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Platform Real Time Hardware Accelerated DirectX Ray Tracing - How Xbox Series X will show a generational leap in Video Game Graphics

GymWolf

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That looks already amazing in Minecraft (imo), looking forward to see what it can bring to big AAA games that strive for realism.
Good for you, i guess people who like minecraft are more easy to impress, to me it looks like the same shit with a different coat of paint.
 
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M1chl

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Because they sell their overpriced gpu even without rtx demonstrations. :ROFLMAO:

But i expect some pretty good demonstration when they are gonna show the 3000 series.
Well to be honest RTX line-up is pretty good, but only when things using tensor cores started to pop-out, probably nVidia HW team was miles ahead of nVidia SW team. I have both 2080Ti and 2070 (non-super) and it has a lot of cool features and pretty good performace. Well in 2080Ti, you need to not look on the price, tho, because it's fuck you money. But it was kind of Next-gen HW and with the size of the die, it must be massively expensive to build it.
 
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Good for you, i guess people who like minecraft are more easy to impress, to me it looks like the same shit with a different coat of paint.
I never played Minecraft, I can just see past the pixelated game of Minecraft and purely look at the lighting and how it could impact other games.
 

GymWolf

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That’s pretty much next gen gaming summed up in a sentence.

So you have to ask yourself if you are in or out.
I guess i have far higher expectation than raytraced minecraft :lollipop_grinning_sweat:
 
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GymWolf

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I never played Minecraft, I can just see past the pixelated game of Minecraft and purely look at the lighting and how it could impact other games.
Again good for you, for me rtx serve the purpose of making realistic scenes even more realistic and it doesn't do absolute nothing in a game with an ugly unrealistic artstyle.
I can clearly see the improvement of course,it's just not impressive at all for me.

But to be honest, i'm not really a light\shadow guy so it's hard to impress me with this stuff.
Ue5 was probably the first time where i really appreciated something related to lights and shadows:lollipop_grinning_sweat:, but i was still far more impressed by the geometry details.
 

GymWolf

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I hope they aren’t much higher.
Much higher than a raytraced game that still looks like utter shit?

You can bet your house they are much higher, just the teaser of hellblade 2 is light years better than any improved form of minecrap :ROFLMAO:
 
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GymWolf

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You won't get something more impressive than minecraft running almost fully path traced. But that's got nothing to do with whether you get something you personally enjoy.
I don't care for full path raytracing, i'm more than okay with fake lights or minimal form of rtx with a good graphics under that, still better than advanced raytracing on a horrible looking game.

Matter of perspective i guess.
 

Lethal01

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I don't care for full path raytracing, i'm more than okay with fake lights or minimal form of rtx with a good graphics under that, still better than advanced raytracing on a horrible looking game.

Matter of perspective i guess.

Like I said, whether it's impressive has little to do with whether you like it.
The Minecraft demo is just more impressive than the things you want to see which is why they use it as a demo.
 

GymWolf

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Like I said, whether it's impressive has little to do with whether you like it.
The Minecraft demo is just more impressive than the things you want to see which is why they use it as a demo.
Again, more impressive for you and some people, not everybody.

If you show hb2 teaser and raytraced minecraft to 100 people who don't play games, do you seriously think that minecraft is gonna come out as the most impressive stuff? Think again...
 

jimbojim

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XSX ran Minecraft with raytracing after a one man/one day implementation at 1080p/45.

From 4:00 in video it was mentioned that 1 dev needed 4 weeks to made a tech demo for XSX.


Wasn't that demo on an XSX running sub 30fps at times at 1080p?

Video was uncoded at 30fps. But tech demo ran between ran between 30 and 60 fps. Dark1X said that in video. But like i've said the XSX demo looked way less complex than the worlds created for Minecraft RTX2080Ti here, which were used for testing the performance.
 

ZywyPL

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In theory the possibilities are all there - Machine Learning, Mesh Shading, VRS, RT, Rapid Packed Math, BCPack and what's not, in theory with everything combined the console should be able to achieve outstanding results, along with great performance, but will this actually be the case, hopefully we'll see soon enough.


It's the most popular video game in the world.........

Mostly because it can run on pretty much everything, which is exactly opposite of what RT allows for...
 

Bernkastel

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More from devs
Matthew Karch , founder and CEO of Saber Interactive
We are working on global illumination and realtime reflection technologies based on DirectX raytracing.
 

scalman

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Gen leap with ray tracing, plz... gen leap with next gen destruction , physics,AI, animations ..all in best visuals thats yes. But not with rt or resolution.
 
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JerryinSoCal

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You mean Bright Memory Infinite ?

That game really didn't have much going on, you never saw more than 1 enemy in focus at a time and never more than two on screen (one in the distance) at all, the "weather" effects weren't that great either it was just nice and shiny.
 

JerryinSoCal

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I am 100 % sure RT will not be a thing in next gen consoles .. maybe it will be worth it in 4-5 years when we see > 40 TF GPUs with 2-3 TB of memory bandwidth .. it's a performance killer and it doesn't look any better than the traditional baked/semi baked lightning methods unless they use full RT

I'm sure it'll be used a bit but if a dev is going for 60fps with AAA graphics you can probably forget about RT being used in any meaningful way.
 

Bernkastel

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Ljubomir Peklar, designer at Ebb Software
DirectML and NVIDIA's DLSS 2.0 are very interesting solutions when the game is not hitting the desired performance and it feels like these solutions could help players with weaker systems quite substantially.
 

Azurro

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So, how does Hardware Accelerated DirectX Raytracing with DirectML compare to Nvidia's RTX with DLSS 2.0 ?
Well, a month after demo of Minecraft Ray Tracing on Xbox Series X, Nvidia released Minecraft RTX Beta

...

In a way they both are competing techs and we will see how they compare in future. Nvidia's DLSS(Deep Learning Super Sampling) is one of the first machine learning techs that leverages the power of GPU. DLSS can upscale a 1440p image to 4K, almost indistinguishable from native renderings while delivering significant performance boost. DirectML will bring DLSS like features to Xbox and PC. Even AMD seems to be betting on DirectML for future as an answer to DLSS for their GPUs.

Dude, you are being way too optimistic. The Minecraft demo on XSX was barely holding on to 30 FPS at 1080p. You are never going to get full path tracing this generation on anything that is more complex than those basic polygons, so it might as well not be there. What you will see is a mix of regular rendering techniques mixed with ray tracing that helps with global illumination, shadows and very limited reflections. Ray Tracing is still just too expensive to be what it's hyped up to be, even with the machine learning trickery included.
 
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Rikkori

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Dude, you are being way too optimistic. The Minecraft demo on XSX was barely holding on to 30 FPS at 1080p. You are never going to get full path tracing this generation on anything that is more complex than those basic polygons, so it might as well not be there. What you will see is a mix of regular rendering techniques mixed with ray tracing that helps with global illumination, shadows and very limited reflections. Ray Tracing is still just too expensive to be what it's hyped up to be, even with the machine learning trickery included.

No, you're being too pessimistic. Familiarise yourself with AO history and understand that there are vast untapped resource saving innovations to be had. At the beginning of the feature in Crysis AO was a HUGE resource hog, but today we can turn it on for what's trivial performance requirements. There's room for MASSIVE software innovations wrt RT & denoisers. You can't expect the tech to stand still for the next 7 years and keep the same costs especially when every industry graphically-related is going full hog for RT as the future of rendering.

 
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Bernkastel

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Dude, you are being way too optimistic. The Minecraft demo on XSX was barely holding on to 30 FPS at 1080p. You are never going to get full path tracing this generation on anything that is more complex than those basic polygons, so it might as well not be there. What you will see is a mix of regular rendering techniques mixed with ray tracing that helps with global illumination, shadows and very limited reflections. Ray Tracing is still just too expensive to be what it's hyped up to be, even with the machine learning trickery included.
I didnt use any hype language on the OP and the first 3 posts, its just everything we know about DirectX Ray Tracing from official sources. I guess you wanted me to write about how Xbox is overhyping Ray Tracing with PR and it will be underwhelming. In that case make your own thread.
Sometimes I do feel like making these detailed threads, because I have seen some people believe stuffs like Xbox Series X has not done anything in the audio department and everything is software based etc. As a rule I dont include any hype language in the oopening posts but some people interpret information that they dont like as hype and sometimes even console wars.
 
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One Big Room, Full Of Bad Bitches

Scorn dev talks RT, says will be used on case by case basis with UE5.

As you saw with that Unreal Engine 5 demo there are other ways to get that GI equivalent. Developers have been using Ray Tracing to create static GI for years. Real-time Ray Tracing is certainly a breakthrough. It will be a much more useful tool for the developers in the future than a mind-blowingly obvious feature for players to notice. You looked at the tag to see if it was there. Through the years developers have developed many different techniques to fake aspects of what Ray Tracing can accomplish, from reflections to shadows and AO.
 
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Bernkastel

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Trueblakjedi

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Minecraft with full path RT was 1080p/unstable 60fps running on much more powerful RTX2080Ti and surely much more powerful CPU. How you can expect 4k/60 with RT on XSX?

1080p running at 30+ frames per second with zero rasterization. It was entirely raytraced and used no DLSS either.

Brute forced, fully path traced RT running higher than 30 fps and sometimes as high as 45 fps on an unreleased console.

Contrast this with the 2080ti implementation:

"
We played the game on our home gaming PC, which is packed with an AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, 32GB of RAM and an Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Ti – as close to top-end as you can get right now without breaking into the HEDT world. And, even with this extravagant level of hardware, we didn't manage to break a 60 fps average at 3,440 x 1,440 with ray tracing enabled.

That being said, when we turned off the DLSS upscaling, framerates tanked all the way down to the mid-20s, so we would say that enabling DLSS is basically required with Minecraft RTX."

The XSX did VERY well in comparison against the current top of the line Nvidia card.
 

jimbojim

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1080p running at 30+ frames per second with zero rasterization. It was entirely raytraced and used no DLSS either.

Brute forced, fully path traced RT running higher than 30 fps and sometimes as high as 45 fps on an unreleased console.

Contrast this with the 2080ti implementation:

"
We played the game on our home gaming PC, which is packed with an AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, 32GB of RAM and an Nvidia GeForce RTX 2080 Ti – as close to top-end as you can get right now without breaking into the HEDT world. And, even with this extravagant level of hardware, we didn't manage to break a 60 fps average at 3,440 x 1,440 with ray tracing enabled.

That being said, when we turned off the DLSS upscaling, framerates tanked all the way down to the mid-20s, so we would say that enabling DLSS is basically required with Minecraft RTX."

The XSX did VERY well in comparison against the current top of the line Nvidia card.

XSX version was less complex than PC version. Yeah, "very well".
 

magaman

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Its made by one man, there is a demo on PC and its amazing

Talk about an identity crisis. It's impressive from a tech perspective that it's made by one guy, but none of this makes any sense, thematically, and looks like the game is designed to be interactive ADD medication. None of it flows well, there's no cohesion, no weight to anything, and it feels generic.

Again, not downplaying the work of a single guy, but "amazing"? That's hyperbole.
 
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Bernkastel

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Journalist: How hard is game development going to get for the next generation? For PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X? The big problem in the past was when you had to switch to a new chip, like the Cell. It was a disaster. PlayStation 3 development was painful and slow. It took years and drove up costs. But since you’re on x86, it shouldn’t happen, right? A lot of those painful things go away because it’s just another faster PC. But what’s going to be hard? What’s the next bar that everybody is going to shoot for that’s going to give them a lot of pain, because they’re trying to shoot too high?
Gwertzman:
You were talking about machine learning and content generation. I think that’s going to be interesting. One of the studios inside Microsoft has been experimenting with using ML models for asset generation. It’s working scarily well. To the point where we’re looking at shipping really low-res textures and having ML models uprez the textures in real time. You can’t tell the difference between the hand-authored high-res texture and the machine-scaled-up low-res texture, to the point that you may as well ship the low-res texture and let the machine do it.
Journalist: Can you do that on the hardware without install time?
Gwertzman:
Not even install time. Run time.
Journalist: To clarify, you’re talking about real time, moving around the 3D space, level of detail style?
Gwertzman:
Like literally not having to ship massive 2K by 2K textures. You can ship tiny textures.
Journalist: Are you saying they’re generated on the fly as you move around the scene, or they’re generated ahead of time?
Gwertzman:
The textures are being uprezzed in real time.
Journalist: So you can fit on one blu-ray.
Gwertzman:
The download is way smaller, but there’s no appreciable difference in game quality. Think of it more like a magical compression technology. That’s really magical. It takes a huge R&D budget. I look at things like that and say — either this is the next hard thing to compete on, hiring data scientists for a game studio, or it’s a product opportunity. We could be providing technologies like this to everyone to level the playing field again.
Journalist: Where does the source data set for that come from? Do you take every texture from every game that ships under Microsoft Game Studios?
Gwertzman:
In this case, it only works by training the models on very specific sets. One genre of game. There’s no universal texture map. That would be kind of magical. It’s more like, if you train it on specific textures and then you — it works with those, but it wouldn’t work with a whole different set.
Journalist: So you still need an artist to create the original set.
Journalist: Are there any legal considerations around what you feed into the model?
Gwertzman:
It’s especially good for photorealism, because that adds tons of data. It may not work so well for a fantasy art style. But my point is that I think the fact that that’s a technology now — game development has always been hard in terms of the sheer number of disciplines you have to master. Art, physics, geography, UI, psychology, operant conditioning. All these things we have to master. Then we add backend services and latency and multiplayer, and that’s hard enough. Then we added microtransactions and economy management and running your own retail store inside your game. Now we’re adding data science and machine learning. The barrier seems to be getting higher and higher.
That’s where I come in. At heart, Microsoft is a productivity company. Our employee badge says on the back, the company mission is to help people achieve more. How do we help developers achieve more? That’s what we’re trying to figure out.
 

darkinstinct

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Talk about an identity crisis. It's impressive from a tech perspective that it's made by one guy, but none of this makes any sense, thematically, and looks like the game is designed to be interactive ADD medication. None of it flows well, there's no cohesion, no weight to anything, and it feels generic.

Again, not downplaying the work of a single guy, but "amazing"? That's hyperbole.
But you are downplaying it. Kind of what you expect from a Neo member, right?
 

Journey

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good graphics, new gen, awesome tech

*continues to show Minecraft*


I see that just like any other tech demo shown by AMD and others, gamers are still missing the point. The Minecraft demo is showing off FULL path tracing, something that is extremely difficult to achieve.

 
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Journey

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Talk about an identity crisis. It's impressive from a tech perspective that it's made by one guy, but none of this makes any sense, thematically, and looks like the game is designed to be interactive ADD medication. None of it flows well, there's no cohesion, no weight to anything, and it feels generic.

Again, not downplaying the work of a single guy, but "amazing"? That's hyperbole.


Looks amazing to me 🤷‍♂️

You can't be talking about how well it flows or if it makes sense... without actually playing the full game, what you're saying is what makes no sense.
 
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Grinchy

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It is confusing to me that people find a way to not be impressed by Minecraft RTX.

And supposedly, at least according to the game engine developer guy from youtube, we will see major optimizations in raytracing technology itself.

Instead of needing so many points of path-traced light sources, they will figure out how to use less of them but spread them out for the purpose of de-noising and to majorly improve performance. It's not an impossible dream to see fully raytraced new games on these consoles later in the generation as these optimizations take place (as opposed to brute forcing it into older and simpler games like Minecraft).
 
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Bernkastel

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“In Call of the Sea, the island has a great importance as we tell the story as a dialogue between the player and their environment. Thanks to the power of Xbox Series X and DirectX Raytracing, we will have the chance to make the island even more present, almost come to life. Players will have the opportunity to enjoy the island’s stunning environments in beautiful 4K, allowing for a greater immersion and an overall better experience.” – Manuel Fernández, Out of the Blue
 

TonyK

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Its made by one man, there is a demo on PC and its amazing
I don't understand the praise for this game. I purchased the "demo" in Steam and refunded asap.

Maybe It can be an achievement if I think it has been made by one person, but at the end of the day it seemed for me an ugly, rough and a terrible game. It made me want to replay Bulletstorm or Vanquish.

I guess that if it was made by one studio instead of a single developer, people would have a different opinion.

And returning to the topic, I'm interested in the bouncing light aspect of raytracing but not so much in reflections. Actual fake reflections are fine for me.