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PS5’s True “Generation-Defining” Games Won’t Come Until 2022 Says Jim Ryan

ZehDon

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Not at all really, people just heard what they wanted to hear.
Ah, true - it wasn’t Sony making inferences that ran contrary to their competitor for free PR points, it was forum members, redditors, YouTubers, and journalists all interpreting Sony wrong... despite each of those groups all waking away with the exact same interpretation of what Sony had said. But it wasn’t what Sony said that lead everyone astray - it was everyone else’s fault. Brilliant.

🤡
 
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hybrid_birth

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I keep asking for proof and noone seems to be able to give me any. Where are the receipts? There is no generational leap between Spiderman on PS4 and Spiderman MM on PS5. It's the same game engine, similar assets, etc.. How do you guys define a generational leap? Why does it only include a Sony game and not a 3rd party game? Surely they make leaps and bounds too.

I'm still looking for a game on the PS5 that is a complete overrun of the PS4 in image quality aside from the minor upscaled 4k and 60FPS.
I am not even going to give you the joy of proving me wrong when you reply to this post.

So I decided to not write a response to this.

Good day sir. And enjoy eating the crow in 2022.
 
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Nhranaghacon

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FTFY


Will they deliver entirely destructible scenarios!?!? Oh, they mean even more of those "cinematic experiences" huh....
Well, i suppose there's still Teardown to look forward i guess...

Actually fully destructible environments are now simply up to the art team, simulated physics rendering is another thing however.
Even so, the method of canning physically based physics animations and simply delivering them as an animation package will work wonders.

 

Guilty_AI

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Actually fully destructible environments are now simply up to the art team, simulated physics rendering is another thing however.
Even so, the method of canning physically based physics animations and simply delivering them as an animation package will work wonders.
Well, i do mean simulated physics however. Debris look cool but they're largely just part of the eye candy.
I'm talking about tearing down buildings to the ground, simulated materials where you can burn wood with fire, making holes on the earth. Something like Noita but 3D.
 
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PSX: FFVII/SOTN, etc. all came around two years in
PS2: not so sure, I wasn't around much
PS3: God of War, Wipeout, Uncharted, etc. all around/after 2008
PS4: Bloodborne, UC4, etc. all after the second year (I loved those two first years of PS4, but they weren't defining)
PS5: well... same different thing.
And then they will be delayed till 2023
It's worth the wait.
 

Nhranaghacon

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Well, i do mean simulated physics however. Debris look cool but they're largely just part of the eye candy.
I'm talking about tearing down buildings to the ground, simulated materials where you can burn wood with fire, making holes on the earth. Something like Noita but 3D.
What you are referring to can be handled by the above, and there is in fact examples of building's being burnt leveled tot he ground using the technology - that is here now.

And a considerably weaker example compared to actual physics rendering - machines will for another decade be stuck using canned render animation's but can literally accomplish simulated/canned animation variant's with ease. I mean, you could program ad infinite, as many complex animations as you want for the way a hole can be dug up, or the way water might be guided along a path of earth you've digged up; that is up to the artists. As such expect to see canned animation's jump to the forefront when hardware capable of rendering those animations on the fly become available due to machine learning/standardized practices.

Even so Extremely advanced physics render's such as

Are well within reach now as long as they are captured as an animation sequence - but will eventually come into their own as
actual rendering parameters allow them and done on the fly in hardware with minimal canned animation references

But sadly, as I've pointed - this potential could be used in games this generation - but the art team has to set out and begin
creating massive animation libraries right now and it would strain the art team.
 
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thelastword

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IN JIM WE TRUST!
If Demons and Spider are only the beginning and not even budging on PS5's true potential yet.....I shudder to think of what we will see in 2022.....I know ND is gonna melt minds and eyes.......That geometry engine , the cache scrubbers and I/O pipeline will take the graphical and performant crown of PS games to new heights.....I think that UE5 demo will look like PONG when PS Studios are running a well oiled ground up PS5 game....
 

Cleared_Hot

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This shouldn't surprise anyone.
The best time for any console doesn't really begin until 2-3 years after release with potentially the greatest title releasing within a year or two before the next gen.
 
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dano1

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Love how some of you think developers are just going to shit out true next Gen games day one!! These games have been in development for over 3 years of course almost all are going to be on both systems 🙄
 

Md Ray

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That guy is wishing upon a star.

Those words are so misleading and that's why people expect CGI graphics from nothing but a mid-low end graphics card. It's not in the cards.

All the bandwidth is already taken up in higher pixel count.

You heard it hear first, you will NOT see any kind of features that the PC GPUs struggle with on next-gen consoles. Period. All the 3d features that are already out is all you'll get. I can see an UE5 demo turning into a game but that's not much better than what we see today tbh.

Wait for PS6/PS7 or XSX3. PC is already showing the max visual tech features you can get and the consoles can't run them all.

This is one of the dumbest shit I ever read.

That's like saying GTAV is all the PS4 can do, don't expect massive visuals, animations upgrade like RDR2 on it. It will never happen.

Or

TLOU: Remastered is all the PS4 can do, that's it. It has hit its limitation don't expect anything like TLOU Part 2 on that hardware.

Oh right.. Valhalla running on 3090 at 96% GPU usage is equivalent to the consoles running that game at 30% GPU usage.. They have so much more to go!!
By that logic that's all a 3090 can muster. There won't be any game that will look better than AC Valhalla in 2-3 years. The 3090 has hit its limitation already and there's no room for improvement. :messenger_tears_of_joy: Right.
 
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Yoboman

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OK. SO what you just said is that only a PS5 (for consoles since the Xbox is a multiplatform console and is tied to the PC) in it's low-end hardware that can barely do RT will release visually stunning 1st party ONLY titles and pave the way for the ignorant and unskilled 3rd party developers like CDPR, Activision, Ubisoft, ID SOFTWARE and pretty much everyone except that small handful of Sony devs.




You are more blind to Sony than even the most irrational of Sony zealots..

I'm done talking to you..
All the devs you just mentioned spent all gen behind Sony on a visuals front. How very rude to suggest they will remain behind! THESE BLIND ZEALOTS

Only VFXVeteran can see the truth behind graphics
 

Lethal01

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Ah, true - it wasn’t Sony making inferences that ran contrary to their competitor for free PR points, it was forum members, redditors, YouTubers, and journalists all interpreting Sony wrong... despite each of those groups all waking away with the exact same interpretation of what Sony had said. But it wasn’t what Sony said that lead everyone astray - it was everyone else’s fault. Brilliant.

Agreed, they everyone's minds were filled with the talk of microsoft saying that they wont have exclusive next gen games for years and took Sonys statments to mean there wouldn't be a cross gen game.
It was really silly to see it all play out.
 

Somnium

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I've always found that to be the case tbh.

It's not until we're a few years into a new console gen till I finally play a title that really cements the feeling of having crossed that threshold into next gen.
You might have a couple of launch gems here or there, but devs usually take a few years familiarizing themselves with new console architecture and the latest iteration of game engines.
That's usually when the more ambitious projects start to appear.

So what you’re saying is GoW was delayed to 2022
 
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Guilty_AI

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What you are referring to can be handled by the above, and there is in fact examples of building's being burnt leveled tot he ground using the technology - that is here now.
I know. Even not considering UE4 there are games that do this, or did from way back. But not only is rarely used but they usually have their sets shortcomings. The closest one i've seen is Teardown, and there obvious limitations in the fact its clearly voxel visuals or that the performance can severely tank depending on the situation.


And a considerably weaker example compared to actual physics rendering - machines will for another decade be stuck using canned render animation's but can literally accomplish simulated/canned animation variant's with ease. I mean, you could program ad infinite, as many complex animations as you want for the way a hole can be dug up, or the way water might be guided along a path of earth you've digged up; that is up to the artists. As such expect to see canned animation's jump to the forefront when hardware capable of rendering those animations on the fly become available due to machine learning/standardized practices.

Even so Extremely advanced physics render's such as

Are well within reach now as long as they are captured as an animation sequence - but will eventually come into their own as
actual rendering parameters allow them and done on the fly in hardware with minimal canned animation references
Its not really a viable approach though, as you yourself pointed out.
I mean, that just further shows we aren't really entering a generation thats close to showing everything we want to see, far from it apparently.
The biggest hope we have for proper real time destruction and fluid physics as of now is learning algorithms.



Then there is the matter if big developers will actually take up the task since corps are more interested in putting out cinematic-looking promotional videos and screenshots
 

Nhranaghacon

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I know. Even not considering UE4 there are games that do this, or did from way back. But not only is rarely used but they usually have their sets shortcomings. The closest one i've seen is Teardown, and there obvious limitations in the fact its clearly voxel visuals or that the performance can severely tank depending on the situation.



Its not really a viable approach though, as you yourself pointed out.
I mean, that just further shows we aren't really entering a generation thats close to showing everything we want to see, far from it apparently.
The biggest hope we have for proper real time destruction and fluid physics as of now is learning algorithms.



Then there is the matter if big developers will actually take up the task since corps are more interested in putting out cinematic-looking promotional videos and screenshots
Thing is, I expect - even this generation - yes huge strain on dev's to do, to create thousands upon thousands of alternate animations

Machine Learning on the other hand could be hand curated to create million's of standardized animation's libraries, and I see something like that becoming as ubiquitous as Quixel is to Unreal Engine.
A standardized animation library that is literally... updated all the time - with thousands upon thousands of alternate animation sets - this solution is a stark reality (stark due to the fact that development may or may not be underway) and something that should be able to be delivered this gen - the dev community on the other hand is what concern's me, most are as *cough* unvetted as any random forum poster/ and simply may or may not be pushing for these type's of technologies to be utilized.

However vast MLlibrary's of physics animations could be handedly provided to us, this generation
 
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Out of the 2021 line up
GT, Silent Hill, Rift Apart, Destruction AS = ps5 exclusive
Horizon2, GOW”2”, Kena, little devil inside= Ps4/ps5

All this means GOW2 and Horzion 2 are going to be 4K 60fps with raytracing on PS5. while PS4 version will be 1080 30fps.
 
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Fahdis

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Hahahahahaahah, I get to buy the slim version in 2022 and it'll be cheaper while all you guys get stuck with that ugly monster. Patience is everything.

*sleeps with his comfy blanky* feeling neet.
 
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VFXVeteran

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That's like saying GTAV is all the PS4 can do, don't expect massive visuals, animations upgrade like RDR2 on it. It will never happen.

That's where you are disconnecting with me. MASSIVE VISUALS. Those 2 words don't belong in your argument.

By that logic that's all a 3090 can muster. There won't be any game that will look better than AC Valhalla in 2-3 years. The 3090 has hit its limitation already and there's no room for improvement. :messenger_tears_of_joy: Right.

From what AC:Valhalla is doing.. nope. The derivative of Valhalla visuals and visuals 3yrs from now won't be much different.

Case in point: Metro: Exodus. 2yr old game with RT. Valhalla looks better but not by much. I can find several examples of this. If a RTX game comes out, it *can* look significantly better than Valhalla but the hardware will be helped by DLSS so the visuals can be pushed a bit.
 

Raonak

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I'm excited for these 2022 games, I want all games to have the level of detail that you are in demons. That game looks sooooo good.

legitimately curious what they have cooking.
 
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Nhranaghacon

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That's where you are disconnecting with me. MASSIVE VISUALS. Those 2 words don't belong in your argument.



From what AC:Valhalla is doing.. nope. The derivative of Valhalla visuals and visuals 3yrs from now won't be much different.

Case in point: Metro: Exodus. 2yr old game with RT. Valhalla looks better but not by much. I can find several examples of this. If a RTX game comes out, it *can* look significantly better than Valhalla but the hardware will be helped by DLSS so the visuals can be pushed a bit.
Valhalla is not a game that should be discussed when mentioning true next gen offering's, it offer's a modest boost to quality of asset's through high polygon count's and more foliage - it/nor Spidey/nor Demons Souls/Nor anything actually released at this point is a true next gen title - and gamer's everywhere took notice when both Sony and Microsoft stated it will be 2022 at earliest before console specific next gen titles start showing up. 2023 in Microsoft's case.
 
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mckmas8808

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Out of the 2021 line up
GT, Silent Hill, Rift Apart, Destruction AS = ps5 exclusive
Horizon2, GOW”2”, Kena, little devil inside= Ps4/ps5

All this means GOW2 and Horzion 2 are going to be 4K 60fps with raytracing on PS5. while PS4 version will be 1080 30fps.

This basically!
That's where you are disconnecting with me. MASSIVE VISUALS. Those 2 words don't belong in your argument.



From what AC:Valhalla is doing.. nope. The derivative of Valhalla visuals and visuals 3yrs from now won't be much different.

Case in point: Metro: Exodus. 2yr old game with RT. Valhalla looks better but not by much. I can find several examples of this. If a RTX game comes out, it *can* look significantly better than Valhalla but the hardware will be helped by DLSS so the visuals can be pushed a bit.

Spiderman:MM looks clearly better than Valhalla and they are both open-world launch games.
 
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FireFistAce

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When you've got things like miles morales, hzd2, gow2 and so on being cross gen... The other big releases are ratchet and demons, right? So that's more than half being crossgen. Do you remember that happening back when the ps4 launched?
First, we don’t know about GoW2. Second we don’t know everything Sony will be releasing in the PS5’s first 1.5 years. So far we’ve got Demon’s Souls and Astrobot with Ratchet being confirmed as well.
 

AeneaGames

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This pretty much confirms Ratchet, Horizon, GoW and GT7 are cross gen games.



If you read the article you know that is untrue.

All he said was that devs need a few years to use the hardware to it's fullest. He never said there won't be PS5 exclusives before 2022. Demons Souls already is, R&C will be too, etc.
 
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longdi

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History will tell you that it’s in the second or third year that the developers really hit their stride. Developers typically need a little bit of time to familiarize themselves [with the hardware]. But it’s probably 2022 that you’re going to see some wonderful things in the same way that it was 2015 [or] 2016 for the previous generation. When the generation defining-games started to be published.

lolol, this is the exact(well, almost) wordings i wrote when sonygaf were cheering #webelieveingenerations FUD earlier this year. :messenger_savoring: :messenger_ok:
 

Bitmap Frogs

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First, we don’t know about GoW2. Second we don’t know everything Sony will be releasing in the PS5’s first 1.5 years. So far we’ve got Demon’s Souls and Astrobot with Ratchet being confirmed as well.

GOW2 is a done deal. It's a 2021 game and Rian said 2022 for "generation defining games".

But yeah, that's the whole slate of actual ps5 sony exclusives: a pack-in demo for the dual sense, demon's souls and ratchet. They're going to have more crossgens which is my point of contention.
 

DonJuanSchlong

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I see a bunch of same people trolling in this thread as the AMD thread, before and after results of rdna2 benchmarks came to light. Why do some people think only Sony can do "next gen games"? I am seriously asking this, as there's a bigger disparity in hardware between PC and consoles, vs ps5 and xsx.


Cyberpunk will be the true first next gen game, and there's only one place to play on day one if you want truly, "next gen" upgrades.
 

Kumomeme

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2 years still acceptable, since that usually the generation transition period which us, kind of already expected.
 

Kamina

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I am happy for the PS4/Pro -only owners who can still enjoy Horizon 2 and GoW 2 😊
 
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the_master

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Halo was day one generation defining on xvox, as where Mario 64 on N64, ridge racer/wipeout/destruction derby on Playstation, soul Calibut 2 on Dreamcast, even Bloodborne came really early on PS4.

Just wanted to leave this here for people saying that this is always the case
 

pasterpl

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So no proper next gen games on ps5 until 2022/2023, this is 1-2 years after these will start to arrive on Xbox Series consoles. So many Sony fans on this forum were making fun of Xbox and because of this and now Jim Ryan delivers such a blow to their narrative. Lots of crow should be eaten by some Sony fans on neogaf.
 

IDKFA

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This pretty much confirms Ratchet, Horizon, GoW and GT7 are cross gen games.

No. That's not what Jim is saying. If that were the case Demon's Souls remake would be on PS4. I highly doubt Rachet will be on the PS4 either considering it's rift system uses the SSD for real-time near instantaneous travel between different areas, which is something that would be impossible on the PS4.

He's saying it may take a year or so before a majority of developers really get to grips with the hardware and we really see what these consoles can really do, just like it has been for every generation before.
 

RaySoft

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Thanks RaySoft RaySoft for a meaningful discussion! Appreciate it!



That's exciting for sure. It will absolutely shorten the pipeline and allow multitask shader units to operate based on demand. But the bottleneck for lighting and shading is still going to be there unfortunately.



Not at all. I'm more caught up in actual rendering of pixels as that's most definitely the final destination of the rendering pipeline and will make the most visual impact moving forward. We still have crude lighting, limited shadow generation, janky tessellation, severely limited LOD management, and big slowdowns with implementing complicated volume FX and procedural geometry/textures. These are the things I worked on and see the biggest leap in visuals going forward.




There is no other path forward my friend. We must move towards the holy grail of rendering. Screenspace solutions just aren't going to cut it anymore. We are at the limits there.



I have a friend that worked at ND before. They are commended for the hard work they do, but it is clear to me that other studios do more R&D and tech. You would be suprised at the passing of work from studio to studio.

I worked with the guy that implemented the new GGX BRDF at Disney. HIs solution was derived from months of studying all the BRDFs and coming up with the best one. When Disney released the paper and the gaming companies saw how easy the solution was, that paved the way for PBR shaders in the gaming industry. People who worked at DIsney went to work for RAD and The Order was made. To this day, many studios, including ND adopt techniques from other developers and apply their work. So I said all of that to say that ND realy aren't the magicians that come up with this stuff. It's adopted very well on the console - true, but they aren't the inventors of this tech.



I can agree that ND can make something look good because of their talented artists. No doubt. But there comes a time when you can't just fake things anymore to push the visuals to new levels. And I believe we are at that point.
I agree full realtime pathtracing is the future, but we are not quite there yet, not even the new nvidia cards. (I know its capable of full realtime pathtracing, but remember you have to have your gameengine running as well) The consoles are very far from it. Maybe nvidias next rtx release will change that but it will take time for the industry to adapt too.

Regarding ND, Sony's ICE team are based there. They do R&D that benefits all of Sonys WW studio's.