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[Valhelm]

This upsets me SO MUCH.

There are legitimate issues that need to be fixed with regard to men's rights, and these assholes are making it impossible to talk about those issues without attracting the sort of people they produce. They also make it impossible to talk about women's issues without attracting them either, though in a more vile context.

Men's Rights Activists really only want to be contrary to feminists and I think a lot of them just want some kind of "boys' only" solidarity.

The movement gives them a place to talk about what they hate about women under the guise of promoting equality.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The movement gives them a place to talk about what they hate about women under the guise of promoting equality.

I feel it's also a place where they can manipulate their insecurities into reasons other people suck. They are basically shouting "it's not my fault" in the worst, most selfish way, while most other political groups shout it in a more productive fashion in order to make things better for everyone. American conservatives vs liberals in a way.

 

[hodgy100]

I just hate how manliness is measured by the number of sexual partners you've had.

While it only exist's in the more immature circles, it still does happen, and even from people that I didn't expect to hear it from. I've been outright dismissed in unrelated discussions because my "opinion doesnt count because i'm a virgin" then when I inform them I'm not it instantly goes into a dick waving competition of how many people they have been with. I understand this is probably due to them putting me down to make themselves feel better, but it still completely sucks that my entire person is being judged based on that one metric other than everything else I've done.

 

[Seth C]

I dislike that, as a male educator, I am more scrutinized by my peers, and that I am unable to work in a room with students without another (female) adult. But I attribute that more to the prevalence of perversion from certain members of society fucking up the situation rather than my "rights" as a "man".

Seem to me there are plenty of female educators sexually abusing students. No matter how much it happens though, women as a whole aren't cast in the same negative light.

 

[Winterfang]

I kind of see Men's Right as the default rights. So it's weird to see it separately. On more focused issues like child custody, I'll see it more as Father's rights.

 

[User 100115]

Why doesn't someone start up a 'no MRAs, you guys can fuck off' men's rights movement? One that doesn't attack women and feminism and actually focus on the issues that men face? I'd be a proud supporter of that movement.

 

[Kinitari]

I think this is an interesting conversation, but I worry that while the article seems to be coming from a place I agree with, it isn't framing this as accurately as I'd like. To be clearer - this is an example of what I mean

Last month, members of the organization Men’s Rights Edmonton hung large “wanted”-style posters of a professor all over the University of Alberta campus, calling her a bigot. Her crime? She was involved in the university’s anti-rape campaign.

I have a lot of trouble with this. Not because I think that this misleading persay, or incorrect - but because there might have been the opportunity to present the thought process of some members from MRE - but the simplified version of her 'crime' isn't really giving me any information.

There were probably plenty of people involved in the university's anti-rape campaign - were they all targeted? Was she the only one? If she was the only one, there must have been a particular reason - most likely not even a remotely good one, but I would like to know why.

If the reasoning is something like "she supports a measure that would encourage men on campus to attend voluntary classes" or something like that, well then we could potentially get to the heart of the issue - we (or at least I) could better understand where the issues are arising from. But this comically villainous representation of this group isn't really helping, unless the goal is simply to vilify them. From what I have seen, there are a LOT of absolutely abhorrent and ridiculous thing that come out of MRAs - and I've spent next to no time looking into the movements, but enough to still see some horrible shit. But I can't believe that it's always like that, and I can't believe that the men involved in these movements are basically the same type of caricature often used to describe radical feminists - frothing at the mouth, with wild hatred for women.

Why doesn't someone start up a 'no MRAs, you guys can fuck off' men's rights movement? One that doesn't attack women and feminism and actually focus on the issues that men face? I'd be a proud supporter of that movement.

First I imagine it's not that easy. Trying to create a group that can be significantly separate enough in branding that it can be far removed from the MRAs that we have now, while still being clear that the aim is to support men specifically. Secondly, I'm sure some exist - but people just assume that they don't, and these movements aren't interesting enough to garner any attention - or they are eventually commandeered by the less ideal movements.

 

[Cyan]

I think this is an interesting conversation, but I worry that while the article seems to be coming from a place I agree with, it isn't framing this as accurately as I'd like. To be clearer - this is an example of what I mean



I have a lot of trouble with this. Not because I think that this misleading persay, or incorrect - but because there might have been the opportunity to present the thought process of some members from MRE - but the simplified version of her 'crime' isn't really giving me any information.

It's actually not much more complicated than that. Sometimes issues really are one-sided.

Here's what I got from a few minutes of googling: Gotell was one of the people who worked on the "don't be that guy" anti-rape campaign. This men's rights group was upset about the campaign, claiming that it painted all men as rapists, and started their own campaign, basically copying the posters and changing the messages to be about women lying about sexual assault. Gotell took vocal exception to this, calling it essentially rape apologism, and the men's rights group escalated with these anti-Gotell posters.

Or if you like, here it is in their own words:

Some months ago, MR-E made international headlines with it’s “Don’t be that Girl” parody poster which was aimed at starting a dialogue about the prevalence of false accusations of rape and sexual assault. The poster was a play on the misandric “Don’t be that Guy” poster which insinuated that rape was something any average guy could (and likely would) commit, if they were not constantly reminded that rape was not acceptable behavior. The reality is, rape is a crime committed by an extreme minority of psychologically unstable men and women on men and women and children.

Anyways, it’s apparent this parody poster was fantastically successful, as evidenced by the flood of supportive emails and donations our website received from people literally all over the world. Despite the media coverage which, for the most part, was disappointingly slanted in favor of the dogmatic feminist perceptions of these issues as well as the MRM (mens rights movement) in general, we were delighted to see comment sections overflowing with ordinary people who shared our perspective and engaging in open dialogue with people about these issues. But some people did not appreciate this kind of open discussion.

Lise Gotell (one of the small minds behind the original Don’t Be that Guy poster) & mayoral candidate Don Iveson publicly lied about MR-E’s positions on this topic, referring to us as “rape apologists” and referring to our parody poster campaign as “cowardly”. So we of MR-E partnered with our pals over at A Voice For Men (avoiceformen.com) and together we hosted a live radio show on blogtalkradio the very next evening. We invited both Gotell and Iveson (and any feminists interested) to appear on the show and debate live with us. Both Gotell and Iveson declined the invitation and ZERO feminists called in to field a defense for their perspectives on rape. From where we’re sitting, it’s clear who the true cowards are. The reason they refuse to debate these topics, is because they don’t have to. They know their opinions and comments are morally and intellectually indefensible. In a debate with us, we’ll kick their asses and they know it. Worse than that, their authority on these issues will be drawn into question. There is nowhere for them to go from here, but down. By engaging us in public discussion, they will only hasten their metaphorical decent into the cellar of society, and they know it. So it serves them better to censor, silence, or ignore us and hope we all just…go away.

Except, we’re not fucking going away.

LISE GOTELL, you have a right to hold any beliefs you wish. You also have a right to shut out and ignore any facts or opinions you deem to be a threat to your preferred world view. But if you insist on lying about men, and blaming masculinity or some fictional “patriarchy” for abhorrent crimes like sexual assault or rape, then those who foolishly employ you to educate young people should know that you’re a BIGOT by definition. Those who study under you have a right to know you’re an anti-intillectual as well. MR-E has received violent threats from feminists as a result of our activism. You can rest assured that retributive violence is not how MR-E or the greater MRM conducts itself. Unlike feminism, ours is a movement of intellectual honesty and non-violence. We do not wish any physical harm to come to anybody in any way, but we will use the light of public scrutiny to expose your willful ignorance and make you own your beliefs publicly. The catch is, this strategy requires a sane culture that actually cares when such morally bankrupt and bigoted individuals like you occupy positions in education and in politics. We may be too far gone, but the only way to find out is to get out there and show good, decent people what is being said and done in their taxpayer funded universities, their family courts, and in their governments.

That’s Fucking Your Shit Up.

Whatever their claims, it's hard not to see this as a harassment campaign.

Also, this from the same guy who wrote the above:

"We want feminism to fall into the same disrepute as Nazism or KKK, that sort of thing,” Raz, a member of the group, told Metro News.

 

[Lord Error]

I don't know that there needs to be a separate men's movement so much as feminism needs more participation from men whose participation is directed towards the issues affecting men and boys.

Feminism maybe should now be renamed to something like Equalism, to distance the movement from the extremists like Solanas, to better describe what it's about, and to avoid sounding so gender-speciffic in the first place, which is the thing that probably repulses men uneducated about its purpose.

 

[timetokill]

Feminism maybe should now be renamed to something like Equalism, to distance the movement from the extremists like Solanas, to better describe what it's about, and to avoid sounding so gender-speciffic in the first place, which is the thing that probably repulses men uneducated about its purpose.

I used to think the same thing, and even posted that feminism could use a rebranding to this effect.

However, having thought on it more, I think that we just need a solid men's movement that isn't an anti-women's movement. I think the power that can come from these movements is about these unique perspectives. Feminists will be the first to tell you that men shouldn't be the ones saying what's best for women, so I don't see why the reverse would be true either.

Ultimately I don't think feminism can accomplish both goals, even if it's rebranded as "equalism" or something more inclusive like that. And honestly, it doesn't need to.

 

[Kinitari]

It's actually not much more complicated than that. Sometimes issues really are one-sided.

Here's what I got from a few minutes of googling: Gotell was one of the people who worked on the "don't be that guy" anti-rape campaign. This men's rights group was upset about the campaign, claiming that it painted all men as rapists, and started their own campaign, basically copying the posters and changing the messages to be about women lying about sexual assault. Gotell took vocal exception to this, calling it essentially rape apologism, and the men's rights group escalated with these anti-Gotell posters.

Or if you like, here it is in their own words:


Whatever their claims, it's hard not to see this as a harassment campaign.

Also, this from the same guy who wrote the above:

Thanks for doing the digging for me! I was interested and considered digging, but I appreciate the additional information.

Now that I have it - while it in no way has me agreeing with the Edmonton group, it at least gives me a better idea of what is happening. They think that her branding their 'twin' version of the anti-rape campaign campaign as rape-apologism was unjust. They responded with counter posters calling her a bigot.

It's not really much better than what was presented in the article (mostly because their campaign was horrible, and deserved at least some form of criticism) - and really their anti-feminist views in general are ridiculous - her crime wasn't being in the campaign. Her 'crime' was her criticism of their own campaign. I think it's an important distinction because it doesn't paint this group as two dimensionally - and it implies that it's not being in the campaign that would warrant this groups personal disapproval, but being critical of their opinions that do. Knowing this I think their would be an opportunity with dialogue with the group at least by trying to convince them that if their goal really is dialogue, that they need to be able to take criticism without lashing out personally - that it's probably why they never get feminist on their interesting podcasts. It probably wouldn't convince them or do anything... but I just much prefer approaching these things with an attempt at dialogue, rather than just write it off as a lost cause.

I mean fuck, I've been to stormfront to try and talk to racist people, only because I want to try and figure out what makes them tick, and to really try and plant some seeds. I really much prefer dialogue, only because it makes me feel at least I did my due diligence.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Feminism maybe should now be renamed to something like Equalism, to distance the movement from the extremists like Solanas, to better describe what it's about, and to avoid sounding so gender-speciffic in the first place, which is the thing that probably repulses men uneducated about its purpose.

This idea goes against what feminism is, though. Doing that comes down to softening their message and changing to be more palatable to men, which is the exact opposite of what should be happening.

 

[Dead Man]

Oh I agree and that's awesome that Australia is doin' that but I'm just talking semantics because rights to me has always implied something legal or illegal. It's already legal for men to get help and for the help to reach out to men, it's just that push is what is needed. But no rights have to change in the process I don't think.

Yeah, good point. It's not rights in the legal sense, but it is about educating men that they have the right to seek help without being mocked or feeling less manly.

This idea goes against what feminism is, though. Doing that comes down to softening their message and changing to be more palatable to men, which is the exact opposite of what should be happening.

If you want men involved, the name needs to change, or there needs to be a new movement. It isn't softening their message, and making it more palatable to men when the claims of many feminists on this board are that it seeks to address gender inequality for all is hardly betraying the cause.

If you don't want men involved, then I can see the resistance.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

If you want men involved, the name needs to change, or there needs to be a new movement. It isn't softening their message, and making it more palatable to men when the claims of many feminists on this board are that it seeks to address gender inequality for all is hardly betraying the cause.

If you don't want men involved, then I can see the resistance.

Men can choose to get involved in what they feel is right. There is no good reason to change for the sake of people who are too stubborn or hateful to give a shit about women's issues right now just because of a name.

 

[Visceir]

Is there as reason I'm missing why anti-MRA commentators seem to group together men's rights with PUAs as if they're one in the same thing?

I'd like to hear an answer for this too. Why were PUAs brought up in this article?

It's also rather amusing how often feminism topics pop up on gaf and how I never hear anything about feminism or MRAs in real world. Could have something to do with me living in europe though.

 

[Dead Man]

Men can choose to get involved in what they feel is right. There is no good reason to change for the sake of people who are too stubborn or hateful to give a shit about women's issues right now just because of a name.

Right. Attitudes like yours are so welcoming to those who don't know where to start. They see the name feminism, the name mens rights, and attitudes like yours. Where do you think they will go? Too stubborn or hateful to give a shit because of a name? You have missed the point entirely. I am talking about not just getting men involved in womens issues, but gender inequality in general and getting attention away from the hateful MRA groups. I'm pretty sure I have seen you post on here that feminism is useful for addressing male gender inequality as well, but then you go and post rubbish like this. Not real helpful.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Right. Attitudes like yours are so welcoming to those who don't know where to start.

It's a core ideology of the movement. A person trying to change it just so they can feel coddled by a space that they don't even understand is the one with the problem, not feminism.

I'm pretty sure I have seen you post on here that feminism is useful for addressing male gender inequality as well, but then you go and post rubbish like this. Not real helpful.

I'm not understanding why the name is such a sticking point for you.

 

[Mumei]

The whole "should feminism change its name" argument is a rabbit hole we probably don't need to go down in this thread. I think it's tangential at best to the topic.

 

[Dead Man]

The whole "should feminism change its name" argument is a rabbit hole we probably don't need to go down in this thread. I think it's tangential at best to the topic.

I think it is one way to help short circuit the appeal of MRA's, but if it is not for this thread, that's cool. Can we discuss the concept of a larger gender equality movement? Not being snide, I just don't want to get the thread locked.

It will always be difficult to get men involved in feminism as a way of addressing mens gender equality issues. If feminisms goal is to address male gender inequality as well (which it absolutely does not need to be, but I have been told often that it is), it will be important to get men involved and there will need to be awareness and essentially marketing of the idea if it is to eventuate.

Expecting men who are looking to address male inequality but don't have much knowledge on the subject to take it or leave it is not a very helpful attitude. They will go straight to MRA's, and will get a great education on how to be a hateful wanker.

Edit: Gah, hit post instead of preview.

To get men involved in general gender equality issues rather than strictly womens issues while avoiding the trap of mainstream MRA's will I think require a separate movement if feminism is to be narrowly constrained. What that should be called I don't know, but it would need to be supported by men and women, and be explicitly pro positions rather than attacking either gender when there is a problem. So if there is a problem with custody, the groups position should be described in terms of what is the best solution, not who is to blame or that women are taking advantage, or that men are bad fathers. If it devolves to a blame game then people will just go back to their narrow bullshit groups.

 

[Rayis]

This is exactly why I will never in a million years support the MRA movement despite being male myself, they're not interested in actually helping other men, they're only interested in shitting on feminism and women as a whole, they would never care about someone like me who doesn't fit their ideal of what a man should be, unlike feminism which does address my grievances thoroughly. I'd like to add that even rad fems are not as bad as MRA's, I've read rad fem blogs, (mostly after getting pissed from reading MRA sites) and most rad fems advocate separation from men, while MRA's advocate harm and rape against women, they're not the same, it's disingenuous to even suggest so.

 

[AlexMogil]

Good catch! I'd like to see some more deep studies on the statistics here.

Same here. I bring an incredible amount of bias into these studies and I loathe my preconceived perceptions. I'd also like to see United States state to state figures and time periods.

 

[FUBAR McDangles]

I've mentioned my current part-time job in the past, but I work at a childcare/afterschool program for school age kids and there is certainly a stigma against me working with children as a male. I'll preface this by saying that I am the only male working there aside from the owner of the business.

Up until probably last month or so(my 5th month working there), I was unable to stay alone in a room with children. Every other employee is able to do this after roughly a month or two. They never outright told me I could not do this, but my supervisor always sent another employee with me.

Ever play the game silent ball? Typically the lights in a room are shut off to add to the atmosphere/reinforce the idea that you are supposed to be quiet. No room in the building ever gets 100% dark. There are tons of windows and ambient light sources. Whenever another employee(again, all females) plays the game they shut off the lights and sit in with the children and play the game. I can't do that. I've done it once and my supervisor chastised me afterward and told me that it "sends the wrong message to parents." and would "make everything a bad situation if a parent walked in." Practically being called a potential pedophile just because I want to do what literally every other employee does when playing a certain game?

While that pretty much blows, it doesn't affect me much. I could definitely see how another guy could get off-put being put in that situation for sure. I mean, there is already a stigma against men working with children(that men apparently are unable to do it, as evidenced by the looks I get from parents their first week there), and if a guy got past that but then started getting accused of practically being a pedophile...not a good situation to be in.

That said, I definitely believe that there are certain things that do affect the rights of men. The fact that children often go with mothers when divorce cases happen is certainly alarming. Even if the father can prove that they are a better parent or have better resources to care for their child(ren), as far as I know, it is hard for them to actually get custody. And the fact that men have to pay ex-wives after divorces is disgusting, to say the least. I guess I can understand split-down-the-middle 50/50 of money and owned items, but alimony as a concept is just terrible from what I know about it.

Just my $.02

 

[Karkador]

What can be done about fighting social stigmas against men? It's not enough to just complain about them, it seems like part of it has to be taking the risk to prove people wrong by being a positive example.

 

[Fotheringay]

What can be done about fighting social stigmas against men? It's not enough to just complain about them, it seems like part of it has to be taking the risk to prove people wrong by being a positive example.

Simply not conforming to negative stereotypes doesn't really achieve much. Look at all the hatred towards muslims (or sikhs who were targeted because idiots thought they were muslim) after 9/11. Doubt they were blowing themselves up and calling for jihad against America. You have to be proactive in a situation where you feel you're being unfairly stereotyped or targeted and want to change the attitudes towards you.

 

[Platy]

They gatter at reddit and a few other sites, right ?
Probably not a big number of sites....

Probably it is possible to have an idea of how many of then are ....

I REALLY can't believe there are THAT much people that believe in stuffs like this

 

[entremet]

What can be done about fighting social stigmas against men? It's not enough to just complain about them, it seems like part of it has to be taking the risk to prove people wrong by being a positive example.

Timetokill provided some good points in the previous page.

Some of those points require fleshing out and activism than just being a good example.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

This is a good attitude to have. I think some MRAs get into their mindset because they feel they are valued by others based on things they feel they can't control well, but rather than observing how we've all gotten to that point and how it's all connected, they choose to let themselves become bitter over it in a selfish sort of way.

Good catch! I'd like to see some more deep studies on the statistics here.

From looking at the comment section on that A Voice for Men site, it seems as though most MRAs simply feel as though feminism is an attack on their masculinity, which they seem to value quite deeply. I'll admit I've often gotten the sense, as I said earlier in this thread, that feminism has a none-too-positive association with masculinity in the classical sense, seeing it as regressive, oppressive, and harmful. However, I would think a little maturity would allow one to simply slough off such things and simply live one's life, but people will use anything as an adhesive to attach themselves to groups. The whole "divorced guy who now hates women" stereotype of MRAs seems to come from the basic truth that one would have to be pretty lonely and desperate to need such hate and nuttery to feel some kind of belonging.

This begs the question though: are men inherently less likely to be sociable or is their behavior a product of generations of gender-based conditioning? The stoic, strong manly-man who keeps his feelings to himself is still a commonly pursued ideal that is pushed on children in the Western world.

You even see such ideals pushed in common phrasing (IE, "Be a big boy." as a response to a boy's crying, "Take it like a man." in response to a man being upset, etc.)

It's both. There's obviously nothing hardwired to the Y chromosome to make men less social, but displays of strength, virility, and control - including composure in the face of high-stress situations - are a pretty basic part of much male Great Ape psychology, from which human intellect stems. That doesn't mean men aren't capable of rising above such things, but ten minutes as or around little boys at recess should demonstrate that the divergence, even if purely cultural, stems from something real. Of course, it can go the other way, too - Old English society was basically ALL about male-male friendships and bonds, to the point that women were seen basically as sexually necessary nuisances. (But even then, male-male friendship was more about shared experience in battle, the giving of gifts, etc. - external things - than the more internal, erratic, and complex relationships that women seem to have with one another.)

 

[distantmantra]

It will always be difficult to get men involved in feminism as a way of addressing mens gender equality issues.

That is one of the goals of feminism.

If feminisms goal is to address male gender inequality as well (which it absolutely does not need to be, but I have been told often that it is), it will be important to get men involved and there will need to be awareness and essentially marketing of the idea if it is to eventuate.

Men are involved and have been for decades now. I don't understand where this line of thinking comes from that men aren't feminists.

 

[Fantasmo]

Id be dead right now if it wasn't for MRA's. When I was at my lowest point, they listened to me with open ears and never once turned me against women. In stark contrast, everyone else told me to man up to the point where I almost lost the will to live. Who told me to man up? Men women coworkers bosses friends family therapists. Everyone. And none of them were willing to listen or help in any meaningful way. Men who need the most help are usually the most invisible to everyone. Just because some men are in the highest positions of power does not even slightly begin to approach the amount of men who have absolutely no power and no voice. Society shuns them as if they don't exist, and we're socialized to not take care of ourselves so we don't have that level of support. That's the real and ugly side.

Some people on this forum for awhile were especially pushy about it, spouting misogyny at everything, though no such bone in my body exists. The desire to paint males as evil creatures is pretty evil in and of itself.

MRA's were the only ones to not only get it, but ask the right questions to get me back on track, and not pointing fingers at anyone specific.

Not all of us have the luxury of the same status quo so the next time you see the average guy say hello. Bet you'll make his day.

 

[Dead Man]

That is one of the goals of feminism.



Men are involved and have been for decades now. I don't understand where this line of thinking comes from that men aren't feminists.

Yes, because that's what I said, isn't it? Or, maybe I said that the wider male community needs to be active in this and that to do so one hurdle to be overcome is the lack of wider recognition that feminism is concerned with mens issues at all. I never said there were no men who were feminists. I also think you may have missed the distinction between getting men into feminism, and getting men into gender equality that doesn't involve falling in with a hateful MRA in the process.

Without trying to break Mumei's rule, names of things impact how people see them.

I'll leave it there, but if something I have written isn't clear, ask for clarification instead of driving off the assumption cliff.

 

[Uncledick]

They gatter at reddit and a few other sites, right ?
Probably not a big number of sites....

Probably it is possible to have an idea of how many of then are ....

I REALLY can't believe there are THAT much people that believe in stuffs like this

You'd be surprise bud. It has been gaining a lot of traction recently. I can't really see it go away anytime soon, until some of these issues are address. That would at least take away some of the legitimate grievances and with those solved I could see most of the moderate/mild supporters dropping out of the "manosphere" (their internet world)

 

[Dead Man]

Id be dead right now if it wasn't for MRA's. When I was at my lowest point, they listened to me with open ears and never once turned me against women. In stark contrast, everyone else told me to man up to the point where I almost lost the will to live. Who told me to man up? Men women coworkers bosses friends family therapists. Everyone. And none of them were willing to listen or help in any meaningful way. Men who need the most help are usually the most invisible to everyone. Just because some men are in the highest positions of power does not even slightly begin to approach the amount of men who have absolutely no power and no voice. Society shuns them as if they don't exist, and we're socialized to not take care of ourselves so we don't have that level of support. That's the real and ugly side.

Some people on this forum for awhile were especially pushy about it, spouting misogyny at everything, though no such bone in my body exists. The desire to paint males as evil creatures is pretty evil in and of itself.

MRA's were the only ones to not only get it, but ask the right questions to get me back on track, and not pointing fingers at anyone specific.

Not all of us have the luxury of the same status quo so the next time you see the average guy say hello. Bet you'll make his day.

And that is what a MRA should be about, but way too many of them are not. It is very rare for an established MRA to not have a ridiculous level of misogyny attached to it. I think some of the ones that focus on mens health find it easier to avoid that sort of stuff, but the parenting rights focussed groups are a mine field of hate. Glad you got help and I hope you are doing better now.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Men enjoy a ton of advantages already. We don't need a bloody rights movement. Right movements should be reserved for minority groups. PEACE.

 

[Karkador]

Simply not conforming to negative stereotypes doesn't really achieve much. Look at all the hatred towards muslims (or sikhs who were targeted because idiots thought they were muslim) after 9/11. Doubt they were blowing themselves up and calling for jihad against America. You have to be proactive in a situation where you feel you're being unfairly stereotyped or targeted and want to change the attitudes towards you.

Well what I meant to say was that some of the ways men may have to be proactive in challenging these stereotypes is to do what may be seen as socially uncomfortable or perhaps inviting trouble. The question stands, though- what (and how) can men do differently from the MRA movement we've been beating to a pulp in this thread to get the change they need?

 

[Uncledick]

Id be dead right now if it wasn't for MRA's. When I was at my lowest point, they listened to me with open ears and never once turned me against women. In stark contrast, everyone else told me to man up to the point where I almost lost the will to live. Who told me to man up? Men women coworkers bosses friends family therapists. Everyone. And none of them were willing to listen or help in any meaningful way. Men who need the most help are usually the most invisible to everyone. Just because some men are in the highest positions of power does not even slightly begin to approach the amount of men who have absolutely no power and no voice. Society shuns them as if they don't exist, and we're socialized to not take care of ourselves so we don't have that level of support. That's the real and ugly side.

Some people on this forum for awhile were especially pushy about it, spouting misogyny at everything, though no such bone in my body exists. The desire to paint males as evil creatures is pretty evil in and of itself.

MRA's were the only ones to not only get it, but ask the right questions to get me back on track, and not pointing fingers at anyone specific.

Not all of us have the luxury of the same status quo so the next time you see the average guy say hello. Bet you'll make his day.

They helped me too after my failed engagement, my life was in shambles. I got some really good advice and support. I stuck around for awhile and got turned off by some of extreme viewpoints/rantings/ideas. There are a lot of good people around the web that I guess are apart of the MRA, but like everything else, dicks and assholes are present as well.

 

[Dead Man]

Men enjoy a ton of advantages already. We don't need a bloody rights movement. Right movements should be reserved for minority groups. PEACE.

So men have no issues that are unique to the male gender, socially related, health related, or otherwise? Is that your position? Rights movements should be reserved for any group facing differential outcomes or resources based on membership in that group.

 

[Aquamarine]

Men enjoy a ton of advantages already. We don't need a bloody rights movement. Right movements should be reserved for minority groups. PEACE.

While they certainly do, there are a number of legitimate issues that are just plain unfair to men.

The list of grievances for MRAs is long. It includes the elevated rate of suicide for men, educational discrimination against boys, economic and workplace conditions for men, violence against men, false rape reporting, fathers’ rights in custody battles, rates of male imprisonment and prison conditions, and the horrors of war. Many of these issues deserve a thoughtful response and the force of an organized movement for address them. It’s too bad that’s not what men’s rights activists are offering.

These are real issues that continue to persist. While I agree that Men's Rights movements tend to blow everything way out of line (+ attract unsavory characters), there needs to be more progress on solving them.

 

[Fantasmo]

And that is what a MRA should be about, but way too many of them are not. It is very rare for an established MRA to not have a ridiculous level of misogyny attached to it. I think some of the ones that focus on mens health find it easier to avoid that sort of stuff, but the parenting rights focussed groups are a mine field of hate. Glad you got help and I hope you are doing better now.

Hatred exists because of terrible experiences, feminist and masculist (or whatever you want to call it) alike. People pick sides because of these sort of things all the time.

I have a lot to work through, but the worst is behind me. Thank you.

They helped me too after my failed engagement, my life was in shambles. I got some really good advice and support. I stuck around for awhile and got turned off by some of extreme viewpoints/rantings/ideas. There are a lot of good people around the web that I guess are apart of the MRA, but like everything else, dicks and assholes are present as well.

I feel the same way about some feminists. But I don't view them as feminists. I view them as extremists. The same generosity should be given to the good MRA's. One thing I've learned is that with some people the conversation is just best not to engage. And some people stick around and shout because they have no identity afterwards if they don't keep shouting. Whatever. I no longer align myself with it because I don't need it anymore, but the perspective and help was far beyond anything I've ever gotten anywhere else at the time I needed it.

 

[Uncledick]

Men who need the most help are usually the most invisible to everyone. Just because some men are in the highest positions of power does not even slightly begin to approach the amount of men who have absolutely no power and no voice. Society shuns them as if they don't exist, and we're socialized to not take care of ourselves so we don't have that level of support. That's the real and ugly side.

.

I think you hit the nail on the head for my (former) situation perfectly. I really get annoyed when it's presumed by everyone (literally) that a guy will bascailly be okay after a failed relationship, marriage, job etc.. (suicide rate says GFYSelf). We aren't all Millionaires people! We don't have it easy because were men (especially in the environment I grew up, blue collar, lower classes). Lower class men are getting hammered economically and then if a major relationship/family problem or failure occurs it fuckin' cripples us. The only place that helps men in these situations is on the web.

 

[Platy]

I don't see how lower class men are getting MORE hammered than lower class females
It is more of a problem of lower class people =P

It will always be difficult to get men involved in feminism as a way of addressing mens gender equality issues.

I just want to say that "mens gender equality issues" is a beautifull sentence.... that makes absolutly no sense.

If it is gender equaility than it is both a mens and womens issue =P

 

[Pimpwerx]

So men have no issues that are unique to the male gender, socially related, health related, or otherwise? Is that your position? Rights movements should be reserved for any group facing differential outcomes or resources based on membership in that group.

I never felt I had any issues as a man. Being black? Hell yeah. All sorts of beef. Being male? Hell no. We have things pretty good as men IMO. PEACE.

 

[Adam Blue]

I've dealt with child custody law and domestic violence issues that are completely one-sided and unfair to me, because I'm a man. I was actually told, by court, that being a man gives me less rights.

There's really nothing I can do. Who wants to hear a man's sob story?

EDIT: And because I'm a white male I have no room to talk. That's not cool to hear. Kinda hypocritical, and gets us nowhere as culturally varied as our society is.

 

[Simplet]

I dislike that, as a male educator, I am more scrutinized by my peers, and that I am unable to work in a room with students without another (female) adult. But I attribute that more to the prevalence of perversion from certain members of society fucking up the situation rather than my "rights" as a "man".

Wow what a truly sad attitude to have.

"I dislike that, as a black person, I'm considered with suspicion and followed around every time I enter a convenience store. But I attribute that more to the statistics on prison population due to certain members of society fucking up the situation rather than my "rights" as a "black man"."

 

[Uncledick]

I don't see how lower class men are getting MORE hammered than lower class females
It is more of a problem of lower class people =P



I just want to say that "mens gender equality issues" is a beautifull sentence.... that makes absolutly no sense.

If it is gender equaility than it is both a mens and womens issue =P

So far that I can see within my community, men are having a harder time. It is still the prevalent view that men are the providers of the family (in my neck of the woods). Add to the mix the death of manufacturing, rise of low paid service jobs, and a combination of the grievances mentioned in this thread. I do believe lower class men are affected more, without the support groups that women at this economic level have. Though this could be a Canadian thing as well. There is quite a bit of support (government money) for women at the lower income levels, where as men... Jack Daniels I guess.

 

[Fantasmo]

I never felt I had any issues as a man. Being black? Hell yeah. All sorts of beef. Being male? Hell no. We have things pretty good as men IMO. PEACE.

Your worldview doesn't help those of us who weren't given certain status quos. You may find this odd or downright laughable or even anger inducing but I assure you its true. And I'm certain this is going to draw bad attention, and THAT'S THE PROBLEM. There are plenty of black men much better off than some white men, due to the fact that some men, lacking information, help or directions can feel lost or broken for a myriad of reasons, because it just happens to be the hand life dealt them. And society has a hard time giving a damn.

There are only so many times you can be called useless, worthless, p*ssy, f***ot, asshole, hater, lazy before it completely destroys your self worth. And no one cares.

Every word I say or in this case, type, has to be given careful thought to avoid being pegged incorrectly as misogynist/racist, or what have you, given your position and my response. Despite that, what I say is all true, and I am neither of those terrible things. But I don't get to vocalize this anywhere, because my situation is pretty unique, so I'm automatically screened out and left for dead, yet others, certain feminists, get to speak their mind however they want. In private, public, and even the media. Men doing the same? Not possible, because we're connected to the CEOs which I simply don't fucking understand, because most of us aren't even in the same solar system. "Man up."

I even called on friends and told them my plights. They were to scared to talk to me because of my depression. I even tried to make light of it and said I was past that. Suicidal female? Everyone jumps in. Suicidal male? Get him the hell out! Again, no support!

The difference between feminists and me is that I had to literally "go underground" to even get any help. All normal people rolled their eyes or shunned me. And that's HORRIBLE, because the reason I ended up here in the first place was because I was shunned constantly. I couldn't go to any "acceptable" place to get support. Luckily I never let extremists sway me.

I can go into detail but I am just a simple dude tryin to have a simple life so I'm not going to try to elaborate. I've edited my post multiple times for clarity so I don't get pegged incorrectly. I'm not a spokesman. I'm a person. But I can give you my word that some us didn't get the handout and that's why MRAs exist and I'm thankful they do. And I wish the extremists weren't a part of it. And I wish I didn't have to go to MRA's for the help I needed.

 

[Dead Man]

I don't see how lower class men are getting MORE hammered than lower class females
It is more of a problem of lower class people =P



I just want to say that "mens gender equality issues" is a beautifull sentence.... that makes absolutly no sense.

If it is gender equaility than it is both a mens and womens issue =P

See, this comparison stuff is where it always breaks down, he never said they were getting more hammered, just that they were hammered.

I know you are joking a bit about the sentence, but given the animosity towards any consideration of men having systemic problems it needs to be stated that men also have issues regarding gender inequality.

I never felt I had any issues as a man. Being black? Hell yeah. All sorts of beef. Being male? Hell no. We have things pretty good as men IMO. PEACE.

Woo! Pimpwerx has figured out the solution to everyones problem! Awesome bro, you are a manly man, congratulations. As for men who have had problems, that is their fault or something, right?

If you have nothing of value to contribute, don't.

Fake edit:

So far that I can see within my community, men are having a harder time. It is still the prevalent view that men are the providers of the family (in my neck of the woods). Add to the mix the death of manufacturing, rise of low paid service jobs, and a combination of the grievances mentioned in this thread. I do believe lower class men are affected more, without the support groups that women at this economic level have. Though this could be a Canadian thing as well. There is quite a bit of support (government money) for women at the lower income levels, where as men... Jack Daniels I guess.

Can we not talk about who has it worse? You are making my post above look silly now.

 

[xenist]

In short, I feel that the actual issues men have, mostly in the justice system, are also remnants of the old patriarchal social and cultural mores. When the system settles in its new balance these will also go away.

"Men's rights" are mostly dog whistles for misogynists.

 

[Uncledick]

Can we not talk about who has it worse? You are making my post above look silly now.

ya, at that level everyone is in an unfortunate position, I'll talk about the degrees of it another time, another thread.

 

[Dead Man]

In short, I feel that the actual issues men have, mostly in the justice system, are also remnants of the old patriarchal social and cultural mores. When the system settles in its new balance these will also go away.

"Men's rights" are mostly dog whistles for misogynists.

And yet you have a feminist saying this:

The list of grievances for MRAs is long. It includes the elevated rate of suicide for men, educational discrimination against boys, economic and workplace conditions for men, violence against men, false rape reporting, fathers’ rights in custody battles, rates of male imprisonment and prison conditions, and the horrors of war. Many of these issues deserve a thoughtful response and the force of an organized movement for address them. It’s too bad that’s not what men’s rights activists are offering.

Calling male suicide rates, or prison rape rates a dog whistle is a pretty weak response. Saying 'be patient, removing patriarchal remnants will fix those issues' is pretty weak too. It is not a binary situation, people can work towards multiple goals.

ya, at that level everyone is in an unfortunate position, I'll talk about the degrees of it another time, another thread.

All good.

 

[Simplet]

In short, I feel that the actual issues men have, mostly in the justice system, are also remnants of the old patriarchal social and cultural mores. When the system settles in its new balance these will also go away.

These opinions are always fascinating. It looks like magical thinking to me, you don't really know why or how but somehow fixing some other thing indirectly related at best (when I say at best I mean in the most contrived theoretical models possible, where a single factor like "patriarchy" is at the core of all societal problems) is going to fix all the issues men have.