off a friend for $50 after it died. Skies of Arcadia, Grandia 2, Virtua Tennis, Crazy Taxi, Soul Calibur, the system had so many hits.
SkylineRKR
Member
A good amount of DC games fit on CDR though. A few of them, like the Shenmues, were brutally chopped up and some of them didn't even release in the pirate scene. DC had a lot of smaller arcade ports, those were generally fine on CDR.
ShirAhava
Plays with kids toys, in the adult gaming world
Indeed both systems have better catalogs
Everything I hate about modern gaming started with the Dreamcast
Everything I loved about gaming died with the Genesis/Saturn
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
Dunno if I can call it the best ever, but my time with the system has only really begun recently. Currently playing Napple Tale with English patch and I really love the Klonoa + Studio Ghibli + Nadia style vibes of that game so far. It's a 2.5D platformer but they've clearly put a lot into the world-building and there's a lot of dialog even at the start, feels like a JRPG in that sense.
One of the only other games I've put some time into is Karous; excellent soundtrack there. Like I said, I need time with more games and some of the best games got ported to other systems just a few years later (Sonic Adventure, Crazy Taxi 1 & 2, Rez etc.), but I would definitely say it's within my Top 10 without a doubt.
You'll have to explain this, because I can't picture anything Dreamcast did outside of (for the time) biggest push for online gaming, that MegaDrive and Saturn didn't already do. Style-wise Sega's 1P stayed generally the same if not got even weirder with some games (Seaman, Segagaga etc.). It had a lot of fighters just like Saturn, ample amount of shmups (also like Saturn, and MegaDrive), arguably more 3P support than Saturn (kinda iffy; it definitely had more Western 3P support than Saturn, but maybe less Japanese 3P support), great marketing campaign etc.
It's one thing if MegaDrive & Saturn are better in your eyes but pinning all of modern gaming's problems on Dreamcast truly makes no sense. Dreamcast was really the last console IMO that represented the Old Era of gaming, with some ideas to bridge it to the New Era. If you want to actually pin where some of modern gaming's more questionable stuff started you should probably look to PS2, OG Xbox or Gamecube tho IMO even those are kind of a stretch.
A lot of modern gaming's more persistent issues, I think the majority would agree, really started to begin with 360/PS3/Wii generation, well after Dreamcast.
There are exclusives on Sega consoles I enjoy more than most exclusives on any Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft console. When people talk about how great these systems are, it's usually because of the games, not how many units the console sold or if the platform holder is still around.
Another reason they talk about how great these systems are is because of the culture they fostered. There's just a certain vibe/atmosphere to Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, Neo-Geo, PC-Engine etc. that you won't get on other platforms from Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo etc. Having that variety is a great thing in the industry especially for gamers who play on more than one platform.
'90s Capcom is so interesting because by the mid-90s it almost felt like there were two sides of the company; the old-school side that grew up with arcades and arcade-style games, and the new emerging side that was pushing for more story-driven, single-player polygonal experiences. It's very clear the former grew a very close bond with Sega and went that direction, while the latter ended up preferring Sony.
That said, games of both types would come to both platforms, but Dreamcast provided an opportunity for Capcom to get a cost-effective arcade platform (NAOMI) and a home console that'd allow for effortless porting (Dreamcast); remember by the late '90s their arcade side was hurting due to the failure of the CPS3 and Capcom wanted to jump ship immediately. NAOMI presented the perfect opportunity in terms of being great at 3D AND 2D graphics, so it worked out great for them and Sega.
One of the only other games I've put some time into is Karous; excellent soundtrack there. Like I said, I need time with more games and some of the best games got ported to other systems just a few years later (Sonic Adventure, Crazy Taxi 1 & 2, Rez etc.), but I would definitely say it's within my Top 10 without a doubt.
You'll have to explain this, because I can't picture anything Dreamcast did outside of (for the time) biggest push for online gaming, that MegaDrive and Saturn didn't already do. Style-wise Sega's 1P stayed generally the same if not got even weirder with some games (Seaman, Segagaga etc.). It had a lot of fighters just like Saturn, ample amount of shmups (also like Saturn, and MegaDrive), arguably more 3P support than Saturn (kinda iffy; it definitely had more Western 3P support than Saturn, but maybe less Japanese 3P support), great marketing campaign etc.
It's one thing if MegaDrive & Saturn are better in your eyes but pinning all of modern gaming's problems on Dreamcast truly makes no sense. Dreamcast was really the last console IMO that represented the Old Era of gaming, with some ideas to bridge it to the New Era. If you want to actually pin where some of modern gaming's more questionable stuff started you should probably look to PS2, OG Xbox or Gamecube tho IMO even those are kind of a stretch.
A lot of modern gaming's more persistent issues, I think the majority would agree, really started to begin with 360/PS3/Wii generation, well after Dreamcast.
There are exclusives on Sega consoles I enjoy more than most exclusives on any Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft console. When people talk about how great these systems are, it's usually because of the games, not how many units the console sold or if the platform holder is still around.
Another reason they talk about how great these systems are is because of the culture they fostered. There's just a certain vibe/atmosphere to Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, Neo-Geo, PC-Engine etc. that you won't get on other platforms from Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo etc. Having that variety is a great thing in the industry especially for gamers who play on more than one platform.
Capcom will always get a bye from me following their support for the Dreamcast.
It was years ago, a senior figure was interviewed by either the Official UK DC magazine or DC:UK and stated that "Capcom is determined that the Dreamcast will succeed, even if we have to do it ourselves"
'90s Capcom is so interesting because by the mid-90s it almost felt like there were two sides of the company; the old-school side that grew up with arcades and arcade-style games, and the new emerging side that was pushing for more story-driven, single-player polygonal experiences. It's very clear the former grew a very close bond with Sega and went that direction, while the latter ended up preferring Sony.
That said, games of both types would come to both platforms, but Dreamcast provided an opportunity for Capcom to get a cost-effective arcade platform (NAOMI) and a home console that'd allow for effortless porting (Dreamcast); remember by the late '90s their arcade side was hurting due to the failure of the CPS3 and Capcom wanted to jump ship immediately. NAOMI presented the perfect opportunity in terms of being great at 3D AND 2D graphics, so it worked out great for them and Sega.
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MadchesterManc
Member
Dreamcast is an immaculate console so long as you ignore the controller
SpiceRacz
Member
Not the best console ever. The software was too arcade-oriented imo. It does have some of my favorite games of all time though: JGR, Virtua Tennis, Shenmue, Crazy Taxi.
Also, Soul Calibur doesn't get mentioned enough among the best launch games of all time. That game was incredible at the time.
Also, Soul Calibur doesn't get mentioned enough among the best launch games of all time. That game was incredible at the time.
SkylineRKR
Member
Saturn was a better console from the outset. For me it also beats the PSX. Saturn was durable, was the best looking system (I really, really like the jet black oval saturn with 2 lights... the revision looked cheaper). Silent, kept reading CDs (my PSX I had to turn upside down after some 2 or 3 years). Perhaps I lucked out but my Saturn lasted 10 years and might still do. I loved to put audio cd's in it, the starship theme was awesome and it sounded crisp.
Saturn felt more durable than DC, and PSX. Also had internal memory and while some games ate a lot I could generally store more on it than on a VMU or memorycard. The battery would die though (but I don't think the saves would wipe, you had to replace it while powered on). Saturn also had a cart slot... with the 4 in 1 your system was region free, had a whopping amount of storage, boosted certain games with added RAM and you could cheat. Its probably the best peripheral ever. This made Saturn a dream for importers. No hardware mod needed, just a cart you would need for extra RAM anyway.
I think the library of Saturn is in some ways better than DC too. Saturn still enjoyed AAA support (the top tier games of 1995 era) when it launched. Had football games, like FIFA and WWS. Saturn basically had everything the PSX had for its first 2 years or so. Saturn 3D however looked considerably worse overall. But some games pushed higher res and framerates. I remember I prefered the Saturn version of RE1, which isn't a popular opinion but it loaded faster, had higher res backgrounds I think and battle mode. But when you imported, the Saturn had many gems. I topped out with a collection of about 80 games. I played all of them, most of them were amazing.
Its a tough call. I love both DC and Saturn, but Saturn felt more premium for sure. Both systems are high on my list.
Saturn felt more durable than DC, and PSX. Also had internal memory and while some games ate a lot I could generally store more on it than on a VMU or memorycard. The battery would die though (but I don't think the saves would wipe, you had to replace it while powered on). Saturn also had a cart slot... with the 4 in 1 your system was region free, had a whopping amount of storage, boosted certain games with added RAM and you could cheat. Its probably the best peripheral ever. This made Saturn a dream for importers. No hardware mod needed, just a cart you would need for extra RAM anyway.
I think the library of Saturn is in some ways better than DC too. Saturn still enjoyed AAA support (the top tier games of 1995 era) when it launched. Had football games, like FIFA and WWS. Saturn basically had everything the PSX had for its first 2 years or so. Saturn 3D however looked considerably worse overall. But some games pushed higher res and framerates. I remember I prefered the Saturn version of RE1, which isn't a popular opinion but it loaded faster, had higher res backgrounds I think and battle mode. But when you imported, the Saturn had many gems. I topped out with a collection of about 80 games. I played all of them, most of them were amazing.
Its a tough call. I love both DC and Saturn, but Saturn felt more premium for sure. Both systems are high on my list.
cireza
Banned
I find that Dreamcast was actually following the steps of the Saturn in terms of games, and added the online feature for some of them. But otherwise, the spirit was still the same.
Badlucktroll
Member
SNK, Capcom, and Sega should have merged back then. Would he a huge force to be reckoned with, maybe even today.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Not sure why they haven't done this yet. Ikaruga has already been ported to PC, and Radiant Silvergun has been ported to Xbox 360. Even though I own the physical copy of Radiant Silvergun on Saturn, I'd very much buy a digital PC copy.
manfestival
Member
Shame we still do not have a proper powerstone sequel. I would accept a stop-gap remaster/remake but still want that sequel
InfiniteCombo
Banned
As a long time Capcom fan, I've never seen it analyzed/stated like this. It's a fantastic take.
Captain Toad
Banned
SNK and Sega? Blind leading the blind.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
This is what comes straight into my head (and the music) when hear about the new covid variant.
Jme
Member
Just wanted to point out that the SNES/Genesis had the X-Band for online play. Although it was 3rd party.
Atari Jaguar had a dial-up modem and worked ok except for being the Jaguar
Saturn had a dial-up modem as well and worked great with Bomberman, Duke Nukem, Sega Rally, etc.
Dreamcast/Xbox/PS2 era all brought about modern-ish online play in a real way for sure... but there were many more predecessors than the Famicom's fax function
Atari Jaguar had a dial-up modem and worked ok except for being the Jaguar
Saturn had a dial-up modem as well and worked great with Bomberman, Duke Nukem, Sega Rally, etc.
Dreamcast/Xbox/PS2 era all brought about modern-ish online play in a real way for sure... but there were many more predecessors than the Famicom's fax function
captainraincoat
Banned
If sega had their head screwed on we probably would have the big 2 still duking it out (sega and Nintendo) and we probably wouldn’t have Sony or xbox but it just goes to show you if you have your head up your own ass you can lose your entire userbase
darkangel-212559
Banned
It's funny how many are mentioning how Arcadey the DC was and while that it was true, I think it's a mistake to make it that core focus.
Headhunter, Cosmic Smash, Seaman, SOA, the various horror games. The Dreamcast was diverse.
I miss those days when SNK and Sega still felt relevant. NGPC and the DC were just amazing times.
Headhunter, Cosmic Smash, Seaman, SOA, the various horror games. The Dreamcast was diverse.
I miss those days when SNK and Sega still felt relevant. NGPC and the DC were just amazing times.
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darkangel-212559
Banned
I mean Sony was always meant to make their PS add on for Nintendo. If that hadn't fallen through things would be very very different today.
waquzy
Member
It was decent, but nothing more. Next to PS2 it was dog shite.
Come On Tars
Member
Loved Dreamcast so so much. Op how old are you. My theory is anyone near my age (35) is insanely nostalgic for Dreamcast.
ColonialRaptor
Member
Yep Dreamcast is probably my favorite nostalgia filled console of all time as well. Nothing comes close to the fun I had on that thing. I put more hours into that than even the N64.
i thought this also. 37 here. Yah yah yah yah yah (crazy taxi ref)
i thought this also. 37 here. Yah yah yah yah yah (crazy taxi ref)
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InfiniteCombo
Banned
Look, I think the PS2 is the greatest console of all time, and to be honest it's not even close. I've stated multiple times in multiple threads as to why the PS2 still reigns supreme, to this day.
But "dog shite" might be a bit harsh, no? Not only that, I'll take it to the next level and say the Dreamcast was a fun console with a great library. Especially considering how short its actual lifespan was.
ReBurn
Gold Member
Nothing else felt quite like Sega during that time. Their arcade games were great and the 60 FPS ports to Dreamcast brought that feeling home so faithfully. I often wonder what might have happened had they not almost gone under.
I don't think it was the best console. But it definitely hit a lot of high points. The controllers were bulky, uncomfortable and fragile. It detracted a lot from the experience.
I don't think it was the best console. But it definitely hit a lot of high points. The controllers were bulky, uncomfortable and fragile. It detracted a lot from the experience.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Good system if you were into Sega and Capcom games.
But if you were like me and wanted some EA, Namco and Konami stuff, the system had hardly anything good except Soul Calibur. And for RPG fans, I dont think Square released any JRPGs.
But if you were like me and wanted some EA, Namco and Konami stuff, the system had hardly anything good except Soul Calibur. And for RPG fans, I dont think Square released any JRPGs.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
Just kind of thought of it while reading the thread but yeah, looking back it definitely feels like there were almost two sides of Capcom by that point; the side that wanted to stick with 2D and the classic franchises, and the side that wanted to experiment with 3D using new IP. Classic IP didn't get 3D entries until well after 5th-gen started and new IP like Resident Evil hit it big.
Also interesting is Capcom didn't even do an internal 3D game (port or otherwise) for the Saturn until Final Fight Revenge. For RE1 they outsourced the port to another studio, I think it was Tose IIRC (could be wrong on the studio name here), because Capcom had no experience doing 3D on Saturn from 1994 - 1997 or such. But they definitely saw it as their go-to for 2D arcade ports, even made the 4 MB RAM cartridge to help facilitate them to be closer to arcade-perfect.
They were one of the few Japanese 3P who actually gave the Dreamcast a serious shot, too. For as much as people like Soul Calibur, Namco barely did anything past that whereas Capcom actually gave Dreamcast a big get in Code:Veronica (which would've been RE3 if not for Sony stipulating 3 mainline REs on PS1).
SNK had a lot of popular 2D fighters including their biggest in King of Fighters (prior to that it was Real Bout/Fatal Fury) and them (as well as ADK/Alpha Denshi) had a lot of expertise in 2D hardware design that'd of complemented Sega's own. Some kind of partnership where Sega focused simply on 3D for the Saturn and SNK provided a low-cost 2D Neo-Geo-based platform, where Sega could've made an optional processor + RAM expansion cart (for higher-quality 2D games on Saturn) and SNK getting rights to port some of Sega's IPs to Neo-Geo would've been interesting.
Maybe not exactly practical, but definitely interesting.
I think Sega are still relevant today in a sense with Sonic and in terms of being a quality publisher they're among the best. But I agree that they don't enjoy the wider mainstream relevance they had as a platform holder in the MegaDrive/Genesis era or through the '90s/early '00s.
SNK still putting out banger fighters, what they basically became known for anyway, tho they don't lead in any area visually like they did with their 2D games throughout most of the '90s. That era of SNK stuff visuals-wise was seemingly in another league more often than not.