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Opinion Clickbait Red Dead Redemption 2 and Grand Theft Auto 4 DESTROYS Cyberpunk 2077

Woggleman

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I didn't mind the missions in RDR2 because the story was just that good that I didn't notice but I am very much appreciating the freedom and Leeway in Cyberpunk. Many of the side quests you are told what needs to be done and the details are up to you and I love that.
 
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Barakov

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The salt this game creates is heavenly.

 

CormacMcNulty

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I can't fault Rockstar when it comes to the technical aspects of their games, but fuck their route 1 mission design approach.
True. I believe they're shifting gears though judging on how they're designing their new GTAO heists and stuff.
But most people probably didn't shit on Rockstar for it because they never promised very open mission design in their pre release marketing.
 
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Woggleman

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Exactly, what I was thinking. When it came out, 75% of the talk about it on forums was negative and picked apart every flaw they could come up with. Now the mob wants to tear down the next big thing, so Red Dead Redemption 2 is used as the example of how to do it right.
To be fair the game was a huge success and a lot of people ended up loving but yeah it was picked apart. Glad to see that it and GTA IV also are being appreciated for whatever reason.
 

Kadayi

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True. I believe they're shifting gears though judging on how they're designing their new GTAO heists and stuff.
But most people probably didn't shit on Rockstar for it because they never promised very open mission design in their pre release marketing.

Let's see how their next Single Player game goes.
 

Patrick S.

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Playing the PC version of RDR2 for the first time today I immediately thought the keyboard layout makes no sense. Like in the beginning, after a fist fight, I am prompted "press Tab to pick up your revolver" and then "press tab to pick up your hat". I double dipped on PC because after getting it day one on PS4 I didn't play more than the prologue because I hated the floaty and imprecise controls, and I hoped it'd be much better on PC - which it is, but damn, getting used to the controls is gonna take me some time.

Cyberpunk's controls on PC were super intuitive, on the other hand.
 

CormacMcNulty

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Let's see how their next Single Player game goes.
I don't know if you have read this already but there's an interesting interview with Rob Nelson (co-head of R* North) which addresses the mission design in RDR2 -
GamesBeat: I really liked this game. I played all 105 missions. I had a colleague who felt like he wanted it to be more like Hitman 2, where you can go and do anything, tackle your target through many kinds of means. It seems to me that approach is not what you wanted to do or tried to do. Do you have a view on how you balanced this sort of directed story versus the openness of the world and the missions?

Nelson:
I think all of us feel like we want to approach any situation, anything, in any way we want and have it be credible. But that’s a big, big challenge. To do that and have it feel — it’s a big world and a big story, and I think it needed to be a big world and a big story for what we set out to do. But yes, we explored a lot of different avenues early in development, like more procedural approaches to things. Hey, it’d be great if this camp could totally grow and you could hire people from towns and come back and add to your camp. We explored, at one point, if you could take anybody fishing that you wanted at any time.

But what that ended up doing was a very procedural-feeling game. You’d write a bit of dialogue, beta a bit of dialogue, and go and make these AI-type behaviors. It didn’t feel like you’re on a thing with Pearson and Bill, or you’re on a thing with Javier and John. It felt like you were on a thing with AI that just looked like those people, but they didn’t behave like those people.

Unfortunately there’s no procedural system yet that we’re happy enough with to make the worlds we make. Our worlds are handmade. Our artists will use certain procedural tools, but they’re all curated by the artists. It’s the same for the content we make. For it to make you feel anything, it has to be made by humans. It has to be written and designs and shot and acted and processed and put into place very carefully. For things that happen in the world, we have to very selectively know when they’re going to happen.

It would be great if this was all open, but people have to make this stuff happen at some point. It has to be scripted so that it all feels right. I don’t think there are procedural tools that will make it feel real.
Full Interview Link
 

Arachnid

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Red Dead Redemption 2 is literally the benchmark by a mile in so many categories.

Open world map.
Story.
Characters.
Voice acting.
Visuals.
Soundtrack.
Small details.
How alive the world feels.
Animations.

God knows what else, no wonder it destroys CP77 (which I also loved by the way). RDR2 is by far the greatest video game I’ve ever played.
Most of that is great, in a movie. RDR2 fails in terms of actual gameplay. Everything is too scripted/on rails (like one of the first posts in this thread outlined).

Not that I didn't enjoy it, but it was more of an experience than a game to me (kind of like Last of Us 1). I wouldn't get on it and shoot shit up just for fun since the shooting mechanics and mission design are the same archaic shooting gallery missions every Rockstar game has. There's a reason it got beat out by God of War for GOTY (though I have my problems with that game too).
 

#Phonepunk#

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bout to test this out for myself. i just finished playing through Cyberpunk 2077 a good 52 hours + worth of play.

now i'm starting back in on RDR2. i have an old save from a little ways into the game. i would like to finally finish it, but i'm not sure it will be able to hold my attention. already thinking of those unskippable horse rides has me yawning...
 
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Kadayi

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I don't know if you have read this already but there's an interesting interview with Rob Nelson (co-head of R* North) which addresses the mission design in RDR2 -

Full Interview Link

I'll be honest. That reads like a dodge. I really resented the fact that as Arthur I had no input in mission approach with the AI companions. There was one where it about going to rob some family of Hillbillies, and I was thinking 'great it's night time..let's stealth this' but no, goddamn companion sets fire to a hut and the whole thing turns into a gunfight and we end up killing the entire family for a few dollars and a shotgun....having some dialogue options beforehand to at least flesh out a plan isn't a bridge too far.
 
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perkelson

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And then you do something developers didn't intent you to do like idk, going away from mission area and suddenly you get "Failed"

No such a thing in 77
 
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Woggleman

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Rockstar could solve this problem by having a cinematic and on rails main story but also having a bunch of side quests where you decide how to do it. Sort of like Cyberpunk 2077.
 

CormacMcNulty

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I'll be honest. That reads like a dodge. I really resented the fact that as Arthur I had no input in mission approach with the AI companions. There was one where it about going to rob some family of Hillbillies, and I was thinking 'great it's night time..let's stealth this' but no, goddamn companion sets fire to a hut and the whole thing turns into a gunfight and we end up killing the entire family for a few dollars and a shotgun....having some dialogue options beforehand to at least flesh out a plan isn't a bridge too far.
You could choose to sneak in a few missions until it all went to hell but yeah, Rockstar didn't focus on that part during missions. I don't think there's any proper stealth system in place expect scripted parts.
The Cayo Perico Heist (and the Casino Heist to a lesser extent) is really interesting in a design way although GTAV has that same bog standard stealth anyway but it does let you do things in your own way. That gives me hope for their upcoming games.
 
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Kadayi

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You could choose to sneak in a few missions until it all went to hell but yeah, Rockstar didn't focus on that part during missions. I don't think there's any proper stealth system in place expect scripted parts.
The Cayo Perico Heist (and the Casino Heist to a lesser extent) is really interesting in a design way although GTAV has that same bog standard stealth anyway but it does let you do things in your own way. That gives me hope for their upcoming games.

The real strength of gaming as a medium versus others lies in its unique qualities of interactivity and choice and consequence. When a game is merely funnelling you down a prescribed route with no leeway to deviate, then it's essentially the equivalent of a Mutoscope



Where in your 'experience' is simply turning the handle to reach the same conclusion as everyone else.
 

CormacMcNulty

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The real strength of gaming as a medium versus others lies in its unique qualities of interactivity and choice and consequence. When a game is merely funnelling you down a prescribed route with no leeway to deviate, then it's essentially the equivalent of a Mutoscope
Don't really agree with this sentiment. It's like looking at game design through a tunnel vision, where only interactivity and choice, consequence matters. Games can be of different types with different design priorities. But opening up a mission certainly wouldn't hurt.
 
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The real strength of gaming as a medium versus others lies in its unique qualities of interactivity and choice and consequence. When a game is merely funnelling you down a prescribed route with no leeway to deviate, then it's essentially the equivalent of a Mutoscope



Where in your 'experience' is simply turning the handle to reach the same conclusion as everyone else.
I temd to view games like Red Dead Redemption 2 as interactive historical accounts, so to speak.

To experience the Wild West era in an immersive and interactive way is already a remarkable achievement.

The sheer strength in the storytelling aspect of the game elevates it to GOTG status, in my opinion.

Papa Papa get itt and agree with me.
 
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Aenima

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two completely different games. one is a sandbox the other is an action adventure rpg

also Rockstar mission design:
mission failed - you turned right
mission failed - you ran too fast
mission failed - you ran too slow
mission failed - you shot twice instead of once
mission failed - you walked too slow
mission failed - you farted too loud

yeah no thanks.
This was my main gripe with RDR2. The missions play in the most linear way possible. Every mission in Cyberpunk can be done from at lest 2 to 3 diferent ways, sometimes getting also 2 to 3 diferent outcomes at the end depending of how you completed it.

RDR2 was a very impressive open world and super polished, but lets not pretend its a perfect game, it has huge flaws in it in the gameplay department. Also not a fan that they crafted a very beauty and huge open world, where the only thing you can do is hunt animals. If i wanted a hunting simulator i would have bought one.
 
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Wunray

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You really can't compare RDR 2's open world to any other it stands head and shoulders above the rest in terms of immersion. I would compare 2077's open world to something like HZD.....I guess.
 
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Kadayi

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Don't really agree with this sentiment. It's like looking at game design through a tunnel vision, where only interactivity and choice, consequence matters. Games can be of different types with different design priorities. But opening up a mission certainly wouldn't hurt.

Gaming is still in its infancy as far as mediums go, so it's understandable that to a greater or lesser degree it apes those old mediums that have come before it because there are no maps for these territories (as Gibson would say), but it is only really when it moves beyond them and embraces the unique qualities that make it distinct from others that it truly shines.
 
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#Phonepunk#

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just tried playing RDR2. I picked out a mission on the map. I called the horse. I set off and set it to cinematic mode so I could enjoy the view. Somewhere along the way a horse and carriage convoy was crossing the road. My horse just ran into it without slowing down, falling over, turning the drivers against me, and I was shot immediately. Lol I was not even holding the controller at the time.

Now I have a bounty on me! So much for Rockstar’s great AI
 
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Evilms

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Rockstar Games >>>>> ................................ > CDPR

it's a bit like if you compare the Real Madrid with the PSG
 
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Loostreaks

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This is more of a let me cherry pick video.
Finished RDR 2 recently..never playing that again. I appreciate all the details and dedication to "immershun", but it is an unsatisfying slog to actually play. Main story was meh: too long, poorly paced, few engaging characters, predictable with repetition of same plot points ( "Just one more score, this time it will work...you'll see!). It's not even original/interesting if you've only played Rockstar games in your entire life( outlaw with a good heart, living the life of crime, suffers a tragedy at a turning point).
Very poor, clunky, incredibly repetitive and shallow gameplay. Pointless "survival" mechanics. Shallow mini-games and activities. Few memorable side missions. Outdated, rigid mission design. Nothing in the end, really served any purpose in the game.
Rockstar games are like a frozen cardboard pizza: they look great, but very thin and tasteless.
Cyberpunk has more rough edges in production values and does not even come close as open world simulation: but it has a far better story, controls, mechanics, quests, mission design, gameplay, variety of playstyles, characters, level design, art direction, music.
 

waquzy

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Shush you, don't spoil the hate train narrative.
It’s got nothing to do with hate narrative. There are people who like the game, but are also not scared to criticise its shortcomings. I think the game is great(85+ hours) however I’m not afraid to admit that it has one of the worst AI ever seen in an open world game. Comparisons being made between the two games was always going to happen and in most cases RDR2 is indeed better
 
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I love RDR 2 but it excels at mostly different things from CP2077. They're both gorgeous games with great characters and great stories that happen to have open worlds. Past that you're comparing very different games.

Who wins for shooting mechanics? Cyberpunk
Who wins for mission/level design? Cyberpunk
Who wins for choices? Cyberpunk
Who wins for stealth? Cyberpunk

RDR 2 doesn't even have RPG elements and its loot system is incredibly simplistic.

The weirdest place Cyberpunk outdoes RDR 2 would have to be world building, I'd never have expected it but RDR 2 doesn't feel as much like a cohesive world to me, it feels like it's your gang, a couple rival gangs... but not many... the law and... well... I dunno, not a lot else. Where Cyberpunk feels like a world in a constant struggle between competing gangs, corporations and so forth. Yeah, you can interact with NPCs more in RDR 2 and they seem more life-like, but the world itself? Your camp feels real, though, in RDR 2, great stuff there, I liked upgrading it
really lame that no matter what you do to upgrade the camp it eventually won't matter
and interacting with people in it. It's also the only place where I felt like the events of the surrounding world impacted the people.

Then we can talk about how these games launched. The thing is, because RDR 2 launched first on consoles and launched fine you'll usually hear it clearly launched in a better state than CP2077 when some could argue it was simply the inverse of CP2077, where it's launch on PC was incredibly flawed despite taking extra time to finish it.

 

CormacMcNulty

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The weirdest place Cyberpunk outdoes RDR 2 would have to be world building, I'd never have expected it but RDR 2 doesn't feel as much like a cohesive world to me, it feels like it's your gang, a couple rival gangs... but not many... the law and... well... I dunno, not a lot else. Where Cyberpunk feels like a world in a constant struggle between competing gangs, corporations and so forth. Yeah, you can interact with NPCs more in RDR 2 and they seem more life-like, but the world itself?
 
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RDR2 is better than Cyberpunk 2077 only when it comes to its sandbox (and of course having less bugs).

When it comes to controls, visuals you can get on a high-end PC, storytelling and especially quest design, Cyberpunk has it easily beat.
 
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Kadayi

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It’s got nothing to do with hate narrative. There are people who like the game, but are also not scared to criticise its shortcomings. I think the game is great(85+ hours) however I’m not afraid to admit that it has one of the worst AI ever seen in an open world game. Comparisons being made between the two games was always going to happen and in most cases RDR2 is indeed better

Please, Weasel. You're a one-note poster whose basically been spamming GAF since the game launched with the same 'worst game evar!!' garbo about CP since it launched, riding the hate boners of WEETABIX and the rest of Doom Patrol for every like you can get (Gotta get that Dopoamine fix yo). Your post history is there for everyone to see writ large. '85 hours' yet not one post that's a positive. Whom exactly are you hoping to convince. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Game is buggy, but bugs get squashed, AI gets updated. I know it's an inconceivable concept to you that developers can and do fix things as you've loftily declared in another thread, but to those of us who've been around for a while, it a widely accepted fact that post-release updates are a thing (even for Rockstar games).

As for the CP2077 versus RDR2. They're entirely different games. The former is more akin to Open World DS:HR versus a futuristic GTA.

One can throw all the plaudits one wants at Rockstar when it comes to the detail, but their mission design is a treadmill, and albeit some people seem to really enjoy that, it's not for everyone and as I pointed out earlier in the thread, it's not really leveraging the true strength of gaming as a medium when it comes to interactive storytelling in affording you the player the means to navigate your way through an experience on your terms (even within a frame of options) and truly own it. CP2077, on the other hand, is giving you a lot more scope both through the choices and decisions you can make regarding the story but also the manner in which you can tackle missions.
 
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waquzy

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Please, Weasel. You're a one-note poster whose basically been spamming GAF since the game launched with the same 'worst game evar!!' garbo about CP since it launched, riding the hate boners of WEETABIX and the rest of Doom Patrol for every like you can get (Gotta get that Dopoamine fix yo). Your post history is there for everyone to see writ large. '85 hours' yet not one post that's a positive. Whom exactly are you hoping to convince. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Game is buggy, but bugs get squashed, AI gets updated. I know it's an inconceivable concept to you that developers can and do fix things as you've loftily declared in another thread, but to those of us who've been around for a while, it a widely accepted fact that post-release updates are a thing (even for Rockstar games).

As for the CP2077 versus RDR2. They're entirely different games. The former is more akin to Open World DS:HR versus a futuristic GTA.

One can throw all the plaudits one wants at Rockstar when it comes to the detail, but their mission design is a treadmill, and albeit some people seem to really enjoy that, it's not for everyone and as I pointed out earlier in the thread, it's not really leveraging the true strength of gaming as a medium when it comes to interactive storytelling in affording you the player the means to navigate your way through an experience on your terms (even within a frame of options) and truly own it. CP2077, on the other hand, is giving you a lot more scope both through the choices and decisions you can make regarding the story but also the manner in which you can tackle missions.
Go and do some more research you stalker, I said Cyberpunk 2077 is my game of the year! Go and look it up.

As for fishing for likes, it’s a bit rich coming from Self proclaimed GIF PIMP?! lol, get a life you tosser