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Opinion Analysis Hardware [REVISED] Sony & Microsoft Mid-Gen Refresh Speculation/Theorizing

Which of these mentioned mid-gen designs would you be most into getting (multiple answers allowed)?

  • PlayStation Fold

    Votes: 10 8.5%
  • PlayStation 5 Slim

    Votes: 50 42.7%
  • PlayStation Stream

    Votes: 5 4.3%
  • Series M

    Votes: 8 6.8%
  • Series 17

    Votes: 12 10.3%
  • Series X-R

    Votes: 9 7.7%
  • You're insane; we can't even get a normal PS5 or Series X|S and you're already talking refreshes!!!

    Votes: 55 47.0%

  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .
Aug 28, 2019
4,542
9,383
650
www.instagram.com
So a while ago I made some threads speculating on mid-gen refreshes for PS5 & Series S | X, and even 10th-gen plans for Sony and Microsoft. Since then I've been rethinking some things and retooling those ideas and I think THIS time, I might have a few magic bullets. Yes, I know there's a big chance none of this ends up happening as I speculate (or any of us speculate tbh), but it's fun to try and I've tried really looking at current market/technology trends/developments and extrapolate somewhat realistically where future developments could go with educated guesses.

Therefore, I'm redoing all of my earlier speculation and starting with mid-gen refreshes for both Sony and Microsoft. After this I will move on to 10th-gen console speculations for them both. That one will be a lot more numbers-heavy but if you're into this kind of stuff it'll be a treat.

------------------



[SONY]

[PLAYSTATION.FOLD]


>Portable-based PlayStation system capable of native play of PS4 games and streamed play of PS4 Pro ver. & PS5 games

>Built-in game controls with thumb sticks, 2x back touch sensors

>Three-part design; top part for screen, middle part for processing components, bottom part for controls

>Screen can be rotated to either horizontal or vertical (tate) positions as well as pivoted/tilted upwards 45 degrees on
the Z-axis. Screen is touch-capable and can automatically adjust settings for extended touch controls on detection
of controls deck portion's current in/out state

>Controls portion can be rotated along X/Y axis for left-handed or right-handed playing styles, or remote-style orientation
(one-handed play). Can be recessed along Y-axis to conceal/fold form factor, or pulled out along Y-axis to reveal controls.

>Built-in powerful megapixel camera

>Scaled version of PS4 spec design on 5nm process (in terms of raw performance and certain RDNA 2 features in PS5
not required here, such as USB Alt-Mode port modification for APU in regards to PSVR2)

>RDNA 2-based, with a few RDNA 3 features integrated into design, primarily some extended silicon support for SuperFidelity FX.

>In many ways a very scaled-down PS5 APU design with GCN silicon support for PS4 titles. This will allow for easy graphical
scaling of many PS5 titles that can potentially have PS.Fold ports, and creates a shared design platform to encourage cross-development
of unique games for both PS5 and PS.Fold

>Supports passthrough of image output to television via HDMI 2.0 port, streaming to smart TVs via installation
of companion app on smart TV and smart devices

>4x 2 GB 14 Gbps GDDR6 chips in PoP setup providing 224 GB/s bandwidth

>128 GB microSD at UHS-II interface speeds (variant could have 256 GB microSD capacity option)

>Single USB Type-C port; PS4 Dualshock 4 & PS5 DualSense controller-compatible

>Easy transfer of PS4 games to PS.Fold

>Will have a repurposed variant for smartphone line (top-end model in Xperia line)

>$299.99 MSRP

>Early/Mid-2023 Release

[PLAYSTATION 5 SLIM]

>Physically scaled down version of PS5

>5nm process

>Lower power consumption

>Slight clock boost (from 2.23 GHz GPU to 2.5 GHz)

>11.52 TF

>64 ROPs

>64 Shader Cores (per CU)

>144 TMUs

>8 prims/clock

>4 tri/clock

>160 Gpixels/sec

>360 Gtexels/sec

>20 Gpolys/sec culling

>10 Gpolys/sec rasterization

>Increase GPU L2$ size (8 MB vs PS5's 4 MB)

>Some tuned hardware changes to Primitive Shaders and Geometry Engine

>Fundamentally incorporates PS5 architecture elements for BC in an RDNA 4-derived design

>Changed memory: 16 GB GDDR6 as 8x 2 GB, 16 Gbps (64 GB/s) modules providing 512 GB/s on 256-bit bus

>Redesigned SSD; standardized M.2 form factor, 8 GB/s bandwidth, PCIe 5.0 with CXL integration, small
improvements/tweaks to various coprocessors, decompression bandwidth adjusted to 28 GB/s hardware cap.
Custom in-house SSD in M.2 form factor with 12-channel interface, but can be swapped out easily with
3P SSDs.

>Capacity increase to 1.536 TB

>Embedded 64 GB of NAND exclusive to OS for housing OS files, firmware patches etc. Interfaced to
I/O block as 2x NAND devices, 2 channels each. The OS *does* use the installed SSD; this private
pool is present for permanently storing OS and system files, updates etc. so when user swaps out SSDs
the contents can be easily reinstalled on the new drive.

>Digital-only

>Optional PS-branded disc drive module also available for users who still want
physical game support ($59.99 MSRP)

>$349.99 MSRP (digital version), $399.99 (disc module bundle; limited availability in select markets)

> $499.99 (digital version & PSVR 2 bundle)(2025 holiday bundle)

>Will be used to phase out original PS5 production by late 2025

>Late-2024 Release

[PLAYSTATION.STREAM]

>Soft replacement/product divergent of PS.Fold and PS5 Slim

>N5P process

>Built around technology features to be found in PlayStation 6

>Native spec capabilities on par with PS4 Pro (~ 4.2 TF), with feature sets and technologies based on
upcoming AMD Zen and RDNA generations (Zen 8, Zen 9; RDNA 7)

>Very small form factor, comparable to PS.Fold, just slightly larger

>No built-in screen or dedicated controls

>1 TB storage as custom USB slot-based "micro-storage" drive over USB Gen 4 2x2 (2.4 GB/s) interface

>Scaled-down version of PS5 Slim I/O block hardware (hardware decompression limit of 9.6 GB/s, reduced
I/O silicon performance for cost/heat/cooling/size considerations, etc.)

>8 GB HBM3 @ 5.2 Gbps, 128-bit I/O, 83.2 GB/s per module in 4-Hi stack for 332.8 GB/s on 512-bit bus

>Will be compatible with PSVR Gen 3 devices (to be introduced late 2027)

>2nd SKU with bundled Entry-level PSVR Gen 3 unit and controller planned for 2028 @ $299.99, to
fully replace PS.Fold with rebranding to PS.Fold-2

>$249.99 MSRP

>Mid/Late-2026 release



[MICROSOFT]

[SERIES.M]


>Streaming-focused small-box device for Gamepass & Xcloud on non-smart TVs
via connection through USB

>With smart TVs, can also connect wirelessly via WiFi 6

>Can be used as a wirelessly paired streaming client with Series X and S systems
for local game access and content sharing

>Extremely small form factor

>Compatible with existing Seagate expansion cards

>Includes 128 GB Seagate expansion card; replaceable

>2x USB Type-C ports (1 front, 1 rear)

>Compatible with XBO and Series controllers

>Comes with a custom media remote that has cost-effective buttons
and thumb sliders for physical button feedback, though any compatible
controller, keyboard/mouse (preferably wireless) etc. can be used

>$99.99 MSRP

>Strategically meant as replacement for Series S (Series S production
will be phased out by late 2024)

>Early-Fall 2023 release

[SERIES 17]

>Mid-gen upgrade for Series X

>RDNA 4-based

>52 CUs

>208 TMUs

>2.635 GHz clock

>80 ROPs

>64 Shader Cores (per CU)

>17.538 TF (44% increase over Series X)

>548 Gtexels/sec

>548 G.BVHI/sec

>210.8 Gpixels/sec

>21 Gpolys/sec culling

>10.54 Gpolys/sec rasterization

>Introduction of 4 modified ML-accelerated "mega cores" based on CDNA
architecture designs integrated into the Shader Arrays, one for each
Shader Array. Precursor to "Task Acceleration Engines" (10th-gen
systems)

>Backwards-compatible with Series X & S expansion cards

>Simple back M.2 port (NVMe Gen 5, PCIe 4.0 x4-CXL) for SSD expansion

>Comes with 1 TB SSD, 8 GB/s bandwidth

>Reworked I/O sub-system; hardware decompression limit increased to 24 GB/s

>Internal SSD and an expansion card can be used simultaneously

>Support for Wifi 6 included

>Added support for VR via included USB Gen 4 2x2 port in Alt Mode with
GPU/APU modification for support

>20 GB GDDR6+ (offshoot of GDDR6X; developed by Micron) as
10x 2 GB, 20 Gbps (80 GB/s) modules, for 800 GB/s on 320-bit bus

>Zen 4-based CPU with a few Zen 5 features mixed in

>Digital-only

>Approved 3P external disc drives will be supported via USB connection over
one of the USB Type-C ports

>Mid-2024 release

>$499.99 MSRP

>Replaces Series X at the high-end

[SERIES X-R]

>Revision for Series X

>Same specifications as Series X

>Lower power consumption

>5nm process

>No disc drive (digital-only)

>Smaller form factor

>Will be used to phase out Series X by late 2024 (Series 17 will be available by then)

>Will become the mid-end of Series family by late 2024

>$399.99 MSRP

>Late-2022 release

---------------

Let me know what ideas you guys have for mid-gen refreshes or new models (again, for those who already mentioned this stuff before but maybe your ideas on some stuff's changed since last time ;) ). Sound off!
 

ReBurn

Member
Dec 6, 2008
13,154
4,446
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SC USA
I speculate that there will be nothing special about mid gen refreshes. If they happen they'll have more powerful chipsets at the same price because it won't be possible to refine the current chipsets enough to lower the price. Cosmetic changes mostly with a few more teraflops. They won't be focused on new features like the stories in the OP.
 

ZehDon

Member
Jun 13, 2013
4,256
7,495
815
Australia
One of the reasons Microsoft made the Series S and launched it alongside the Series X is because they looked at the current rate of hardware advancement versus cost decrease, and determined that there wouldn't likely be a process change to take advantage of part way through the generation. While the process may change, it won't bring the immediate cost decrease that has fueled the "Slim" revisions. Going the other way, and producing a more powerful console, is also not a likely this generation, as the major reason for the Pro and X was that the base consoles were woefully under powered when they launched. This time around, they've bother produced machines that are significantly more powerful in comparison for their launch periods.
 

reksveks

Member
Jun 4, 2020
4,267
3,840
405
I think you will see a more iterative hardware model from Microsoft and then maybe a streaming stick using android, xbox wireless chipset, and pre-installed xbox app.
 

Fredrik

Member
Jun 27, 2005
10,406
4,728
1,685
PS5 Slim is my first choice simply because I’m currently skipping the OG PS5. I’m jumping in mid gen instead in the hope of getting a bigger SSD. So, day 1!

Xbox Series 17 sounds interesting and I’m putting in a vote there too, but it all depends on what PC I have and how bad future games will run on OG XSX which I already have. Might skip it, but we’ll see.
 

Trogdor1123

Member
Mar 2, 2012
9,859
3,239
955
So we're totally just making shit up them I take it? I got a ps5, will probably grab a pro, but I really want a good cheap Xbox too. Give a series x digital!
 

RPSleon

Member
Apr 3, 2015
385
497
595
I clicked fold before reading the thread. I personally liked the idea of a PS5 that folds in half for absolutely no reason. 😂
 

Roufianos

Member
May 14, 2015
3,098
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645
I had no interest in upgrading my base PS4 but I'd gobble up a PS5 slim. Anything to get this monstrosity off my shelf.
 
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KungFucius

Member
Jul 16, 2008
2,149
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1,280
I don't see them doing upgrades unless they have data that it lead to more platform adoptions. These systems are loss leaders so getting PS5/XSX owners to upgrade units only helps if the people that buy the used systems jump in and start buying a lot of games. The Pro/X last gen had a 4k marketing hook. What would the hook be now. 10% better than the base model? Who cares about that enough?

My guess is that there will be mild component based refresh "slim" versions in 2024 or so but nothing more. If there is a spec update, I'd expect it from MS since they will likely be behind Sony in sales and already don't give a shit about confusing the market. In this case, I expect a Series Y that is much more masculine than the X, possibly shaped even more like a penis.
 

Azurro

Member
Jun 11, 2018
2,435
4,385
450
If we are going to continue down the path of consoles simply being a new graphics card upgrade, then I'd greatly appreciate a PS5 Pro to do ray tracing at (1440p - 4K)/60 fps. However I might have built a PC by then, so who knows, although it might be more cost effective to upgrade to a hypothetical PS5 Pro, I guess I'll see.
 

Elog

Member
Aug 28, 2016
751
3,036
520
First of all I think significant TFLOP increases are fairly useless when both consoles can hit around 1800p at 60 FPS already - massive silicon cost to increase resolution with very little visual gains (there might very well be one but I do not think that will be a design objective as such). Greatly expand RT capacity feels like a given potential upgrade path, potentially processor power for physics, expanded cache sizes and management (unified?), and a larger (V)RAM pool.

That feels like a possible path with a new manufacturing node from TMSC and would allow good BC as well as fairly clear upgrades without destroying the cost envelope.
 

Iced Arcade

Member
Oct 3, 2013
3,660
4,351
845
Canada eh
I don't see pro consoles coming to this gen. the PS4 Pro and One X didn't exactly fly off shelves.

definitely can see slim designs
 
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Negotiator101

Member
Jan 24, 2021
2,031
2,912
355
I'll be very surprised if we get a mid gen refresh, these consoles are high spec machines (not compared to PC) for the time, compared to PS4 and especially X0ne (for the time) . We won't get close to realising the full potential of these consoles for years, just no point in a mid gen refresh.
 
Last edited:

DESTROYA

Member
Jan 1, 2011
10,078
15,450
1,200
USA
If I had to pick between them all I’d go with the next Gen SONY handheld knowing full well it’s never going to happen .
When I wake up I would take a slimmed down PS5
 

VN1X

Member
Apr 21, 2016
2,384
4,065
800
So a while ago I made some threads speculating on mid-gen refreshes for PS5 & Series S | X, and even 10th-gen plans for Sony and Microsoft. Since then I've been rethinking some things and retooling those ideas and I think THIS time, I might have a few magic bullets. Yes, I know there's a big chance none of this ends up happening as I speculate (or any of us speculate tbh), but it's fun to try and I've tried really looking at current market/technology trends/developments and extrapolate somewhat realistically where future developments could go with educated guesses.

Therefore, I'm redoing all of my earlier speculation and starting with mid-gen refreshes for both Sony and Microsoft. After this I will move on to 10th-gen console speculations for them both. That one will be a lot more numbers-heavy but if you're into this kind of stuff it'll be a treat.

------------------



[SONY]

[PLAYSTATION.FOLD]


>Portable-based PlayStation system capable of native play of PS4 games and streamed play of PS4 Pro ver. & PS5 games

>Built-in game controls with thumb sticks, 2x back touch sensors

>Three-part design; top part for screen, middle part for processing components, bottom part for controls

>Screen can be rotated to either horizontal or vertical (tate) positions as well as pivoted/tilted upwards 45 degrees on
the Z-axis. Screen is touch-capable and can automatically adjust settings for extended touch controls on detection
of controls deck portion's current in/out state

>Controls portion can be rotated along X/Y axis for left-handed or right-handed playing styles, or remote-style orientation
(one-handed play). Can be recessed along Y-axis to conceal/fold form factor, or pulled out along Y-axis to reveal controls.

>Built-in powerful megapixel camera

>Scaled version of PS4 spec design on 5nm process (in terms of raw performance and certain RDNA 2 features in PS5
not required here, such as USB Alt-Mode port modification for APU in regards to PSVR2)

>RDNA 2-based, with a few RDNA 3 features integrated into design, primarily some extended silicon support for SuperFidelity FX.

>In many ways a very scaled-down PS5 APU design with GCN silicon support for PS4 titles. This will allow for easy graphical
scaling of many PS5 titles that can potentially have PS.Fold ports, and creates a shared design platform to encourage cross-development
of unique games for both PS5 and PS.Fold

>Supports passthrough of image output to television via HDMI 2.0 port, streaming to smart TVs via installation
of companion app on smart TV and smart devices

>4x 2 GB 14 Gbps GDDR6 chips in PoP setup providing 224 GB/s bandwidth

>128 GB microSD at UHS-II interface speeds (variant could have 256 GB microSD capacity option)

>Single USB Type-C port; PS4 Dualshock 4 & PS5 DualSense controller-compatible

>Easy transfer of PS4 games to PS.Fold

>Will have a repurposed variant for smartphone line (top-end model in Xperia line)

>$299.99 MSRP

>Early/Mid-2023 Release

[PLAYSTATION 5 SLIM]

>Physically scaled down version of PS5

>5nm process

>Lower power consumption

>Slight clock boost (from 2.23 GHz GPU to 2.5 GHz)

>11.52 TF

>64 ROPs

>64 Shader Cores (per CU)

>144 TMUs

>8 prims/clock

>4 tri/clock

>160 Gpixels/sec

>360 Gtexels/sec

>20 Gpolys/sec culling

>10 Gpolys/sec rasterization

>Increase GPU L2$ size (8 MB vs PS5's 4 MB)

>Some tuned hardware changes to Primitive Shaders and Geometry Engine

>Fundamentally incorporates PS5 architecture elements for BC in an RDNA 4-derived design

>Changed memory: 16 GB GDDR6 as 8x 2 GB, 16 Gbps (64 GB/s) modules providing 512 GB/s on 256-bit bus

>Redesigned SSD; standardized M.2 form factor, 8 GB/s bandwidth, PCIe 5.0 with CXL integration, small
improvements/tweaks to various coprocessors, decompression bandwidth adjusted to 28 GB/s hardware cap.
Custom in-house SSD in M.2 form factor with 12-channel interface, but can be swapped out easily with
3P SSDs.

>Capacity increase to 1.536 TB

>Embedded 64 GB of NAND exclusive to OS for housing OS files, firmware patches etc. Interfaced to
I/O block as 2x NAND devices, 2 channels each. The OS *does* use the installed SSD; this private
pool is present for permanently storing OS and system files, updates etc. so when user swaps out SSDs
the contents can be easily reinstalled on the new drive.

>Digital-only

>Optional PS-branded disc drive module also available for users who still want
physical game support ($59.99 MSRP)

>$349.99 MSRP (digital version), $399.99 (disc module bundle; limited availability in select markets)

> $499.99 (digital version & PSVR 2 bundle)(2025 holiday bundle)

>Will be used to phase out original PS5 production by late 2025

>Late-2024 Release

[PLAYSTATION.STREAM]

>Soft replacement/product divergent of PS.Fold and PS5 Slim

>N5P process

>Built around technology features to be found in PlayStation 6

>Native spec capabilities on par with PS4 Pro (~ 4.2 TF), with feature sets and technologies based on
upcoming AMD Zen and RDNA generations (Zen 8, Zen 9; RDNA 7)

>Very small form factor, comparable to PS.Fold, just slightly larger

>No built-in screen or dedicated controls

>1 TB storage as custom USB slot-based "micro-storage" drive over USB Gen 4 2x2 (2.4 GB/s) interface

>Scaled-down version of PS5 Slim I/O block hardware (hardware decompression limit of 9.6 GB/s, reduced
I/O silicon performance for cost/heat/cooling/size considerations, etc.)

>8 GB HBM3 @ 5.2 Gbps, 128-bit I/O, 83.2 GB/s per module in 4-Hi stack for 332.8 GB/s on 512-bit bus

>Will be compatible with PSVR Gen 3 devices (to be introduced late 2027)

>2nd SKU with bundled Entry-level PSVR Gen 3 unit and controller planned for 2028 @ $299.99, to
fully replace PS.Fold with rebranding to PS.Fold-2

>$249.99 MSRP

>Mid/Late-2026 release



[MICROSOFT]

[SERIES.M]


>Streaming-focused small-box device for Gamepass & Xcloud on non-smart TVs
via connection through USB

>With smart TVs, can also connect wirelessly via WiFi 6

>Can be used as a wirelessly paired streaming client with Series X and S systems
for local game access and content sharing

>Extremely small form factor

>Compatible with existing Seagate expansion cards

>Includes 128 GB Seagate expansion card; replaceable

>2x USB Type-C ports (1 front, 1 rear)

>Compatible with XBO and Series controllers

>Comes with a custom media remote that has cost-effective buttons
and thumb sliders for physical button feedback, though any compatible
controller, keyboard/mouse (preferably wireless) etc. can be used

>$99.99 MSRP

>Strategically meant as replacement for Series S (Series S production
will be phased out by late 2024)

>Early-Fall 2023 release

[SERIES 17]

>Mid-gen upgrade for Series X

>RDNA 4-based

>52 CUs

>208 TMUs

>2.635 GHz clock

>80 ROPs

>64 Shader Cores (per CU)

>17.538 TF (44% increase over Series X)

>548 Gtexels/sec

>548 G.BVHI/sec

>210.8 Gpixels/sec

>21 Gpolys/sec culling

>10.54 Gpolys/sec rasterization

>Introduction of 4 modified ML-accelerated "mega cores" based on CDNA
architecture designs integrated into the Shader Arrays, one for each
Shader Array. Precursor to "Task Acceleration Engines" (10th-gen
systems)

>Backwards-compatible with Series X & S expansion cards

>Simple back M.2 port (NVMe Gen 5, PCIe 4.0 x4-CXL) for SSD expansion

>Comes with 1 TB SSD, 8 GB/s bandwidth

>Reworked I/O sub-system; hardware decompression limit increased to 24 GB/s

>Internal SSD and an expansion card can be used simultaneously

>Support for Wifi 6 included

>Added support for VR via included USB Gen 4 2x2 port in Alt Mode with
GPU/APU modification for support

>20 GB GDDR6+ (offshoot of GDDR6X; developed by Micron) as
10x 2 GB, 20 Gbps (80 GB/s) modules, for 800 GB/s on 320-bit bus

>Zen 4-based CPU with a few Zen 5 features mixed in

>Digital-only

>Approved 3P external disc drives will be supported via USB connection over
one of the USB Type-C ports

>Mid-2024 release

>$499.99 MSRP

>Replaces Series X at the high-end

[SERIES X-R]

>Revision for Series X

>Same specifications as Series X

>Lower power consumption

>5nm process

>No disc drive (digital-only)

>Smaller form factor

>Will be used to phase out Series X by late 2024 (Series 17 will be available by then)

>Will become the mid-end of Series family by late 2024

>$399.99 MSRP

>Late-2022 release

---------------

Let me know what ideas you guys have for mid-gen refreshes or new models (again, for those who already mentioned this stuff before but maybe your ideas on some stuff's changed since last time ;) ). Sound off!
You know the lockdown's getting to you when you're writing Xbox and Playstation fan fiction.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Jun 1, 2013
9,080
4,255
850
I might take a PS5 Slim. But....no mid gen refresh for the PS5? What you have in the OP almost seems like a One S situation. I would like to see mid gen refreshes for both platforms. Even tho it does look like 36 cu's was an initial design choice, they did double the cu's on the Pro. They might can do it again. Double the cu's but keep the clock speed the same. Or 52 cu's at the same clock speeds. 72 might be too much for a mid gen refresh, lol.

I'll definitely take the Series 17.
 
Last edited:

Kokoloko85

Member
Sep 26, 2019
3,934
4,982
440
PS5 slim should be just like the PS5 but slim....

PS fold? No.

But a PSP 3 should play all your PS4 and PS5 Library but downscaled, like how the switch plays games like Witcher 3, Mortal Kombal 11 etc. Down scale graphics, resolution, effects and even FPS to play all games 720p-1080p- 30/60fps.
A bit like How GTA V was a PS3/360 game but also a next gen game.
Owners of the PS4 and PS5 will have thousands of games to access on day 1 and games they have already bought ready to download


Mid gen upgrades for both PS5 and Series X I don’t mind like the PS4 Pro and Xbox 1 X. Im down for that
 
Aug 28, 2019
4,542
9,383
650
www.instagram.com
One of the reasons Microsoft made the Series S and launched it alongside the Series X is because they looked at the current rate of hardware advancement versus cost decrease, and determined that there wouldn't likely be a process change to take advantage of part way through the generation. While the process may change, it won't bring the immediate cost decrease that has fueled the "Slim" revisions. Going the other way, and producing a more powerful console, is also not a likely this generation, as the major reason for the Pro and X was that the base consoles were woefully under powered when they launched. This time around, they've bother produced machines that are significantly more powerful in comparison for their launch periods.
Very good point about the node costs; smaller shrinks have gotten costlier, not cheaper. That is for sure. I know there is a TSMC 6nm process that is meant to be cheaper but it doesn't bring perf. increases on its own and IIRC nor does it bring power consumption reduction benefits, so it's mainly for price. So, possible next-gen revisions could theoretically use 6nm to save on costs and bring them down.

The question is where by 2023 or so would 6nm be in comparison to 5nm in pricing? There is a chance that 5nm pricing goes down more than anticipated even by the end of this year, or 2022. I think, for possibilities like that, Sony & Microsoft have rough designs in place to leverage such benefits if they see trends making pursuit of them as products favorable. If they don't, then they won't iterate on those designs into mass-market products.

I dunno if Microsoft in particular may or may not have created some expectations regarding more devices in the 'Series' line that has gone unchecked thus far. Common thought is that they will release other devices under the Series moniker. At the very least I do expect something to hit that $100 barrier focused specifically on streaming to come from them, it's a matter of when not if. But others have thrown around the idea of them releasing ever more power-increasing models per 2 years or whatnot, which never sounded realistic to me tbh.

The factors you bring up are one of the reasons I didn't put forth any PS5 Pro model; while there are some obvious spec bumps in the PS5 Slim listed in the OP they are rather slight. Slightly faster memory chips, a somewhat faster GPU clock and so forth. The biggest change would be switching to more standard form factor for their SSD to cut down on the issues they seem to be having with both the internal SSD of the regular system and the complexity surrounding support for 3P drives. They can consolidate space of the system size by basically reworking the internal soldered drive into a slottable drive on M.2, over PCIe 4.0 even (I know I said 5.0 in the OP but this is another option), rework a few parts of the I/O sub-system hardware and add a couple small internal NAND chips to the internal controller specific for OS file storage. I don't even think they would need CXL honestly since their current I/O hardware already enforces cache coherency.

Aside that, maybe they simply stick with the PS5 design outright and cut out the RDNA 4 features, keep the CPU Zen 2 but it also gets a small clock boost, and overall you can still get a PS5 Slim like mentioned in the OP for a more mass-market friendly price and a bit more power/performance to boot while being cheaper, even if on 6nm. If they go 6nm then they'll have to take other measures to lower power consumption and heat; more wattage-efficient GDDR6 chip modules, a redesign for the cooling system, possibly a different way of packaging the design together. They wouldn't have the disc drive built in anymore so that would help a decent bit on power consumption, though the PSU would need the overhead still for powering an external connected drive over a USB Type-C port.

First of all I think significant TFLOP increases are fairly useless when both consoles can hit around 1800p at 60 FPS already - massive silicon cost to increase resolution with very little visual gains (there might very well be one but I do not think that will be a design objective as such). Greatly expand RT capacity feels like a given potential upgrade path, potentially processor power for physics, expanded cache sizes and management (unified?), and a larger (V)RAM pool.

That feels like a possible path with a new manufacturing node from TMSC and would allow good BC as well as fairly clear upgrades without destroying the cost envelope.
I feel "significant" just comes down to what one feels is a big leap on that front; one thing TFs are a good indicator of (usually) is L0$ bandwidth. Compute tasks will increasingly favor on-chip cache in both capacity and bandwidth, so a theoretical mid-gen refresh that keep capacities somewhat small but can increase the maximum bandwidths could be potentially beneficial. On that note, it feels like something Microsoft would be the more aggressive out of the two to pursue, since they have dual-purposed their high-end Series APUs for gaming and Azure cloud. Plus, if they could get a theoretical 17.5 TF mid-gen refresh, they can technically use that in Azure cloud to run 4 Series S instances on the same APU for streaming purposes, that upgrades the streaming quality for Gamepass Xcloud subscribers.

The idea I had for PS5 was basically a way Sony can affordably get some perf gains (they have done this with at least a couple of older Slim-style models going back to PS1 even, with the PS One for example) while keeping costs manageable and leveraging a Slim model to wholly replace the original system in the production line. That way they save on production and distribution costs, have only one PS5 model to afford resources to, and the upgraded performance penetrating a lot more of the main market segment than the PS4 Pro ever managed in its time. And if you notice, in areas where game performance is more felt directly (pixel fillrate, texture fillrate, GPU clock etc.), it has notable gains over base PS5. Only thing I might be super-bullish on is a shift to RDNA 4; if they want to hit a lower price more befitting of a Slim model they might stick with mostly adopting the PS5 design to a cheaper process (TSMC 6nm? Or some equivalent that can be leveraged).

Really though I think the most paramount thing Sony will want to address is the SSD storage; both increasing the capacities to a new standard size, and simplifying the compatibility and management of 3P drives while redesigning the internal drive to a form factor compatible with 3P ones (that would mean a revision to M.2 card, but they can still give it the same 12-channel setup as the PS5's internal drive currently has, for example. The interfacing I/O sub-system hardware would perform roughly the same with a slight bump in decompression speed, and OS files could be stored on a private bank of reserved NAND on the PCB connected to the I/O block on their own channels; base PS5's I/O technically has 16 channels (12 for internal NAND, 4 for 3P M.2 NVMe drives), so this new setup they could allocate those reserved NAND chips to the channels the 3P drives have on current PS5, with some reworking).
I love your fan fiction that paints your console of choice getting a revised 17tf monster while the competition is stuck at less than 12.
But teraflops don't mean everything, right?...

If you read it more clearly hopefully you could see I'm using a lot of factors to guess these. Microsoft and Sony don't have the same pursuits for similar power targets. In my honest opinion, a more powerful mid-gen refresh benefits MS's larger business portfolio and operations because, since the high-end Series APUs are dual-purposed anyway, means a new high-end Series APU with 17 TF can run 4 Series S instances in the Azure cloud.

That translates to improved streaming quality for Gamepass Ultimate subscribers via Xcloud (and by that point, Xcloud would probably be using iD's Origin/Orion (keep forgetting what it's called) tech alongside what's already there); since Gamepass and especially Azure are such priorities for Microsoft then a more powerful mid-gen refresh for them fits into that larger purpose.

Sony hasn't showed the same degree of attention on streaming as Microsoft and even with PS5 as it currently is, it has several advantages over Series X despite that system being 2 TF more powerful. For example, it has higher pixel fillrate, faster GPU caches, GPU cache scrubbers, and higher primitive culling and triangle rasterization rates. The Slim idea I put forth has improvements in all of those areas and Sony seem more focused business-wise on consolidating their product portfolio range into a narrower stack of increased efficiency. We see them doing this already with their 1P software houses, scaling down devs like Japan Studio while a lot of the 1P are focusing on a smaller quantity of releases but each release being of heightened grandoise and scale.

It is natural to assume this will carry over into the hardware itself: why incur R&D on a pricier PS5 Pro that will likely reach only a small fraction of the mainstream PS5 userbase and not serve too big of a role outside of a console for that small group of players to buy, when they can iterate on what base PS5 already has, increase clocks, upgrade the memory some and (most importantly) redesign parts of the SSD interface and capacity amounts while also reducing the price on such a revised model, guaranteeing far more volume sold, especially as it would act as a replacement for base PS5?

Does that not sound like it fits in with Sony's business strategy better? Base PS5 alone is already quite good for upscaled and in some cases even native 4K/60, and is built with PSVR2 in mind. PS4 Pro was a requirement for PSVR to have some adequate processing performance, a PS5 Pro would not serve the same purpose this time around. Even so, a small spec bump gives a bit more wiggle room for PSVR2; there is also no word yet if PSVR2 will have some off-system processing capability built into it (similar to Oculus Rift 2). If so, that alleviates much of a need for a PS5 Pro.

So now, hopefully you can clearly see this has nothing to do with favoring a "system of choice" or just trying to make one way more "powerful" than the other for the heck of it. These companies still have their own unique business goals and necessitations, and that's going to reflect in the hardware they design. It already has.

Man i put so much info in your previous threads, i gotta do it again?

I really appreciated those ideas in the other threads, they were some good ones. And a lot of those ideas you and others mentioned actually helped influence me in rethinking some of my own ideas at the time. Just repost or reiterate on them here 'cuz it never hurts to remind folks what your opinion on this stuff is.

Feeling confident I won't be "starting over" on this speculation any further xD
 
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Playstation Portable 2.

PS5 slim should be just like the PS5 but slim....

PS fold? No.

But a PSP 3 should play all your PS4 and PS5 Library but downscaled, like how the switch plays games like Witcher 3, Mortal Kombal 11 etc. Down scale graphics, resolution, effects and even FPS to play all games 720p-1080p- 30/60fps.
A bit like How GTA V was a PS3/360 game but also a next gen game.
Owners of the PS4 and PS5 will have thousands of games to access on day 1 and games they have already bought ready to download


Mid gen upgrades for both PS5 and Series X I don’t mind like the PS4 Pro and Xbox 1 X. Im down for that

TBF guys, PlayStation.Fold is basically a PlayStation Portable in practice, just not with that branding and a somewhat different form factor. Power-wise it'd be around vanilla PS4 essentially, and you'd be able to play PS4 Pro and PS5 games via streaming (this is the best way to do it without having the devs port the games natively to such a handheld).

PS5 Slim I think will mostly be like PS5 already is, but with improvements to the storage solution, and slight spec bumps in GPU clock, RAM module clocks, CPU clocks etc. Which isn't unprecedented insofar as minor hardware performance changes in Sony consoles, it dates back to the PS1!

I might take a PS5 Slim. But....no mid gen refresh for the PS5? What you have in the OP almost seems like a One S situation. I would like to see mid gen refreshes for both platforms. Even tho it does look like 36 cu's was an initial design choice, they did double the cu's on the Pro. They might can do it again. Double the cu's but keep the clock speed the same. Or 52 cu's at the same clock speeds. 72 might be too much for a mid gen refresh, lol.

I'll definitely take the Series 17.

Honestly I think a One S-type approach for mid-gen refresh fits Sony's overall business strategy more than a PS4 Pro. Ask yourself, what were the main reasons for Pro in the first place? PSVR and support for 4K TVs. But PS5 has built-in support for both PSVR and PSVR2 right off the bat (the uncovered USB Type-C port in Alt Mode on the APU from the die shots, for example), and with image upscaling they should be able to take even better advantage of 4K displays as the generation persists.

So the two biggest factors enabling PS4 Pro, don't really exist for a PS5 Pro. Microsoft, OTOH, have a vested business reason motivating a Series X mid-gen refresh: GamePass/Xcloud streaming and Azure. Series X is a dual-purpose design; one use is for next-gen gaming, the other is so that it can serve four One S server blade instances on a single Series X unit for GamePass streaming. This hypothetical "Series 17", would be able to host four Series S instances, meaning higher quality streaming of games through GamePass Xcloud. A third reason would be that such a mid-gen refresh could be leveraged for just more raw cloud compute on the server side.

Sony doesn't have a global server network, in fact they are leveraging Microsoft's these days for their own streaming. There's no reason to design a PS5 Pro that's 2x regular PS5 when they can just network two PS5s in server racks instead. They know they're already going to produce massive volumes of PS5s, so why not just leverage what they're already producing at high volumes? They also know the sales split of PS4 Pro to PS4s last gen, which would be a deterrent towards a literal PS5 Pro for their own business plans.

All of this would suggest them choosing to focus on a PS5 Slim with some spec increases where logical. Namely, slightly faster GPU and CPU clocks, some faster memory, and a reworked storage solution that can serve both the internal design (as a more standard M.2 card but still able to virtualize as 12 channels, maybe through leveraging multi-channel NAND designs?) and expandable 3P SSDs, and slight tweaks to the I/O hardware, with lower power consumption and smaller form factor. That basically can become the "new" PS5 and also be used for their server instances as they expand their streaming plans over time.

What you're suggesting in terms of them doubling or increasing CUs for a hypothetical PS5 Pro, that's all theoretically possible. But I don't think the same market or business factors are there motivating Sony to take that path again, whereas some of those factors are present for Microsoft, hence a divergence there. But in terms of performance metrics that have more immediate impact on games (pixel fillrate, texture fillrate, BVH traversal intersection testing for RT etc.), this hypothetical PS5 Slim still brings notable increases in performance without requiring much outside of a more power-efficient node process and a small clock bump.
 

Trogdor1123

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For the ssd drives that are in either system, are we expecting the prices to actually drop in the next few years? They are already on pretty tiny processes so can they actually get much cheaper?
 
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Since systems are so hard to come by, might as well wait till fall 2021. When last gen systems reached year 1 they already upgraded the HDD. Maybe Series X will upgrade SSD too.

If systems are still ultra hard to get into 2022, might as well wait for mid gen news. Sony did it 3 years after PS4 and MS did it 4 years after.
 
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For the ssd drives that are in either system, are we expecting the prices to actually drop in the next few years? They are already on pretty tiny processes so can they actually get much cheaper?

I think they will; NAND prices should continue to bottom out decently while drive technologies using the memory become more prolific.

Since systems are so hard to come by, might as well wait till fall 2021. When last gen systems reached year 1 they already upgraded the HDD. Maybe Series X will upgrade SSD too.

If systems are still ultra hard to get into 2022, might as well wait for mid gen news. Sony did it 3 years after PS4 and MS did it 4 years after.

Yeah hopefully the systems are easier to come by near the end of the year. That's a general timeframe both Microsoft and Sony have given, so here's to hoping they can deliver on more prominent availability by that time.
 

VFXVeteran

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[SERIES 17]

>Mid-gen upgrade for Series X

>RDNA 4-based

>52 CUs

>208 TMUs

>2.635 GHz clock

>80 ROPs

>64 Shader Cores (per CU)

>17.538 TF (44% increase over Series X)

>548 Gtexels/sec

>548 G.BVHI/sec

>210.8 Gpixels/sec

>21 Gpolys/sec culling

>10.54 Gpolys/sec rasterization

>Introduction of 4 modified ML-accelerated "mega cores" based on CDNA
architecture designs integrated into the Shader Arrays, one for each
Shader Array. Precursor to "Task Acceleration Engines" (10th-gen
systems)

>Backwards-compatible with Series X & S expansion cards

>Simple back M.2 port (NVMe Gen 5, PCIe 4.0 x4-CXL) for SSD expansion

>Comes with 1 TB SSD, 8 GB/s bandwidth

>Reworked I/O sub-system; hardware decompression limit increased to 24 GB/s

>Internal SSD and an expansion card can be used simultaneously

>Support for Wifi 6 included

>Added support for VR via included USB Gen 4 2x2 port in Alt Mode with
GPU/APU modification for support

>20 GB GDDR6+ (offshoot of GDDR6X; developed by Micron) as
10x 2 GB, 20 Gbps (80 GB/s) modules, for 800 GB/s on 320-bit bus

>Zen 4-based CPU with a few Zen 5 features mixed in

>Digital-only

>Approved 3P external disc drives will be supported via USB connection over
one of the USB Type-C ports

>Mid-2024 release

>$499.99 MSRP

>Replaces Series X at the high-end
This isn't a speculation, this is a wishlist thread.

You seriously think you'll get hardware that's 33% more powerful than this hardware and significantly more features for the same cost as this gen's hardware? What kind of koolaid are you guys drinking?? Why would a mid-gen refresh skip an entire line of GPUs (i.e. RDNA 2 -> RDNA 4) in a matter of 3 years? When has the console ever been the first of technology outside of it's PC line up of hardware (i.e. RDNA2 being first introduced by the console BEFORE the 6X00XT line of GPUs) has been developed?

IMO, that last gen spec thread was the main catalyst for the unrealistic expectations of the new consoles as with every single generation. We feed off of looking at milestones in the PC-sector and immediately think that those milestones will be applied to the consoles and at an unrealistic cost estimation. It's simply too "dreamy" to even consider. The latest SSD NvME Samsung drive with 7Gb/sec reads bandwidth just came out and it's going for $430+ on Newegg. You are talking about including an SSD drive in a console that's faster than that and will cost ~$100? In 3yrs??

The hardware specs you listed here has never been implemented in the past - ever. The PS4 Pro was never a full generation ahead of the PS4. Neither was the Xbox One. I would personally reign in on the specs to make them more realistic to start a new discussion on this. It would make the thread way more interesting and believable imo.
 
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