Richard Leadbetter of Digital Foundry: Why the return of 30fps console games is inevitable

zomboden

Neo Member
It's like once you've gotten a taste of 60 fps smoothness it's hard to go back to 30. When I played on Xbox One I was used to that 30 fps and it didn't bother me. Fast forward to now and it feels bad to go back to 30 after so many games releasing at 60.
 

H4ze

Member
So you've been playing since mid 90s?

And tell me, did you do any other thing in your life? Because you sound like a 10 year old kid lmao
Instead of going that low to make it personal, just look at the edit of my previous post, have a nice day
 
Current gen consoles cpu's is only equivalent to downclocked r7 3700x, man, vs ryzen 7k series and 13th gen intel, even entry lvl, its at least 3x weaker same vs previous gen top cpu from amd 5800x3d and intels 12900k, so it will be normal in a year or two for 30fps console game vs 60fps pc port.
my 4790k still kicks out 60fps games
 

Gamerguy84

Member
Yea fuck that. Let us have the options of 60 vs 30.

If they have to do 30 only games better look way better than anything ive seen so far and ive seen some bangers like R&C, DS, HFW, and im sure GoW will look phenomenol
 
I expect things will go the Guardians oc the Galaxy route. At 4k30 or whatever it was the res with raytracing it looks absolutely top tier. At 60 fps, it went down to blurry 1080P. Congratulations and welcome back to 2013.
 
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Drizzlehell

Member
And so the propaganda begins. Like, fuck you, once you get used to playing games in 60 FPS, going back is just nauseating. I'd sooner sell my console and invest that money in a better PC.

 

Mr Reasonable

Completely Unreasonable
i dont see why its going to become the normal yet pc versions with a lesser cpu will be 60fps....pathetic.
If this is the case and the console CPUs are capable, then I hope Devs will cut back whatever is necessary to make 60fps modes possible.

Playing A Plague Tale - a slow game -this week at 40fps really hammered home that I'm not into playing at sub 60fps.

I no doubt will, but I've gone from "no pro consoles, thanks" to "sure, will buy new hardware for frame rate"
 

Skifi28

Member
Uh what the cpus are the main and frankly only problems with the consoles it’s the only part of them that launched immediately outdated
I don't see how they are a problem, once you're not in a windows environment and don't have to deal with high level apis they punch far above their weight. They perform admirably at 120fps on many modern games. The only game so far to show any CPU issues is the new plague tale when 300.000 rats show on-screen and guess what, modern PC CPUs will also drop in to the 30s or 40s fps on the same sections.
 
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Still amazing to see so many people really truly believe that 60fps is possible on any game on these consoles, regardless of when the game releases or what engine it’s using.

Unreal Engine 5 games are going to start dropping soon and I’m fairly sure that the majority of them will be 30fps, open world titles especially.
 

sinnergy

Member
Still amazing to see so many people really truly believe that 60fps is possible on any game on these consoles, regardless of when the game releases or what engine it’s using.

Unreal Engine 5 games are going to start dropping soon and I’m fairly sure that the majority of them will be 30fps, open world titles especially.
I don’t argue with these minds anymore.
 

Skifi28

Member
Still amazing to see so many people really truly believe that 60fps is possible on any game on these consoles, regardless of when the game releases or what engine it’s using.

Unreal Engine 5 games are going to start dropping soon and I’m fairly sure that the majority of them will be 30fps, open world titles especially.
I mean...

https://twistedvoxel.com/unreal-engine-5-1-scalable-lumen-60fps-consoles/

Epic themselves have taken into account specifically 60fps modes on consoles. Will all devs try and hit it? Of course not, but it's more than possible should they want to.
 
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Kenneth Haight

Gold Member
Still amazing to see so many people really truly believe that 60fps is possible on any game on these consoles, regardless of when the game releases or what engine it’s using.

Unreal Engine 5 games are going to start dropping soon and I’m fairly sure that the majority of them will be 30fps, open world titles especially.
Still amazing to think these that these devs believe I will be buying their game with no 60fps option. Taking a hard stance on it. I have plenty in my backlog to probably tide me over for years anyway so it’s a relatively simple choice.
 

UnNamed

18+ Member
There is absolutely no reason to not implement a 60fps or even 120fps in moder games.

Unless your game is so CPU intensive or really poor optimized. In any other case, just optimize details and resolution. Gamers want 540p/540fps? Give them 540fps.
 

PeteBull

Member
How about options? I don’t need ray tracing or 4K. Also when other devs do 3 or 4 options you can’t even make 2?
Resolution mainly affects gpu, meaning if game is cpu bottlenecked, it will run just as bad in 720p or in 4k(maybe not exactly same fps, but almost same), raytracing is mostly gpu bound but u do lose bit of cpu headroom too, not by much but probably 5-10% less fps if its cpu bottleneck, ofc all depends on how deep/heavy are rt features.

What u gonna need to sacrifice incase of cpu bottleneck, going from 30 to 60fps is for sure more pop in/much worse draw distance, and less crowds/traffict, in worst case scenarios worse gheometrical detail-things will look more sqarish, and animations too, further away animations will be 15fps instead of full 60 or even 30, many games do some or even all of the above already.
 

hemo memo

Gold Member
Resolution mainly affects gpu, meaning if game is cpu bottlenecked, it will run just as bad in 720p or in 4k(maybe not exactly same fps, but almost same), raytracing is mostly gpu bound but u do lose bit of cpu headroom too, not by much but probably 5-10% less fps if its cpu bottleneck, ofc all depends on how deep/heavy are rt features.

What u gonna need to sacrifice incase of cpu bottleneck, going from 30 to 60fps is for sure more pop in/much worse draw distance, and less crowds/traffict, in worst case scenarios worse gheometrical detail-things will look more sqarish, and animations too, further away animations will be 15fps instead of full 60 or even 30, many games do some or even all of the above already.
And that’s ok. Believe me and a lot of people will go with that in 60FPS than 30FPS. Give the option.
 

Whitecrow

Gold Member
There is absolutely no reason to not implement a 60fps or even 120fps in moder games.

Unless your game is so CPU intensive or really poor optimized. In any other case, just optimize details and resolution. Gamers want 540p/540fps? Give them 540fps.
Gamers are entitled to nothing.

Devs should make whatever the think its best, and users, atmost, vote with their wallets.

Devs are not there to fullfill anyones wet dreams.
 

rkofan87

Gold Member
All sony games have actiony and fast paced combat except maybe tlou, they should all be 60 but you have limited choices with a cheap hardware.

You can't have

High res
High framerate
Big jump in graphic


Chose 2 (or 1,5 when 4k is checkboard and not native and the performance mode is 40 hz instead of 60)
i will chose fr all the time
 

Justin9mm

Member
"On 40FPS being the new "performance mode":"

Better than nothing I suppose. I haven't tried 40fps modes yet so I may have to check that out next time and see how I feel about it.

30 fps is ok for some games, but for most AAA games on big screens it just doesn't work for me. Time for mid-gen refresh.

Ironic if it has been cross-gen games that have allowed 60fps so far. Folks should be careful what they ask for.
40fps is a noticeable difference over 30fps. It's not 60 but at 4K Resolution 40fps is an acceptable trade off on big AAA titles that shine in the graphics department. I hate 30fps, can't stand it but 40 was ok to get 4K.
 

Topher

Gold Member
40fps is a noticeable difference over 30fps. It's not 60 but at 4K Resolution 40fps is an acceptable trade off on big AAA titles that shine in the graphics department. I hate 30fps, can't stand it but 40 was ok to get 4K.

That's good to hear. If that is what performance mode ends up being then I can probably deal with that. 30fps is a deal breaker for me in most games. Last gen, I had PS4 for exclusives only. This gen I feel like I'm getting more for my money from consoles. Hopefully that will continue.

Gamers are entitled to nothing.

Devs should make whatever the think its best, and users, atmost, vote with their wallets.

Devs are not there to fullfill anyones wet dreams.

Devs make games entirely for the money in those gamer's wallets. It isn't about entitlement in either case. Gamers will easily skip a game if they don't like what the dev does. But that dev needs to make a living so being dismissive of what gamers want ultimately isn't in their best interest.
 
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Whitecrow

Gold Member
Devs make games entirely for the money in those gamer's wallets. It isn't about entitlement in either case. Gamers will easily skip a game if they don't like what the dev does. But that dev needs to make a living so being dismissive of what gamers want ultimately isn't in their best interest.
Fortunately they are not being dismissive.
They know that their audience is a lot bigger that 2 kids crying on a forum.
 

Black_Stride

do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
And so the propaganda begins. Like, fuck you, once you get used to playing games in 60 FPS, going back is just nauseating. I'd sooner sell my console and invest that money in a better PC.

Buy now.
GPU prices are actually reasonable, and all you are aiming for is 60fps so you dont even need to go too high.
12400F is like 150 dollars.

Cuz 30/40fps is here for "nextgen" consoles.
 
blind sheep bandwagoning on pcmr toxicity... Our brains are genious. You play for 3 minutes with 25fps and suddenly 30fps will be butter smooth. It's all about perspective, comparison and getting used to BUT:
Sadly, with introduction of modes, 30fps modes sometimes suck just like in Demons Souls. It's 4k30 mode is 75ms slower than bloodborne (mild stutter aside that not annoyed me personally).
Seriously... BB feels so much better and faster to play than any 4k30 game this gen.
It's explained near the end of this vid


30fps is fine. We played out fav games at that or lower. Especially with (good) motion blur to match and low input lag.
30fps is pretty shit and that's a fact, Horizons 30fps mode looks and plays HORRIBLE and it plays infinitely better at 60 and 40.


You aren't "toxic bandwagoning" for saying you prefer a higher framerate, that's just a way to dismiss criticism and you damn well know it.
 
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Drizzlehell

Member
Buy now.
GPU prices are actually reasonable, and all you are aiming for is 60fps so you dont even need to go too high.
12400F is like 150 dollars.

Cuz 30/40fps is here for "nextgen" consoles.
Yeah, I probably will do that regardless, if only to increase my comfort level for VR gaming.

I couldn't be happier about the fact that this crypto shit finally got taken behind the barn and shot in the back of the head with a double barrel.
 
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Represent.

Member
30fps is pretty shit and that's a fact, Horizons 30fps mode looks and plays HORRIBLE and it plays infinitely better at 60 and 40.


You aren't "toxic bandwagoning" for saying you prefer a higher framerate, that's just a way to dismiss criticism and you damn well know it.
what kind of nonsense is this shit?

Horizon Forbidden West looks VASTLY superior at 30. In fact, the performance mode looked so bad they got backlash for it, DF made an article about it, and blatantly said the fidelity mode was the way to play.

You’re just flat out lying to people, the game has a higher resolution, more effects and better overall fidelity in FIDELITY mode. How the hell does it look worse? Lmao :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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Tqaulity

Member
I knew this article would get some buzz here and I think Richard did a good job of presenting the important points. Most people seem to interpret "the return of 30fps on console" as somehow reflecting that the consoles are "weak". But it isn't that at all...it's still strictly about developer choice and priorities. This is especially true with these 2 examples (A Plague's Tale and Gotham Knights). As Richard says in the article:

To put it brutally, Gotham Knights' 30fps nature on consoles appears to be down to the authorship of the game as opposed to the raw capabilities of the hardware. It's only speculation of course, but based on what we've seen, the brute force power of the new machines is used to make a game that likely couldn't run well on PS4 and Xbox One work even at a basic level on PS5 and Xbox Series hardware. By extension, it's not the best example of why a transition to 30fps console gaming may be coming.
That said, there are several points worth highlighting about why 30fps won't be as prevalent as we've seen in past generations:
  1. We now live in the age where graphic options are a thing on console so developers have even more choice and flexibility than previous generations. So far, many of the taxing "next gen only" games we've seen (Matrix Demo, A Plague's Tale etc) have only targeted 1440p/30fps. But it's worth noting that 1440/30 has roughly the same pixel throughput as 1080/60fps. If you can hit the 1440/30 target, then providing an option for 1080p/60 should be well within reason unless the game is horribly CPU bound and unoptimized. Again, it's more about priorities, time and resources not HW capability
  2. An example like Gotham Knights is a silly because again, it's on the developer to simply have the option for different graphical configurations. The game is running at native 4K/30fps w/Ray Tracing!!!. First of all, that sounds like a plenty powerful piece of hardware to achieve that but it's ridiculous to think that they could not have an option for say 1440p/60 without RT for a performance mode. Maybe even 1080p/60 a la Guardians of the Galaxy and Dying Light 2. The default settings have a ton of scalability there so that example if just ridiculous and points to a rush job and horrible optimization. Simply priorities and time to optimize...not hardware capability
  3. We also live in a age where native resolution really doesn't matter except to dictate the system load. Even if a game wanted to push the graphical detail up to 11 and couldn't achieve a native 4K or even 1440p, it's a perfectly good option to target an internal resolution of 1080p and then have any one of these amazing temporal reconstruction algorithms output a convincing 4K image (FSR, TSR, XeSS, IGT, custom etc). This is in effect the same as DLSS or FSR Performance mode and we've already seen this solution used to great effect in titles like Resogun and The Matrix demo. The range of resolution scaling is literally a factor of 4x between 1080p and 4K so there is plenty of room to adjust for multiple performance targets given the same settings and detail. Furthermore, we now have DRS as an option to allow for a more consistent level of performance with little to no visual impact. Note that neither A Plague's Tale nor Gotham Knights use DRS. Again, it's there as an option and if a developer really prioritized a performance mode, there are multiple tools and solutions to achieve it
  4. To bring all of that home, I'd point to what is still the most "next gen" looking and playing game on the market (IMO) in Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart. Again Insomniac are geniuses and talented as hell and not every developer will be able to match their output. But within the 1st year of the PS5 just look at what is possible...that game dialed up settings, density, details to levels not previously seen on console while running at a native 4K/40fps+ WITH liberal use of Ray Tracing throughout, 1440p/80+ w/o RT, and a 1440p/60+ w/ RT enabled. Again they used all the tools...DRS, temporal reconstruction, and great optimization...and the results speak for themselves. With this in mind, you can absolutely expect to continue to see multiple graphics modes including a 40fps and VRR modes on most of Sony's 1st party titles going forward. I'm hopeful that Xbox studios titles will follow suit as well
In short, when you look at all the tools, techniques, resources, and the power of the hardware available....nothing points to their being a HW limitation to at least provide a low resolution high framerate option in the game. It's just a matter of adjusting resolution and settings to scale the workload. Sure as a developer you could develop a game that will struggle to hit 1080/30 on these consoles, but there will be other ramifications for such foolishness including competitive comparisons and alienated a large percentage of the PC users with ridiculously high spec requirements.

Yes I agree it is inevitable that we will have more 30fps games than we've seen in this first 2 years. But given everything I said above, I still believe that 60fps (and higher) will be more prevalent than we've seen in the past.
 

darrylgorn

Member
Horizon Forbidden West looks VASTLY superior at 30. In fact, the performance mode looked so bad they got backlash for it, DF made an article about it, and blatantly said the fidelity mode was the way to play.

You’re just flat out lying to people, the game has a higher resolution, more effects and better overall fidelity in FIDELITY mode. How the hell does it look worse? Lmao :messenger_tears_of_joy:

It doesn't appear he said it looked worse based on the quote in your post.

As for performance, that's becoming increasingly important to people.

The jump from 60 to 120 is great but not nearly as noticeable as the difference from 30 to 60. It truly is a dealbreaker for a significant segment of the market.
 

MikeM

Member
Simply put, if you require all those options - You're best off just buying a PC. Not every developer can meet those demands, and games will be delayed into fucking oblivion if they try to cater to the "we need 1 million options for every game, delay your game, cater to me and give me 60fps, oh and also while you're at it, dumb EVERYTHING else down just so you can hit 60fps - I'll even play in 720p!" crowd. Seriously, just buy a PC. Consoles are for convenience.
1 million options? Literally 3 (fidelity, perfromance, and vrr performance).
I do have a PC.

I don't see why they can't continue the trend of giving us different choices in consoles but I don't mind if they don't. I just don't see myself playing 1080P games in 2023.
I have a solid PC too and agree. Why is 30fps the only way on console? Engines scale to the fucking Switch. Figure it out.
While I welcome the return of 30 fps, those two games are poorly made with Gotham Knights literally not utilizing the GPU at lower resolutions and Plague's Tale being extremely CPU bound. If you cant make a last gen looking game run at 60 fps on an 8 core 16 thread CPU running at 3.5 Ghz then you need to retire and go live on a farm.

Matrix was similarly CPU bound but at least it looks next gen. Besides, it was released before UE5 was released and Epic just held a conference this week where they announced engine upgrades that result in 50% more performance and a smooth 60 fps on consoles. They even got nanite to finally work with foliage.

But games NEED to target 30 fps on consoles because otherwise you are literally wasting half of the GPU on simply rendering frames. I think games should target 1440p-4kcb 30 fps and then downgrade to 1080p to give the 60 fps players a 60 fps version. But targeting 1440p 60 fps like Ratchet, Demon Souls and TLOU remake is simply not going to offer a Matrix quality leap in visual fidelity. Especially when devs finally start pushing the CPUs to add physics, destruction and major AI enhancements that have been MIA since 2005.

Id rather play a 30 fps game that features those next gen sims than a 60 fps cross gen game like Call of Duty. Thanks but no thanks.

If people really bad want to play 60 fps versions at higher resolutions then they can buy a mid gen console in a year or two or buy a PC. Dont spend all your money on taking women out on expensive dates, or use some of the $3,000 tax credit you got from your kids and buy a 3080. That should run everything on PS5 at double the framerate with DLSS enabled.
Why can’t there be 60fps next gen games? Who said next gen can only be 30fps? Lol wtf
If consoles go 30fps I’m out! I’ll just stick with PC then!
Yep. All this powahhh and we end up with 30fps again? I just built my PC for net $900 CAD (sold my Series X) because i’m so done with devs shoving 30fps down our throats. In a world of 120hz TVs, best you can do is 30fps? Come on man…
 

rofif

Member
30fps is pretty shit and that's a fact, Horizons 30fps mode looks and plays HORRIBLE and it plays infinitely better at 60 and 40.


You aren't "toxic bandwagoning" for saying you prefer a higher framerate, that's just a way to dismiss criticism and you damn well know it.
There is nothing factual about it. It is fine if done well. I've finished horizon fw at 30 and it was ok.
Oh the horror. I can't see anything!


Seriously. I know 40fps and 60 is much better. Even horizon finally got performance mode patched and now it looks good, so 4k30 might not be worth it.
Btu still. Calling it horrible is just garbage opinion. We played games like that for years. All gears of war games, all uncharted games, tlou1,2... all the best games and it was fine.
Just because there is a ferrari out there, does not mean all other cars are undriveable.
Have some objectivism....
and I would still say the toxic bandwagoning is in effect and has blinded people to detriment of their own enjoyment and underestimating capability of their brains.... if they just are willing to try and have some fun.
Again... don't get me wrong. if there are no drawbacks, I am picking 40fps mode every time since why the fuck not... except these damn modes always drop after I finish the game. wtf sony
edit: btw this video appears to be from launch version. Game looks better now ! crazy
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
There is nothing factual about it. It is fine if done well. I've finished horizon fw at 30 and it was ok.
Oh the horror. I can't see anything!


Seriously. I know 40fps and 60 is much better. Even horizon finally got performance mode patched and now it looks good, so 4k30 might not be worth it.
Btu still. Calling it horrible is just garbage opinion. We played games like that for years. All gears of war games, all uncharted games, tlou1,2... all the best games and it was fine.
Just because there is a ferrari out there, does not mean all other cars are undriveable.
Have some objectivism....
and I would still say the toxic bandwagoning is in effect and has blinded people to detriment of their own enjoyment and underestimating capability of their brains.... if they just are willing to try and have some fun.
Again... don't get me wrong. if there are no drawbacks, I am picking 40fps mode every time since why the fuck not... except these damn modes always drop after I finish the game. wtf sony
Look at that slideshow!

/s
 
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