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PS5: VRR Update Is Reportedly Coming In December

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Fredrik

Gold Member
I don't see the point of the discussion. Sony promised the feature and that's all that is needed for people to expect it.

If it's worth it or not may be up for personal taste
Exactly. I don’t have a VRR TV yet but I want VRR to be there on all consoles when I upgrade the TV.

Unfortunately you can’t show the difference it makes, you can’t film it, you can’t show it on a screen without vrr, it has to be experienced and with vrr TVs being so expensive it may be too much to ask for.
The VRR discussions are very similar to the G-Sync discussions back in 2014 btw; too expensive
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
Because the fine tune control is on user side PC needs VRR… it is basically impossible the dev optimize a locked framerate to all hardware combination that exists in PC and most PC users are not modders to do the optimizations themselves… just the turning options are not enough to reach a locked framerate in some cases.

It is basically the opposite of console where you have a fixed hardware identical to everybody so dev can optimize a locked framerate that doesn’t need VRR at all.

The games that have messed framerate on consoles are the ones that devs choose to ship in that way… dev are the ones responsible to delivery a locked framerate on consoles (and a lot of devs do that).
And that's why you need vrr on console, because very few games have a really locked framerate, especially third party (and third party are 90% of what you play just by sheer number of releases)
 

Loxus

Member
How does that matter in any way? It’s still superior technology, saves battery life for watches and laptops, allows very high refresh rates on monitors and removes (almost) all synchronization issues between the source and the display. It’s straight up superior.

It’s as weird as arguing about Dolby Atmos versus virtual surround, well people do it too but you get my point.
That's how VRR is done on Xbox on PlayStation, through HDMI.

It's better to compare oranges with oranges, not oranges and apples.
 

FrankWza

Member
How does that matter in any way?
Because if you read the OP, the issue is the standard changing. Sony, besides having hundreds of millions of consoles sold, also makes TVs. So when they sell their 100 million PS5s there’s less potential for any issues if they finalize the 2.1 standard and the changes that are coming.
They also have 2 huge titles releasing within 3 months and would probably like to avoid issues like this:

 

Loxus

Member
Exactly. I don’t have a VRR TV yet but I want VRR to be there on all consoles when I upgrade the TV.

Unfortunately you can’t show the difference it makes, you can’t film it, you can’t show it on a screen without vrr, it has to be experienced and with vrr TVs being so expensive it may be too much to ask for.
The VRR discussions are very similar to the G-Sync discussions back in 2014 btw; too expensive
I could never understand how we get a consoles with all these features for $400 but TVs that match the full potential of the console are $1000+.
 

ethomaz

Banned
And that's why you need vrr on console, because very few games have a really locked framerate, especially third party (and third party are 90% of what you play just by sheer number of releases)
So instead to ask for better game from developers you prefer a band-aid.
That is what is happening here.

VRR is a workaround fix not a root cause fix... anybody that works with software development knows that.
If you fix the root cause, the messed performance in your game, you won't ever need VRR.

And that is exactly what can be archived in a fixed hardware platform like consoles... the opposite of PC where you indeed needs the workaround because performance is out of control from developers due the million of hardware combinations.

PS. I'm not against the workaround, the VRR feature should exists on console but it should be needed in very specific cases and not to be something mandatory to have a better gaming experience... we need better compromisses from developers.
 
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Loxus

Member
Because if you read the OP, the issue is the standard changing. Sony, besides having hundreds of millions of consoles sold, also makes TVs. So when they sell their 100 million PS5s there’s less potential for any issues if they finalize the 2.1 standard and the changes that are coming.
They also have 2 huge titles releasing within 3 months and would probably like to avoid issues like this:

I thought VRR works regardless?
At least that what some make it out to be.
 

ethomaz

Banned
I thought VRR works regardless?
At least that what some make it out to be.
The game need to send the VRR instructions.
The display side will works whatever the VRR instructions come in HDMI signal... of course the display needs to support VRR.
But the game/software side needs to generate and send these VRR instructions to the display first.

Of course... it could have a OS/System feature that automatically generate the VRR instructions but I don't know how it works and it there is the possible to be a worse option than make the game engine itself generate the VRR instructions... after all the developers knows better how the game is working internally than an automate OS/System task.

That is what I understand on VRR.

nVidia implement G-Sync at driver level but even so it needs driver update to support new game releases.
 
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Fredrik

Gold Member
And that's why you need vrr on console, because very few games have a really locked framerate, especially third party (and third party are 90% of what you play just by sheer number of releases)
Yup. And it’s not just a fix when devs stumble to lock at 60fps, it’s about being able to go above 60fps too and not having to go as far as 120fps just to get things smooth. On PC with gsync the fps can hover around 75 to 115fps and it looks smooth as butter and you wouldn’t know the rough average fps without staring at the counter in the corner of the screen. When I play Cyberpunk the fps can dip as low as 50 in a crowded city area but usually sit around 65-80fps, I never notice a frame drop.
 

Zathalus

Member
Because if you read the OP, the issue is the standard changing. Sony, besides having hundreds of millions of consoles sold, also makes TVs. So when they sell their 100 million PS5s there’s less potential for any issues if they finalize the 2.1 standard and the changes that are coming.
They also have 2 huge titles releasing within 3 months and would probably like to avoid issues like this:

Oh the old HDMI 2.1 standard hasn't been finalized yet despite no real evidence that this is the case. Jeez, even Sony TVs finally have 2.1 VRR support, the standard is done (was years ago actually).

Halo Infinite having broken VRR has got nothing to do with the HDMI 2.1 standard, just that the game has numerous technical issues.
 

ethomaz

Banned
I don't think that's how VRR works.
That is how it works.
The game needs to send the VRR instuctions.

Now where you generate them it is another case.
nVidia choose to put the generation of VRR instructions at driver level in an automated form and to make it works better or 100% they needs driver update when each game releases.

But that is nVidia way... they put a lot of games optimizations in drivers... so every time a new game releases they release a driver that boost performance on that game.

MS probably have a similar solution at OS/System level but it not working for Halo Infinite so the developer will need to do something in the game to makes it works... another way is MS put the VRR feature at SDK (GDK) level so the game are already developed with VRR... some console features are locked at SDK level (some you can disable others not).
 
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azertydu91

Hard to Kill
I could never understand how we get a consoles with all these features for $400 but TVs that match the full potential of the console are $1000+.
See it like a ddos attack.It is oversimplified sure but it is easier to send a signal full of data than to receive it and treat it.(Of course it was implied but within milliseconds).
I wouldn't call that an universal truth but an active reception always requires more work than sending it.That's why it take more effort to debunk lies than to spread them.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
So instead to ask for better game from developers you prefer a band-aid.
That is what is happening here.

VRR is a workaround fix not a root cause fix... anybody that works with software development knows that.
If you fix the root cause, the messed performance in your game, you won't ever need VRR.

And that is exactly what can be archived in a fixed hardware platform like consoles... the opposite of PC where you indeed needs the workaround because performance is out of control from developers due the million of hardware combinations.

PS. I'm not against the workaround, the VRR feature should exists on console but it should be needed in very specific cases and not to be something mandatory to have a better gaming experience... we need better compromisses from developers.
Since it is a fanboy war point some people are accepting that console gaming becomes a “optimise it yourself, here are all the preferences” land like PC is it seeems. The quality bar keeps going lower and lower.
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
I could never understand how we get a consoles with all these features for $400 but TVs that match the full potential of the console are $1000+.
Yeah especially since you also have these cheap ass TVs with 4K displays going for like $400. What’s actually pushing up the prices for the expensive TVs? Is it the panels or the processors?

I payed $2K+ for my Sony TV back in 2017, it can do 4K, Dolby Vision, even 120hz (in 1080p) and is bright like the sun itself, but it doesn’t have VRR and Dolby Vision game mode etc. When I upgrade I want something in the same calibre but with all the new techs. That’s why I’m still waiting, hoping the prices will drop.
 

FrankWza

Member
Oh the old HDMI 2.1 standard hasn't been finalized yet despite no real evidence that this is the case.
There’s also no evidence that the update is coming this month but there’s still 11 pages talking about it. The speculation covers both of these theories and they’re both mentioned in the OP.
Halo Infinite having broken VRR has got nothing to do with the HDMI 2.1 standard, just that the game has numerous technical issues.
Sony has both sides of the HDMI 2.1 protocol changing to consider…displays and components. They also make audio equipment and apparently the changes are being made to ARC and eARC as well. If there are going to be changes 2.1 spec features then they are better off releasing firmware with the entire change in addition to what is available now rather than having to do more updates that include big changes. They might as well avoid the bad look that Halo is currently experiencing when they know that a potential change to 2.1 can be game/console/tv/audio breaking and would be far worse for their business because it covers more than just games. CEC,ARc and eARC are all notoriously finicky and HDMI 2.1 has been a shit show. There’s not even a bandwidth standard at this point. LG released TVs in back to back years that lowered bandwidth by 20% They absolutely need to deliver on this but it’s not all about PS5 for them.
 

Leyasu

Gold Member
Since it is a fanboy war point some people are accepting that console gaming becomes a “optimise it yourself, here are all the preferences” land like PC is it seeems. The quality bar keeps going lower and lower.

Homer Simpson Wow GIF by Justin

Fanboy war aside, your post is nonsense.

Unfortunately, it is rare that games are locked and 120hz games especially from 3rd party devs. I can’t see that trend changing. Even with uncle Sony single handedly trying to improve the standards within the industry by continuing to withhold vrr from their consoles.

What a ridiculous post
 
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Fredrik

Gold Member
Since it is a fanboy war point some people are accepting that console gaming becomes a “optimise it yourself, here are all the preferences” land like PC is it seeems. The quality bar keeps going lower and lower.
Unstable framerates has existed since the start of gaming, I think we’ve given the developers enough time to sort it out by now so I’ll gladly tweak things myself while they keep stumbling around focusing on the wrong things.
 

Loxus

Member
Yeah especially since you also have these cheap ass TVs with 4K displays going for like $400. What’s actually pushing up the prices for the expensive TVs? Is it the panels or the processors?

I payed $2K+ for my Sony TV back in 2017, it can do 4K, Dolby Vision, even 120hz (in 1080p) and is bright like the sun itself, but it doesn’t have VRR and Dolby Vision game mode etc. When I upgrade I want something in the same calibre but with all the new techs. That’s why I’m still waiting, hoping the prices will drop.
I normally buy a TV that matches the console price, I did it for PS3 & 4.

Where I'm from electronic device retails very expensive.
This is the prices of consoles alone and this is without scalping.

$1usd = $2 where I'm from, so that's $1200 USD for the PS5. You can only imagine the prices of our TVs.
 
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Loxus

Member
That is how it works.
The game needs to send the VRR instuctions.

Now where you generate them it is another case.
nVidia choose to put the generation of VRR instructions at driver level in an automated form and to make it works better or 100% they needs driver update when each game releases.

But that is nVidia way... they put a lot of games optimizations in drivers... so every time a new game releases they release a driver that boost performance on that game.

MS probably have a similar solution at OS/System level but it not working for Halo Infinite so the developer will need to do something in the game to makes it works... another way is MS put the VRR feature at SDK (GDK) level so the game are already developed with VRR... some console features are locked at SDK level (some you can disable others not).
I thought it was the GPU?
 

Demojay13

Member
BFI for gaming adds about 60ms of input lag unless on on oled,makes picture darker and makes picture flicker. Why would you want BFI and VRR at the same time?
 

Fredrik

Gold Member
I normally buy a TV that matches the console price, I did it for PS3 & 4.

Where I'm from electronic device retails very expensive.
This is the prices of consoles alone and this is without scalping.

$1usd = $2 where I'm from, so that's $1200 USD for the PS5. You can only imagine the prices of our TVs.
Holy crap I don’t know what to say 😦
 

ethomaz

Banned
I thought it was the GPU?
On PC? It is implemented at driver level.
You can enable/disable at driver level too.
Some games doesn't work or have issues (like Fallout 4 with FreeSync... the updated AMD driver disable VRR for it automatically).

Both nVidia and AMD implement it at driver level.
Exception are some enhanced features like FreeSync Premium that needs to be implemented at game level... so just a few games supports FreeSync Premium.

With a update in drivers on PC your old GPU supports FreeSync or G-sync... I believe Freesync goes down to GCN2 and G-Sync down to GTX 6xx... and the games that have the feature enabled/disabled are updated with each driver update (I don't know if AMD or Bethesda fixed Freesync or Fallout 4 to works... I guess not it come disabled by default).
 
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Loxus

Member
On PC? It is implemented at driver level.
You can enable/disable at driver level too.
Some games doesn't work or have issues (like Fallout 4 with FreeSync... the updated AMD driver disable VRR for it automatically).

Both nVidia and AMD implement it at driver level.
Exception are some enhanced features like FreeSync Premium that needs to be implemented at game level... so just a few games supports FreeSync Premium.

With a update in drivers on PC your old GPU supports FreeSync or G-sync... I believe Freesync goes down to GCN2 and G-Sync down to GTX 6xx... and the games that have the feature enabled/disabled are updated with each driver update (I don't know if AMD or Bethesda fixed Freesync or Fallout 4 to works... I guess not it come disabled by default).
So on Xbox, VRR is automatic or it needs to be implemented into each game?
 
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ethomaz

Banned
So on Xbox, VRR is automatic or it needs to be implemented into each game?
I have no ideia.

The best guesses is either automated in OS or forced/default in SDK (GDK).

Halo Infinite not supporting it hits at some SDK level where you can enable/disable at game basis even if there is OS automation.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
I would assume each game as it’s not working in Halo (at launch anyhow) but might just be broken
We will know it if the fix is a game update or OS update.
Most probably will be a game update that hints at VRR being enabled at SDK.

I can see it being a SDK feature that allow devs to fix it in case of issues without need a OS update in MS side… so you can enable, disable, fix, etc at game basis.
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
Jesus some of you are like you were born yesterday in a fantasy land were all the games on console are perfect...

You can demand perfection from devs and vrr can be see as a band aid patch but the reality is that unoptimized games on console are the norm since forever...you have too much faith on devs or you are too naive or you just have shitty memory guys...pick one.

The fantasy world that you dream doesn't exist.
 

ethomaz

Banned
I think games that have double buffered Vsync or no vsync at all do not work with VRR.
It doesn’t?
On PC at least AMD recommends FreeSync + VSync to have better results.

And FreeSync works without VSync… they are independent of each other.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
Jesus some of you are like you were born yesterday in a fantasy land were all the games on console are perfect...

You can demand perfection from devs and vrr can be see as a band aid patch but the reality is that unoptimized games on console are the norm since forever...you have too much faith on devs or you are too naive or you just have shitty memory guys...pick one.

The fantasy world that you dream doesn't exist.
I can only talk with what I experience or see in analysis.

This gen performance issues are way bigger than last gen… it is even worse than what we had on PS3 that were subpar in most games.

The industry/devs is moving to less and less optimizations (cut costs?).

Even so there are several locked games on PS5… there is nothing wrong in wanting most if not all games to be locked.
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
So instead to ask for better game from developers you prefer a band-aid.
That is what is happening here.

VRR is a workaround fix not a root cause fix... anybody that works with software development knows that.
If you fix the root cause, the messed performance in your game, you won't ever need VRR.

And that is exactly what can be archived in a fixed hardware platform like consoles... the opposite of PC where you indeed needs the workaround because performance is out of control from developers due the million of hardware combinations.

PS. I'm not against the workaround, the VRR feature should exists on console but it should be needed in very specific cases and not to be something mandatory to have a better gaming experience... we need better compromisses from developers.
You live in a dream world my friend.

Of course i ask For a perfect work from devs but me asking doesn't make it more possible, never was and never will be.

So instead of crying because devs don't live in my fantasy world we can at least demand a features to smooth things when devs can't achieve a locked framerate.

I'm sorry if i sound harsh but some of you really have a strange view of the real world.
 

ethomaz

Banned
You live in a dream world my friend.

Of course i ask For a perfect work from devs but me asking doesn't make it more possible, never was and never will be.

So instead of crying because devs don't live in my fantasy world we can at least demand a features to smooth things when devs can't achieve a locked framerate.

I'm sorry if i sound harsh but some of you really have a strange view of the real world.
It is not a dream.

If you stop to buy games with performance issues devs will start to listen you.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
I can only talk with what I experience or see in analysis.

This gen performance issues are way bigger than last gen… it is even worse than what we had on PS3 that were subpar in most games.

The industry/devs is moving to less and less optimizations (cut costs?).

Even so there are several locked games on PS5… there is nothing wrong in wanting most if not all games to be locked.
So all of this discussion was a complicate scheme to praise sony locked games?!

Holy shit you baited me for good, kudos :lollipop_squinting:

And for your information, what you think its locked because you watched df testing a couple of hours of a game is not really as locked as you think, maybe you don't notice the frame drops because you mostly play on console, but almost no sony game is REALLY locked.

In the past gen, the only really locked game was halo 5 while gow performance mode had 60 frames when you looked to a wall...never forget dude.

And the more we go forward with the gen, the more shitty the performance modes are gonna be because devs are gonna try to use 110% of an already "old" hardware.
Enjoy launch games and crossgen games with semi-stable 60 frames because it is not gonna last.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
So all of this discussion was a complicate scheme to praise sony locked games?!

Holy shit you baited me for good, kudos :lollipop_squinting:

And for your information, what you think its locked because you watched df testing a couple of hours of a game is not really as locked as you think, maybe you don't notice the frame drops because you mostly play on console, but almost no sony game is REALLY locked.

In the past gen, the only really locked game was halo 5 while gow performance mode had 60 frames when you looked to a wall...never forget dude.
Wut?

You are in a Sony thread, talking about a future Sony feature, with PS gamers discussing it… my comments while can be applied to all consoles I’m of course talking about PlayStation.

I mean what are you issue exactly?

And yes there are several games locked on PS4 (first-party or 3rd-party) so do for PS5.
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
Wut?

You are in a Sony thread, talking about a future Sony feature, with PS gamers discussing it…

I mean what are you issue exactly?

And yes there are several games locked on PS4 (first-party or 3rd-party) so do for PS5.
We are in a ps5 topic but we were talking in general since exclusives games are like 5% of what you play and third party use vrr aswell, so even if ps5 are all locked (and they are not) you still have 95% of other games where vrr can actually be useful.

The problem is you people defending sony for a missing feature they promised, they don't need your defence.
 

ethomaz

Banned
We are in a ps5 topic but we were talking in general since exclusives games are like 5% of what you play and third party use vrr aswell, so even if ps5 are all locked (and they are not) you still have 95% of other games where vrr can actually be useful.

The problem is you people defending sony for a missing feature they promised, they don't need your defence.
I’m not even sure what are you talking about?

Nobody said all games are locked… I said most if all games should be locked.

Interpretation at best lol

I don’t even defended the missing feature lol the opposite I blamed Sony for that… they should delivery the feature.

Please read before made weird claims from something you have no ideia of what is being discussed.
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
I’m not even sure what are you talking about?

Nobody said all games are locked… I said most if all games should be locked.

Interpretation at best lol

I don’t even defended the missing feature lol the opposite I blamed Sony for that… they should delivery the feature.

Please read before made weird claims from something you have no ideia of what is being discussed.
If you are not defending sony why are we even discussing if vrr is useful or not?!

I'm ok with you demanding more from devs, but i'm a realist\pessimistic guy so i know that just asking for something is not gonna make that thing happen.


The fact that you have some sony game that are close to been locked doesn't mean that the other sony games or the majority of third party games are gonna be locked, and that's why we need the fucking vrr.

It's like we are discussing in circles here...
 
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ethomaz

Banned
If you are not defending sony why are we even discussing if vrr is useful or not?!

I'm ok with you demanding more from devs, but i'm a realist\pessimistic guy so i know that just asking for something is not gonna make that thing happen.


The fact that you have some sony game that are close to been locked doesn't mean that the other sony games or the majority of third party games are gonna be locked, and that's why we need the fucking vrr.

It's like we are discussing in circles here...
Man what are you talking about?
 

ethomaz

Banned
Not gonna waste more time explaining such a simple concept.

Good day sir.
Man...

Games should not need VRR... games should be locked to target framerate.
Sony is really way late with VRR feature... they promised and needs to delivery it... there is no excuse for that.
There are several games (1st and 3rd parties) that are locked so it is not something mythical or fantasy.
This generation is become worse on game development side compared to previous generations and that is unacceptable but you know people like you will probably accept anything they delivery lol

The discussion moved from another level and you still sticks to whatever you thought on your mind and so your posts makes no sense to what is even being talked.
I mean what Sony games have to do with what is being discussed at all?
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Unfortunately, it is rare that games are locked and 120hz games especially from 3rd party devs. I can’t see that trend changing. Even with uncle Sony single handedly trying to improve the standards within the industry by continuing to withhold vrr from their consoles.
No, not a ridiculous post but hey that is very much your opinion.

Beyond calling it nonsense and ridiculous (without saying why much if at all) and a Sony dig (as if I were arguing that VRR should be held back out of spite), you basically concluded the post with a “well of course we need to lower the standards we expect from devs because… well… it is what it is, keep calm and carry on”.
 
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Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
You live in a dream world my friend.

Of course i ask For a perfect work from devs but me asking doesn't make it more possible, never was and never will be.

So instead of crying because devs don't live in my fantasy world we can at least demand a features to smooth things when devs can't achieve a locked framerate.

I'm sorry if i sound harsh but some of you really have a strange view of the real world.

It's amazing people are so desperate to downplay a useful feature that benefits gamers and has been promised.
You can count the number of locked 120hz games on one hand with fingers to spare, also saying developers "should" have locked frame rates, if that was the case then Digital Foundry wouldn't need to exist, the reality is locked framerates are a rarity above 30fps. What developers should do and what they do are two different things.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
It's amazing people are so desperate to downplay a useful feature that benefits gamers and has been promised.
You can count the number of locked 120hz games on one hand with fingers to spare, also saying developers "should" have locked frame rates, if that was the case then Digital Foundry wouldn't need to exist, the reality is locked framerates are a rarity above 30fps. What developers should do and what they do are two different things.
That mentality that create the game developers from today and future lol
No matter they ship any shit and people eat it up lol

That gifs shows exactly the issue.
Games should not be shipped in that state on any fixed hardware.
 
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Riky

My little VRR pleasure pearl goes vrrrooommm.
That mentality that create the game developers from today and future lol
No matter they ship any shit and people eat it up lol

It's always been the case, remember Bayonetta on PS3? I'm sure the developers had VRR in mind when they shipped that. Try dealing in realities instead of a fantasy world where developers ship locked framerate games, they don't and never have done.
 

GymWolf

Gold Member
Man...

Games should not need VRR... games should be locked to target framerate.
Sony is really way late with VRR feature... they promised and needs to delivery it... there is no excuse for that.
There are several games (1st and 3rd parties) that are locked so it is not something mythical or fantasy.
This generation is become worse on game development side compared to previous generations and that is unacceptable but you know people like you will probably accept anything they delivery lol

The discussion moved from another level and you still sticks to whatever you thought on your mind and so your posts makes no sense to what is even being talked.
Maybe you just hate me because I'm a Sony fanboy and that is all.
Nah dude i exposed my points very clearly and the discussion didn't moved an inch because we are saying the same exact things for hours.

You live in your dream world where devs are gonna make perfect games from now on if gamers refuse vrr because its just a band-aid, and i live in the real one where hoping for something good doesn't mean shit, devs are still gonna do the fuck they want, no matter how much we want perfect games from them, so vrr is a must to have.

Nobody wants games with shitty framerate, but if history since now is a clue, this is gonna happen anyway and nor you or me can do shit to change things.

There is no reason in this world to not have vrr, and who accepts vrr is not accepting broken games with a smile on his face, they are just accepting reality of things because we are not naive.

I guess your optimism is in contrast with my realism.
 
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