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News Rendering Engineer at EpicGames: DirectX RayTracing and Vulkan Optix holds everything back in PC land

psorcerer

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"
In terms of singular desktop gaming platform revenues, gaming PC is largest.
Game console segment is divided into Playstation, Xbox and Switch platforms.
"

This is cheating though, PC is not a single machine... you would need to break it into Dell, Alienware, Apple, etc... if you split consoles (especially if you split Xbox and PlayStation for example).

80% of PC revenue are various skinner boxes and not really games.
And if we take singleplayer PS:all others will be 9:1 if you exclude Nintendo.
 

assurdum

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Not the point of the thread - AT ALL.

Stick to the point. WD:L RT reflections are of better quality on a PC/Ultra than PS5 MM. Period.
Of course raytracing is better on RTX in a far more powerful machine lol, there is human logic; it's like years RTX has refined their tech, and the hardware with RTX are like 4x times more powerful of the ps5, I don't even know exactly, how can be otherwise. What I'm saying raytracing in MM is superior of the WD applied on console and the difference is embarrassing. Period (you like so much this word isn't it?). I don't even understand the point to compare the raytracing in two hardware with such gap in the specs.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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80% of PC revenue are various skinner boxes and not really games.
And if we take singleplayer PS:all others will be 9:1 if you exclude Nintendo.
You got any proof, or are you in denial like S0ULZB0URNE S0ULZB0URNE after both of you guys were completely wrong? PC players simply spend more money than you console guys. You guys complain about the cost of a PC, so you already know y'all cheap out on games too.
 
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assurdum

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Are you serious dude? Look at the first post and see for yourself!
He answered to a question if raytracing like ps5 is possible on pc and he says it takes years to direct X to access to the low API for raytracing as ps5. Opinable but he said exactly that. But obviously you omitted it. Your childish attitude is something else.
 
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rnlval

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"
In terms of singular desktop gaming platform revenues, gaming PC is largest.
Game console segment is divided into Playstation, Xbox and Switch platforms.
"

This is cheating though, PC is not a single machine... you would need to break it into Dell, Alienware, Apple, etc... if you split consoles (especially if you split Xbox and PlayStation for example).
X86 Windows is a platform (aka Wintel, DirectX11.x and 12.x API) with hardware cloners. Apple's MacOS X (Metal API) is a tiny minority.

XBO has DirectX11.X and 12.X
PS4 has GNM and GNMX
Switch has NVN

The goals for 3DO gaming platform clones has been reached by PC gaming.
 
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Panajev2001a

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X86 Windows is a platform (aka Wintel, DirectX11.x and 12.x API) with hardware cloners. Apple's MacOS X (Metal API) is a tiny minority.

XBO has DirectX11.X and 12.X
PS4 has GNM and GNMX
Switch has NVN

The goals for 3DO gaming platform clones has been reached by PC gaming.

Not sure what API's have got to do with it... 3rd parties targeting consoles do seldom exclusives so for them the potential addressable market without having to do 6+ months of extra porting work per platform (see big AAA ported to Switch a while after) definitely combines Xbox and PlayStation. We can play semantics games all day if you want of course :).

Also, home consoles being a big driver, a must have conditions for PC titles reaching the AAA/AAAA space is something that seems to me quite uncontroversial. (I am glad DonJuanSchlong DonJuanSchlong is being entertained at least ;)).
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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Not sure what API's have got to do with it... 3rd parties targeting consoles do seldom exclusives so for them the potential addressable market without having to do 6+ months of extra porting work per platform (see big AAA ported to Switch a while after) definitely combines Xbox and PlayStation. We can play semantics games all day if you want of course :).

Also, home consoles being a big driver, a must have conditions for PC titles reaching the AAA/AAAA space is something that seems to me quite uncontroversial. (I am glad DonJuanSchlong DonJuanSchlong is being entertained at least ;)).
Well did I say anything that is untrue? I didn't know the truth was that entertaining.
 

ZywyPL

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He ain't wrong, but then again, good luck with making games on infinite possible configurations without one, unified API... But given the PCs orders of magnitude more resources, the code doesn't have to be god knows how much effective/optimized, they can just brute force through anything
 

DonJuanSchlong

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Yup.
"Premium PC games" i.e. not a f2p BS were 5.3bln only.
You got any factual sites like the ones listed earlier?
I'm not sure how you are supposed to be trying to disprove that, with a b.s website?




 

raul3d

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Spiderman MM has temporal reconstruction too. Your point on this?
How is the object quality any lower than Spiderman's when their objects render at quarter res as opposed to half res?
Draw distance, I'll give you that. Give me something because you aren't giving me anything.
How about better lighting in WD:L reflections?
How about better shading than simple diffuse texture shading in MM in the reflections?
My point is that I find the rendered result of MM more pleasing, better conveying the illusion of a populated city with less artefacts taking you out of that illusion. However, MM and WD:L are different games and the developers had different priorities for their raytracing approaches. I don't see the point in arguing which compromises were right or wrong to make; it is so subjective. If you think that the raytracing in WD:L is objectivly better in all regards, I disagree.

Reconstruction: Using your video as a reference, when the cars pass by they appear very blurry, smearing the backround behind them (#1) or when the person walking by (#2). Could be temporal reconstruction over multiple frames or the way you/youtube recorded/encoded the video.
Object quality: Object quality != render resolution. Both games use much lower LOD levels in the reflections and I find that the objects in the reflections in MM representing their counterpart better.
Draw distance: Here are some examples, on ground level (#3) and above ground level (#4 and #5).
Lighting/Shading: To me lighting is part of the shading, so it appears to be the same point. Both games dial back the lighting and material quality in the reflections. In MM I can also see specular lighting (from the sun), dynamic lights and shadows in the reflections (#6). I can see cubemap reflections for recursive reflections in the puddles in WD:L which MM does not do.

To me it comes down to two different developers with different priorities making different compromises.

I know that. I work with the engine on a daily basis professionally and have worked with the CTO before on film projects. You don't have to act like I am not in the industry. I am and know quite a few people.
In no part of the sentence do I act like you "are not in the industry" or that you don't "know quite a few people". What would be the point of that? The initial post of yurinka was about MM being a cross- and first generation launch game and that the quality will improve, once developers get the hang of the new hardware. The Epic demo was given as an example for that. My post was simply to back this up, because what Epic showed was only a tech demo years away from being used in released games. My point is that developers need time to catch up with the new base line.

And you will still be inferior in rendering and performance to a much more powerful rig that doesn't have the optimizations. That's my point. The PC GPU is so far ahead that it doesn't need the kind of optimizations that consoles need and it will still be ahead and render better and faster.
Yes, sure. The high end PC hardware will always be better than a low budget fixed spec console. If this is your point, it is true without question. But I don't see the point in comparing hardware of vastly different cost and power levels. You could then also argue, that render farms produce better graphics than your desktop PC (in the same time). It would also be true, but the comparsion makes no sense to me.

#1: #2: #3: #4: #5: #6:
 
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Ascend

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Many don't opt in steam survey. So you're not going to see what's out there, which is why manufacturer sales were more reliable. Thought you at least could figure that out, as it's a optional SURVEY.
In statistics, if your population is over 250k, you need less than a 0.1% sample size to get a fairly representative distribution of the whole. Steam is way beyond that, and likely their sample size is a lot higher too.

The amount of people that opt out is irrelevant.
 

rnlval

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Not sure what API's have got to do with it... 3rd parties targeting consoles do seldom exclusives so for them the potential addressable market without having to do 6+ months of extra porting work per platform (see big AAA ported to Switch a while after) definitely combines Xbox and PlayStation. We can play semantics games all day if you want of course :).

Also, home consoles being a big driver, a must have conditions for PC titles reaching the AAA/AAAA space is something that seems to me quite uncontroversial. (I am glad DonJuanSchlong DonJuanSchlong is being entertained at least ;)).
1. Note that Dell and Alienware are owned by the same company with most of their offered for sale PCs runs the same Direct3D API ecosystem! LOL

2. Hardware PC vendors such as HP, Dell and etc follows Microsoft's DirectX API ecosystem. Hint: 3DO clone gaming platform model i.e. digital gaming platform with VHS style hardware clone business model.




Your argument is flawed.
 
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rnlval

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You got any factual sites like the ones listed earlier?
I'm not sure how you are supposed to be trying to disprove that, with a b.s website?




Most "free to play" PC games are glorfied game trials which needs $$$ to unlock extra game features and constant online connection acting like DRM.

I played World of Warcraft, Eve Online, Black Desert Online, Blade & Soul, Star Trek Online**, Star Wars The Old Republic** and Elders Scrolls Online**.

**With significant single player or co-op story componet.
 
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kuncol02

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In statistics, if your population is over 250k, you need less than a 0.1% sample size to get a fairly representative distribution of the whole. Steam is way beyond that, and likely their sample size is a lot higher too.

The amount of people that opt out is irrelevant.
There is huge problem with steam survey. People have Steam installed not only on their gaming PC, but other computers they use to. Just to have access to store in case of sale or to chat with friends. That screws data.
 
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Ascend

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There is huge problem with steam survey. People have Steam installed not only on their gaming PC, but other computers they use to. Just to have access to store in case of sale or to chat with friends. That screws data.
That is a fair point. But then again, you can also have store access through your phone. That to me seems a lot more useful for buying things or chatting compared to a laptop. So chances are that those devices are used at least some of the time to play basic games. Maybe card games or some story novel or whatever.
 

yurinka

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Right.. the Sony 1st party exclusive companies and no others.


No real game programmer would think that only Sony 1st party companies have the "intelligence" to master the PS5 - especially when it's architecture is very similar to the PS4.
You are the one saying only them have the "intelligence" to master a console, not me. I said all, they only need time. And shown Epic as the first example because they make the engine that most AAA use and for that reason they have a close relationship with the console manufacturers and PC GPU manufacturers, and they are the ones who shown the most advanced in-game technology (and running in a PS5 even if the engine will be multiplatform).

I'm only saying that we may start seeing important results in some of these Sony 1st party games because as always happened in all consoles, 1st party studios have closer relationship with the engineers of the console, its SDK, OS, drivers and so on, and they often even contribute to them, in addition to being the first ones to have access to all the prototypes and so on.

Specially if the games aren't crossgen (like Ratchet), we may see there the first big jump specially considering people like Sony Santa Monica or Guerrilla traditionally deliver over the top visuals.

There is huge problem with steam survey. People have Steam installed not only on their gaming PC, but other computers they use to. Just to have access to store in case of sale or to chat with friends. That screws data.
You can access to the store via the website in your PC or phone, you only need to install the client to play games. And it's a survey, you agree to sent this data (I did it) so I assume people who downloaded the client in a secondary PC that they don't use it, it's likely that they will only see this survey in the PC they use Steam to play because it's where they will often open Steam.

"
In terms of singular desktop gaming platform revenues, gaming PC is largest.
Game console segment is divided into Playstation, Xbox and Switch platforms.
"

This is cheating though, PC is not a single machine... you would need to break it into Dell, Alienware, Apple, etc... if you split consoles (especially if you split Xbox and PlayStation for example).
PC market install base is significantly larger than PS4 install base i.e. desktop/laptop x86 PC sales are numbered into 250-to-300 millions annual, hence my descrite GPU vendor unit sales example is the minority.
Consoles gaming market is bigger than PC market in terms of revenue as shown in the Newzoo chart posted in this thread. This is what matters, PCs out there where their users don't play (work offices, etc) shouldn't count.

If you split consoles market into their different platform sub-markets you should do the same with PC splitting into Steam, Epic Store, Battle.net, Riot stuff, whatever the huge Chinese/Asian market use for their F2P, etc.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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In statistics, if your population is over 250k, you need less than a 0.1% sample size to get a fairly representative distribution of the whole. Steam is way beyond that, and likely their sample size is a lot higher too.

The amount of people that opt out is irrelevant.
So let's take a sample of a poor population, and come to the conclusion that the whole world is poor because we used a sample size of 0.1%. I have stream installed on my work laptop for instance. I don't play games on it, but it's on there. Not sure if you are quoting me just for argument sake, since I've schooled you so many times in other threads. But whatever.
 

Ascend

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So let's take a sample of a poor population, and come to the conclusion that the whole world is poor because we used a sample size of 0.1%.
Ok. I honestly can't believe I have to explain this...
You pre-select the poor population, leaving all the others out from your sample, and then you want to make statements about the ones you left out? Uhuh. Sounds legit.

since I've schooled you so many times in other threads
Of course you have...
 

DonJuanSchlong

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Ok. I honestly can't believe I have to explain this...
You pre-select the poor population, leaving all the others out from your sample, and then you want to make statements about the ones you left out? Uhuh. Sounds legit.


Of course you have...
Going by your logic, yes. That's why it's not a good idea to use a miniscule sample size. Or to try and constitute all PC players and configurations from steam survey. Steam does not equate to all of PC gamers, but we all knew that already. 0.1% won't really help either.
 

rnlval

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Consoles gaming market is bigger than PC market in terms of revenue as shown in the Newzoo chart posted in this thread. This is what matters, PCs out there where their users don't play (work offices, etc) shouldn't count.

If you split consoles market into their different platform sub-markets you should do the same with PC splitting into Steam, Epic Store, Battle.net, Riot stuff, whatever the huge Chinese/Asian market use for their F2P, etc.
Consoles has three seperate API ecosystems i.e. XBO's DirectX11.X/12.X, Switch's NVM, and PS4's GNM/GNMX. Consoles are NOT unified with a single API ecosystem!

Try again.
 

rnlval

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Consoles gaming market is bigger than PC market in terms of revenue as shown in the Newzoo chart posted in this thread. This is what matters, PCs out there where their users don't play (work offices, etc) shouldn't count.

If you split consoles market into their different platform sub-markets you should do the same with PC splitting into Steam, Epic Store, Battle.net, Riot stuff, whatever the huge Chinese/Asian market use for their F2P, etc.
1. Consoles has three seperate API ecosystems i.e. XBO's DirectX11.X/12.X, Switch's NVM, and PS4's GNM/GNMX. Consoles are NOT unified with a single API ecosystem!

You can't run XBO game on PS4,
You can't run PS4 game on XBO
You can't run Switch game on XBO
You can't run Switch game on PS4
You can't run XBO game on Switch
You can't run PS4 game on Switch

The end user needs seperate machines for each API ecosystem!


2. PC's App stores runs on end user's Wintel machine!

The end user does NOT need seperate PC machines for each of the PC game stores!
The end user does NOT need seperate PC machines for Vulkan and Direct3D ecosystems.


Microsoft nows owns a major Vulkan API gaming studio i.e. ID Software. From out-of-the-box, Windows 10 gaming PCs runs both Direct3D and Vulkan rendering APIs.

PS; PC can run some of Switch games via emulation, but this is a tiny minority.

Try again.
 
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yurinka

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So no native 4k, raytracing, 60fps, non checkbox rendering? You can't make one single game that does this on ps5?! Yeah, didn't think so. Having a ps5 and 4K tv, doesn't mean the game running in 4k, or anywhere near that, as many comparisons have shown already. But you already knew that as a game developer? Or a blatant fanboy?

You do realize that PC gamers have a completely different mentality than console gamers. We value 1440p, 144hz or higher. Most of us don't care about checkerboard rendering or failing to maintain 30 fps. That's why we're on PC instead. Been there, done that, and I don't like limitations.
86.02% of Steam users play at 1080p or under that because this is the resolution of their primary display.

Only a tiny portion of Steam users have a powerful PC capable of moving an AAA at native 4K at 60fps with RT (or 1440p at 144hz without RT) and consoles is a bigger market in terms of revenue than Steam. This is why most devs focus on console and design most AAA games around them.

Most Steam users have a PC with humble specs that can't move these things. It's a fact that we can see in their massive survey every month and in the internal game stats.

Who is using HDD besides console players? Everyone calls you out on that, yet you keep repeating the same shenanigans. You should like llien quite frankly, and unable to understand reality vs a Sony fanboy. You never see Xbox fanboys try and shit on PC players, because they aren't delusional in their thought process. Find me a high end PC gamer still using HDD as main drive. I'm wait and see if you can back up your b.s.
The big majority of PC users use HDD, the PC players with high end PCs are a tiny majority. And as Tim Sweeney said there's not match in PC to the I/O solution found in the PS5 with that SSD, the whole I/O system and optimized memory management to remove many bottlenecks. Plus as sai
Consoles has three seperate API ecosystems i.e. XBO's DirectX11.X/12.X, Switch's NVM, and PS4's GNM/GNMX. Consoles are NOT unified with a single API ecosystem!

Try again.
1. Consoles has three seperate API ecosystems i.e. XBO's DirectX11.X/12.X, Switch's NVM, and PS4's GNM/GNMX. Consoles are NOT unified with a single API ecosystem!

You can't run XBO game on PS4,
You can't run PS4 game on XBO
You can't run Switch game on XBO
You can't run Switch game on PS4
You can't run XBO game on Switch
You can't run PS4 game on Switch

The end user needs seperate machines for each API ecosystem!


2. PC's App stores runs on end user's Wintel machine!

The end user does NOT need seperate PC machines for each of the PC game stores!
The end user does NOT need seperate PC machines for Vulkan and Direct3D ecosystems.


Microsoft nows owns a major Vulkan API gaming studio i.e. ID Software. From out-of-the-box, Windows 10 gaming PCs runs both Direct3D and Vulkan rendering APIs.

PS; PC can run some of Switch games via emulation, but this is a tiny minority.

Try again.
I think you quoted (twice) the wrong post or are smoking something weird. I didn't say anything about APIs in that post.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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86.02% of Steam users play at 1080p or under that because this is the resolution of their primary display.

Only a tiny portion of Steam users have a powerful PC capable of moving an AAA at native 4K at 60fps with RT (or 1440p at 144hz without RT) and consoles is a bigger market in terms of revenue than Steam. This is why most devs focus on console and design most AAA games around them.

Most Steam users have a PC with humble specs that can't move these things. It's a fact that we can see in their massive survey every month and in the internal game stats.


The big majority of PC users use HDD, the PC players with high end PCs are a tiny majority. And as Tim Sweeney said there's not match in PC to the I/O solution found in the PS5 with that SSD, the whole I/O system and optimized memory management to remove many bottlenecks. Plus as sai


I think you quoted (twice) the wrong post or are smoking something weird. I didn't say anything about APIs in that post.
Why do you care about what PC players have anyways? Its almost like a jealousy thing when you console warriors try and downplay PC. The facts are, PC has much better hardware that can push higher framerates, higher resolution, better textures, modding, etc. Ps5 can barely maintain 60fps in crossgen games, and here you are trying to downplay PC's that can run more than double or triple that.


Please find me a gaming computer that you can buy right now, that is running the OS on a HDD. Even cheapo laptops from several years ago come with SSD as standard. There are way more PC gamers with SSD's than there are ps5's out in the wild. Don't even mention Tim Sweenie, as all of that was debunked by Epic China. Why are all multiplatform games multitudes better on PC?


I seriously don't believe you are a game developer, when you are oblivious to these facts... Unless you develop mobile games??
 
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Ascend

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Those AMD threads must have hurt your feelings big time. Have a great day, hope you feel better.
Your passive aggressiveness is extremely transparent. Not surprising. I guess it's the only way you can pretend that your posts have any substance. I mean...;

Why do you care about what PC players have anyways? Its almost like a jealousy thing when you console warriors try and downplay PC. The facts are, PC has much better hardware that can push higher framerates, higher resolution, better textures, modding, etc. Ps5 can barely maintain 60fps in crossgen games, and here you are trying to downplay PC's that can run more than double or triple that.


Please find me a gaming computer that you can buy right now, that is running the OS on a HDD. Even cheapo laptops from several years ago come with SSD as standard. There are way more PC gamers with SSD's than there are ps5's out in the wild. Don't even mention Tim Sweenie, as all of that was debunked by Epic China. Why are all multiplatform games multitudes better on PC?


I seriously don't believe you are a game developer, when you are oblivious to these facts... Unless you develop mobile games??
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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Your passive aggressiveness is extremely transparent. Not surprising. I guess it's the only way you can pretend that your posts have any substance. I mean...;





I would put you on ignore long time ago, but your constant defending certain things in some threads are like finding a gold mine. But your post has zero substance, and is unrelated to the thread, so I'll leave you be.
 

itsjustJEFF

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OT: As he's a rendering engineer I'll go out on a limb and say he has a working understanding of what he's saying... and not just spouting off.

RT is a cool piece of tech, but I don't think we're there yet. I don't think they've completely wrapped their heads around it yet. But, you can't blame them for bringing it out already, this is the only way for it to get to where it needs to be. The more hands on the tech, the better. There are a lot of clever engineers out there.
 
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Ascend

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I would put you on ignore long time ago, but your constant defending certain things in some threads are like finding a gold mine. But your post has zero substance, and is unrelated to the thread, so I'll leave you be.
Your personal attacks on everyone that disagrees with you is what is unrelated to not only the thread, but to NeoGAF as a whole. You have no business calling anyone out on posts with no substance when all you have as ammo is slander.

OT: As he's a rendering engineer I'll go out on a limb and say he has a working understanding of what he's saying... and not just spouting off.
This. Things have improved quite a bit for PC, but they are not on the level of console. Technically, I doubt they can be, because consoles are fixed platforms, while PCs can have thousands of different configurations. Some standardizing is necessary, and that always comes at the cost of efficiency.

RT is a cool piece of tech, but I don't think we're there yet. I don't think they've completely wrapped their heads around it yet. But, you can't blame them for bringing it out already, this is the only way for it to get to where it needs to be. The more hands on the tech, the better. There are a lot of clever engineers out there.
This is true. And the best place to do it is the consoles, exactly because it is a fixed platform that can be optimized for. Not everything is about brute force, which PC gamers love to brag about.
 
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S0ULZB0URNE

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In terms of singular desktop gaming platform revenues, gaming PC is largest.

Game console segment is divided into Playstation, Xbox and Switch platforms.

Reference
Yeah you aren't reading what I am posting....

is this a "no u"?
What
 
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assurdum

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Why do you care about what PC players have anyways? Its almost like a jealousy thing when you console warriors try and downplay PC. The facts are, PC has much better hardware that can push higher framerates, higher resolution, better textures, modding, etc. Ps5 can barely maintain 60fps in crossgen games, and here you are trying to downplay PC's that can run more than double or triple that.


Please find me a gaming computer that you can buy right now, that is running the OS on a HDD. Even cheapo laptops from several years ago come with SSD as standard. There are way more PC gamers with SSD's than there are ps5's out in the wild. Don't even mention Tim Sweenie, as all of that was debunked by Epic China. Why are all multiplatform games multitudes better on PC?


I seriously don't believe you are a game developer, when you are oblivious to these facts... Unless you develop mobile games??
Why are you so angry?
 

DonJuanSchlong

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Your personal attacks on everyone that disagrees with you is what is unrelated to not only the thread, but to NeoGAF as a whole. You have no business calling anyone out on posts with no substance when all you have as ammo is slander.
Ironic coming from you and that AMD thread, as you attacked everyone who disagree with you, and there were several of us... How am I attacking anyone personally? Saying PC has better hardware is now attacking people?! Holy sensitivity. You can try and twist things all you want, but I simply stated facts. I'm sorry if that has offended you or anyone though.


Why are you so angry?
Huh, what? I'm not angry lol
 

Panajev2001a

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Consoles has three seperate API ecosystems i.e. XBO's DirectX11.X/12.X, Switch's NVM, and PS4's GNM/GNMX. Consoles are NOT unified with a single API ecosystem!

Try again.

Not sure how that matters... again, same as including other interesting but not relevant trivia into the discussion.
 

Lethal01

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OT: As he's a rendering engineer I'll go out on a limb and say he has a working understanding of what he's saying... and not just spouting off.

RT is a cool piece of tech, but I don't think we're there yet. I don't think they've completely wrapped their heads around it yet. But, you can't blame them for bringing it out already, this is the only way for it to get to where it needs to be. The more hands on the tech, the better. There are a lot of clever engineers out there.

We've wrapped our heads around it as much as we've wrapped our head around rasterization...
It's just expensive.
 

VFXVeteran

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This. Things have improved quite a bit for PC, but they are not on the level of console. Technically, I doubt they can be, because consoles are fixed platforms, while PCs can have thousands of different configurations. Some standardizing is necessary, and that always comes at the cost of efficiency.

This is what kills me about most of the Sony boys. It doesn't matter at what cost the game engine comes at when concerning the PC because it's most powerful hardware blasts right through it and 100% of the time outshines every single console available. You can pick up ANY 3rd party game and compare it to the PC and the PC will have settings that CAN'T RUN ON A CONSOLE.

Your only response to this should be - agreed.
 

Ascend

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Yeah him and his gf keep off point quoting me.
That is their whole strategy. They can't argue the point so they dance around it, throw some backhanded insults and pretend they won...



This is what kills me about most of the Sony boys. It doesn't matter at what cost the game engine comes at when concerning the PC because it's most powerful hardware blasts right through it and 100% of the time outshines every single console available. You can pick up ANY 3rd party game and compare it to the PC and the PC will have settings that CAN'T RUN ON A CONSOLE.

Your only response to this should be - agreed.
I was talking specifically about optimization, not about the resulting graphics. That is my bad for not clarifying. It didn't come out the way I was thinking about it.
PC hardware has always been more capable than consoles pretty much. But consoles is where much innovation happens to run things more efficiently, exactly because consoles are limited. PC on the other hand might get some benefits because the power of the consoles sometimes simply isn't enough, no matter how much innovation you throw at it.
So... I can say that I actually agree and there is no discussing your main point. Kinda funny that you think of me as a Sony boy though lol. That is hilarious, considering I was one of the few saying that the XSX was a stronger console than the PS5, and actually got thread-banned from the speculation thread and got multiple warnings for triggering a bunch of people. But ok.

Too many of you accuse me of a bunch of things. I've been a Sony boy, an Xbot, an AMD fan... Just FYI, I have an Xbox One and do not plan on getting neither the PS5 nor the Xbox Series S/X anytime soon. I did just order a Nintendo Switch, and, I will likely be upgrading my graphics card next year. And yes, it will be AMD, because I vote with my money for what I want to see in the general market rather than drooling over the shiniest new toy that everyone else is drooling over.
I guess someone that does not follow the pack will always get some hate.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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This is what kills me about most of the Sony boys. It doesn't matter at what cost the game engine comes at when concerning the PC because it's most powerful hardware blasts right through it and 100% of the time outshines every single console available. You can pick up ANY 3rd party game and compare it to the PC and the PC will have settings that CAN'T RUN ON A CONSOLE.

Your only response to this should be - agreed.
Exactly. You can't expect AMD to suddenly pull out some secret sauce and consoles suddenly are the cream of the crop, defacto of God-tier hardware, unlike what some of the fanboys in the AMD thread would like you to believe. They haven't been able to do it on PC this gen, especially as raytracing is the biggest thing since sliced bread. Maybe AMD will get it right with the next consoles or RDNA 3. Their cpu's on the other hand, are amazing.
 

DonJuanSchlong

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Is it not? SSD's been around, so nothing new there, as storage has forever been getting faster and faster. The only real big thing in both pc and console space, is raytracing. We haven't had lighting and reflections like that, ever. Well, it's not new to PC, but new to consoles and AMD. Or course you wouldn't find raytracing amazing, unless it beat Nvidia in RT, so there's that.


Also, lose the grudge please. I'm not sure why you are constantly quoting me, ever since that schooling in the other thread.
 
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Ascend

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Is it not?
No. It's not the greatest thing since sliced bread, anymore than tessellation was the greatest thing since sliced bread, or anymore than bump mapping was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

SSD's been around, so nothing new there, as storage has forever been getting faster and faster.
I'm not sure why you're bringing up SSDs.

The only real big thing in both pc and console space, is raytracing.
Oh so that's why... I'd say that Game Pass is bigger than RT, but whatever. I guess for you that doesn't count. I'll give you another one. Vulkan. Let me guess. That one doesn't count either... What about machine learning...? Hm... Doesn't count either, unless it's DLSS, Am I Rite?

We haven't had lighting and reflections like that, ever.
So...? New techniques for real-time graphics are always evolving. RT is on everyone's radar simply because nVidia shoved it down everyone's throats.
RT is not new at all by the way, since you're counting SSDs and whatnot... RT has been around since the 1970s... It's new to modern games, just like ML, the new APIs, and yes, even SSDs.

Well, it's not new to PC, but new to consoles and AMD.
It can all depend on what your definition of 'new' is. It's still new to PC, considering the games that support it and the amount of people that can actually use it. In fact, 4K is arguably still new to gaming in general.

Or course you wouldn't find raytracing amazing, unless it beat Nvidia in RT, so there's that.
Uhuh... It doesn't work like that. The performance hit is still too high compared to the visual improvement that it offers. You only think like that because your own mind works that way, and you project your own aggressive fanaticism onto others.

Also, lose the grudge please. I'm not sure why you are constantly quoting me
If you stopped posting stupidity, I might.

ever since that schooling in the other thread.
 

rnlval

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I think you quoted (twice) the wrong post or are smoking something weird. I didn't say anything about APIs in that post.



1. Consoles has three seperate API ecosystems i.e. XBO's DirectX11.X/12.X, Switch's NVM, and PS4's GNM/GNMX. Consoles are NOT unified with a single API ecosystem!

You can't run XBO game on PS4,
You can't run PS4 game on XBO
You can't run Switch game on XBO
You can't run Switch game on PS4
You can't run XBO game on Switch
You can't run PS4 game on Switch

The end user needs seperate machines for each API ecosystem!

In terms of game title interoperability, API ecosystem plays a role in the consumer market!



2. PC's App stores runs on end user's Wintel machine!

The end user does NOT need seperate PC machines for each of the PC game stores!
The end user does NOT need seperate PC machines for Vulkan and Direct3D ecosystems.


Microsoft nows owns a major Vulkan API gaming studio i.e. ID Software. From out-of-the-box, Windows 10 gaming PCs runs both Direct3D and Vulkan rendering APIs.


Try again.
 
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