ethomaz
Banned
Because they are using DXR.So why is the console Ray tracing either low quality or used very sparingly?
That is his point.
The best implementation and use of RT in games come from a game that doesn’t use DXR but a low level API.
Because they are using DXR.So why is the console Ray tracing either low quality or used very sparingly?
If you don't care about games improving visuals then sure. If all you want is to play ps4 games at 240fps then it won't appeal to you.
If you like having realistic light shadows and reflections and games actually looking more realistic then it's totally indispensible.
I have been waiting decades for games to have consistently good shadows. I want them to actually have a proper solution to the game looking good, they can make it looks smooth once that is solved.
If you don't care about games improving visuals then sure. If all you want is to play ps4 games at 240fps then it won't appeal to you.
If you like having realistic light shadows and reflections and games actually looking more realistic then it's totally indispensible.
I have been waiting decades for games to have consistently good shadows. I want them to actually have a proper solution to the game looking good, they can make it looks smooth once that is solved.
I mean that’s cool and all but that’s something you aren’t really going to notice if you are, you know....into the game. It’s the type of thing that’s only going to be noticeable in screenshots and promotional material.
we are reaching the point of diminishing returns in terms of visuals, true tech advancement in games should have more to do with how a game feels while playing it, larger worlds to explore and interact with, and things like Ai and NPC behaviors to enhance immersion. Shiny stuff isn’t doing much right now but giving companies a reason to hose you for overpriced hardware.
Accuracy vs OMG SPECTACLEOr I could play Demon's Souls on PS5 which has NO Ray-Tracing yet looks better than most RT supported games currently.
Accuracy vs OMG SPECTACLE
Gimme both GTX 5090
Or I could play Demon's Souls on PS5 which has NO Ray-Tracing yet looks better than most RT supported games currently.
I mean that’s cool and all but that’s something you aren’t really going to notice if you are, you know....into the game. It’s the type of thing that’s only going to be noticeable in screenshots and promotional material.
we are reaching the point of diminishing returns in terms of visuals, true tech advancement in games should have more to do with how a game feels while playing it, larger worlds to explore and interact with, and things like Ai and NPC behaviors to enhance immersion. Shiny stuff isn’t doing much right now but giving companies a reason to hose you for overpriced hardware.
Demon's souls looks great, but it would look better with raytracing so I don't see your point.
We are FAR away from reaching diminishing returns when it comes to visuals. YOU don't notice it, I see it every second in even the most intense games, it's distracting and ugly. If I'm paying enough attention to play these games well then I'm not going to miss how fucking terrible the shadows and lighting in general currently is. Seeing the fake reflections in Spiderman when swinging through the world is also extremely shitty.
Like I said, if you don't care about visuals, that's fine. I want the companies to keep focusing on it because I do care.
Put RT ON and Demon's Souls would run at a lower framerate and a lower resolution.
No thanks.
Not this gen for the consoles atleast.
If you like having realistic light shadows and reflections and games actually looking more realistic then it's totally indispensible.
Have you seen UE5 demo?
Demon's souls looks great, but it would look far better with raytracing so I don't see your point. RT costs me maybe half my framerate and gives me a quantum leap in lighting in return.
We are FAR away from reaching diminishing returns when it comes to visuals. YOU don't notice it, I see it every second in even the most intense games, it's distracting and ugly. If I'm paying enough attention to play these games well then I'm not going to miss how fucking terrible the shadows and lighting in general currently is. Seeing the fake reflections in Spiderman when swinging through the world is also extremely shitty.
Like I said, if you don't care about visuals, that's fine. I want the companies to keep focusing on it because I do care.
Erm, you don't really need RT to have shadows like this.If you don't care about games improving visuals then sure. If all you want is to play ps4 games at 240fps then it won't appeal to you.
If you like having realistic light shadows and reflections and games actually looking more realistic then it's totally indispensible.
I have been waiting decades for games to have consistently good shadows. I want them to actually have a proper solution to the game looking good, they can make it looks smooth once that is solved.
the funny thing is people already think screenspace reflections are raytracing. This tech is already as good as raytracing with the only difference beeing that it cant reflect things that are outside the view. But why would that really matter. raytracing cant die fast enough. just the latest pc meme.RT has got to be the most Over rated and useless tech I have seen in some time. Honestly yet to see what the big deal is regarding it.
For me techs like DLSS and Checkerboarding are far more useful techs going forward.
I mean that’s cool and all but that’s something you aren’t really going to notice if you are, you know....into the game. It’s the type of thing that’s only going to be noticeable in screenshots and promotional material.
we are reaching the point of diminishing returns in terms of visuals, true tech advancement in games should have more to do with how a game feels while playing it, larger worlds to explore and interact with, and things like Ai and NPC behaviors to enhance immersion. Shiny stuff isn’t doing much right now but giving companies a reason to hose you for overpriced hardware.
Dude, you said you’ve been waiting decades to see the shadow of a light pole. You just sound hyperbolic and borderline fanatical. I don’t think RT is tech that should be scrapped completely, but stressing it as the end all be all of next gen visuals is total bullshit.
Erm, you don't really need RT to have shadows like this.
High res shadows+HFTS or PCSS, reproduces the effect pretty nicely (The Division 1 below)
Things like reflections and global illumination can be totally improved with RT.It's a nice improvement over what we had 10 years ago, But it's not as good as raytracing and is still more often to totally fail.
The light pole is a single example, it's not isolated, every game has the problem with something almost every second. I didn't say it's the only thing that matter though, increased geometry density is also good. But RT is definitely one of the biggest improvement in graphics in a long time.
It's a nice improvement over what we had 10 years ago, But it's not as good as raytracing and is still more often to totally fail.
Things like reflections and global illumination can be totally improved with RT.
Its just that the example you gave with the shadows is a really poor one.
Isn't Optix a low level C++ API? At least it was considered that a couple of years ago. Because he's lumping that in with DX12 and Vulkan:Because they are using DXR.
That is his point.
The best implementation and use of RT in games come from a game that doesn’t use DXR but a low level API.
Well, DXR (and very DXR-like Vulkan extension as well as Optix) is the only way to do hardware ray tracing on PC.
Things like reflections and global illumination can be totally improved with RT.
Its just that the example you gave with the shadows is a really poor one.
He didn't said what you think.Huh? What is that dude on about? You can also do raytracing using CUDA and/or OpenCL. You can even utilize OpenGL's compute shader stuff to do raytracing. Vulkan and DirectX are certainly not the only options.
What did he say then?He didn't said what you think.
Just to add the quote you used from him is false.... there is others way to use RT on PC:Isn't Optix a low level C++ API? At least it was considered that a couple of years ago. Because he's lumping that in with DX12 and Vulkan:
This guy sounds like a know-it-all in his tweets more than anything else. Based on his Twitter he's a very "the only software that's good enough is the software I write" kind of developer. I look forward to seeing his custom ray tracing implementation in future Epic games, but something tells me it will never surface. His responses are the typical "blame the tools" kind of response.
That said, I would also like to hear how Sony pulled off the ray tracing in Miles Morales because it looks really good. Without a doubt they had access to hardware engineers that most 3rd party developers won't have so it will be interesting to see if they reserve the secret sauce for their first party games or whether they roll it into their dev kits. Makes me think of PS3 where Naughty Dog and Insomniac ware able to pull performance out of the hardware that others couldn't because of their access to Cerny and the hardware design team via the ICE initiative.
He talking about low access API on pcWhat did he say then?
Because PC master race.Why all the hostility? If you want to translate what he is saying it is: 'I look at the amount of RT in Spider Man MM and conclude that it would not even be close to possible to run that on a PC with similar hardware at stable 30FPS. The current generation of RT APIs on the PC platform does not allow for that level of optimization. While there is always a difference between console and PC in terms of coding close to the metal on the RT side of things the distance between hardware and software is currently prohibitive to do cool things.'
Not sure why such a comment is both surprising given what we have seen so far or weird.
It's phrased in a pretty silly way... if PC is held back it's because there are so many different platforms. You aren't held back by DXR, DXR is really the only thing enabling anyone to use ray tracing today in a product they plan on selling.Why all the hostility? If you want to translate what he is saying it is: 'I look at the amount of RT in Spider Man MM and conclude that it would not even be close to possible to run that on a PC with similar hardware at stable 30FPS. The current generation of RT APIs on the PC platform does not allow for that level of optimization. While there is always a difference between console and PC in terms of coding close to the metal on the RT side of things the distance between hardware and software is currently prohibitive to do cool things.'
Not sure why such a comment is both surprising given what we have seen so far or weird.
Maybe he thinks DXR is not useful, it has other priorities which don't like it. I don't find silly his assessment.It's phrased in a pretty silly way... if PC is held back it's because there are so many different platforms. You aren't held back by DXR, DXR is really the only thing enabling anyone to use ray tracing today in a product they plan on selling.
If DXR was gone, there just wouldn't be raytracing.. the alternative isn't a bunch of PC devs coding to the bare metal or something.
Thing is we already have tech that can reproduces direct shadows pretty nicely, from softening effect to long shadows.Shadows is very important. It represents a light source. If you didn't have that shadow then the light source loses it's effectiveness.
Why all the hostility? If you want to translate what he is saying it is: 'I look at the amount of RT in Spider Man MM and conclude that it would not even be close to possible to run that on a PC with similar hardware at stable 30FPS.
The current generation of RT APIs on the PC platform does not allow for that level of optimization.
While there is always a difference between console and PC in terms of coding close to the metal on the RT side of things the distance between hardware and software is currently prohibitive to do cool things.'
Thing is we already have tech that can reproduces direct shadows pretty nicely, from softening effect to long shadows.
Huh? What is that dude on about? You can also do raytracing using CUDA and/or OpenCL. You can even utilize OpenGL's compute shader stuff to do raytracing. Vulkan and DirectX are certainly not the only options.
Source?Oh boy. Even if that's true, so what. Spiderman MM was not even using low-level access. Insomniac explained in detail that they scaled back the RT reflection code. They used a ray-switch shader and lowered the resolution of the reflection.
That will never happen on the PC platform so need to say it. PC is agnostic and has to have general API in order to support multiple configurations. That doesn't matter since a PC will always run any console game better than the console can.
That's untrue and without stating what 'cool things' means, you are just spouting out conjecture.
I know what API's are and how they work. I'm just going on what he said. He also said that these API's are the only way to do RT on PC.Just to add the quote you used from him is false.... there is others way to use RT on PC:
- Making direct calls to driver (that is basically the most low level you can go... APIs just abstract these calls).
- Using nVidia RT extensions for OpenGL or Vulkan (games using RT in nVidia GPUs before DXR used these extensions)
So you are not exactly locked to DXR or official Vulkan RT API... of course these API makes it easier and cross-GPU... that is a big advantage for a lot of developers.
Well, DXR (and very DXR-like Vulkan extension as well as Optix) is the only way to do hardware ray tracing on PC.
And you obviously didn't understand my statement. The hardware is much more powerful, so you don't need the optimizations that consoles need in order to try and maintain 30/60 fps. These optimizations on PC would be more than welcome, but it doesn't seem possible with the million and one hardware configs.You didn't understand the point of my post. You can't optimise a black box, you have no access to what it does, you just throw it inputs and receive an output and that's it, that's a black box. That's the point, how can something be "poorly optimised" if it literally can't be optimised? His/her statement was nonsensical, as is yours.
Oh boy. Even if that's true, so what. Spiderman MM was not even using low-level access. Insomniac explained in detail that they scaled back the RT reflection code. They used a ray-switch shader and lowered the resolution of the reflection.
That will never happen on the PC platform so need to say it. PC is agnostic and has to have general API in order to support multiple configurations. That doesn't matter since a PC will always run any console game better than the console can.
That's untrue and without stating what 'cool things' means, you are just spouting out conjecture.
Then how do i see so many games where small props do cast shadows? In Watchdogs 2 even the the cord in Marcus bag casts a shadow, in RDR2 the bolts in the side of train door also cast shadows, all clean without visible tears. And even if they're using some different technique i don't know about, isn't the end result the same anyway?No we don't. How are you going to make a high enough shadow map to capture a small fork on a table or any small props? You can't. I've tried. Only RT can capture it.
Just sounds like any of the dozens of young software developers I talk to in a given week at work who can't see beyond the end of their noses.Maybe he thinks DXR is not useful, it has other priorities which don't like it. I don't find silly his assessment.
Source?
Let's extrapolate that to DirectX as a whole, shall we?
It holds back gaming, right?
There are APIs that suck and APIs that don't.
DXR is a half baked thought pushed out as API.
That will never happen on the PC platform so need to say it. PC is agnostic and has to have general API in order to support multiple configurations. That doesn't matter since a PC will always run any console game better than the console can.
All that hostility - must have hit a nerve
You seem too think that APIs are static and as they evolve over time does not decrease the distance between the API and the hardware variants the API can address? You know that is simply not true.
Not sure - given your track record on this site - I would trust you compared to this developer when he is stating that the current RT APIs are not well optimised compared to other sections of the same APIs, i.e. that there is a lot of hardware left on the table.
Are you honestly stating that the RT parts of the DirectX API set are set in stone for the next few years and no optimisation will be done? I cannot believe that is your position. And if it is not - you are in basic agreement with what I stated. So you kind of have a choice - look like a fool claiming that the DirectX RT API set will not improve at all going forward or you are in basic agreement with the developer in the OP and me
I look at the amount of RT in Spider Man MM and conclude that it would not even be close to possible to run that on a PC with similar hardware at stable 30FPS
The current generation of RT APIs on the PC platform does not allow for that level of optimization.
While there is always a difference between console and PC in terms of coding close to the metal on the RT side of things the distance between hardware and software is currently prohibitive to do cool things.'
Depends on the PC. The whole point of this thread is the limitations imposed by the abstraction layer(s) stand against efficiency and innovative practice, and as a result the hardware resources will need uprating in order to achieve parity.
Not to say that MS are doing a bad job, its just that the nature of the thing is a constant battle against "cruft", the entropic build-up of unwieldy, unwanted code that occurs when successive generations of software and hardware need to be supported.
Then how do i see so many games where small props do cast shadows? In Watchdogs 2 even the the cord in Marcus bag casts a shadow, in RDR2 the bolts in the side of train door also cast shadows, all clean without visible tears. And even if they're using some different technique i don't know about, isn't the end result the same anyway?