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News Rendering Engineer at EpicGames: DirectX RayTracing and Vulkan Optix holds everything back in PC land

Alexios

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His whole job is to add another huge layer of abstraction for game devs who don't wanna invest in getting to the nitty gritty and so they use ready made engines like Unreal Engine so obviously ease of use trumps much for most. Similarly he can make his own api if he doesn't like the existing few.

He should pitch the idea to Tim, he's a pyschotic lunatic these days yet rambling fanbots who don't know what they are talking about love him all the same on the social media to the point he thinks he's actually a god so might greenlight it and we can laugh at the results a year or a few from now.
 
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Yet pc trumps consoles on raytracing every day of the week even years before those consoles came out and that distance will only increase more and more.

Low level api access on PC is the most retarded shit i ever heard, u wanna optimize for every single cpu and gpu configuration?.
 
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VFXVeteran

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Then how do i see so many games where small props do cast shadows? In Watchdogs 2 even the the cord in Marcus bag casts a shadow, in RDR2 the bolts in the side of train door also cast shadows, all clean without visible tears. And even if they're using some different technique i don't know about, isn't the end result the same anyway?



Look at the cup on the table. That's horrible and screams out at you that the lighting is not there! Where is the light coming from? Who knows because there is no shadow. Look at the table's legs on the floor. No shadows.



Shadows are cast in direct light in this shot, but look what happens when you have no immediate direct lighting as this bottle in the trashcan shows. There is still illumination but from where? The shadow is gone. When they run their shadow map routine from the light's perspective, the depth map will completely miss the bottle in the trashcan. RT will not miss that.

This is the kind of stuff a shadow map isn't going to solve. This is what Lethal01 Lethal01 is talking about. And this is with a modern excellent graphics engines. There is no other advanced shadow technique to fix that. It's at it's limits with rasterization and shadow maps. You could bake in a shadow but then now it's no longer dynamic.
 
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diffusionx

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Demon's souls looks great, but it would look far better with raytracing so I don't see your point. RT costs me JUST maybe half my framerate and gives me a quantum leap in lighting in return.

We are FAR away from reaching diminishing returns when it comes to visuals. YOU don't notice it, I see it every second in even the most intense games, it's distracting and ugly. If I'm paying enough attention to play these games well then I'm not going to miss how fucking terrible the shadows and lighting in general currently is. Seeing the fake reflections in Spiderman when swinging through the world is also extremely shitty.

Like I said, if you don't care about visuals, that's fine. I want the companies to keep focusing on it because I do care.

I seriously need to stop watching DF... I watched their BLOPS Cold War video and they talked about how the RT shadows in the game are realistic in terms of intensity front to back compared to shitty, blocky, LOD-plagued shadow maps that we have had for generations now. If you want to see how it works just look at a shadow cast by a lamp in your house. And I admit although I noticed the limitations of shadow maps I never quite thought about what realistic shadows can totally bring to the table. Imagine a Splinter Cell with RT shadows!

People who complain about RT not being "necessary" just don't get it. Videogame rendering is going to be doing more and more RT going forward, not less. It's not going to be abandoned or ignored in favor of more hacks and shortcuts. The typical techniques we use are going to be replaced by RT one by one until all that shit - SSR, shadow maps, SSAO, etc. are buried.
 
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JimboJones

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Things like reflections and global illumination can be totally improved with RT.
Its just that the example you gave with the shadows is a really poor one.
How is it a poor example? It shows the flaws of traditional shadows not connecting with the casting body and the exact same issue is in the screenshot with the bike.
 
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Fake

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I'd be all for going back to Unreal Tournament and playing at 1000 fps but graphics technology continues to evolve and this is where the industry is headed.

You mean 'software technology continues to evolve', right? Taking the PC into consideration just show how much RT are specs hungry.

I'll be OK without RT for a long time. Let they do optimization first. Maybe two years or more.
 
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VFXVeteran

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You mean 'software technology continues to evolve', right? Taking the PC into consideration just show how much RT are specs hungry.

I'll be OK without RT for a long time. Let they do optimization first. Maybe two years or more.

It won't be optimization that you'll be waiting for. RT, even in the offline world, is just as expensive as it was years ago. You are going to be waiting for the hardware to get more powerful. Period.
 
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llien

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Yep, it's Voxel based raytracing combined with tracing through distance fields with some screen based tracing.
That's a long way of saying "yep, that thing does not use DXR like tech".

They hope to speed it up by using the PS5's ray tracing hardware soon.
Citation needed (and good job finding it, as it contradicts EPICs statements)

It's literally a perfect example of how important the tech is and once again, if you want to improve from this, the solution is more tracing.
EPIC literally stated that the structures they are using are not compatible.with DXR like stuff.

The other part of your statement reminds m how lockdowns were supposed to increase "violence against women" so they expected more calls on the hotline, but when in reality number of calls has dropped it again proved that there is a problem, somehow, as updated theory went with "victims cannot call anymore".


the only difference beeing that it cant reflect things that are outside the view.
And that only happens for performance reasons
 
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Alexios

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llien

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Please stop trying to push your bullshit as fact in completely unrelated threads, what's wrong with you and what does this have to do with video games.

It has to do with what just happened:

- You need RT for shadows
- Look here: you don't
- Right, that (somehow) proves you need even more RT

PS
push your bullshit as fact
This sounds like claiming I made it up, and for no good reason, except disliking what you have read.
As this is not the right thread for it, I won't chase your pathetic as on it.
Feel free to open it up in whatever is the right subforum for it, if you dare.
 
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Clear

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But that's ALWAYS been the case. That's nothing new. I propose that it doesn't stop innovation AT ALL. In fact, ALL of the innovative efforts in graphics tech has come from the PC using that abstraction layer (MS DX).

The work has been mostly done for years already, its why Carmack started to lose interest.

Most recent innovations are about achieving the same perceptual result using techniques that are computationally cheaper or more cost efficient. MLAA is a great example of this, but again so were the tweaks to enhance CBR upscaling in the PS4pro silicon. Not to say that these technologies are equally effective at reconsructing and upscaling an image from a smaller source just that the purpose is the same, and its kinda interesting to me how dismissive many people were about CBR (seeing it as a symptom of weakness in the hardware) rather than an early example of a type of tech that's going to get increasingly common in the future.

The problem with RT techniques generally though is that they require specific hardware support, and if that support cannot be guaranteed to be present the same need for broad market-wide compatibility means that more traditional solutions need to be implemented also as a fall-back. The point being the varied nature of the PC market makes brute-force solutions often the most practical. Yes you can get ultra high-quality shadows, reflections etc without resorting to RT, you just need to use traditional methods and take the hit by requiring extravagant amounts of data, vram and fill-rate.

Most people simply won't notice and in the end its all about illusion and perception. The science serves the art.

The key advantage consoles have over PC is simple; its the uniformity of function that comes from them being closed platforms. You can target to the limits of the spec without concern because every box is the same. In many ways its far more useful and liberating than simply having access to more power, because if you can't rely on that power to be ever present you need to factor in scalability options and some things are much less flexible than others. This is why the PS5's over-engineered i/o stack is such a potential game changer, it addresses what is typically an immutable limitation.
 

Guilty_AI

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Look at the cup on the table. That's horrible and screams out at you that the lighting is not there! Where is the light coming from? Who knows because there is no shadow. Look at the table's legs on the floor. No shadows.



Look at the extremely small debris that fly off the car when you crash (getting close to them you can even count the poligons). Every single one of them casting shadows, and this game isn't even treated as a graphical benchmark



Shadows are cast in direct light in this shot, but look what happens when you have no immediate direct lighting as this bottle in the trashcan shows. There is still illumination but from where? The shadow is gone. When they run their shadow map routine from the light's perspective, the depth map will completely miss the bottle in the trashcan. RT will not miss that.

This is the kind of stuff a shadow map isn't going to solve. This is what Lethal01 Lethal01 is talking about. And this is with a modern excellent graphics engines. There is no other advanced shadow technique to fix that. It's at it's limits with rasterization and shadow maps. You could bake in a shadow but then now it's no longer dynamic.

I don't disagree with indirect lighting. In fact, i do believe its one of the strongests visual aspects RT can improve.
 

VFXVeteran

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The key advantage consoles have over PC is simple; its the uniformity of function that comes from them being closed platforms. You can target to the limits of the spec without concern because every box is the same.

And I would challenge that even that's going to go by the wayside from the PS side of things. The Xbox is already NOT a closed box solution so we can count that as another form factor for a PC. Sony has indicated their intentions of supporting the PC in the future. This means companies like ND are already reimplementing their graphics engines to support multiplatforms. So this coding to the metal will get more and more obsolete as this generation unfolds.

In many ways its far more useful and liberating than simply having access to more power, because if you can't rely on that power to be ever present you need to factor in scalability options and some things are much less flexible than others.

Well, that power doesn't need to be ever present when you are talking about a standard API like DX. At that stage, you are more concerned with your algorithm being correct for all platforms as opposed to running fast for one.




Look at the extremely small debris that fly off the car when you crash (getting close to them you can even count the poligons). Every single one of them casting shadows, and this game isn't even treated as a graphical benchmark



I don't disagree with indirect lighting. In fact, i do believe its one of the strongests visual aspects RT can improve.

Yes, that's direct lighting in that sense. The examples I gave have to do with being somewhat directly lit and somewhat not. In the RE shot, you clearly have a direct light source as the character has a perfectly diffuse illumination where it falls off to black as the normal of his body is away from that window with the blinds. The problem is that how do you represent a light source in the shape of that window with only being able to use spot, cone, or vector shaped lighting? You can't. You need area lighting computation. And that's not going to happen with rasterization techniques. This is why I'm so excited about Cyberpunk and Metro's area lighting techniques.

The example with Thor is that it's directly lit because the illumination matches the rest of the illumination of the scene, but it's not casting any shadow at all because it's inside a trashcan. You could use AO in this regard but then the light would show no direction. It would be better to either use directional AO or just ray-trace from the sheet of paper to the bottle and get the shadow from the bottle.

Lastly, not to plug holes in your argument about shadow maps getting the objects.. take a look at your street light pole that has barbed wire around it. That is NOT seen in the shadow on the ground is it? That would be the advantage of RT shadows getting that barbed wire.
 
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martino

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i can confirm black box i see nothing about is helding back things...
no authority can make this kind of claim something else than funny.
 

jimbojim

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DirectX again. How so? Dammit, Albert :

People DO understand that Microsoft has some of the smartest graphics programmers IN THE WORLD. We CREATED DirectX, the standard APIs that everyone programs against. So while people laude Sony for their HW skills, do you really think we dont know how to build a system optimized for maximizing graphics for programmers? Seriously? There is no way were giving up a 30%+ advantage to Sony. And ANYONE who has seen both systems running could say there are great looking games on both systems. If there was really huge performance difference it would be obvious.

 

Azurro

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And you obviously didn't understand my statement. The hardware is much more powerful, so you don't need the optimizations that consoles need in order to try and maintain 30/60 fps. These optimizations on PC would be more than welcome, but it doesn't seem possible with the million and one hardware configs.

You are stating something irrelevant, I was criticizing the point that a "bad Epic optimization" of a black box was nonsense. What you posted had nothing to do with the conversation, I honestly do think that PCMR people really are unironic about the culture and are incredibly insecure about their "Uber" rigs.

By the way, it's a bit funny that PC fans mention that their rigs are so powerful they don't need optimizations and yet get annoyed when people mention that consoles punch quite a bit above their weight precisely because applications can be tailored to their specific hardware.
 

Clear

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Well, that power doesn't need to be ever present when you are talking about a standard API like DX. At that stage, you are more concerned with your algorithm being correct for all platforms as opposed to running fast for one.

DX is an abstracted access API, providing a common interface for heterogenous hardware. As such function may be reliable but performance is anything but because that depends on the drivers and the hardware that is being obfuscated.

As I pointed out, function is largely a done deal, performance is the thing that actually matters in real-time applications.
 

VFXVeteran

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DX is an abstracted access API, providing a common interface for heterogenous hardware. As such function may be reliable but performance is anything but because that depends on the drivers and the hardware that is being obfuscated.

As I pointed out, function is largely a done deal, performance is the thing that actually matters in real-time applications.

Agreed.. and performance is there the higher-end your graphics hardware is. I'm not seeing many issues with performance because I'm always getting the best that Nvidia/AMD has to provide. Not saying that your concern isn't a valid one, but it's less valid when you have the hardware that can outperform everything.
 

JimboJones

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You are stating something irrelevant, I was criticizing the point that a "bad Epic optimization" of a black box was nonsense. What you posted had nothing to do with the conversation, I honestly do think that PCMR people really are unironic about the culture and are incredibly insecure about their "Uber" rigs.

By the way, it's a bit funny that PC fans mention that their rigs are so powerful they don't need optimizations and yet get annoyed when people mention that consoles punch quite a bit above their weight precisely because applications can be tailored to their specific hardware.
It's also funny when console users cry for optimizations in games like Assassins Creed and when they do (by lowering settings more optimal to that hardware) they cry foul and blame imaginary boogymen who are secretly paying for "parity" deals.
 
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Azurro

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It's also funny when console users cry for optimizations in games like Assassins Creed and when they do (by lowering settings more optimal to that hardware) they cry foul and blame imaginary boogymen who are secretly paying for "parity" deals.

I don't think a couple of posters speculating over marketing deals equate to PC master race culture. I honestly find it much more childish, with their RGB on their RAM and keyboard, the "racing" chair and the constant need for validation that their rig goes vroom vroom.
 
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FALCON_KICK

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Spiderman MM reflections are complete garbage compared to WD:L reflections. They don't look better by any strech of the imagination. Just by avoiding the original shader calls in MM should make you see the difference right there.

Right now for next-gen consoles, Spider-Man: Miles Morales has set the benchmark for the best RT Reflections for launch games, I don't understand why you'd call it garbage when Rendering engineer of Epic games considers it a technical achievement.
 
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JimboJones

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I don't think a couple of posters speculating over marketing deals equate to PC master race culture. I honestly find it much more childish, with their RGB on their RAM and keyboard, the "racing" chair and the constant need for validation that their rig goes vroom vroom.
Oh for fuck sake :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
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DonJuanSchlong

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The end of today, is tomorrow dust
You are stating something irrelevant, I was criticizing the point that a "bad Epic optimization" of a black box was nonsense. What you posted had nothing to do with the conversation, I honestly do think that PCMR people really are unironic about the culture and are incredibly insecure about their "Uber" rigs.

By the way, it's a bit funny that PC fans mention that their rigs are so powerful they don't need optimizations and yet get annoyed when people mention that consoles punch quite a bit above their weight precisely because applications can be tailored to their specific hardware.
No, it's the console people who are constantly in all the PC threads, saying how the console is better than pc, which has been disproven a million times already.
I don't think a couple of posters speculating over marketing deals equate to PC master race culture. I honestly find it much more childish, with their RGB on their RAM and keyboard, the "racing" chair and the constant need for validation that their rig goes vroom vroom.
See, you clearly have something against PC. Maybe it's jealousy, but whatever it is, it's not a good look.


Size note, you can build a computer with no RGB, or you could simply disable it. We have all the control in the world with our rigs. RGB adds frames though
 

Guilty_AI

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Lastly, not to plug holes in your argument about shadow maps getting the objects.. take a look at your street light pole that has barbed wire around it. That is NOT seen in the shadow on the ground is it? That would be the advantage of RT shadows getting that barbed wire.
It totally is though:



From a distance is still noticeable:



You could argue its "squary", but thats just how the pole looks (as i said, not a graphical benchmark of a game):



And before you point out, people here are sprites, not 3D objects, which might be the reason why they don't cast any shadow (again, not exactly a graphical benchmark of a game)
 

polybius80

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Let's extrapolate that to DirectX as a whole, shall we?
It holds back gaming, right?

yes

standards are good and its good to follow them but they can hold back new features until they become part of the new revision of the standard and it doenst help when the "standard" is not only for a specifc brand of OS but also restricted to specific versions like windows7 and windows 8 not having access to a newer version of DX, as a result developers have to use past revisions to sell games to those players and that means not including the new stuff in the new revision of the "standard", its not a unique problem of DX as the same happens with OpenGL when is not supported then its no supported unless you want to check for specific extentions in yout GPU that have than functionality and use them as work around but its not recommended and will be restricted to certain GPU's outside the standard you are using

on consoles you cannot update the GPU but you can use every HW extention on them because every console have them, on PC you need the GPU to have certain functionality AND that functionality being part of the version of the standard you are aiming for AND the user's OS not being artificially restricted from that revision
 
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assurdum

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assurdum

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Just sounds like any of the dozens of young software developers I talk to in a given week at work who can't see beyond the end of their noses.

He sounds like he's enjoyed the benefits of writing code dedicated to a single piece of hardware but lacks the ability to see why things are done differently elsewhere. It's just a really bad way to word "being able to focus on low level hardware can produce more optimized results."

edit: Ah I see... this guy contributed to the Vulkan RT API.. so this is just your typical developer tribalism lol
I don't follow you. It's his opinion. You can agree or less. I never understand this attitude to discredit different opinions, it's really a bad habit of this sector. And it's not the first who said such things. I'm not talking of raytracing specifically, but Crytek developers and others are years who criticized Direct X prefering low API access.
 
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petran79

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on consoles you cannot update the GPU but you can use every HW extention on them because every console have them, on PC you need the GPU to have certain functionality AND that functionality being part of the version of the standard you are aiming for AND the user's OS not being artificially restricted from that revision

Nvidia and AMD could release drivers to support the new features for their older cards as well, but then who will buy the new cards?

I remember there were some custom drivers where a gaming GPU would unlock features of the more professional Nvidia cards meant for CAD


I did originally post this on the nvidia forums but they have silently deleted it , obviously they do not like what I have found becoming public


A user even converted a GTX 1080 to Tesla P4 that costs over 2000$.

So far: I converted my GTX 1080 to a Tesla P4 with this VFIO modification, and have gotten vGPU driver to initialize. Quadro P4000 spoof also works too. I can also confirm this is fully working with Kepler cards. Currently verified working on Linux guest VM. Windows will require further configuration, including disable MSIs and nested Virtualization.

So yes, Nvidia and AMD are both shitting on PC players
 

ChuckeRearmed

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but Crytek developers and others are years who criticized Direct X prefering low API access.
So will they code to the metal for each possible piece of hardware available on PC? From Nvidia, AMD to stuff like Intel Atom or whatever.
I mean on consoles you can a single piece of hardware for the whole generation, while on PC new piece of hardware comes each year and sometimes during one console generation, it changes several generations on PC.
 
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polybius80

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And I would challenge that even that's going to go by the wayside from the PS side of things. The Xbox is already NOT a closed box solution so we can count that as another form factor for a PC. Sony has indicated their intentions of supporting the PC in the future. This means companies like ND are already reimplementing their graphics engines to support multiplatforms. So this coding to the metal will get more and more obsolete as this generation unfolds.

you will lose that challenge, the Series X is a particular set of hardware, series S is a particular set of hardware while there exist hardware revisions that make slightly changes to other consoles(like PSX vs PSone or later 360 consoles), how the GPU works internally has to be the same providing the same extensions and speed, a game in your series X have to run the same in another Series X even if the game uses functions outside the API, the boxes are same or at least the "same" that is not changing

what is happening with Xbox is that games will target different systems so they may or may not focus in a particular hardware for a game releasing simultaneously, sony releasing games on PC means they port the games to PC or more correctly port the engine, it doesnt mean they are not targeting the console with their engine originally, specially if the game is not releasing simultaneously , the original game may be targeting low level functions on console and then run on PC with not the same optimization, another example is that engines like unreal engine can have special optimization for consoles and not use them on PC when porting its invisible for the average developer but there are changes
 
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assurdum

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So will they code to the metal for each possible piece of hardware available on PC? From Nvidia, AMD to stuff like Intel Atom or whatever.
I mean on consoles you can a single piece of hardware for the whole generation, while on PC new piece of hardware comes each year and sometimes during one console generation, it changes several generations on PC.
You should ask to them what is the possible alternative not to me. If they say so, I guess they think there is a way outside of the direct X libraries .
 
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Lethal01

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You mean 'software technology continues to evolve', right? Taking the PC into consideration just show how much RT are specs hungry.

I'll be OK without RT for a long time. Let they do optimization first. Maybe two years or more.

I think it's smarter to prioritize getting a solution that actually works and the optimize for that. Like you don't want to spend 3 extra years making a technnique that you already know is broken and will be replaced work a little better when you could have used those 3 years to make RT have a smaller performance impact by finding the perfect areas to cut back or implementing it in your engine slightly better..

I seriously need to stop watching DF... I watched their BLOPS Cold War video and they talked about how the RT shadows in the game are realistic in terms of intensity front to back compared to shitty

For me it's less about watching comparisons and more about comparing it to the 3d rendering I've been doing for a couple decades now for Archviz and other stuff.

I just don't get how people can think that the jump from Not having shadows on half the shit in the world to having shadows is a small one.
 
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thelastword

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Well NV have been holding this industry back with lots of proprietary stuff that goes no where.....All of AMD's technology is open and is beneficial for the industry at large....Radeon Rays is but one of AMD's open Iniatives, Freesync was another...Hell AMD is not even Proprietizing SAM.....All I can say is that RDNA 2 RT performance is going to be a force to be reckoned with and it will be the most used form of RT because of the consoles...Watch Dogs and Dirt's RT performance on Navi 2 GPU'S are more performant over Nvidia....Again, AMD's reach will give them another win.....The technology, the low level access and the devs will all prove it to be the superior hybrid technology....
 

onesvenus

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Because they are using DXR.
That is his point.

The best implementation and use of RT in games come from a game that doesn’t use DXR but a low level API.
Which game are you talking about?
EPIC literally stated that the structures they are using are not compatible.with DXR like stuff
Are you telling that Epic is coding RT for each and every configuration where their engine will be available?
Do you have a source for that?
 

TearInto5th

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RT is just one tool that can be used to improve a game in a number of different ways. It certainly isn’t necessary for every game to use it in every implementation, but it can be a tool that can push a good looking game to being great looking. It’s silly to suggest that all games need to use it in the same way, though.

More tools for developers can only be a good thing.
Im not saying more tools aren't a good thing, I will always agree with that. But it seems like the market is pushing for RT over anything else, like its the be all end all of advancements in lighting and immersion.

I just don't think its the saviour of an amazing looking game.
 

Lethal01

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That's a long way of saying "yep, that thing does not use DXR like tech".


Citation needed (and good job finding it, as it contradicts EPICs statements)


EPIC literally stated that the structures they are using are not compatible.with DXR like stuff.

The other part of your statement reminds m how lockdowns were supposed to increase "violence against women" so they expected more calls on the hotline, but when in reality number of calls has dropped it again proved that there is a problem, somehow, as updated theory went with "victims cannot call anymore".

Let's recap.

Someone said raytracing is over-rated technology.
I said ray tracing is indispensible for better lighting.
You asked me if I saw the UE5 demo. Implying it shows we don't need ray-tracing for better lighting



The UE5 demo uses raytracing to give better lighting.
The UE5 demo has shortcomings that would be solved by more raytracing.
The UE5 demo proves my point.

DXR is an api, Raytracing is not just DXR not using something like DXR does not mean it's not using raytracing. The ray tracing in the UE5 doesn't require hardware acceleration, neither does DXR. Raytracing can be done without hardware acceleration, it's just way faster if you do it with hardware acceleration.

The Lumen demon would perform better if it were hardware accelerated.
 
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onesvenus

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Miles Morales.
I take you haven't seen watchdog legion at ultra, right?
The reflected buildings in MM not having the correct shading is a really big issue.

It looks amazing for a console game and I think it really is, and will be for some time, the benchmark for RT on consoles, but don't pretend better things don't exist on PC
 

Lethal01

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Jun 15, 2019
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Im not saying more tools aren't a good thing, I will always agree with that. But it seems like the market is pushing for RT over anything else, like its the be all end all of advancements in lighting and immersion.

Because... it is? Right now every other technique is worse and is only used because despite raytracing being better it's still expensive.
 

Nhranaghacon

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Sep 15, 2020
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The fact is, ray tracing on Consoles will be great in the modest amount's we will see from next gen exclusives - and people will still cite "wow that is fully ray traced" but is it up to spec with a proper 1028bit path tracing solution you see in rendering engines? No where near! We are in the 8bit day's of RayTracing. In the future, all issues will be resolved - currently consoles will offer some of the best visual's due to dev team's narrow focus on 1 hardware ecosystem whether that entail's use of Ray Tracing or not. PC will sit back and reign when game's offer a RT solution that is not available on console in the meantime but even so, it's not like even PC's can handle Path Traced level's of Ray Tracing sufficiently. When real-time Path Tracing hardware, offering Reflective Caustics, Refractive Caustics, 1028 Bit Diffuse, 1028 Bit Glossy, 1028 Bit Transmission bounces, 1028 Bit Volumetric Scattering options finally arrive on Hardware - making instantaneous rendering standard's a reality - you will all realize Ray Tracing was only ever one very small piece of the puzzle and that you were in fact far behind the curve if Ray Tracing Performance is your primary hang-up now.

I am commonly seeing gamer's mistake Path Tracing as a Full Fledged Ray Tracing Feature, it is not, it is very much the reverse.

Ray Tracing is a lesser Path Tracing feature.

And be sure to understand anytime you see mention of "Ray Traced Path Tracing" what that mean's is Ray Tracing has been applied to the scene also with the caveat that 1-3 render passes utilizing a mixed Path Tracing solution were also harnessed.

That you aren't actually seeing Path Tracing deployed in real-time in any meaningful way, and please understand Path Tracing is NOT Ray Tracing - Path Tracing is a superior solution that can be added to the mix lending a non significant, insubstantial degree of precision and that the hardware to do Real Time Path Tracing in full while an amazing thought, has not been invented yet.

With that out of the way, expect masterful dev's to deliver mind blowing visual's with what little HW RT support there is on Consoles. And then expect PC's to eventually, one day - surpass those visuals in every way imaginable as standard.
 
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ethomaz

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I take you haven't seen watchdog legion at ultra, right?
The reflected buildings in MM not having the correct shading is a really big issue.

It looks amazing for a console game and I think it really is, and will be for some time, the benchmark for RT on consoles, but don't pretend better things don't exist on PC
RT on Watch Dogs is no where close to the use in Miles Morales.... they are not even comparable.

Even on PC Watch Dogs is not a showcase for RT.
 
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