Support NeoGAF

[Kataploom]

Well, if you're trying to sell mobile quality and type of games to traditional players, you'll get what Wii got but without most of Wii wow factor, as far as I see it, they're basically the same Wii type of games for the same Wii type of audience that edgy traditional players made fun of back in the time, but as some has said, that audience is mostly on phone or don't have the disposable income to spend on an expensive weird headset instead of something else they'd like more.

The thing is that Wii had many games for traditional players from Nintendo and some Japanese third parties, apart from Alyx what does VR have?

I wonder honestly, I'm not following much of VR because what I've seen is the above exposed, without those games the device will only sell to the minority that still think it is the future (it is not, it's the present and that's as much as it reaches) and very casuals with money that follow the fads and/or want a cool party gaming device

 

[poppabk]

Well, if you're trying to sell mobile quality and type of games to traditional players, you'll get what Wii got but without most of Wii wow factor, as far as I see it, they're basically the same Wii type of games for the same Wii type of audience that edgy traditional players made fun of back in the time, but as some has said, that audience is mostly on phone or don't have the disposable income to spend on an expensive weird headset instead of something else they'd like more.

The thing is that Wii had many games for traditional players from Nintendo and some Japanese third parties, apart from Alyx what does VR have?

I wonder honestly, I'm not following much of VR because what I've seen is the above exposed, without those games the device will only sell to the minority that still think it is the future (it is not, it's the present and that's as much as it reaches) and very casuals with money that follow the fads and/or want a cool party gaming device

There is plenty of AA level standard type games and AAA sim stuff. After the fall, Into the radius, Ironman, Contractors, VTOL, No man's sky, subnautica, hitman trilogy, Doom VFR, Flight Sim, Asseto Corsa, Dirt Rally, DCS etc etc.
Then there are also lots of decent but with jank mods for things like Resident Evil remakes and Alien Isolation.

 

[MScarpa]

Dumb comparison.

3D TV shows the exact same thing as a normal TV, just with some added effects. VR games have plenty of possibilities that traditional games don't have.

Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't comparing their abilities, It was a comparison to the success so far. IMO 3D TV was pushed for awhile on the consumer and died. VR is also now being pushed onto consumer and so far seems to not have taken off.

 

[speckz]

It needs to be untethered or fully wireless, and the headsets need to be lighter. At least for me. Hopefully, this will happen as technology gets better in the coming years.

 

[Lumpyoatmeal]

https://www.techgoing.com/meta-univ...headsets-will-be-shipped-worldwide-this-year/


Global VR retailer and individual sales adoption dropped 12% this year globally so only 9.6 million headsets were shipped, so the sold-through would be even less, and while we don't know by how much less, given the drop in adoption in general, along with how many headsets cost over $500 to buy sitting on shelves, it could be below 9 million sold-through as a possibility.

Quest 2 is starting to dry up along with the oculus go and Quest 1 has already been a rare fine, HTC is revamping its strategy to focus on affordability in 2023 and isn't going to had on their current headsets outside the flow, and everyone else is niche.

There's a chance the influx of new headsets coming in 2023, many in the first half of the year, might be able to get some interest but almost none of the new headsets are coming out with games to spark new interest in the market, at least so far, some will have conferences showing the game and general software applications the headsets will offer, and some will just be advanced versions relying on existing libraries.

All in all though it seems people are expecting Apples entry to shakeup the market, I also think TCL and HTC if executed right, might be able to cause a few ripples in the water with their Quest 2 price targeting headsets.

But it is also true that so far VR seems to be having problems staying in the minds of consumers, after the first handful of year the best that has gained traction was the Quest 2 headset, but that's been getting old hat without any drivers for awhile and is soon to be replaced. I think we will be seeing the end of Zucker dominance in VR next year, unless he strikes it out the park with the Quest 3.

As an owner of the Oculus Quest 2, the best accessory you can buy right now is a fucking dust blower.

Yes, the killer app for all these upcoming VR devices is a god damn dust blower.

 

[Lumpyoatmeal]

i doubt i'll ever get one unless it turns into a must-have experience. i also get a bit sick playing in VR. I'd be interested in a AAA title like Final Fantasy , Zelda or Metroid if done right and got rave reviews

If you need some dust I got a lot of it over here sitting on my Quest 2, holla at your boy.

 

[Akuza89]

I quite enjoy VR when i do play it.
Do i own a VR headset? no, i used to have a PSVR but didn't use so got rid of it.

It's something only the hardcore will follow, not something worldwide like companies keep trying to push it as.
As long as it's cheap to produce the units, update/maintain and give new games for and there's a fanbase that keeps it profitable, i don't see it as a failure just not as big a success as they would like.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Some of these excuses continue to be bizarre, and some of the people making them continue without realization (assuming it's not intentional) to take the Quest 2 and twist it as the whole market.

The GC and Xbox 1 comparison is crazy to , together both of those consoles sold over 40 million units together in 4.5 years, and that's conveniently excluding the other consoles ( and handhelds but that's optional) where as in nearing 8 years VR hasn't sold 40 million, and MIGHT sell that my late next year and IF it does it will be because of primarily ONE platform that is currently in decline, while if you remove that there's an argument that not even 1 million headsets globally sold this year, with the high end being maybe around 1.5 million at best and that's unrealistic, best bet is just over 1mill.

Software sales are also horrible outside the Quest and only certain games attached to Quest 2 were improving earlier this year while other software started to decline, the top selling VR games are the top 5 or so games on the Quest 2, and we are seeing those numbers lower, and for years Beat Saber was the defacto fastest selling and number one selling game cumulatively.

To pretend the VR market is healthy NOW is a dream, there is a chance it may be next year even some of the headsets in the first half of the year catch on but until then right now it's not. 9.6 million "shipped" headsets with less sold is mostly one device that's in decline, with the other near two dozen headsets combined arguably not reach or just reaching past 1 million.

Technically, we aren't even seeing growth, we are seeing an overall decline from last year, and perhaps the last two years.

Then you have people talking about killer apps, killer apps has never been the problem, people brought the Quest 2 in droves because of what casuals considered to be killer apps for a certain period of time before they weren't, and we didn't see a bunch of Beat Saber selling games coming out of nowhere, and we saw overtime a decline or fragmentation with declining interest.

Sure, more titles that will keep people longer, that are quality, will help of course. But pretending 5 Half-life Alyx's will resolve the problem is fantasy, in fact Alyx is part of the problem, those games are targeting a subset of gamers expectations of VR, not where VR actually has to be with it's quality software to really bring people to the platform.

As long as it's cheap to produce the units,

Huh? Doubt there's much margin of profit if any on these things.

It's also funny because while we have companies like Microsoft abandoning any attempts for VR on their consoles despite initially promising them, calling the market "niche", VR devices through hardware sales alone generated more revenue in 2022 than services like GamePass have generated in subscriber revenue. Let alone actual install base growth, comparatively.

Yet somehow subscription services are the future, and VR is a dead end. Make it make sense

Taking out of context numbers and changing them for one sub service and ignoring the others that together are much more than the VR market put together is one thing, but pretending that half that revenue from VR isn't lost immediately in losses is even more crazy. But what's really nuts is even after doing all the above, you compare all VR headsets to only ONE sub.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Eddie-Griffin I said VR headsets in 2021 generated more revenue than GamePass did, which is factually true. Revenue doesn't mean profit and GamePass is subsidized the same way a lot of VR headsets are subsidized, so I don't get why you only bring up the latter as if the former isn't subsidized.

And technically, I can simply limit that comparison to the Meta Quest 2 and GamePass, one a singular VR product, the other a singular subscription service, and the point still holds true. Even if you include revenue of GamePass, PS Now (before it was rolled into PS+ in 2022) and NSO+ (since all three are roughly similar in terms of their subscription model), they combined generated LESS revenue in 2021 than Meta Quest 2.

I only bring it up because if people want to call VR niche, so be it. But game subscription services like GamePass, PS Now and NSO+ are also niche going by their revenue, even combined. That's all I'm trying to say. Maybe with GameFly added in the mix the revenue tips to sub service favor but, GameFly isn't owned by a platform holder and they deal mainly with physical releases with a more Blockbuster/Hollywood Video style model rather than a Netflix one (I'd say maybe they have some mix of Netflix-style model in there but that by large isn't their business model).

 

[BackBackPunch]

Remember when the iPhone first came out, and people were amazed with that app that let you tilt your phone and pour a fake beer with it? And after a while, that wasn't very interesting anymore? That's kind of like VR as a whole. First-time users are amazed that they can move their hand and turn a knob in a game, or flip a switch, or aim a gun. But eventually you get really bored with turning knobs and flicking switches in VR, and you realize that the experiences are just the same garbage over and over again.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Eddie-Griffin I said VR headsets in 2021 generated more revenue than GamePass did, which is factually true. Revenue doesn't mean profit and GamePass is subsidized the same way a lot of VR headsets are subsidized, so I don't get why you only bring up the latter as if the former isn't subsidized.

And technically, I can simply limit that comparison to the Meta Quest 2 and GamePass, one a singular VR product, the other a singular subscription service, and the point still holds true. Even if you include revenue of GamePass, PS Now (before it was rolled into PS+ in 2022) and NSO+ (since all three are roughly similar in terms of their subscription model), they combined generated LESS revenue in 2021 than Meta Quest 2.

I only bring it up because if people want to call VR niche, so be it. But game subscription services like GamePass, PS Now and NSO+ are also niche going by their revenue, even combined. That's all I'm trying to say. Maybe with GameFly added in the mix the revenue tips to sub service favor but, GameFly isn't owned by a platform holder and they deal mainly with physical releases with a more Blockbuster/Hollywood Video style model rather than a Netflix one (I'd say maybe they have some mix of Netflix-style model in there but that by large isn't their business model).

You can't use total generated revenue for the subs services, and then for VR pretend they aren't having their revenue reduced by losses by the time that revenue even hits the table. You're making a very shady argument that doesn't make much sense from a business perspective outside raw PR numbers which tells us nothing. Something you usually complain about when Microsoft does it.

 

[64bitmodels]

Remember when the iPhone first came out, and people were amazed with that app that let you tilt your phone and pour a fake beer with it? And after a while, that wasn't very interesting anymore?

kind of a terrible fucking example considering that the iphone went on to become the most successful tech product ever made.

 

[BackBackPunch]

kind of a terrible fucking example considering that the iphone went on to become the most successful tech product ever made.

I'm talking about the stupid pour-a-beer app, not the hardware. (dude made tons of money at first off it). The apps for VR are mostly novelty shit.

 

[64bitmodels]

I'm talking about the stupid pour-a-beer app, not the hardware. The apps for VR are mostly novelty shit.

.... how the heck is Half Life Alyx or Beat Saber just 'novelties'?

They managed to take first person shooters and rhythm games and transition them seamlessly into VR and they're both experiences that only work best in VR. They wouldn't be half as immersive or interesting if they were on a monitor, and in the case of Beat Saber you can't play beat saber with a controller or a mouse. you couldn't make it work

 

[ozz ex machina]

.... how the heck is Half Life Alyx or Beat Saber just 'novelties'?

They managed to take first person shooters and rhythm games and transition them seamlessly into VR and they're both experiences that only work best in VR. They wouldn't be half as immersive or interesting if they were on a monitor, and in the case of Beat Saber you can't play beat saber with a controller or a mouse. you couldn't make it work

"trainsition them seamlessly into VR" - lol what a load of garbage.

It's still gimmicky. Not something you want to play a lot of. And pretty boring after a while. Also not comfortable.

I was all aboard VR until I got my CV1 at launch. Realised it's just another gimmick and nothing has sold me otherwise yet.

HL Alyx is the only thing remotely close to being worth it and that took the best developers in the industry to spend years and a tonne of resources to make.

 

[RafterXL]

The problem with VR is the whole catch 22 of getting AAA experiences and that fact you won't get them without a huge install base, but you won't get a huge install base without full fledged AAA experiences. Sure, companies like Valve who just shit money and can do whatever they want, will occasionally release an HL:Alyx, but even Sony isn't pushing high end VR experiences. They're charging $60 for a half-assed, on rails Horizon cash in for fucks sake.

I have a PSVR1 and it's basically shit. The one compelling experience I had was RE7, everything else was a quick novelty experience. For Christmas I bought my nephew a Reverb G2 and RTX 3070 and even with the higher quality most of the PC games are the same kind of stuff you got on PS, stuff I wouldn't play other than for the gimmick of VR.

I have a PSVR2 pre-ordered, and unless Sony has a nice showcase of actual games that would excite me without VR, I'll probably cancel and wait it out to see if this fizzles out as much as the rest of them. The hardware is amazing but without the games it's useless.

.... how the heck is Half Life Alyx or Beat Saber just 'novelties'?

They managed to take first person shooters and rhythm games and transition them seamlessly into VR and they're both experiences that only work best in VR. They wouldn't be half as immersive or interesting if they were on a monitor, and in the case of Beat Saber you can't play beat saber with a controller or a mouse. you couldn't make it work

You completely ignored "mostly". HL:Alyx is an anomaly in the VR world, and that's why it stands out. If a large portion, or he'll any, of VR games were like that, no one would be complaining about what we get on VR.

 

[ChoosableOne]

.... how the heck is Half Life Alyx or Beat Saber just 'novelties'?

They managed to take first person shooters and rhythm games and transition them seamlessly into VR and they're both experiences that only work best in VR. They wouldn't be half as immersive or interesting if they were on a monitor, and in the case of Beat Saber you can't play beat saber with a controller or a mouse. you couldn't make it work

After watching this video, first I thought of applying the same method, then I realized how eager I was to play Beat Saber and bought Oculus Quest 2. The interesting thing is that Beat Saber isn't among my top 5 favorite VR games, it's not even my favorite VR rhythm game.

VR may not have changed my video game habits, but it is a wonderful toy that I open and play around with pleasure time to time. Even if I don't buy another VR game for the rest of my life, I think I can have a good time with Pistol Whip, Paradiddle and Eleven Table Tennis.

 

[Denton]

I love VR but Index is still just too expensive and PSVR2 seems like it will not have a PC support thanks to some genius's decision, so VR is kinda dead as far as I am concerned. A shame. Maybe in a decade.

 

[64bitmodels]

"trainsition them seamlessly into VR" - lol what a load of garbage.

okay, but they did. It's a Half Life game with all the physics interactions you'd expect but much better, much more accurate, and now you're in VR and can interact with the objects more accurately than in any other Source game previously.

 

[64bitmodels]

After watching this video, first I thought of applying the same method, then I realized how eager I was to play Beat Saber and bought Oculus Quest 2. The interesting thing is that Beat Saber isn't among my top 5 favorite VR games, it's not even my favorite VR rhythm game.

VR may not have changed my video game habits, but it is a wonderful toy that I open and play around with pleasure time to time. Even if I don't buy another VR game for the rest of my life, I think I can have a good time with Pistol Whip, Paradiddle and Eleven Table Tennis.

 

[ozz ex machina]

okay, but they did. It's a Half Life game with all the physics interactions you'd expect but much better, much more accurate, and now you're in VR and can interact with the objects more accurately than in any other Source game previously.

Yeah and you can fight one or two combine at a time and do gimmicky puzzles. WOW THIS IS SEAMLESS.

Also this is after about 5+ years of VR test labs at valve making it the best possible game to sell VR units.

It's not seamless at all is it. It's not how you'd picture VR gaming to be in an ideal state.

 

[mckmas8808]

I’d get PlayStation VR if GT7 announced it supports it.

Not sure what's taking Sony so long to announce this.

 

[64bitmodels]

Yeah and you can fight one or two combine at a time and do gimmicky puzzles. WOW THIS IS SEAMLESS.

yes. you fight one or 2 combine at a time. Like in Half Life 2. You expect this to be Left 4 Dead 2 or some shit? And the fuck do you mean by 'gimmicky' puzzles? Motherfucker, every puzzle has a gimmick. That's what makes them goddamn puzzles. The 'gimmick' found in Half Life 2's puzzles are just... the physics.

 

[mckmas8808]

In the mean time you’re missing out.

He'd be the same guy that would have not bought the PS1, N64, PS2, Xbox, Gamecube, X360 or PS3 because he was waiting for a great level of 3D graphics and an amazing online infrastructure with his console gaming.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Yeah and you can fight one or two combine at a time and do gimmicky puzzles. WOW THIS IS SEAMLESS.

Also this is after about 5+ years of VR test labs at valve making it the best possible game to sell VR units.

It's not seamless at all is it. It's not how you'd picture VR gaming to be in an ideal state.

What does gimmicky puzzles mean? Is it less gimmicky to solve them with a controller in your hand in front of a TV?

The entire point of VR is to put you in the game, and they’ve succeeded in doing so.

 

[Crayon]

Well, if you're trying to sell mobile quality and type of games to traditional players, you'll get what Wii got but without most of Wii wow factor, as far as I see it, they're basically the same Wii type of games for the same Wii type of audience that edgy traditional players made fun of back in the time, but as some has said, that audience is mostly on phone or don't have the disposable income to spend on an expensive weird headset instead of something else they'd like more.

The thing is that Wii had many games for traditional players from Nintendo and some Japanese third parties, apart from Alyx what does VR have?

I wonder honestly, I'm not following much of VR because what I've seen is the above exposed, without those games the device will only sell to the minority that still think it is the future (it is not, it's the present and that's as much as it reaches) and very casuals with money that follow the fads and/or want a cool party gaming device

I actually pulled up the psvr most popular games recently looking to make the point that there were probably less than 20 games worth porting over to psvr2, and it turned out the number was higher than I expected. I like space pirate trainer and stuff like that but I highly prefer games that feel "full". (eg: tetris effect is just plush tetris in sensory deprivation. somewhat moving, but a novelty. and something like far pointhad mad polish, but is pure baby's first vr simple, paper beast is weird and wonderful but it's a modest production at best, etc)

The catalog is pretty good actually. It is on the smaller side so you do have to get into an experimental mindset to take full advantage of it. If you are willing to try things hoping to find a surprise, there's some robust games in there. Nothing like you would expect a similarly-priced console library to be, though. That is the main thing holding vr back. For that kind of outlay, you want to see a stack of games that make you feel spoiled for choice, at least after several years.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Well, if you're trying to sell mobile quality and type of games to traditional players, you'll get what Wii got but without most of Wii wow factor, as far as I see it, they're basically the same Wii type of games for the same Wii type of audience that edgy traditional players made fun of back in the time, but as some has said, that audience is mostly on phone or don't have the disposable income to spend on an expensive weird headset instead of something else they'd like more.

The thing is that Wii had many games for traditional players from Nintendo and some Japanese third parties, apart from Alyx what does VR have?

I wonder honestly, I'm not following much of VR because what I've seen is the above exposed, without those games the device will only sell to the minority that still think it is the future (it is not, it's the present and that's as much as it reaches) and very casuals with money that follow the fads and/or want a cool party gaming device

I forget where I saw it but there was a big article about Meta VR and how their new Horizons was failing. Within that article, they said that 40% of VR users stop using it after 6 months. That had nothing to do with using Horizon, but using VR sets in general.

It's a fad kind of product.

On the other hand, you dont get 40% of PC gamers or 40% console gamers only using their hardware for 6 months. They keep going unless the gamer loses interest in gaming in general and quits the hobby (ie. they are getting older and had enough). But for VR, it shouldnt already be at that stage of quitting. But it is. Probably because the games are meh.

 

[poppabk]

Calling depth perception a gimmick is like calling textures a gimmick in my book. The motion controls and stuff can be gimmicky, but having depth perception and a sense of scale is as big a leap as adding textures to polygon surfaces for me.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Calling depth perception a gimmick is like calling textures a gimmick in my book. The motion controls and stuff can be gimmicky, but having depth perception and a sense of scale is as big a leap as adding textures to polygon surfaces for me.

This is what people who haven’t used be don’t understand. It’s not some screen on your face, but a window into another world.

 

[Crayon]

I forget where I saw it but there was a big article about Meta VR and how their new Horizons was failing. Within that article, they said that 40% of VR users stop using it after 6 months. That had nothing to do with using Horizon, but using VR sets in general.

It's a fad kind of product.

On the other hand, you dont get 40% of PC gamers or 40% console gamers only using their hardware for 6 months. They keep going unless the gamer loses interest in gaming in general and quits the hobby (ie. they are getting older and had enough). But for VR, it shouldnt already be at that stage of quitting. But it is. Probably because the games are meh.

It's just lack of software. Quest 2 had several of the pieces in place except the graphical limitations are a compromise, not for all games but obviously precluding stuff that looks anywhere close to what you get on consoles. There's even a case of a game getting downgraded across all platforms to maintain parity with the quest version. So it was doing pretty good but still not enough for the software economy to get off the ground, partially because of the limitation. The overwhelmingly leading platform can't handle alyx-level graphics and that would be a big draw for a spendy gaming device.

PSVR2 has the balls but the price will be too high for the active (emphasis, as you pointed out the thing can get shelved when the user gets tired of waiting for the next game) user base to break into the numbers than can sustain high profile games with graphics that can rival normal games. Maybe sony can bootstrap it by subsidizing tons of content somehow but that seems like a tall order. At least it's off to a strong start.

More likely for now vr continues to chug along as a thing that costs a bunch of money for relatively few great games. A smaller market for now. We'll see the success of psvr2 but the safest bet is a modest success as a good option to play all those indie and aa vr games with at least nice gear. The next things to see are apple thing, quest 3 and deckard. I'm putting my money on deckard being the next big step for the market.

 

[sachos]

I think PSVR2 has the potential to surprise people in terms of quality/value. It has potential to have huge word of mouth marketing.

 

[Keihart]

We'll have to disagree here. While it's true you got depth, and while I admit it makes dogtag fights easier in No Man's Sky, it is very far from a game changer or a gameplay that "can only be experienced in VR".
It's a bit more immersive and a lot more tiring.
Every time I've played with PSVR i was thinking "i could be much more comfortable on the couch right now".

Shooters in VR are a whole another type of game compared to regular FPS, from building the muscle memory to reload without dropping your magazine on a pinch, to shoot accurately while looking on a different director and alining your iron sights and scopes correctly. Mechanically speaking, games on VR can be completly different to regular flat screen games.

 

[Keihart]

We are rapidly closing in on 120 horizontal, which is the limit of binocular vision. Full Fov for both eyes would help with immersion but is probably a lot further off and would require new tech for screens or lenses or a second set of screens and is kind of a waste as you can't really focus on it.

that's why eye tracking and foveated reendering are such important milestone for headsets. IIRC PSVR2 has both features, it will help it punch way above it's weight performance wise.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

It's just lack of software. Quest 2 had several of the pieces in place except the graphical limitations are a compromise, not for all games but obviously precluding stuff that looks anywhere close to what you get on consoles. There's even a case of a game getting downgraded across all platforms to maintain parity with the quest version. So it was doing pretty good but still not enough for the software economy to get off the ground, partially because of the limitation. The overwhelmingly leading platform can't handle alyx-level graphics and that would be a big draw for a spendy gaming device.

PSVR2 has the balls but the price will be too high for the active (emphasis, as you pointed out the thing can get shelved when the user gets tired of waiting for the next game) user base to break into the numbers than can sustain high profile games with graphics that can rival normal games. Maybe sony can bootstrap it by subsidizing tons of content somehow but that seems like a tall order. At least it's off to a strong start.

More likely for now vr continues to chug along as a thing that costs a bunch of money for relatively few great games. A smaller market for now. We'll see the success of psvr2 but the safest bet is a modest success as a good option to play all those indie and aa vr games with at least nice gear. The next things to see are apple thing, quest 3 and deckard. I'm putting my money on deckard being the next big step for the market.

I found the article.

I was wrong. It's not 40%. It's more than half. I musta got mixed up with the $400 quote in the article paragraph below. That's not good. When you 50%+ not using a gadget after 6 months, it's dead. The only thing keeping it alive are big wallets like Meta and Sony, and new adopter hype hoping that there's enough new purchases to overcome the drop out rates. When a new gadget is already dropping after only 3 years, thats lousy. When a new console launches, I'm pretty sure people arent dumping it after 6 months and usage is going down. It should be going up in usage/person as it's still ramping up in games.

Company Documents Show Meta’s Flagship Metaverse Falling Short

Most visitors to Horizon Worlds generally don’t return after their first month, and the user base has steadily declined since the spring, the documents show. “An empty world is a sad world,” said one document.

www.wsj.com

Horizon is accessible through Meta’s Quest virtual-reality headsets, which offer a range of games and activities. Quest retention rates, meaning continued use by owners, have dropped in each of the past three years, the documents show. More than half of Quest headsets—the entry model costs about $400—aren’t in use six months after they are purchased, according to people familiar with the data.

 

[Keihart]

Yeah and you can fight one or two combine at a time and do gimmicky puzzles. WOW THIS IS SEAMLESS.

Also this is after about 5+ years of VR test labs at valve making it the best possible game to sell VR units.

It's not seamless at all is it. It's not how you'd picture VR gaming to be in an ideal state.

It's not even only Alyx, it might not be the most normie shit in the world, but does have features gameplay wise that you dont get on other games.

 

[Kataploom]

I actually pulled up the psvr most popular games recently looking to make the point that there were probably less than 20 games worth porting over to psvr2, and it turned out the number was higher than I expected. I like space pirate trainer and stuff like that but I highly prefer games that feel "full". (eg: tetris effect is just plush tetris in sensory deprivation. somewhat moving, but a novelty. and something like far pointhad mad polish, but is pure baby's first vr simple, paper beast is weird and wonderful but it's a modest production at best, etc)

The catalog is pretty good actually. It is on the smaller side so you do have to get into an experimental mindset to take full advantage of it. If you are willing to try things hoping to find a surprise, there's some robust games in there. Nothing like you would expect a similarly-priced console library to be, though. That is the main thing holding vr back. For that kind of outlay, you want to see a stack of games that make you feel spoiled for choice, at least after several years.

Well, that's what I mean by mobile or Wii type of games, by no mean I'm referring to them disrespectfully, I never cared that Wii had those games as many since they have their audience, but they're not for dedicated players like those on console, most VR games are mostly for casual players and that's ok, those games are cool for every now and then, but the problem is that audience is very fad driven, they don't stay playing for long not use to spend on games frequently, that's why I think it's not the future, it's the present and this is as far as current market propositions can reach.

Having to buy and wear an expensive and big headset doesn't seem cool not isn't nite comfortable than just turning phone screen and opening COD: Mobile for most people

 

[Fermbiz]

Consumers are lazy, don't want to play games while also burning calories, at least that is my opinion. Playing games in VR is 1000x better than with a controller in front of a TV, more immersive, and your body can be used instead of being sedentary. I think the big problem with lack of adoption more so however is not enough AAA games. If tomorrow the industry began to push hardcore native support for VR, with exclusive content, it would be a game changer. The vast majority of games out there are at best amazing tech demos for what is possible.

Funny you say consumers are lazy... I believe thats true indeed, including me. However, since Im such a lazy piece of crap, there are days where I want to play a game, I opt to play VR so that I may be active. I have enough space in my living room to actually move around. Shooting games where I need to duck for cover and peak around, or gladiator style of games where i'm swinging, bobbing and weaving. It all helps out.

 

[Crayon]

Well, that's what I mean by mobile or Wii type of games, by no mean I'm referring to them disrespectfully, I never cared that Wii had those games as many since they have their audience, but they're not for dedicated players like those on console, most VR games are mostly for casual players and that's ok, those games are cool for every now and then, but the problem is that audience is very fad driven, they don't stay playing for long not use to spend on games frequently, that's why I think it's not the future, it's the present and this is as far as current market propositions can reach.

Having to buy and wear an expensive and big headset doesn't seem cool not isn't nite comfortable than just turning phone screen and opening COD: Mobile for most people

Eh if you want it to be as popular as cod mobile then I don't know what to tell you.

The headsets are getting smaller and less expensive, as we all expected and continue to expect because it's inevitable. The index is 3-4 years old and the psvr2 is representing a similar top-end (for the time) setup but for close to half the price. Seeing companies invest big with major technological returns like that doesn't look like a market that is going to shrivel up and die. Price is a big issue and it's coming down, inflation aside.

 

[Secret of Evolution]

You hit the nail on the head.

VR simply requires too much energy and concentration and it's the opposite of a relaxing activity. Depending on your situation, playing in VR is the last thing you usually want to do at the end of a working day.

In my case there's also the thing that i just don't understand it. I have PSVR, played with all major titles (resident evil, no man sky, driveclub vr, ace combat etc.) and i still think it's an overpriced and very inconvenient gimmick at best.

What everyone sees in these bulky things i don't know.

The tech is there in the specs but not in the form factor. Maybe in 15 years or so we'll have a pair of sunglasses you can put on with integrated tiny cameras that turn your hands into the controllers and it'll be awesome hassle-and-bulk-free VR for a few hundred bucks. Until then this stuff will remain niche.

 

[Henry Panic]

AR has to be mixed in with this number and maybe branded gaming PCs as well. Not even Quest 2 could have sold much more than 5 million this year. They sold 8.7M in 2021, the 2022 projections late in the year were 6.7m but they had a bigger decline than expected.

So Iets assume they sold 6M in 2022 for Quest 2 even if it may be less, where did the other 3.6M headset sales come from? What magic is this?

 

[Crayon]

The tech is there in the specs but not in the form factor. Maybe in 15 years or so we'll have a pair of sunglasses you can put on with integrated tiny cameras that turn your hands into the controllers and it'll be awesome hassle-and-bulk-free VR for a few hundred bucks. Until then this stuff will remain niche.

I don't think it has to get that far. Quest 2 was pretty close. If you could get to a psvr style setup but even a bit lighter and smaller, wireless connection to a ps6 for 400 or less and that might be close enough to $200 sunglasses. $200 sunglasses is like saying graphics would need to be photorealistic for for flat games to succeed. It doesn't need to be in it's ultimate form to reach the next step in popularity.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

What do you want IP, it’s a fad, especially as it pertains to gaming. I believe it has useful applications but gaming isn’t one of them.

 

[mxbison]

What do you want IP, it’s a fad, especially as it pertains to gaming. I believe it has useful applications but gaming isn’t one of them.

SuperhotVR and Half-Life Alyx have been the biggest leaps for shooters game design wise in like 20 years. How can gaming not be a useful application of VR?

I get that many people here hate VR for some reason, but some of these arguments are just silly.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

SuperhotVR and Half-Life Alyx have been the biggest leaps for shooters game design wise in like 20 years. How can gaming not be a useful application of VR?

I get that many people here hate VR for some reason, but some of these arguments are just silly.

You mentioned two…… TWO games, you talk “leaps”, how may copies did each sell. I’ll wait.

 

[mxbison]

You mentioned two…… TWO games, you talk “leaps”, how may copies did each sell. I’ll wait.

Yes, leaps in game design. You said VR has no application in gaming so I gave two examples that brought more innovation to a genre than all the Call of Duties, Halos, Far Crys, whatever of the last generations combined.

But now I see we quickly moved on to sales numbers

 

[nemiroff]

What do you want IP, it’s a fad, especially as it pertains to gaming. I believe it has useful applications but gaming isn’t one of them.

(not sure I miss some context to your post but) For videogames per se, perhaps, but you're wrong when it comes to simulator/cockpit games like space, flight and racing, which is a literally perfect match for VR.

With that said. as much as I love Alyx (and VR), for classic "videogames", I agree, it's not a good match in general. VR is stuck in dilemma of locomotion and I don't see a way out of it anytime soon. I hate to say it but VR games are depressingly "the same" right now, and there's not much to looking forward to. I suspect for most people who aren't into cockpit type games most headsets will end up collecting dust after the honeymoon is over.

Anyway, for being at this early stage in VR, 10 mill is a big number. If form factor and locomotion gets "solved" some time in the future it's going to sell many times that.

 

[Kataploom]

Eh if you want it to be as popular as cod mobile then I don't know what to tell you.

The headsets are getting smaller and less expensive, as we all expected and continue to expect because it's inevitable. The index is 3-4 years old and the psvr2 is representing a similar top-end (for the time) setup but for close to half the price. Seeing companies invest big with major technological returns like that doesn't look like a market that is going to shrivel up and die. Price is a big issue and it's coming down, inflation aside.

And then you'll have convenience issue, it's easier to just pick the phone and play whatever, not COD necessarily, and lay lazy af in the bed or couch... And those that prefer a more complete experience have traditional consoles or PC doing the same.

VR had done enough all things considered, I think it's not bad since it's just another option for players, I don't see being the more popular not the default choice for gaming ever.

It's lacking many killer apps for traditional players to begin with, then you'll have the convenience and comfortability issue compared to flat gaming, and on top of that the enormous privacy issue it brings with all the cameras and room scanning it does, specially with Meta involved.

I don't think it reached its pick, but I don't think it can grow on mainstream or even on dedicated gaming audiences much more on its current form.

 

[Crayon]

And then you'll have convenience issue, it's easier to just pick the phone and play whatever, not COD necessarily, and lay lazy af in the bed or couch... And those that prefer a more complete experience have traditional consoles or PC doing the same.

VR had done enough all things considered, I think it's not bad since it's just another option for players, I don't see being the more popular not the default choice for gaming ever.

It's lacking many killer apps for traditional players to begin with, then you'll have the convenience and comfortability issue compared to flat gaming, and on top of that the enormous privacy issue it brings with all the cameras and room scanning it does, specially with Meta involved.

I don't think it reached its pick, but I don't think it can grow on mainstream or even on dedicated gaming audiences much more on its current form.

It will always be less convenient but we don't know yet how much that limits it's reach because the obstacles of price and software economy are a more limiting factor. Lots of things require more effort than picking up a phone or a controller. Almost everything, really. Yeesh, now that I think about it we might have the laziest hobby aside from watching tv.

 

[64bitmodels]

When a new console launches, I'm pretty sure people arent dumping it after 6 months and usage is going down. It should be going up in usage/person as it's still ramping up in games.

well no shit
Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony are well established companies with well established game libraries and the talent and experience needed to make AAA games, plus they have assistance from third parties who routinely make newer games for their console each year

Oculus has 0 experience making games and the one game they're being asked to make is a terrible VRchat ripoff. Valve has long resigned from making games and sticks to hardware primarily & supporting steam

With this kind of fucking backing being the driving forces of the VR industry is it any wonder why people are so excited for PSVR2? One of the 3 companies i listed is taking another crack at VR with the intention of making it more powerful and better than ever and they're clearly ready to support it with high quality system sellers like Call of the Mountain.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Sony gonna struggle next year. Maybe they are making a huge loss on their headset too?

How does it have so much better tech than a quest 2 but make profit.?

Being wired helps with costs.