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Playstation Now implications

jeff_rigby

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I was shocked when I read that Sony would be using PS3 hardware for PS Now. I assumed PC Hardware with titles recompiled to run on a PC. Modern PC hardware is power efficient and forward compatible. What could be the reason for using PS3 hardware? Sony likely has power efficient and cheaper PS3 hardware coming soon.

Mentioned in articles on Playstation Now are two observations I find compelling:

1) The PS3 is not as end of life as expected. China opening up to game consoles supports this.
2) It's highly unlikely that stock 45nm Cell and 40nm RSX as well as XDR memory and southbridge are in Playstation now servers. Running a AAA game on the known latest PS3 hardware exceeds 71 watts and 68 watts idle. 8 sets of of these in the server board mentioned in the Digital Foundry article would be 544 to 568 watts plus the energy spent removing the heat from a server room; this is highly unlikely from a power and multiple use standpoint.

So what is possibly in these server boards? 22nm Cell and 28nm RSX have been mentioned as coming for a PS3 refresh. But a 22nm Cell still can't be power gated as needed so it's all on or all off. Same for the RSX which by today's standards is horribly inefficient (power use would be from to 240 - 400 watts). So if using a 22nm Cell and 28nm RSX, it's not a HSA design and would need two separate banks of memory or would it? And here is where patent searches might help us understand what's possible.

MPA Cell and Stacked memory with a two speed interface.

Edit: TSVs are necessary to support the number of IO pins with Wide IO stacked memory. TSVs start with 20nm at Global foundries. Further, the smaller microbump connections between chip and 2.5D interposer can't handle large temperature cycles so this limits the TDP.

Edit two: 3DS memory is stacked DRAM from HBM with a different memory controller on the bottom layer. With a custom memory controller it should be able to emulate both GDDR3 and XDR which is the thrust of the patent.

Edit on Edit:

http://nwlogic.com/products/docs/HBM...oller_Core.pdf
The core is delivered fully integrated and verified with the target DDR PHY.

Controller/PHY die from Northwest. Put HBM into it, get whatever type of DDR interface you require out of it.

Stacked HBM memory can have a custom memory controller on the bottom that could be used with a PS3 to emulate XDR (or Cell Memory controller updated to GDDR5) or GDDR3 or both at the same time following this Sony patent..

Basically, you can get DDR3, DDR4, GDDR5, or just about any sort of DDR based memory you want, from a single chip sized low power stack.
First a MPA Cell (Multi Processor Architecture) which consists of two separate sub cell designs (1PPU and 3 or 4 SPUs) with L2 cache that work similar to the AMD CPU packages with each attached to a Crossbar in a APU. The two CPU packages can be powered individually and the PPU mentioned in the patent is a newer design with a higher Instruction per Clock and lower latency closer to a SPU. This needs a narrow and FAST memory interface.

Second a memory patent that could be used with a 22nm Cell and 28nm RSX as well as a more power efficient 22nm MPA Cell and AMD GPU and/or ARM encoder and GPU.

Power gating and scaling would drop power to about (guess for a board that has 8 PS3 systems) min 40 watts and max 250 watts.

The problem with a more modern design that uses less power and has the features mentioned below is that game compatibility will be difficult. Whatever is in the Playstation Now server boards is likely going to be in PS3 refreshes which are likely this year. It will include h.264 hardware encode and decode. It likely will require the game to run with a 60 Hz frame rate to reduce latency. Low resolution PS3 games upscaled to 720P would probably be streamed at the lower resolution and upscaled at the client rather than in the server. Low resolution PS3 games are an advantage with the current state of the internet.

There is a MSftNerd rumor on a refreshed Xbox 360 to release in 2014 that I find supported by features that will be common starting 2014. I expect a refreshed PS3 to have the same features; Diskless and remote Gaikai like play.

1) Home Gateways, Xbox1 and Windows 8.1 platforms will be supporting Network drive access so local drives in game consoles are not required. Most coming Home Gateways offered by Cable companies (required by the FCC to support DLNA CVP2) will support user content on a user attached drive or network drive as well as DVR saving of TV media.

2) To support Video chat, Twitch, RVU in the CEA-2014 paper since depreciated to use HTML5 for UIs in CEA2014B (DLNA CVP2) but still part of the standard as Games and scrolling screens are mentioned as supported (remote view/play), game consoles will have a h.264 hardware encoder and decoder. This is likely ARM IP and would require a ARM buss and ARM trustzone which is also required for a secure Playready (trusted boot and secure memory). The ARM IP generally will use a wide slower interface with 4 memory controllers like seen in the XB1.

The above also supports remote play like Gaikai over the home network as mentioned in the rumor below.

http://www.vgleaks.com/microsoft-xbox-roadmap-2013/ said:
The “Xbox Mini” is not a 360 add-on, it is a stand alone product that contains Xbox 360 functions for gaming, and alone it is meant to compete with Apple TV. Since it is likely it will not have a disc drive, it is being designed with “always online” in mind, and with internet being required for Live functions. Xbox 360 Games can be played on it by purchasing Games on Demand on Xbox Live (for new purchases) or if already purchased, simply download it. This also applies to music and movies. To further clarify, the Durango will also have these (TV) functions, just with next-genration gaming hardware instead of Xbox 360 at a higher price.

When used with Durango, it offers connectivity with it for backwards compatibility with both disc based and On Demand games, and it’s no more different than what Sony will be doing with Gaikai for playing PS3 games on PS4, only with Xbox it will be done locally and not through the cloud.

Really good Gaikai article from 7/2013. It uses java and the browser stack. Some of the goals for Gaikai in this article are touted for the PS4 and XB1. Gaikai as a sales demo then when the game is purchased it still plays as a h.264 video but starts downloading the game and seamlessly transfers from h.264 video to traditional local game play before the game is fully downloaded. The PS4 goal is to download a game and start gameplay before the game is fully downloaded.

The Samsung and LG Smart TVs mentioned in the article have bluetooth 4.0 support and browsers.
Cable Labs Reference Implementation for Linux and Windows will align with DLNA CVP2 and includes:
Java
GLib – utility library.
Gstreamer / HDHomerun / VLC– tuner control.
GStreamer – media decoding and presentation.
wxWidgets – user interface.
Net-SNMP – Master Agent.
 

lynux3

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I wouldn't mind a refreshed mini-PS3. I've already decided I will give Gaikai a try so why not.
 

Sickboy007

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So, something like a PS3-TV?

 

Vooduu

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So whatever architecture is going to be emulating PS1,2,3 games in the PS Now servers are going to be headed to a mini ps3 slated for 2014?

Did I get that right? (No sarcasm)
 

Dibbz

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I can't see them putting a out a significantly different PS3 as that would really muddy the waters but an updated PS3 at a lower price point with improvements borrowed from what they are using for the PS Now servers could be right.
 

jeff_rigby

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I wouldn't mind a refreshed mini-PS3. I've already decided I will give Gaikai a try so why not.
It's speculation for a PS3 and the PS3 would be much harder to write emulation software for than the Xbox 360 refresh.

I was wrong and expected a redesign using more modern hardware at the last refresh because Power mode regulations would be mandated first by the EU for Standby and then by California in 2015. Given two years between refreshes the PS3 was due and the next refresh after that would be after 2015. Results of Invitation to Participate: Game Consoles May 2013

Current Voluntary EPA Max power

Game Play No max
Standby 0.5 W (everyone passes this) *Mandated by the EU
Networked Standby 8-12 watts (Only the XB1 has a problem here) Mandated by the EU
Active Navigation Menu 40.0 W (WiiU draws 37 watts here and everyone else much more) Voluntary at this time
Active Streaming Media 50.0 W Voluntary at this time

Proposed California Max power mandate 2015 Tier1

Game Play 75 (Mentioned is something like a variable here tied to memory bandwidth.)
Media 58
Navigation 40
Standby 0.5
Networked Standby 6

Proposed California 2018 mandate Tier 2

Game Play 46 (Mentioned is something like a variable here tied to memory bandwidth.)
Media 35
Navigation 30
Standby 0.5
Networked Standby 3

PS3, Xbox 360, PS4 and XB1 do not meet any of these Proposed California Mandates and none (Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony) have responded to these proposals. The way I understands it works; a lowball proposal is made and then the console makers explain why they are not reasonable and propose higher standards. For the EPA Voluntary standards the EPA and others for media streaming used as examples Apple and Google TV streaming (1-7 watts) as well as Blu-ray players (21 watts). For navigation they used the Wii U. Microsoft and Sony both have two GPU patents (small and large) to reduce navigation power and one responded that they would have to include something like Apple TV's SoC to reduce media power.

You might want to read this thread as it points out why Game consoles are constantly associated with owning the living room. St Microelectronics expects 36 billion Gateways or Hubs to be connected to the internet by 2020. Also mentioned in a Cisco PDF and in the St Microelectonics PDF is the use for the 4K codec HEVC which is also expected to be supported by game consoles.

Example of another California law and a reason most TVs are now LED backlit.

The state of California has created new energy efficiency standards applying to any TV sets sold after January of 2011. The initial regs state a maximum of 1 watt of consumption when "off" and, when on, a maximum of .2 watts per inch of screen area plus an arbitrary 32 watts. Two years later, in 2013, things get even tougher, that formula dropping to .12 per inch with a 25 watt base modifier. There are plenty of TVs that already meet the 2013 criteria, most of them smallish LCDs, so it's not an impossible dream. Any set greater than 58-inches is exempt.
 
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I would love for a special, high-priced edition of the PS4 with that PS3 mini inside. Full PS3 BC with additional cost. Hell it would be worth it (higher price) just for having one box vs two boxes under the TV.

It will never happen, though, correct? ;_;
 

antibolo

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The PS3 is not as end of life as expected.

Only an idiot would have expected the PS3 to be end of life any time soon. Sony has always supported their consoles many years after their successor is released. The famous "10 year plan" quote for the PS3 is still on par with the current course.
 

Dibbz

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I would love for a special, high-priced edition of the PS4 with that PS3 mini inside. Full PS3 BC with additional cost. Hell it would be worth it (higher price) just for having one box vs two boxes under the TV.

It will never happen, though, correct? ;_;

PS Now will be able to do that without the need for new hardware.
 

jeff_rigby

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I would love for a special, high-priced edition of the PS4 with that PS3 mini inside. Full PS3 BC with additional cost. Hell it would be worth it (higher price) just for having one box vs two boxes under the TV.

It will never happen, though, correct? ;_;
No but a game console on your home network that can Gaikai like play games on your other platforms like Playstation Now is highly likely for the Xbox 360 (already in rumors) and possible for a PS3 refresh (no rumors but Playstation Now has PS3 hardware doing just that).
 

jeff_rigby

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One other big issue with a 22nm Cell shrink is that the Flex IO on one side of the chip and XDR memory interface on the other can't fit on a 22nm Cell chip. This may be why Sony announced early 2011 they were skipping the 32nm node and the last PS3 board shrink didn't include a Cell shrink (it stayed at 45nm).

A 22nm Cell may require a transposer and connection to Stacked memory and the Flex IO may be replaced with a PCIe interface. This in turn would require significant change to the RSX. All these changes will impact compatibility. Once you start down this road you might as well use as many cost cutting measures as possible as well as update the hardware and OS. RSX updated or replaced by a AMD or ARM APU/SoC?

2.5D stacking was initially planned for the Yukon version of the XB1 to support BC by attaching a 22nm PPC cpu to a 28nm AMD APU but it was found to not be practical at that time and Yukon became Durango without BC. The PS4 according to several industry reports was supposed to have stacked memory 2.5D attached to the AMD APU but that didn't happen either. According to another paper, Game consoles were supposed to use stacked memory 2013-2014. And in another Amkor was showing 2.5D stacking in product presentations Oct 2011 for 2013 and the same month another Amkor product presentation had them delayed to middle of 2014.

Global foundries and Amkor just announced a couple of months ago that they have tools to support practical 2.5D assembly. Back to the Xbox 361 refresh rumor from MSFTnerd and it's timing =>2014 and Playstation Now timing =>2014

Will this be sold as a PS3 or a PS3.5? I'll throw this wild speculation into this thread too; it may be possible for a PS3.5 redesign to emulate a Xbox 360 which would allow Playstation Now to also support Xbox 360 exclusives. From a hardware point of view this is obvious and supported by Yukon (Xbox 360 emulation with 2 PPC CPUs and more modern AMD hardware) but what business advantage do either Sony or Microsoft have in doing this....I can only support this with the microsoft-sony.com domain registration which was first posted 7/2011. It may apply to this or the recent rumors of Sony using a Microsoft OS in a line of Cell phones or something else.

http://whois.domaintools.com/microsoft-sony.com said:
Domain Name: microsoft-sony.com
Registry Domain ID:
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.corporatedomains.com
Registrar URL: www.cscprotectsbrands.com
Updated Date: 2013-07-11 01:12:49 -0400
Creation Date: 2011-07-14 13:56:30 -0400

Edit: If the 22nm PPC package is dead then why was it canceled? There is no other IBM Linkedin for a Xbox PPC processor at anything other than 32nm and we are now very close to 22/20nm FD-SOI production (28nm FD-SOI has been in production since the beginning of 2013). In an article about IBM, they are going FD-SOI for the 20nm node because PD-SOI does not have the efficiency gains to overcome the costs of production but FD-SOI does; 3Ghz is possible and from 50-500% reduction in leakage current at idle (lower clock and voltage).
 

Occam

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I wonder how profitable this can be, considering that Sony is going to need the hardware equivalent of one PS3 for each concurrent user.
 

enanogrande

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PS3 is still 40nm? And there's been rumors of such a big jump to 22nm?

Anyway, I'll always be down for a slimmer PS3. Even though I just bought a super slim for GTAV (Launch 60gb finally YLOD) I'd consider buying another one for future super slim failures if its less than $150.
 

jeff_rigby

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I wonder how profitable this can be, considering that Sony is going to need the hardware equivalent of one PS3 for each concurrent user.
Good late 2010 article on Gaikai.

That plus the FCC DLNA CVP2 mandate June 2014, California power mandates (2015) and the China market (Sony positioned it'self for the China market starting in 2011 by starting R&D and writing games in China for the China Market.) point to a MUCH cheaper, power efficient and DRM secure PS3.5.

There will be, according to ST Microelectronics, 36 billion Media gateways and Hubs by 2020 and Game consoles are the lead media Hub.
 

jeff_rigby

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Where's my overhauled PS3 OS jeff?
Still coming. The PS3 hardware and release OS was designed to support the 2007 CEA-2014 vision (OpenVG, XML Java and XHTML 4.01) while the industry moved to CEA-2014B which will use HTML5 and Java with the PS4 supporting now what I predicted for the PS3, a WebGL HTML5 browser desktop.

The PS3 updating to support DLNA CVP2 will wait till the standard is ratified...this is the reason the PS4 does not yet have DLNA support.

The key here is Sony plans for the PS3 always included supporting CEA-2014 then CEA-2014B starting 2009-2010. CEA-2014B is DLNA CVP2 and the accepted industry DRM standard is Playready with CVP2 requiring a subset of Playready for DTCP-IP and Playready for OTT IPTV which is also part of CVP2. Sony announced they would be using Playready on their platforms in 2011 when the industry chose Playready (Every Cable operator and TV Manufacturer).

I mentioned seeing in 2011 that Sony was using what amounted to Gnome Mobile and was first to post that PS Mobile was using Mono which is considered a Gnome VM because it requires Glib. The reference stack used by Comcast and just about everyone else in Media gateways is a Gnome Mobile Software stack using QT instead of GTK (As of Oct 2013 Cable Labs is changing to GTK as the supporters of QTwebkit (Samsung & Google) are forking from the GTK/Apple webkit by pulling support for backwards compatibility and moving to the V8 javascript engine). Edit: Google calls this BINK.

Sony's on and off statement that the PS3 would then may not support PS Mobile means that Mono may not be supported on the PS3 but it's already listed in the PS4. This points to issues that may make me wrong in at least part of what I said was coming to the PS3. At the present time, before running a IPTV application, the PS3 reboots to insure a large contiguous block of memory and a trusted or verifiable boot so that Playready can protect Netflix IPTV streaming for example. The PS3 OS is using a reboot in place of proper security and memory management. That to my mind could be a quick and dirty shortcut till the OS is rewritten to fully support Playready and DLNA CVP2 which for the application side of the PS3 is the endgame goal.

Edit: In 2009 I couldn't understand why Sony Blu-ray players and TVs were getting Javascript applications and the PS3 none. Many were speculating Google TV coming to the PS3 but it didn't happen. Some were speculating that the Cell couldn't or would poorly support VMs like Javascript or Mono because the PPC processor didn't have Out of Order support. Then Oct 2010 we got a firmware update that included a Javascript engine. The required disclosures for the Webkit javascript engine included references to GTK and Cairo.

androvsky and I actually took the time to understand what this could mean. HTML5 and webkit's support library appeared to have more potential than Google TV. Using keywords GTK webkit I found that Sony had sent a PS3 developer platform to Collabora in 2007 when Collabora ported Cairo with Gstreamer bindings to webkit. From there I had more keywords and found more work with webkit by Sony employees and sent a letter to the lead programmer and he responded....webkit was sorta confirmed/implied as coming to the PS3 in his letter.

Reading about Cairo, Gstreamer and webkit had me understanding that Intel, IBM, Sony and others were involved in developing the tools to support cross platform support for webkit. Articles were predicting HTML5 browser desktops and Gnome appeared to be on the fast track...click....GTK APIs were being used by Sony and GTKwebkit support is via the Gnome Mobile software stack with Gnome Mobile the minimum library to support HTML5 on mobile platforms. The RDK software stack in Comcast TV Gateway platforms is essentially Gnome Mobile.

I'd like to say I found and understood the tie-in with CEA-2014, the 2010 FCC mandate ( DLNA CVP2) early on but I didn't find it till mid 2012. With the FCC mandate I started looking at other FCC rules and I found ATSC 2.0 and ATSC 3.0. With those I now had the full picture and could understand the scope of whats coming in 2014.

What I don't understand is no one else is excited about this or is getting the full picture.... Read this thread, it's easier to follow because it's mostly hindsight.
 

jeff_rigby

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Roku TV puts a set-top box inside your television | The Verge

Partnering with TCL and Hisense, Roku will release the Roku TV later this year, which basically takes set-top box software and put it into smart television sets, with some added features to help you manage how you use your TV. According to Jim Funk, Roku\’s Senior Vice President of Product, the Roku TVs will have a similar UI to the Roku 3, with added controls that the company is hoping will be the easiest way for you to access everything in your TV, including gaming consoles, cable, on-demand movies, and special channels.
Access your game console from your TV is a local home version of Playstation Now. Any Smart TV or STB that supports DLNA CVP2 (Access everything DLNA on your home network) and has bluetooth 4.0 support can remote gameplay. Most of the Smart TVs will support bluetooth 4.0 for the same reason the PS4 supports it; the Controller has a touch screen and Microphone for speech recognition.

In a previous post I quoted a MSFTnerd post for a Xbox 360 refresh that supports remote Xbox 360 gameplay on the XB1 which also has bluetooth 4.0 support and h.264 encoder for DLNA CVP2 support.

Is it too wild to state now that remote gameplay server support is coming to all game consoles and all DLNA CVP2 platforms can be clients.
 

jeff_rigby

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Game consoles as Set Top Boxes for the coming in 2014 connected home because of the FCC mandate forcing Cable companies to support DLNA CVP2 by June 2014 has the following impact; this is world wide driven by the Consumer Electronics industry:

HTML5 will reach candidate status in 2014 instead of 2022 and the W3C will release updated versions (HTML5.1 in 2016) incrementally.
WebGL is an accepted Standard with Microsoft supporting it with IE 11
DOCSIS 3.1 was ratified October 2013 and hybrid DOCSIS 3.0-3.1 Cable modems will be released in 2015.
HEVC will be adopted faster than "expected" Decryption is easier than encryption. Real time Decryption can be done with 4 ARM Neon processors or 4 Cell processors
30 billion Internet Gateways and Hubs by 2020.

Multiple companies are releasing Game consoles in 2014 that can also support DLNA CVP2. Because of this and China opening up to game consoles there is a large market for a cheaper, power efficient and DRM secure Xbox 360 and PS3. The updated consoles must support the same features in AMD's Mullins (28nm bulk) or Pennar (20nm).

In my opinion there is a refreshed Xbox 360 and PS3 coming by the end of 2014. How will they meet the power, security and price goals?

Wild Speculation: If the 32nm Oban PPC package (Dec 2011 leak via SemiAccurate) is dead then why was it canceled? There is no other IBM Linkedin for a Xbox PPC processor at anything other than 32nm which used PD-SOI @ 32nm. Power8 uses PD-SOI @ 22nm and IBM is skipping 20nm going to 14 nm FD-SOI finfet.

Wild speculation => if the 32nm "oban" PPC is not being used then microsoft-sony.com might mean they are sharing a 2 - 3 MPA Cell @ 22nm PD_SOI package and emulating a Xbox 360 and PS3 with the same hardware. This makes sense as designing and forging a 22nm chip is expensive and massive volume is needed to recoup costs.
 

jeff_rigby

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Also in the 4/2010 Xbox 720 powerpoint is this on Game streaming: Start and play your favorite Xbox games from other devices like Phones and PCs with RemoteFX technology.

Nvidia Grid is using a form of RemoteFX technology and Gaikai is/was using Nvidia Grid. Nvidia Grid uses virtual GPUs to allow dynamic GPU loads, 8 or so VGPUs are run on one large GPU and multiple video frame buffers are created with each video buffer address range assigned a hardware encoder to stream to the client.

1) RemoteFX uses a virtual GPU Via [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper-V"]Hyper-V in XB1. <you have to specify the Remote Display Protocol version #>
2) RemoteFX USB Redirection:
3) RemoteFX Codec:[/URL]

RemoteFX RDP8 uses a patented scheme to differentiate video and text and uses a loss less compression for text and h.264 for everything else. Other third party RDP protocols intercept APIs for text and critical graphics and send those as DirectX or OpenGL commands while video is compressed h.264. These protocols require client support and are not an open source standard while a HTML5 browser is an open source standard.

But does the DLNA CVP2 client support RemoteFX and Nvidia Grid for Apps and Games, the answer is maybe and yes, IF it's a full screen video game then RemoteFX RDP8 has no text to send and it's just h.264 video which could use a subset of the CVP2 HTML5 browser with HTML5 <video>, Gamepad and Java.

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2013/11/15/streamed-not-installed/ said:
Amazon Web Services launched its G2 graphics instances based on NVIDIA GRID technology
OTOY released ORBX, software that sits on top of a G2 instance and enables any application to be streamed to your browser
Autodesk said it’s testing with OTOY the streaming of a suite of workstation apps to a browser using the NVIDIA GRID-based G2 instance Playcast deployed its cloud gaming system to the AWS G2 instance and demonstrated Warner Bros’s “Batman: Arkham City” video game streamed to your smart TV
Mainframe2 demonstrated Adobe Photoshop running on NVIDIA GRID at AWS and streamed to a browser Amazon announced AppStream, an in-house software for streaming apps



The following Xbox slide is talking about Xbox DLNA CVP2 Local and/or Cloud served media and games. Start and Play requires the DLNA UPnP for discovery then the native DLNA server or HTML5 <video> player to play streaming media or games.



Playcast Cloud gaming as a TV channel on Cable TV (Subset of DLNA CVP2).

11/2010 Microsoft’s secret plans for RemoteFX: Azure-based desktops, apps, and Xbox games from the cloud?

It appears that all RVU smart TVs (DLNA CVP2) can display streamed games (to this point all announced can). So far we have Samsung, LG, Sony and Toshiba announcing Client support for this and multiple companies announcing Game streaming servers. There are a number of Game Console STBs that have also announced game streaming.

And here is the final word at least for Cloud streaming: It's to any HTML5 browser with the caveat that not all browsers support it at this time. From one of the companies mentioned as supporting Nvidia Grid, they have language that confirms the HTML5 browser in DLNA CVP2 will support Game streaming. Gaikai required/requires Java and that is part of DLNA CVP2 also. Since the PS4, PS3 and XB1 have a Blu-ray player, they have Java.

But what about local (home network) game streaming.

1) Virtual GPU is not needed for a single instance streaming
2) USB redirection/Bluetooth redirection/control redirection is built into DLNA CVP2
3) The latest Remote FX Codec features (Adaptive streaming) are supported by DASH HTML5 <video> and are part of DLNA CVP2 servers some which have both decode and encode hardware codecs to transcode (XB1, PS4 and mentioned in EU energy board papers for a Blu-Ray player as well as rumors for a refreshed Xbox 361). QOS for WiFi and support for multiple platforms requires adaptive streaming and transcoding.

It would make sense for DLNA CVP2 using HTML5 (W3C gamepad and Media extensions or WebRTC) to be used to support a common LOCAL RemoteView Gameplay standard that Microsoft and the rest of the industry will support just as they all agreed on Playready DRM. The hardware is the same, the h.264 codec is the same, the W3C gamepad standard is the same, both forward control codes.... If the XB1 and PS4 are to serve to handhelds as Media Hubs then they likely will use the same features in Handhelds that Handhelds use to access DLNA CVP2 in the home from DLNA CVP2 Cable box DVRs.

Edit: I'd suggest everyone again look through the Xbox 720 powerpoint after reading about and with an understanding of DLNA CVP2; notice that most of the powerpoint is talking about features that will be available using DLNA CVP2 or the software stack it requires.
 

Ilúvatar

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It is already known that the hardware doing the streaming is not stock PS3 units, so they have definitely been digging around in the internals. Could this mean a new consumer model? Sure. But I find it more likely that they've created monstrous Frankenstein-esque server clusters that are never meant to see the light of day.
 

jeff_rigby

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Ilúvatar;100416107 said:
It is already known that the hardware doing the streaming is not stock PS3 units, so they have definitely been digging around in the internals. Could this mean a new consumer model? Sure. But I find it more likely that they've created monstrous Frankenstein-esque server clusters that are never meant to see the light of day.
Nvidia Virtual GPUs (Nvidia Grid) is already emulating a GPU so the Cell CPU is the only thing that can't be emulated by other hardware.

vGPU Manager enables up to eight users to share each physical GPU, assigning the graphics resources of the available GPUs to virtual machines in a balanced approach.
So it's possible 8 Cell CPUs with memory are attached to a Nvidia Grid.
 

jeff_rigby

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Sony Patent: Suspending State of Cloud-based Legacy Applications (PlayStation Remix) for Gaikai.

In simpler terms, Sony plays a game to a popular scene and then saves the machine state creating a "Snapshot boot" version of that scene. This allows a player to choose the scene and rather than having to play the game to get to the scene, it starts instantly. It's like scene select for movies which is impossible for games.

Snapshot boot is used by Sony to quickly load an operating system in embedded platforms. Embedded platforms have fixed hardware like Game Consoles or Blu-ray player, TVs etc. A "picture" is taken of all the hardware registers and memory and a subsequent boot loads those registers and memory with the image previously saved. This allows 8 second boots vs. 1 minute or more.

I was part of a company in the 80's that created a product called Revolver which does exactly what the patent describes for applications on the Atari ST.

It's all software but it implies more memory in the Gaikai custom design than a PS3 has. If they want to have nearly instantaneous rather than 8 seconds or so "Scene" transition then these images would be stored in memory and pointers (memory registers pointing to executable code) would be loaded into CPU and GPU registers which would then use Zero copy techniques. All this and the extra memory require a significant change to the OS.
 

coolasj19

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So, Save States? Though I may be completely wrong on the comparison. But that's what it sounds like. That Cell seems like it'll be a money sink for years to come.
 

jeff_rigby

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PS Now:

PS Now is Using PS3 hardware according to Digital Foundry but PS3 hardware does not have a h.264 hardware encoder which is necessary to lower latency. Also a PS3 running a AAA game is memory bound with 100% of the power of the PS3 Cell and GPU used to render the game. Beyond just the idea of changing Gaikai from PC hardware to PS3 hardware we have issues with PS3 hardware not able to support AAA games and streaming tech at the same time.

In tis thread I pointed to a Sony patent for a Movie Scene select feature for games to be used with Playstation Now. This also requires more memory against an already memory bound PS3 and to be nearly instantaneous must use Gigabytes of memory to support multiple "scenes".

Multiple Gigabytes of XDR memory???? I don't think so. Just the above issues point to several 22nm MPA Cells that probably use Stacked memory.


Speculation on the PS Now server design:

And we have another Sony patent that was not understood: System and method for data synchronization for a computer architecture for broadband networks I.E. Cloud server/Game server. It starts with MPA Cells in various devices and a cloud server and then Cell in a APU (MPA Cell and GPU) with 8 APUs in each bank optically connected to Stacked DRAM. This is likely the PS3 Now server card which has, according to Digital Foundry, 8 PS3s per server card.

The APU is 22nm Cell and GPU combined on one chip or 2.5D attached whatever. This likely is ALSO a building block for a refreshed PS3 and if used for a PS3 it must have a separate chip for IO, it could possibly use the PS4 second custom chip as Southbridge.
 

Blanquito

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PS Now:

PS Now is Using PS3 hardware according to Digital Foundry but PS3 hardware does not have a h.264 hardware encoder which is necessary to lower latency. Also a PS3 running a AAA game is memory bound with 100% of the power of the PS3 Cell and GPU used to render the game. Beyond just the idea of changing Gaikai from PC hardware to PS3 hardware we have issues with PS3 hardware not able to support AAA games and streaming tech at the same time.

In tis thread I pointed to a Sony patent for a Movie Scene select feature for games to be used with Playstation Now. This also requires more memory against an already memory bound PS3 and to be nearly instantaneous must use Gigabytes of memory to support multiple "scenes".

Multiple Gigabytes of XDR memory???? I don't think so. Just the above issues point to several 22nm MPA Cells that probably use Stacked memory.


Speculation on the PS Now server design:

And we have another Sony patent that was not understood: System and method for data synchronization for a computer architecture for broadband networks I.E. Cloud server/Game server. It starts with MPA Cells in various devices and a cloud server and then Cell in a APU (MPA Cell and GPU) with 8 APUs in each bank optically connected to Stacked DRAM. This is likely the PS3 Now server card which has, according to Digital Foundry, 8 PS3s per server card.

The APU is 22nm Cell and GPU combined on one chip or 2.5D attached whatever. This likely is ALSO a building block for a refreshed PS3 and if used for a PS3 it must have a separate chip for IO, it could possibly use the PS4 second custom chip as Southbridge.

Thanks Jeff. So, if I understand that last line correctly, Sony could possibly reuse the PS4's secondary chip in the ps3 refresh? Which may also allow local game streaming and save states? Which would also mean an OS update?

Also, how much savings would Sony see by putting the cell and RSX into an APU at 22nm (assuming they put that into consumer ps3s)?
 

jeff_rigby

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Thanks Jeff. So, if I understand that last line correctly, Sony could possibly reuse the PS4's secondary chip in the ps3 refresh? Which may also allow local game streaming and save states? Which would also mean an OS update?

Also, how much savings would Sony see by putting the cell and RSX into an APU at 22nm (assuming they put that into consumer ps3s)?
Lots of sharp people on NeoGAF, you have part of it. It wouldn't be a RSX or Cell Broadband engine, it's not using XDR memory or GDDR3. Think more along the lines of what Microsoft did with the Xbox 360S but update the AMD GPU to a 2014 design similar to the PS4 APU. Remove Jaguar and substitute 2 MPA Cell packages and have a much smaller GPU. The Silicon would be SOI just as with the Xbox 360S to reach the 3.2 Ghz Cell clock speeds.

The big issue here is a OS that can emulate PS3 hardware using essentially a modern Multi-Processor Architecture version of Cell and a modern AMD or Nvidia GPU that is connected to a local bank of Stacked memory (512 MB?) instead of XDR and GDDR3 memory with a PCIe interface to the PS4 second custom chip as Southbridge acting as the Flex IO.

A custom chip like this needs a huge volume to make it practical. It should be very small compared to the PS4 APU. Using it in a PS Now server and a refreshed PS3 should solve the volume requirement.

Savings for the chip isn't going to be large, saving in cooling..fanless is possible, savings in labor cost to manufacture (justifies Sony having a assembly plant in Japan) and it could use modern accessories as well as meet standby and other coming power regulations.
 

jeff_rigby

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Updates for Playtation Now information.

It requires WebRTC and likely a direct connection not WiFi to lower latency.

Since Sony is now releasing a Beta PS Now on the PS4 then that means the native libraries supporting WebRTC are done. The native libraries require DBUS and basic Glib. The critical DBUS routines are now in eGlib to support webRTC and eGlib is in the PS4.

We could get a Video chat program for the PS4 at Gamescom.
 

Hyunashi

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I would love for a special, high-priced edition of the PS4 with that PS3 mini inside. Full PS3 BC with additional cost. Hell it would be worth it (higher price) just for having one box vs two boxes under the TV.

It will never happen, though, correct? ;_;

All in white and I am in. There are still some great games coming out for PS3 which are a crap-ton more appealing than most of the games announced for current gen on all 3 consoles.
 

aygomyownroad

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I would love for a special, high-priced edition of the PS4 with that PS3 mini inside. Full PS3 BC with additional cost. Hell it would be worth it (higher price) just for having one box vs two boxes under the TV.

It will never happen, though, correct? ;_;

I would buy that. I would jump at the chance.

Hell in the dream world I would pay even more for a PS4 with complete backwards compatibility from PS1 - 3.... Would never happen though.
 

jeff_rigby

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All in white and I am in. There are still some great games coming out for PS3 which are a crap-ton more appealing than most of the games announced for current gen on all 3 consoles.
Missing the big picture.

1) Coming with DLNA CVP2 is the ability for blu-ray players to securely protect content and stream media to other certified DLNA CVP2 platforms in the home. Same is true for Sony Nasne and required by the FCC for Cable TV DVRs. PS4 and XB1 can do this also as well as act as gateway servers and Gamestream to handhelds and other platforms in the home.

2) The PS3 has (Wake on LAN) and can also serve Blu-ray to platforms on the home network. The PS3 already can use some memory and CPU time to gamestream some less intense games to the Vita or other platforms in the home. AAA games that use all the PS3 resources they can get can't PS Now like game stream.

Problem is that the PS3 to blu-ray stream to other platforms uses too much power (80 watts) and violates voluntary power regulations which are likely to be mandated soon (21 watts).

Here is the hook: Control of the Living room UI

Any DLNA CVP2 certified gateway, Nanse (DLNA Tuner & DVR for OTA and Cable TV), blu-ray, game server or Cable TV DLNA CVP2 DVR on the home network advertises it'self and can be accessed by any DLNA CVP2 client. The server generates a HTML5 menu that can have URLs to VOD IPTV and services/apps that Sony can charge for.

By 2017 ATSC 2.0 should be mainstream for OTA and Cable TV will be moving to all IPTV where every one will have to have a certified DLNA CVP2 platform.

Sony and Microsoft want as many platforms in the home with their UIs as possible:

1) A Xbox 360 Mini for instance sits on the home network as a Apple TV like STB as well as a local and remote game engine..it has routines supporting a XB1 that can have a Xbox 360 game disk inserted in it, the XB1 looks on the home network and sees the Xbox 360 mini, wakes it and streams the game disk to it setting up a webRTC link to and from the Xbox mini to send video and controller data to and from the Xbox mini and the XB1. End result is the XB1 can play Xbox 360 games.

2) Sony should want to do the same with a PS3 Mini or a PS3 SKU with it's own Hard Disk and blu-ray disk.

Home network X3 Cable modems already have planned support for Samba Network disk drives and DLNA CVP2 requires Samba Browser based network drive access

The idea is to get features people want in as many platforms in the home as possible to get the Sony or Microsoft UI and services in front of as many people as possible.

While Microsoft has not been rumored to game stream to anything beyond XB1 and Windows 8.1 platforms, I think like Sony with PS Now eventually supporting other platforms, they want any DLNA CVP2 client to be displaying a HTML5 UI from a Sony or Microsoft server.
 

jeff_rigby

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Dan Ristic @dristic101 Mar 18 2014

Great first day at Sony today. Excited to make the PlayStation experience better along with @don_olmstead

Dan Ristic was very involved with WebRTC. "He is passionate about front-end engineering" = Developing the framework applications use on the PlayStation platforms. Don Olmstead wrote the WebGL UI framework for the PS4 not the actual UI.

WebRTC Data Channel Dan Ristic - Developer Evangelist

With WebRTC - Faster Applications = lowering latency

Multiplayer Gaming
File Sharing
Remote Control
Second Screens
Content Delivery
Everything in bold is needed for DLNA CVP2, PS-Now and Multi-player games are a side benefit of WebRTC support required by DLNA CVP2.

Playstation experience = Every connected platform? PS3? Gee that would require a significant firmware update changing the XMB functionality.
 
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