Richard Leadbetter of Digital Foundry: Why the return of 30fps console games is inevitable

It doesn't really work like that though. In the case of the current consoles, the 6900 equivalent we get in a few years time (likely something similar to a 7700XT) will have better RT performance and fit in a much more compact package than a 6900 at launch. Plus, $1200 would likely be a stretch with the power requirements and cooling that would be needed.

I just added the price, but the reality is they don't need it to be as profit margin friendly as the 6900 since they make money of the game sales. There has to be extreme profit baked into the 6900. Similar to how the RTX 2070 by itself is 500 dollars and is equivalent to the PS5 standard.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
@ Black_Stride Black_Stride what used up mining 3080 or 3090 did you find for $500 and $700 respectively?

ebay/craigs/newegg/everywhere?
We are literally littered with 5-700 dollar GA102s.
Newegg refurb if you are worried about memory being blown, cuz atleast you "kinda" know they tested it.
ebay/craigs if you want the best deal but can basically never be sure if the card was abused or not.
RTX 3080'12G if you want the best chance of having a really good deal....they came out with the latest version of LHR so were never popular with miners, but are still "worthless" so their price is as low if not lower than that of the RTX 3080'10G
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
I still believe theres performance mode for current gen only games.

If cross gen games have at least 1 fidelity mode and 1 performance mode ...
Theres no reason curren game games wont have a performance mode, since the default mode would be fidelity.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
ebay/craigs/newegg/everywhere?
We are literally littered with 5-700 dollar GA102s.
Newegg refurb if you are worried about memory being blown, cuz atleast you "kinda" know they tested it.
ebay/craigs if you want the best deal but can basically never be sure if the card was abused or not.
RTX 3080'12G if you want the best chance of having a really good deal....they came out with the latest version of LHR so were never popular with miners, but are still "worthless" so their price is as low if not lower than that of the RTX 3080'10G

I didn't realize you were saying $500-$700, I thought you meant $500 3080s and $700 3090s.

Looks like $760 is the best deal going at newegg for a new 3080. I could bring myself to spend that much on a GPU and not get a new one.
 

EDMIX

Member
Well clearly, if we are just looking at cross gen games, it means of course they'll run crazy settings like 60fps plus, they were also not fucking MADE for PS5 and Series X.

As we go into actual next gen only titles, you'll see that race for the best visuals continue and that juggle between using that extra gpu power for frames or visual happen, thus you'll see that trade off yet again with those titles.

Giving someone more GPU power, doesn't mean they'll give a shit about frames. Its one of the dumbest views I've seen in a long time and its as if folks don't get its a choice for them to use the GPU for visual fidelity or for performance like with some action fps type thing. If you give someone a 4090 and they are making a MP title and want that as the minimum, we should expect the focus on 120 frames or something, if you give someone a 4090 and they are making some narrative based title, if they cap it at 30 frames to make some life like game, imagine fucking thinking that giving them MORE POWER would magically change their minds, they 'll just make it more life like lol

That trade off is a choice...that has very little to actually do with hardware
 

OZ9000

Member
This is why we can't have nice things.
With this line of thinking and constant pursuit, there is no reason consoles can'r be 1000$ each year like smartphones. Then you are always behind and always lacking and it's all miserable.
They should release the next gen consoles with a $599/650 target price.

Or continue to release Pro models 3 years into each gen.
 
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ParaSeoul

Member
Richard and DF in general are willing to flip flop on their opinion of what is an acceptable framerate is worrying. I remember them putting out something before the PS5 launched damage controlling a possible 30fps only Spider-Man,that didn't end up being the case thankfully.

 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
I didn't realize you were saying $500-$700, I thought you meant $500 3080s and $700 3090s.

Looks like $760 is the best deal going at newegg for a new 3080. I could bring myself to spend that much on a GPU and not get a new one.
2 years after launch, a generation old, no way im paying 760 for a 700 dollar card.
500, yeah sure ill bite.
700 dollar 3090s thats frikken sweet as fuck, I wish I needed one.
Im sure I could find some people that need the VRAM who I can scam offload them to after testing and cleaning them to like new condition.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
2 years after launch, a generation old, no way im paying 760 for a 700 dollar card.
500, yeah sure ill bite.
700 dollar 3090s thats frikken sweet as fuck, I wish I needed one.
Im sure I could find some people that need the VRAM who I can scam offload them to after testing and cleaning them to like new condition.

With my luck though, I'd get the one that dies in a week and then I'm out the $700. :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Congrats on finding a good one for yourself though.
 
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tvdaXD

Member
I don't understand why we need a mid gen refresh all of the sudden when many didn't even get their hands on the current hardware. Besides, it worked fine for many years on the XBOX360 and PS3. I'm sure developers would also like to just move entirely to the new platform so they can take full advantage of it, without having to create multiple versions of the game.
 

ergem

Member
900p-1080p @60 fps would be an acceptable compromise if they really want to target amazing visuals.

Nonetheless, I'll be buying the PS5 Pro as soon as it's out so I can still play at 1440-4K @60 fps.
 
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xacto

Member
It's alright, time to cut down on playing such "performance" games, there's too much drivel floating about anyway.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Current PC hardware will struggle to run UE5 games on max settings
You didnt even state a resolution, what the game is or what you mean by current PC hardware, cuz a 5600X + RTX3070Ti combo would count as lastgen hardware.
A 7600X + RTX4080 would be currentgen hardware.

Noting that TSR in 5.1 is legit good, so practically no one is going to be aiming for Native 4K.
Dont forget also that devs dont have to use Lumen, or Raytracing.
Im near 100% sure The Coalitions first UE5 title will be easy to run at "max settings".
That one Indie game from that one man development studio using UE5....yeah current PC hardware will have no trouble running it cuz its a 2D platformer.
 
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PeteBull

Member
Do we know which upcoming games are going to be 30fps because of UE5?
Maybe richard leadbebetter had some inside info he wasnt allowed to share yet? Lets see how things go for spiderman 2 and wolverine, if those 2 beauties come with only 40fps mode for perofmance, no actual 60, then we should be worried/look for midgen console upgrade leaks:p
 

darrylgorn

Member
Mid gen con what?

 

Topher

Gold Member
I don't understand why we need a mid gen refresh all of the sudden when many didn't even get their hands on the current hardware. Besides, it worked fine for many years on the XBOX360 and PS3. I'm sure developers would also like to just move entirely to the new platform so they can take full advantage of it, without having to create multiple versions of the game.

They are already making multiple versions of the game. But mid gen refresh options are just that: options. Folks can stick to base hardware if they want.
 

The_Mike

I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
blind sheep bandwagoning on pcmr toxicity... Our brains are genious. You play for 3 minutes with 25fps and suddenly 30fps will be butter smooth. It's all about perspective, comparison and getting used to BUT:
Sadly, with introduction of modes, 30fps modes sometimes suck just like in Demons Souls. It's 4k30 mode is 75ms slower than bloodborne (mild stutter aside that not annoyed me personally).
Seriously... BB feels so much better and faster to play than any 4k30 game this gen.
It's explained near the end of this vid


30fps is fine. We played out fav games at that or lower. Especially with (good) motion blur to match and low input lag.
Yeah the brain can be genius. If you tell it over and over again that 30 fps is fine, it will eventually believe it if you convincing enough.

Whats the real question is, how do you lie to your brain about the increased input latency?
 

Topher

Gold Member
Rich has contacts in many High profile developers. He is more of an insider than anyone who claims to be an insider. He has been in the industry a very long time. He certainly wouldn't do a piece on this if he didn't know something.

Of course he would. Just like he did a piece on why pixel counting wasn't useful anymore and resolution was largely meaningless and yet they continue to do the pixel counting on every single game. Youtubers make controversial statements to get views. DF and Richard are no different.
 
Of course he would. Just like he did a piece on why pixel counting wasn't useful anymore and resolution was largely meaningless and yet they continue to do the pixel counting on every single game. Youtubers make controversial statements to get views. DF and Richard are no different.
Rich Leadbetter is not a YouTuber 🤣 come on mate do some research before talking nonsense. A YouTube channel is required these days but his background in the industry goes way before YouTube even existed.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Rich Leadbetter is not a YouTuber 🤣 come on mate do some research before talking nonsense. A YouTube channel is required these days but his background in the industry goes way before YouTube even existed.

Animated GIF


I know his past. Doesn't matter. If he is on a youtube channel then he is a youtuber. Either way, he uses the same bag of tricks as anyone else to get views.
 
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tvdaXD

Member
They are already making multiple versions of the game. But mid gen refresh options are just that: options. Folks can stick to base hardware if they want.
Guess I just like things simpler, also I doubt it's positive for the limited resources available for development and for factories building the consoles.
 

BbMajor7th

Member
A Plague Tale: Requiem is a pretty enough game, but I don't feel like it's pushing twice the fidelity of - say - Horizon Forbidden West or Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart. There's an obvious difference in studio size and resource, which I think is the more likely cause. It's a pretty game, it's a not less-than-half-the-framerate of Demon Souls pretty though.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Guess I just like things simpler, also I doubt it's positive for the limited resources available for development and for factories building the consoles.

?

Can I ask what could be bad about factories building additional products. Worst case scenario they have to hire more workers.

With people starting to tighten up on spending, it seems like even component shortages might not be as much of an issue.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
A Plague Tale: Requiem is a pretty enough game, but I don't feel like it's pushing twice the fidelity of - say - Horizon Forbidden West or Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart. There's an obvious difference in studio size and resource, which I think is the more likely cause. It's a pretty game, it's a not less-than-half-the-framerate of Demon Souls pretty though.

More optimized titles will surely come out. The open areas of the world they built are quite stunning though, IMO.
 

BbMajor7th

Member
More optimized titles will surely come out. The open areas of the world they built are quite stunning though, IMO.
Oh, they absolutely are - no dispute - I just don't think they're that far and above games like Demon Souls that have comfortably turned in a solid 1440/60 with similarly scaled levels.
 

tvdaXD

Member
?

Can I ask what could be bad about factories building additional products. Worst case scenario they have to hire more workers.

With people starting to tighten up on spending, it seems like even component shortages might not be as much of an issue.
Well, the shortages are far from over. There's still more demand than supply, so splitting it again with these additional variants just makes it worse.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Well, the shortages are far from over. There's still more demand than supply, so splitting it again with these additional variants just makes it worse.

I don't know. AMDs latest chips aren't selling that well and it would now be possible to have the base console and upgraded model on different nodes from each other (6nm/5nm maybe). The upgrade or "pro" models probably aren't going to sell as quickly overall if last-gen is anything to go by.
 

tvdaXD

Member
I don't know. AMDs latest chips aren't selling that well and it would now be possible to have the base console and upgraded model on different nodes from each other (6nm/5nm maybe). The upgrade or "pro" models probably aren't going to sell as quickly overall if last-gen is anything to go by.
We'll see, chip shortage or not, I still feel like the resources are better spent on perfecting the game on the current hardware rather than developing/optimizing for multiple versions.
 

rofif

Member
Yeah the brain can be genius. If you tell it over and over again that 30 fps is fine, it will eventually believe it if you convincing enough.

Whats the real question is, how do you lie to your brain about the increased input latency?
it's hard with input latency.
but 30 vs 60fps is only 16ms of difference... but they often vsync this crap and make it 100ms slower
 

Alebrije

Gold Member
Why no both.gif

Talking about consoles.

Some games like Cyberpunk are better on Ray tracing mode than performance. The game looks better on 30 fps due to its ray tracing on shadows and better resolution in general, specially on closed areas like bars, cafes or rooms with lots of shadows sources.

More action orientes games like Nier automata are far better on 60 fps no matter the resolution and graphical performance.

So basically for a game that needs ambient and more graphics to get the player "inside" the lore and trama 30fps is the option.

Developers should give the two options ( performance vs graphical) but must focus on the best one for its game.
 
You're not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed at the best of times. Your fellow ignoramus was under the impression Richard Leadbetter is no more than a Youtuber looking for views. I merely told him Leadbetter is not one to do a piece without some knowledge to back it up, understand now 😉

He is no more than a YouTuber. Just like YouTubers are no more than media journalists. He's taking advantage of the 30fps controversy in the same vein they still take advantage of console wars with their pixel counting vids.
 
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Ev1L AuRoN

Member
If that's the case, I'm glad I stick with the PC. To me, if by next-gen, they mean RT and 1440p and above resolution, I don't see why they can't provide a 60fps experience dropping the RT and/or resolution back to 1080p. I really can't see why 60 needs to die, unless they target the graphics so high that they need to stick with 1080p30 and resort to image reconstruction. In this same scenario, the Series S is dead btw.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
If that's the case, I'm glad I stick with the PC. To me, if by next-gen, they mean RT and 1440p and above resolution, I don't see why they can't provide a 60fps experience dropping the RT and/or resolution back to 1080p. I really can't see why 60 needs to die, unless they target the graphics so high that they need to stick with 1080p30 and resort to image reconstruction. In this same scenario, the Series S is dead btw.

In a lot of cases it probably won't have much to do with the graphics settings at all. PC gamers have gotten used to games being designed around the Jaguar cores and how easy that makes it to get those high framerates in new releases. Soon PCs will have a much harder time getting to those 144hz and above refresh rates without some major CPU upgrades, though 60 would likely not be an issue with the consoles at 30. The last gen of consoles created a weird scenario where the primary upgrades there was just the GPU and memory with the old CPUs even being better at some things. Basically, CPU usage in games has been at almost the same level since 2005.
 
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Topher

Gold Member
You're not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed at the best of times. Your fellow ignoramus was under the impression Richard Leadbetter is no more than a Youtuber looking for views. I merely told him Leadbetter is not one to do a piece without some knowledge to back it up, understand now 😉

Bullshit. Factually, Leadbetter is a youtuber. That isn't even a controversial statement. And the only "knowledge" Leadbetter is presenting here is the same knowledge we all have, the performance of ONE game: A Plague Tale: R. Not even a pattern and it isn't like he predicted this beforehand. He is reacting just as everyone else is. As YouTubers do. Pretending there is no way Leadbetter would ever speculate on such matters is absurd. This is commentary, not some revelations from inside sources.
 
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Thebonehead

Gold Member
yes but gamepaly is 30. Hard to find 4k youtube videos that are not 60fps encoded.

I didn't realise that the PS5 outputted to youtube at 60, even on 30 fps.

I took a couple of videos last night and the 30fps thats encoded to 60 looks much better on youtube than it does in person.

I tried taking a video using my zv-1 camera which shows to a certain extent the horrid motion blur and it's definitely a different game to control in 30 - Feels syrupy.



Excuse the awful music - There was a conversation going on in the background. So this is obviosuly a nasty capture being off screen recorded at 30fps on my zv-1. But it's a close approximation of how nasty it looks in comparison to 60fps

 
The true reason why is when Microsoft and Sony bring out the refresh PlayStation 5 and Xbox series X2 (or whatever it will be call) they have another way to sell it. I think that was 60 frames per second people for 2 years.
 
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