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News Rendering Engineer at EpicGames: DirectX RayTracing and Vulkan Optix holds everything back in PC land

magnumpy

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INACCEPTABLKE!!!

console homogenization clearly remarks an end to all the reay traced malarky and forever fps of all time ITS JUSTY SO OBVIOUS :messenger_confounded:
 

DonJuanSchlong

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Yes, I know maths, I'm a game programmer. I mentioned the numbers of 'Primary Display Resolution', which is the resolution of the main dispay that people has.

You are showing the resolution of multiple displays combined. The users of your numbers are also included in my numbers.
So why do more than 75% of PC gamers use a single display of 1080p, 1440, or 4K. As well as multiple displays? 90% of consoles run games at 1080p or much lower. You forgot to mention that for some odd reason though.... But hey, we can all see what you are trying to do here, and it brings great doubt to you being a game developer. You got anything you've worked on? Or was that just as believable as you b.s "statistics"?
 

S0ULZB0URNE

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I can't believe people are that delusional and have little fanboy logic to deny that. Its as if these fanboys have blinders on, and refuse to open their eyes, unless it's Sony, ps5, or playstation related. They can't even give credit to cyberpunk which blows the doors off any ps5 exclusive. Not to mention how the ps5 version is actually the ps4 version. And there was even word about how the next gen patch is going to be released later, due to technical difficulties with console version. You'd imagine that "super fast SSD" could fix all these issues, if you'd listen to yurinka yurinka and S0ULZB0URNE S0ULZB0URNE funny posts.
I know the best looking games are on PS5 and coming to PS5 "pie_tears_joy:"pie_tears_joy:"pie_tears_joy:
 

S0ULZB0URNE

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So why do more than 75% of PC gamers use a single display of 1080p, 1440, or 4K. As well as multiple displays? 90% of consoles run games at 1080p or much lower. You forgot to mention that for some odd reason though.... But hey, we can all see what you are trying to do here, and it brings great doubt to you being a game developer. You got anything you've worked on? Or was that just as believable as you b.s "statistics"?
Most PC builds use a 1060,8 gigs of ram and have HDD's :pie_roffles::pie_roffles::pie_roffles:
 

yurinka

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So why do more than 75% of PC gamers use a single display of 1080p, 1440, or 4K. As well as multiple displays? 90% of consoles run games at 1080p or much lower. You forgot to mention that for some odd reason though.... But hey, we can all see what you are trying to do here, and it brings great doubt to you being a game developer. You got anything you've worked on? Or was that just as believable as you b.s "statistics"?
I'll tell you in another words: the resolution of the primary (or only when they only have one) display for 86.02% of the Steam users is 1080p or under that. I mean, this is the resolution of their primary DISPLAY, not the resolution they are using in the game (which can be lower), and not the native resolution at what the game is being rendered.

Or in another words: it's a fact that there less Steam users with a 4K monitor (which doesn't mean they play at 4K resolution, native or not) than next gen console players. And this is with less than a month of next gen consoles sales.
 
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Due to Sony's strict DRM controls, Sony artfically stops PS5 games from running from USB 3.0 (5 GBbps) external drive. Sony is controlling your purchased game console's usage.

Star Citizen on HDD runs crap. I have a dedicated 1TB NVMe PCIe 4.0 on ROG Strix X570 motherboard for such cases.

Name a PS5 game that matches Star Citizen's game world scale and graphics.

I don't see anything special about Demon's Souls PS5' graphics e.g..


Also, where's the "next gen" game play from Demon's Souls PS5?
The textures in that trailer look very dry and dirty as if there aren't any shaders, but at the same time, it it's got a lot of triangles. What's going on there?
 

rnlval

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PS5 uses USB 3.2 gen 2 (10Gbps) to use there up to these external HDD or SSD.

The thing is that they implemented it for PS4 games, they will implement it for PS5 games too but a bit later because didn't have time to have it ready for launch. Same goes for using the SDD bay or VRR.

Obviously game companies use DRM, they don't want you to pirate their games. Devs need to eat too.
To make use of "USB 3.2 gen 2" , it needs both controller and end point device to be "USB 3.2 gen 2". My "USB 3.0" comment refers to common end point devices.

"USB 3.2 gen 2" 10 Gbps is useless for SATA 6's 6 GBps limited SSD and HDDs.
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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Most desktop game consoles are PS4s followed by XBO. Your argument is hypocritical.
I mean the 1060 is still much more performant then ps4pro or x1x. And the ps5 and xsx are equivalent to a 2060 with raytracing, sooo.... His so called argument, isn't even a valid point.

I'll tell you in another words: the resolution of the primary (or only when they only have one) display for 86.02% of the Steam users is 1080p or under that. I mean, this is the resolution of their primary DISPLAY, not the resolution they are using in the game (which can be lower), and not the native resolution at what the game is being rendered.

Or in another words: it's a fact that there less Steam users with a 4K monitor (which doesn't mean they play at 4K resolution, native or not) than next gen console players. And this is with less than a month of next gen consoles sales.
So no native 4k, raytracing, 60fps, non checkbox rendering? You can't make one single game that does this on ps5?! Yeah, didn't think so. Having a ps5 and 4K tv, doesn't mean the game running in 4k, or anywhere near that, as many comparisons have shown already. But you already knew that as a game developer? Or a blatant fanboy?

You do realize that PC gamers have a completely different mentality than console gamers. We value 1440p, 144hz or higher. Most of us don't care about checkerboard rendering or failing to maintain 30 fps. That's why we're on PC instead. Been there, done that, and I don't like limitations.

Most PC builds use a 1060,8 gigs of ram and have HDD's :pie_roffles::pie_roffles::pie_roffles:
Who is using HDD besides console players? Everyone calls you out on that, yet you keep repeating the same shenanigans. You should like llien quite frankly, and unable to understand reality vs a Sony fanboy. You never see Xbox fanboys try and shit on PC players, because they aren't delusional in their thought process. Find me a high end PC gamer still using HDD as main drive. I'm wait and see if you can back up your b.s.
 
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S0ULZB0URNE

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Most desktop game consoles are PS4s followed by XBO. Your argument is hypocritical.
Not with PS5 releasing.
Do you thinks 3rd parties and Sony are going to wait for PS5 to be in millions of homes before developing games for it lolz?
Id go as far as saying by 2022 there will be more PS5's in homes than "gaming" PC's with Gen 4/nvme drives.
 

S0ULZB0URNE

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I mean the 1060 is still much more performant then ps4pro or x1x. And the ps5 and xsx are equivalent to a 2060 with raytracing, sooo.... His so called argument, isn't even a valid point.


So no native 4k, raytracing, 60fps, non checkbox rendering? You can't make one single game that does this on ps5?! Yeah, didn't think so. Having a ps5 and 4K tv, doesn't mean the game running in 4k, or anywhere near that, as many comparisons have shown already. But you already knew that as a game developer? Or a blatant fanboy?

You do realize that PC gamers have a completely different mentality than console gamers. We value 1440p, 144hz or higher. Most of us don't care about checkerboard rendering or failing to maintain 30 fps. That's why we're on PC instead. Been there, done that, and I don't like limitations.


Who is using HDD besides console players? Everyone calls you out on that, yet you keep repeating the same shenanigans. You should like llien quite frankly, and unable to understand reality vs a Sony fanboy. You never see Xbox fanboys try and shit on PC players, because they aren't delusional in their thought process. Find me a high end PC gamer still using HDD as main drive. I'm wait and see if you can back up your b.s.
I know you won't spend less than $3000 to have a PC that runs NATIVE 4K(not DLSS)60FPS with RT.
Heck $3000 min is kinda low IN 2020.

Most gaming PC's still use HDD's. Now the spin begins he says "high end" PC gamers don't use them but that market is 2 small and PC's matching the PS5 market is even smaller.
Do you think 3rd parties will release for the latter specs?
 

DonJuanSchlong

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I know you won't spend less than $3000 to have a PC that runs NATIVE 4K(not DLSS)60FPS with RT.
Heck $3000 min is kinda low IN 2020.

Most gaming PC's still use HDD's. Now the spin begins he says "high end" PC gamers don't use them but that market is 2 small and PC's matching the PS5 market is even smaller.
Do you think 3rd parties will release for the latter specs?
There are MORE consoles using HDD than gaming computers, we all know this already, so why are you trying to make shit up? We're talking about GAMING computers, not the enterprise computer at work with no GPU.

Most people with ps5 have it hooked up to a HDD currently lol 😂. Who said anything about spending 3k? DLSS upscaled to 4K still looks so much better than checkerboard rendering, or the very few games that can even push 4K on console, as those games lack high resolution textures, effects, and raytracing that PC toutes. You must hate these facts.
 
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rnlval

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Right and the market of people owning gen 4 mobo's with nvme drives is small.
Not a problem when Intel releases Rocket Lake with PCIe 4.0 support.

PC GPU unit sale magitude examples

Colorful: 500,000 units per month, projected sales of five million units in 2015.
Galaxy: 400,000-450,000 units per month, projected sales of five million units in 2015 (this will also include shipments to Europe, North America, Australia, Japan and Korea).
Zotac: Projected sales of three million units in 2015.
Asus: Five million units in 2014 (global), expects the same count by the end of 2015.
Gigabyte: 3.6 million units in 2014.
MSI: 2.9 million units in 2014.
Total: ~24.5 million units annual

For mainstreaming gaming on PC, AMD has incoming RX 6700 series (with to 40 CU) while NVIDIA has RTX 3600 series.
 
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rnlval

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Not with PS5 releasing.
Do you thinks 3rd parties and Sony are going to wait for PS5 to be in millions of homes before developing games for it lolz?
Id go as far as saying by 2022 there will be more PS5's in homes than "gaming" PC's with Gen 4/nvme drives.
Target 10 million units for PS5 by the end of 2020.
 
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VFXVeteran

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The next ones will be Ratchet, Horizon 2, Gran Turismo 7, God of War and so on, all of them to be released during the next year.
Right.. the Sony 1st party exclusive companies and no others.



No real game programmer would think that only Sony 1st party companies have the "intelligence" to master the PS5 - especially when it's architecture is very similar to the PS4.
 
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Clear

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Every programmer wants to code down to the metal. But there's a billion (pc variations) reasons why that's a bad idea.

That's not strictly speaking what the complaint is. "Down to the metal" suggests writing directly to the hardware (machine code level) whereas the actual complaint here is the way the data-structures for BVH processing are black-boxed in the API's. Basically its a restriction on directly accessing/modifying certain data-types, not the hardware itself.
 
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S0ULZB0URNE

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There are MORE consoles using HDD than gaming computers, we all know this already, so why are you trying to make shit up? We're talking about GAMING computers, not the enterprise computer at work with no GPU.

Most people with ps5 have it hooked up to a HDD currently lol 😂. Who said anything about spending 3k? DLSS upscaled to 4K still looks so much better than checkerboard rendering, or the very few games that can even push 4K on console, as those games lack high resolution textures, effects, and raytracing that PC toutes. You must hate these facts.
PC's are stuck with HDD's...Consoles are not "pie_tears_joy:
It's a NEW generation PS5 and XSX use nvme drives.
AMD has it's own version of DLSS with these consoles.
Demon's Souls in performance mode looks as sharp as true 4K.
PC cannot run MODERN games with RT at high TRUE resolutions,max details and expect 60fps hence the need for fake resolutions via DLSS.
 
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rnlval

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Every programmer wants to code down to the metal. But there's a billion (pc variations) reasons why that's a bad idea.
Atm, there's only two major discrete GPU vendors for Wintel PCs with GPU SKUs being minor variation from tiny few ASIC designs e.g.
For DX12 Ultimate era GPUs

NVIDIA: TU106 (RTX 2060, 2070), TU104 (RTX 2070 Super/2080), TU102 (RTX 2080 Ti, Titan RTX), GA106 (RTX 3060/3060 Ti), GA104 (RTX 3070) and GA102 (RTX 3080, 3080 Ti, 3090)

AMD: NAVI 21 (RX 6800/6800 XT/6900 XT), NAVI 22 (RX 6700/6700 XT, AMD's PS5 like RDNA 2 SKUs) and 23 (AMD's PC Xbox Series S like RDNA 2 SKUs).


Don't forget this


Intel building up to be the 3rd discrete PC gaming GPU vendor.
 
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S0ULZB0URNE

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Right.. the Sony 1st party exclusive companies and no others.



No real game programmer would think that only Sony 1st party companies have the "intelligence" to master the PS5 - especially when it's architecture is very similar to the PS4.
What EXCLUSIVE does PC have coming that looks good visually?

WITCHFIRE?
 

rnlval

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PC's are stuck with HDD's...Consoles are not "pie_tears_joy:
It's a NEW generation PS5 and XSX use nvme drives.
AMD has it's own version of DLSS with these consoles.
Demon's Souls in performance mode looks as sharp as true 4K.
PC cannot run MODERN games with RT at high TRUE resolutions,max details and expect 60fps hence the need for fake resolutions via DLSS.
Only XSX and BiG NAVI (NAVI 21) has been confimed for native tensor dot math support.

DLSS is similar to temporal super sample, but with machine/deep learning sampling.
 

KingT731

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Due to Sony's strict DRM controls, Sony artfically stops PS5 games from running from USB 3.0 (5 GBbps) external drive. Sony is controlling your purchased game console's usage.

Star Citizen on HDD runs crap. I have a dedicated 1TB NVMe PCIe 4.0 on ROG Strix X570 motherboard for such cases.

Name a PS5 game that matches Star Citizen's game world scale and graphics.

I don't see anything special about Demon's Souls PS5' graphics e.g..


Also, where's the "next gen" game play from Demon's Souls PS5?
You do know that 10Gbps (fastest ports on the PS5) is only 1250 MB/s right? So you'd want them to give you the option to tank the performance on PS5 games with a slow drive so you can complain about it?
 

DonJuanSchlong

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AMD has it's own version of DLSS with these consoles.
Lmfaaaaao, where?! And why is it not being compared to DLSS? Is it inferior or something?

You do realize, most HDD's used in gaming are on ps5/ps4 and xbox hardware. PC doesn't have that problem, as they have had SSD's for longer than 10 years. And it's in every computer sold in the last several years, unlike consoles. Even the ps5 uses external HDD, which many posters on this forum have hooked up to it, right now. My 5th drive is a 4TB HDD, only used for backup. My 4 SSD's on the other hand are laughing at your lack of real world experience and knowledge when it comes to gaming PC's
 

S0ULZB0URNE

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Not a problem when Intel releases Rocket Lake with PCIe 4.0 support.

PC GPU unit sale magitude examples

Colorful: 500,000 units per month, projected sales of five million units in 2015.
Galaxy: 400,000-450,000 units per month, projected sales of five million units in 2015 (this will also include shipments to Europe, North America, Australia, Japan and Korea).
Zotac: Projected sales of three million units in 2015.
Asus: Five million units in 2014 (global), expects the same count by the end of 2015.
Gigabyte: 3.6 million units in 2014.
MSI: 2.9 million units in 2014.
Total: ~24.5 million units annual

For mainstreaming gaming on PC, AMD has incoming RX 6700 series (with to 40 CU) while NVIDIA has RTX 3600 series.
 

S0ULZB0URNE

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Lmfaaaaao, where?! And why is it not being compared to DLSS? Is it inferior or something?

You do realize, most HDD's used in gaming are on ps5/ps4 and xbox hardware. PC doesn't have that problem, as they have had SSD's for longer than 10 years. And it's in every computer sold in the last several years, unlike consoles. Even the ps5 uses external HDD, which many posters on this forum have hooked up to it, right now. My 5th drive is a 4TB HDD, only used for backup. My 4 SSD's on the other hand are laughing at your lack of real world experience and knowledge when it comes to gaming PC's
I told you PS5 uses it with Demon's Souls.
PS5 does not have a HDD. Most PC's do.
 
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S0ULZB0URNE

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Many don't opt in steam survey. So you're not going to see what's out there, which is why manufacturer sales were more reliable. Thought you at least could figure that out, as it's a optional SURVEY.
WE ARE TALKING GAMING. Steam is by far the most popular game launcher on gaming PC's.
The spin is real lolz
 
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rnlval

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You do know that 10Gbps (fastest ports on the PS5) is only 1250 MB/s right? So you'd want them to give you the option to tank the performance on PS5 games with a slow drive so you can complain about it?
Have you realize SATA 6 interface in HDD and older SSD are limited to 6 Gbps? Most consumer external storage has SATA-to-USB adaptor.

To go beyond SATA 6, a user needs NVMe to USB 3.2 adaptor and 1250 MB/s is too slow for PCIe 3.0 and PCIe 4.0 NVMEs.
 

DonJuanSchlong

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I told you PS5 uses it with Demon's Souls.
PS5 does not have a HDD. Most PC's do.
Maybe most older computers like at work, a library, etc. But just about every laptop or computer, or custom, has an SSD or two, for the past several years. This is standard to have SSD for many years now. Unlike all the old slow HDD's in millions of consoles across the world. Even many ps5 owners are using a HDD right now. But you constantly forget about that.
WE ARE TALKING GAMING. Steam is by far the most popular game launcher on gaming PC's.
The spin is real lolz
An optional SURVEY, doesn't really show anything. Especially as many don't care to be a part of it. But either way, there are so many people with a 2060 or better, which provides better performance than ps5. Then there are people with 2060, 2060s, 2070, 2070s, 2080, 2080s, 2080 ti. Not to mention the 30xx line with 3050, 3050 ti, 3060, 3070, 3080, 3090. And that's just Nvidia. There's the 6700, 6700 xt?, 6800, 6800xt, 6900xt. Why are you so salty that PC has more performant hardware than ps5, that you need to spread FUD in this thread, and several others?
 
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Panajev2001a

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Basically he's stating he likes a fixed platform and prefers it over the robustness of an open platform/API that causes him problems. Despite his complaints, the PC never has any issues rendering the fastest FPS anyways in any game compared to console... so there's that. Open API/hardware platforms scale well. That's their main advantage. You are locked into a specific hardware for 7yrs with the console. I'd personally take the scaling so that I can continue to push the envelope year after year.

I personally would take the latter so more people could benefit of my improved understanding of the HA and my creativity is thrown at problems they care about not trying to tame an non deterministic platform. You have more RoI in getting to know a fixed HW platform better and a lot of people can reap these benefits of me pushing the envelope there.
 

S0ULZB0URNE

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Not according to NewZoo, it takes the combined XBO and PS4 revenue sales to rival PC gaming reveue sales i.e. two platforms (DirectX11X/12X and GNM/GNMX) vs a single Windows DirectX11/12 PC platform (mostly).
Valve's estimated Steam reveue up to year 2017 from https://www.statista.com/statistics/547025/steam-game-sales-revenue
In 2017, Valve has $4.3 billion.

MS's Xbox divsion has past $10 billion.
He doesn't like facts, so he'll more than likely ignore then, and move the goal posts as per usual.

I will repeat... 3rd party console sales are significantly higher on PS4 than the PC.
More people play these 3rd party games online on PS4 than they do the PC.

What does MS XB division have to do with Steam or what I am saying?

I don't see facts I see off point spins.
 
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raul3d

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There is my video. Full 4k. Ultra settings. You see the popping across the street. That's not the point of the video. The point is to show all the things that DF stated was superior to MM in the reflection quality that is being reflected.
I don't get it, what exactly is the video showing? I cannot spot any recursive reflection in the video.

Both WD:L and MM apply heavy compromises to their realtime reflections and I don't see what gives you the authority to objectivly declare on of these approaches superior. Personally, when observing the rendered result, I find the cubemaps, temporal reconstruction, low object count, object quality and draw distance in the reflections in WD:L much more distracting. Also what is the point of doing a comparison of a rendering technique without considering the rendering cost?

How ironic that you mention developers not knowing how to master a closed box that is so similar to it's previous generation than any other generation before it.. and yet you show a demo by the very company that the rendering engineer works for where their demo supposed goes beyond any launch title to date for the PS5.

Are you sure these devs don't know what they are doing yet? We have this demo as proof that they do.
The epic demo is the result of years of cooperation and research and there are many more optimizations that can be done. It is a very early iteration of these features, which are not even available to the normal developers yet, let alone in a shipping game. It will need a lot more time.

Of course developers know what they are doing and of course smart developers also work for non-sony studies. I don't even think it's a knowledge advantage between first and third party developers, because optimization tips and tricks are also shared with third parties. However, if you only ship your game on one platform (with RT in this case) compared to four, it is much more feasible to optimize for all the quirks of your closed box.
 

VFXVeteran

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I personally would take the latter so more people could benefit of my improved understanding of the HA and my creativity is thrown at problems they care about not trying to tame an non deterministic platform. You have more RoI in getting to know a fixed HW platform better and a lot of people can reap these benefits of me pushing the envelope there.

You just have to deal with 1) being stuck with limited hardware for an extended period. 2) Can't change your graphics engine. 3) Hope that your hardware never gets cancelled. 4) Will be behind on new tech.
 
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VFXVeteran

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I don't get it, what exactly is the video showing? I cannot spot any recursive reflection in the video.

Both WD:L and MM apply heavy compromises to their realtime reflections and I don't see what gives you the authority to objectivly declare on of these approaches superior. Personally, when observing the rendered result, I find the cubemaps, temporal reconstruction, low object count, object quality and draw distance in the reflections in WD:L much more distracting. Also what is the point of doing a comparison of a rendering technique without considering the rendering cost?

Spiderman MM has temporal reconstruction too. Your point on this?
How is the object quality any lower than Spiderman's when their objects render at quarter res as opposed to half res?
Draw distance, I'll give you that. Give me something because you aren't giving me anything.
How about better lighting in WD:L reflections?
How about better shading than simple diffuse texture shading in MM in the reflections?

The epic demo is the result of years of cooperation and research and there are many more optimizations that can be done. It is a very early iteration of these features, which are not even available to the normal developers yet, let alone in a shipping game. It will need a lot more time.

I know that. I work with the engine on a daily basis professionally and have worked with the CTO before on film projects. You don't have to act like I am not in the industry. I am and know quite a few people.

Of course developers know what they are doing and of course smart developers also work for non-sony studies. I don't even think it's a knowledge advantage between first and third party developers, because optimization tips and tricks are also shared with third parties. However, if you only ship your game on one platform (with RT in this case) compared to four, it is much more feasible to optimize for all the quirks of your closed box.

And you will still be inferior in rendering and performance to a much more powerful rig that doesn't have the optimizations. That's my point. The PC GPU is so far ahead that it doesn't need the kind of optimizations that consoles need and it will still be ahead and render better and faster.
 
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rnlval

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I will repeat... 3rd party console sales are significantly higher on PS4 than the PC.
More people play these 3rd party games online on PS4 than they do the PC.

What does MS XB division have to do with Steam or what I am saying?

I don't see facts I see off point spins.



In terms of singular desktop gaming platform revenues, gaming PC is largest.

Game console segment is divided into Playstation, Xbox and Switch platforms.

Reference
 
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KingT731

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You just have to deal with 1) being stuck with limited hardware for an extended period. 2) Can't change your graphics engine. 3) Hope that your hardware never gets cancelled. 4) Will be behind on new tech.
Clap it up for captain obvious.
 

Panajev2001a

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You just have to deal with 1) being stuck with limited hardware for an extended period. 2) Can't change your graphics engine. 3) Hope that your hardware never gets cancelled. 4) Will be behind on new tech.

1.) Get to know it better and unlock its potential while avoiding making my codebase more of a mess than needed. Gain some sanity back by not having to worry as much about lack of determinism.

2.) Why not? It is not like they are monoliths that cannot be updated in parts

3.) Sure, but with Xbox and PlayStation does not seem that much of a real risk without reward

4.) Sometimes yes, but let's not joke around... HW development is slowing down (PC hides it by tolerating very high power consumption big setups too) and you do not develop for yourself, you develop to deliver value to consumers and they do not run the latest and greatest either...
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Jun 7, 2004
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In terms of singular desktop gaming platform revenues, gaming PC is largest.

Game console segment is divided into Playstation, Xbox and Switch platforms.

Reference

"
In terms of singular desktop gaming platform revenues, gaming PC is largest.
Game console segment is divided into Playstation, Xbox and Switch platforms.
"

This is cheating though, PC is not a single machine... you would need to break it into Dell, Alienware, Apple, etc... if you split consoles (especially if you split Xbox and PlayStation for example).