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PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X Mid-Gen Refreshes Are Unlikely, Albert Penello Says

diffusionx

Gold Member
The opposite is true, MS at least is going to push this cell phone style business model even harder, it's not a mid-gen refresh as much as it is the new console.

I don't think there will be console revisions this gen. Current gen consoles were born massively underpowered for available technology standards and by 2016 it was pretty obvious they were struggling to keep up with games. Next gen won't be the same case.

Also, correct me if i'm wrong but none of the console revisions sold particularly well, didn't they? If it was an experiment to check how willing were consumers to accept shorter gens, it failed.

The technology is not going to suddenly stop advancing. The 360/PS3 were struggling to keep up by 2009, it just wasn't in the business plan. Now it is.
 
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MrS

Banned
The bell can't be unrung. These companies know there's money to be made with a mid-gen refresh. I 100% expect to see it again next gen.
 

PresetError

Neophyte
The technology is not going to suddenly stop advancing. The 360/PS3 were struggling to keep up by 2009, it just wasn't in the business plan. Now it is.

Diminishing returns. It's way more difficult to sell the difference between 4k and 8k or 60fps or more than 1080p and 4k or 30fps to 60fps. People obsessed with FOMO in the console space is very niche.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
Diminishing returns. It's way more difficult to sell the difference between 4k and 8k or 60fps or more than 1080p and 4k or 30fps to 60fps. People obsessed with FOMO in the console space is very niche.

This is true, but I don't think it's just about resolution. It wasn't with PS3/360 - I remember how even a cheap PC could get you not just 1080p, not just 60fps, but way better textures, better effects, etc. I think RT and other tech is going to evolve very rapidly on the PC side and the consoles will find themselves struggling to keep up. I don't think this stuff is standing still that's for sure.
 
Andrew House said that the Pro was a reaction to console gamers jumping ship to PC mid-gen. It had nothing to do with 4K TVs.


They will most likely do it again, especially when RT performance on PC keeps advancing faster and faster.

So you're telling me Sony reacted to a 5% gaming market to make the PS4 Pro? Because that's about the percentage of PC gamers with the high-end graphics cards and rigs out there.

That would be very nonsensical of them to, or anyone for that matter. I always felt the mid-gen refreshes were more a way to milk some extra profits and, in Sony's case, to make something more suitable for VR gaming. Both PS5 and Series X seem highly ready for VR in their base iterations this time around and they're already set up for 4K gaming so there's not much of a reason to do mid-gen powered-up refreshes.

Slimline versions, on the other hand, could happen.
 
Makes sense considering the upcoming tech road map.

Just to do a 5 - 6 year gen and then look at making a proper new console.
 

Grinchy

Banned
I want to believe it. The mid-gen refreshes suck. Some games have some nice bonuses and the Pro was good for VR, but everything is always still shackled by needing to first be made on the lower end version anyway.

And then you only know which games have patches and what they even do if you are a hardcore weirdo checking an excel spreadsheet that an even more hardcore weirdo keeps updated.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member

Penello explained why mid-gen PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series refreshes are unlikely to happen. The PlayStation 4 Pro and Xbox One X were more of a necessity due to 4K displays becoming rapidly more mainstream, as the base models were designed driving 1080p output. As 8K displays are unlikely to become more mainstream in 3 or so years, there may simply be no need for a mid-gen refresh this time around.


In a following post, Albert Penello also highlighted how a 20, 24 teraflop machine is not going to be affordable in a console form factor even in 3 years, making a PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X mid-gen refresh even more unlikely.
This does lend credence to the argument that maybe those who can, should consider upgrading your pc. Yes, it's more expensive (a lot more) but if you want to remain on the cutting edge, these consoles aren't going to be on top for very long.
 

Yams

Member
the only way i see it happening, is if 8k picks up. Otherwise, i dont see it.

I sure hope not. We'd be deep into the land of diminishing returns at that point.

EDIT: Other people made the same point earlier.
 
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CAB_Life

Member
I’m quite fine with a classic 4-5 year cycle to be honest. Last gen was really fucking long in the tooth.
 

Fnord

Member
Mid-gen: "Slim" PS5 at $300. PS5 Pro at $500 (or whatever the launch PS5 costs on release). Sony couldn't make PS4 Pros fast enough to satisfy demand. They have to be looking at that and planning accordingly.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
These consoles will support 4K out of the gate, so there is no need to play into this hype anymore. All they can deliver with an upgrade is a more powerful system that delivers more native 4K support or something. Which isn't really feasible. 2013 was ofcourse different, 1080p became standard on consoles finally but mainstream TV's already slowly moved on to 4K soon after release and PC was enjoyed on higher resolutions as well.

Only if 8k becomes as widely accepted within a few years as 4K has become last few years there is a chance but the jump to 8k resolution would need a massive upgrade thats simply not feasible for a mid gen change. Perhaps not even possible. It would essentially need a new gen of hardware thats priced as such as well.

Without tricks like DLSS or checkerboarding, the difference in processing power needed from 1080p to 4k is already huge. 4k to 8k would be far bigger.
 
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NullZ3r0

Banned
No. Both Microsoft & Sony wanted to push consumers towards the 4K TV market as fast as possible. That's the only reason "why" those midgen refreshes exist.
Sony's own exec says it was a hardware power issue. The Xbox One S was 4K capable.
 
We know MS strategy is to have programs similar to how smart phones are sold where you can get your console with little to no upfront cost as long as you sign up for 2 years or so of Game Pass and Gold and make monthly payments. This is probably why they haven't released the price yet, because while I'm sure you can buy the console outright the plans require some explanation because theyre something new to the console space. Mid gen refreshes for MS wont really be a thing because with their scheme there are no more generations. Just new hardware.

Sony on the other hand... how will they compete with that? Sony is who I expect mid gen refreshes from because they've announced no new novel ways to buy your console. They're stuck in the traditional same old same old.

Just think with smart phones how it would work if Carrier A says "2 year contract and low monthly payments gets you a $1000 phone today and you can trade it in towards your next one."

while Carrier B says "You have to pay the $1000 up front everytime you want a new one."

MS is going to make this pricing model standard and if Sony can't compete with it they're fucked. Thats how MS could theoretically do a 20 TF upgrade that traditionally would be too costly in a couple years that Sony cant. Monthly payments.

Edit- Also Xbox Smart Delivery isn't being touted so heavily just because its going to bridge the gap between the current hardware and next gen. Its whats going to bridge the gap between all of MS upcoming hardware models.
 
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Even if they do mid-gen refreshes they won't be trying to double the TF number they'll be looking to be able to do things like more RT without dropping res or framerate, it would be about bumping things up a bit not about trying to double everything, that would be insane. I doubt we'll get refreshes either although I do think Matt at resetera may have hinted in the past that those could be planned.
 
So you're telling me Sony reacted to a 5% gaming market to make the PS4 Pro? Because that's about the percentage of PC gamers with the high-end graphics cards and rigs out there.

That would be very nonsensical of them to, or anyone for that matter.
I'm not telling you this, Andrew House is...

and I don't see why he would lie about this. Just look at the Steam numbers, that's a lotta people who most likely have both a PC and PS4 and what would Sony rather see? People with PCs upgrading their GPUs for 250-400 bucks and spending money on Steam or buy a mid-gen refresh for 400 bucks?

The market is a lot bigger than you think, otherwise Sony wouldn't start releasing their games on PC.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
We know MS strategy is to have programs similar to how smart phones are sold where you can get your console with little to no upfront cost as long as you sign up for 2 years or so of Game Pass and Gold and make monthly payments. This is probably why they haven't released the price yet, because while I'm sure you can buy the console outright the plans require some explanation because theyre something new to the console space. Mid gen refreshes for MS wont really be a thing because with their scheme there are no more generations. Just new hardware.

Sony on the other hand... how will they compete with that? Sony is who I expect mid gen refreshes from because they've announced no new novel ways to buy your console. They're stuck in the traditional same old same old.

Just think with smart phones how it would work if Carrier A says "2 year contract and low monthly payments gets you a $1000 phone today and you can trade it in towards your next one."

while Carrier B says "You have to pay the $1000 up front everytime you want a new one."

MS is going to make this pricing model standard and if Sony can't compete with it they're fucked. Thats how MS could theoretically do a 20 TF upgrade that traditionally would be too costly in a couple years that Sony cant. Monthly payments.

Edit- Also Xbox Smart Delivery isn't being touted so heavily just because its going to bridge the gap between the current hardware and next gen. Its whats going to bridge the gap between all of MS upcoming hardware models.

I agree. They'd have to be careful not to refresh the hardware too often, or drift in too expensive of a direction since console buyers (even for $500 boxes) are cheap overall. I can see them potentially supporting 4 consoles at any given time (the newest x and s and the previous x and s version), though the devs wouldn't be happy. LOL
 

Gamerguy84

Member
There will be both upgraded in 4 years.
MS is releasing 3 different sku in since 2017.

There both gonna release a mid gen upgrade And Im good with that. The Pro and 1 X were not one off’s.....

MS definitely isnt afraid of releasing different HW. Current gen they released 5 different iterations. X1, no kinect X1, S, X1, digital.
 

devilNprada

Member
Sony couldn't make PS4 Pros fast enough to satisfy demand.

Did PS4 pro really sell a lot? Anyone have any numbers on this?

I bought one in 2018 when I upgraded my TV.
I do remember they were never on sale and had to wait for a limited edition to be released to get some kind of discount.
 

01011001

Banned
they already target 4k, and noone in their right mind would want them to jump to 8k... which is a uselessly high resolution tbh.
 

rofif

Banned
4k is enough. 8k od to much except you use your tv on the PC desk. Then it's like 4k at 27 inches... Almost
 

ZehDon

Member
Penello is entitled to his opinion, but frankly... why wouldn't they? Do they suddenly hate money?

The PS4Pro and the Xbox One X both sold well, triggered a wave of "double dibs" that the slim revisions don't always provide, and quickly became the defacto model of their respective brands. Virtually every piece of marketing for Sony's exclusives is from a PS4Pro, and Microsoft was painfully eager to move on from the original Xbox One as soon as possible - understandable perhaps, given its monumental failure.

There will absolutely be mid-gen refreshes. But, to prevent consumers holding out - like I'm planning to do with the PS5 (PSVR2 + PS5Pro ftw) - they'll deny their existence until they announce the product.
 

A.Romero

Member
There will be refreshes for sure. There is no reason not to have them.

I wouldn't wait to get a next gen console until they come out, though.
 

Blond

Banned
Hes not at MS anymore and i tend to agree with him. Last gen, the consoles were really underpowered at launch. This isnt the case this time. In fact they seemed to have doubled down on power this time.

Anything is possible, but id be very very surprised at a midgen refresh this time around.


The X1 was underpowered, they needed a refresh. The PS4 managed to push out TLOU 2, X1 doesn't have a title that looks half as good.

4K as a whole blew up in adoption, it only made sense to capitalize on it
 
I think the mid gen refresh made next gen less exciting. Who cares about the Series X when we already got native 4K 3 years ago?
 

truth411

Member
Maybe where you live.
Im in the U.S. quick google search 4k tvs were at 31% penetration back at the end of 2018. Don't know what country your in but the statement that "Hardly anyone" has 4k tvs is Factually not true anymore.
 
Im in the U.S. quick google search 4k tvs were at 31% penetration back at the end of 2018. Don't know what country your in but the statement that "Hardly anyone" has 4k tvs is Factually not true anymore.

And anyone buying a tv is pretty much going to be forced to get 4K because it's nearly impossible to find 1080p sets at big box retailers anymore, at least in store.
 
I think there will be a less significant pro model in 3 years time, maybe 16tf with 1.6gb ssd. Double tf will be hard to achieve in the same form factor.
 

Iced Arcade

Member
long story short Sony & MS cheap at the start of this gen with outdated hardware, tried to use terms like "super charged PC" and "power of the cloud" but it just didn't cut it for an entire gen.
 

Rayderism

Member
Saying it's "unlikely" doesn't mean it won't happen.

BUT

In the "unlikely" event that they DO release a mid-gen refresh, I won't be able to help myself but to update to the more powerful version, just like I did with the PS4 to the Pro. And that's just what these companies count on. Of course they will deny that it will happen, they want you to buy what they have now. But then they will do it and say it was for "reasons".

Either way, I won't delay my enjoyment of next-gen on the (IMO) very likely chance that they will release another mid-gen refresh a few years later.
 

yurinka

Member
This Penello has no idea, or just is trying to beg to buy their console.

If Lockhart is happening, they don't give a fuck about releasing more SKUs. 4K TVs are still a small portion of the TV install base at homes worldwide. Games take longer to be made, so the generation needs to be longer to allow the studios to release 2 or 3 games for a console to get all their R&D, engines, tools, etc. work they did for that generation.

In the 1st party side, they find some people want new consoles but can't release a new console that soon because consoles market and development isn't like releasing a new iPhone, so instead of a next gen console they decided to release a mid-gen refresh with a more powerful version of the console, with the idea that it may appeal more people than just a slim version.

I don't think there will be console revisions this gen. Current gen consoles were born massively underpowered for available technology standards and by 2016 it was pretty obvious they were struggling to keep up with games. Next gen won't be the same case.
Not true, my base PS4 runs perfectly fine games like TLOU2 and RDR2. Way more powerful PCs available when they were released, in 2013, barely gave multi games stuff like some more resolution, or framerates for games that weren't locked and a few secondary visual effects that most players won't notice outside Digital Foundry or similar comparision videos. And even with games like RDR2, most people wouldn't be able to say which version looks better looking at the games without being told which version are they looking in a 1080p display, which must be right now the most popular by far.

Back then for a decent pricing that a console requires they did a great job, it was impossible to get something better. Same goes with what they are doing now with RT, very fast SSDs and relaetd stuff, native? 4K and enough horsepower.
 
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welshrat

Member
Nonsense, if there is a market for them in 3-4 years then they will build them, the stage has already been set this gen.
 

Stuart360

Member
Nonsense, if there is a market for them in 3-4 years then they will build them, the stage has already been set this gen.
The problem i see is the hook for the Pro and OneX was '4k gaming', but i doubt even in 3 or 4 years from now they would be able to make a Pro console capable of 8k, or close to 8k, gaming. i.e. a PS5/XSX game running at 8k. I doubt even PC's 3 or 4 years from now would be able to run most next gen games at 8k. Plus i dount 8ktv's will be very widespread even 4 years from now, we havent even got 4ktv's as standard yet.
 
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ZywyPL

Banned
4k is enough. 8k od to much except you use your tv on the PC desk. Then it's like 4k at 27 inches... Almost

We heard that before with FullHD, didn't we? And it didn't take long for FHD TVs to completely vanish from the market. Like it or not, the manufacturers will force 8K deep into our throats eventually, something has to drive new sales, otherwise all those companies will bankrupt. Not to mention many average consumers are completely vulnerable to marketing slogans and tricks, I know a guy who literally switched from a decent 400$ 48" FHD TV to an utterly shitty 200$ 42" 4K one, because he really believes it's better, while most of his TV channels are SD to begin with lol, but the "4K" badge and the marketing around it completely bought him, and there are many many such people out the that are not tech savvy at all and are left on the mercy of the marketing departments, I mean, just look:


4K-8K_Comparison-no-credit-hdmi-org-altered.jpg



This poor tiger has been exploited since the transition from SD to HD, then HD to FHD, and so on, and now apparently even 4K is a jagged/blurry mess... As long as he's still alive he will keep proving that more=better, and many average Joes will fell for that. It's not the question of "if", but "when".
 

Golgo 13

The Man With The Golden Dong
Even if mid gen refreshes aren't necessary they will still do them because it enables them to keep their unit prices high throughout the generation with little to no additional R&D required.

They did well this gen so they will keep on doing them until consoles are no longer a thing.
I think they’ll find a way to do it as well — think about it from a logistics standpoint — if you can get people to buy your hardware twice in a 6 year period with an upgrade (and both MS and Sony did), there’s little reason to think they won’t do it again.

Hell, I was happy to buy those upgraded consoles and I loved what they brought to the table. The new Nvidia GPU’s coming out this year will be significantly faster than what’s in the XSX and PS5, imagine what the gulf will be like in 2023.
 

anothertech

Member
surejan.gif

This is the dude that tried to convince us for a year on this very forum that there would be no noticeable differences between Xbone and PS4 third party games.

Wow how wrong history proved him.
 
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