My partner helped to sell a beautiful house in West Vancouver for about $4 Million. It has already been torn down. She's working on a 1+ million house in richmond which is pure land value as well. Not to make it sound like some sort of pissing match, but yeah, I know all about what's going on.
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NYT: Chinese Cash Floods U.S. Real Estate Market
- Thread starter Dalek
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My partner helped to sell a beautiful house in West Vancouver for about $4 Million. It has already been torn down. She's working on a 1+ million house in richmond which is pure land value as well. Not to make it sound like some sort of pissing match, but yeah, I know all about what's going on.
shira
Member
Right. But it's not the problem of the Chinese investor. It's a problem the government needs to solve.
Build more affordable housing in the CBD. Implement rent controls. Have mixed communities that better reflect the population at large. Raise minumum wages in expensive areas. Things like gated communities, or downtowns that are full of only high priced condos shouldn't be a thing. Build smarter more integrated communities through good planning and policies.
There is a reason non-Chinese parents are paying for their kids to go to these expensive Chinese schools here in San Francisco. I don't know if the same is happening in your area.
but either you adapt, or look in from the other side of the fence.
I'm too old, but hopefully I have kids soon and their first language will be Mandarin...second language my African language...then English.
I'm half joking, but I'm fucked. I haven't bought a house yet...still renting. :/
but either you adapt, or look in from the other side of the fence.
I'm too old, but hopefully I have kids soon and their first language will be Mandarin...second language my African language...then English.
I'm half joking, but I'm fucked. I haven't bought a house yet...still renting. :/
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Then what's wrong with blocking people who aren't native or a citizen from buying property
An affordable housing policy is a limit on purchasing right? They limit the purchase of the home to families that demonstrate they are in a certain income bracket. Can you have mixed communities without limiting purchases?
Liberty4all
Banned
I'm from Toronto and can say that out east it's not just Chinese ... Basically it's wealthy global individuals from all over the world putting money into "safe havens". In Toronto lots of the condos are run by property management companies, owned by overseas investors who rent out the unit back to the local market.
Since moving to Vancouver it's much worse here as the primary foreign investors are actually from China. Some neighborhoods consist of empty houses, essentially a parking spot for foreign cash. Many that do move their families here don't live in the country themselves ... All the benefits for kids (education) and family (free healthcare), without actually working and paying taxes into the local economy. Foreign money inflates the price of real estate so locals can't afford to buy ... The price of a home is divorced from the average wage of a local worker.
It's been a disaster for Vancouver ... Everyone in their 30s is leaving. I arrived in Vancouver in September and one of the first things I noticed ... Nobody around my age (30 - 45). Lots of 20 somethings and baby boomers. The family rearing age people have all moved away to the outer suburbs or out of province completely ... Can't afford to buy a home big enough for kids here even if you are in a high end job (like a nurse for example). Even if BOTH you and your spouse are professionals making combined 140k. Not without taking on crushing debt.
Since moving to Vancouver it's much worse here as the primary foreign investors are actually from China. Some neighborhoods consist of empty houses, essentially a parking spot for foreign cash. Many that do move their families here don't live in the country themselves ... All the benefits for kids (education) and family (free healthcare), without actually working and paying taxes into the local economy. Foreign money inflates the price of real estate so locals can't afford to buy ... The price of a home is divorced from the average wage of a local worker.
It's been a disaster for Vancouver ... Everyone in their 30s is leaving. I arrived in Vancouver in September and one of the first things I noticed ... Nobody around my age (30 - 45). Lots of 20 somethings and baby boomers. The family rearing age people have all moved away to the outer suburbs or out of province completely ... Can't afford to buy a home big enough for kids here even if you are in a high end job (like a nurse for example). Even if BOTH you and your spouse are professionals making combined 140k. Not without taking on crushing debt.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Just make it so
A) You can't buy property to rent out if you aren't a citizen
B) You have to live at least 6 months in said property if you want to buy something and aren't a citizen (this would mean the whole family)
A) You can't buy property to rent out if you aren't a citizen
B) You have to live at least 6 months in said property if you want to buy something and aren't a citizen (this would mean the whole family)
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Not at all. New buildings keep popping up with no one to fill them with. When they do have someone, it's usually a renter.
It's anecdotal, but my friend bought a house in a new complex and they wouldn't turn on the heating/gas in their buildings until the buildings were at 40% capacity. That happened this year 3 weeks ago. He's had the house since July 2014.
AlphaTwo00
Member
People will adapt, I don't think the city will do so fast enough until they suddenly realize they got a whole bunch of city blocks and infrastructure that no one is using.
Darren870
Member
Yep, so fucked here in Australia. I talk to my friends back home in NY and they can't afford anything due to foreign buyers. I'm happy I got a place when I could here in Melbourne. But the prices already have gone up, it's almost impossible for anyone to get anything reasonable somewhat close to the city.
The biggest problem I have is it's not reciprocal. We're so keen to sell off our land, but if I tried to buy in China, I'd be told to get fucked.
The biggest problem I have is it's not reciprocal. We're so keen to sell off our land, but if I tried to buy in China, I'd be told to get fucked.
Liberty4all
Banned
Unfortunately for many "the best of it" is to leave the province.
It's not people "retiring" to the suburbs. It's prime age working people leaving the city and/or province altogether. You've got major problems when working middle class professionals that make the city run (teachers, lawyers, nurses, social workers, police, etc) and rais families can't afford to live in their city.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Nah, you can buy in China, but you have to pay for the property in one go (no mortgage) and you aren't allowed to sell it until at least 5 years later.
AlphaTwo00
Member
They are. This is why this money is showing up in other countries. Their process isn't happening as fast, and this influx in the past few years is fears of China cracking down faster.
Darren870
Member
My mate lived there for 7 years. In the early 2000's, his company had to buy him a place because he wasn't allowed.
Hardly the same, but to be fair their banks will lend to them for overseas property while local banks won't.
They are also better then Thailand and Vietnam, where the locals have to own majority of the property.
AlphaTwo00
Member
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/vancouver-house-buying-frenzy-leaves-half-empty-neighbourhoods/article27056534/
This article scares me. It describes a fake prop city to pretend to have people in it. And as for the utility? This actually relates to rate hike in many places recently, where since there was less usage, the cost actually went up because less people are splitting the repair and infrastructure.
I had a bunch written up but I lost it (thanks Chinese internet)... but cities aren't designed well. Segregation by wealth is a big problem. Unfortunately we can't start over and rebuild using smarter mixed-use and mixed-income design.
Artificial limits on housing (limiting the availabilty of high priced homes) through maintaining affordable housing opportunities is a limit, but it is not targeting a specific person based on where they come from. It doesn't tell anyone that they can't buy an expensive home and leave it empty if they choose, there just would be less communties full of overpriced homes that don't reflect the demographics of the place as a whole.
Implementing better design that ensures a community will reflect the demographics (across income levels, ethnicity, etc.) of the society, instead of policies directed at specific people people because of what color they are or where they were born, is a better, but much more difficult option.
You seem to be commenting on non-first tier cities in your responses. For the first-tier cities that have the strongest real estate markets, foreigners would be restricted from buying if they don't work in the city, and even non-Beijing Chinese residents must work there for five years, and are restricted to buying 1 home (if they have the local hukou, they can buy 2). That's why I don't think there will be a collapse in overseas purchases anytime soon--overseas purchases are an outlet for the restrictions and expensiveness of their home first-tier market.
I live in a Beijing complex where tiny 2 bedroom apartments go for $1 million US, and every real estate place nearby has ads on their windows for buying "cheap" homes in California, Canada, Chicago, and the UK (which usually are a fraction of the price/meter of expensive first-tier homes).
There is also an EB-5 visa ad I see multiple times per day also advertising how the visa will get you 12 years of free American education for your kids with the visa (which is true), which makes it a great deal because the international school nearby charges $35,000 to $40,000 US (the price goes up by grade) tuition per year of 1-12 grade. I think you are vastly underestimating how much of a "deal" it is to buy a property abroad.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
I live in Dalian, so I'd obviously be talking about what effects me directly.
Scott32020
Member
WSJ from Friday: "Chinese Pull Back From U.S. Property Investments"
WonkyPanda
Member
"On average, buyers from China, including the mainland, Taiwan and Hong Kong, pay $831,800 for a home, more than three times as much as Americans spend"
This is an odd metric to use. You'd have to look into the markets where these Chinese dollars are entering to properly associate their spending habits. In the SGV/OC/LA, many starter homes will easily be $500k (but, really, expect to drop about 575). The spending doesn't seem as egregious in light of that.
This is an odd metric to use. You'd have to look into the markets where these Chinese dollars are entering to properly associate their spending habits. In the SGV/OC/LA, many starter homes will easily be $500k (but, really, expect to drop about 575). The spending doesn't seem as egregious in light of that.
Where is the EB-5 ad? TV? At a realtors window? Interested to know which agency is saying that haha...most clients we've had their kids are older, high school aged or so. We usually talk about education starting with high school/college savings... and the detached homes with yards, blue skies, green grass, etc. We gotta start targeting younger parents it seems.
Zoe
Member
Affordable Housing is intended for low-income families who wouldn't typically be buying houses under normal conditions. The middle class is still getting screwed in your scenarios.
AstroNut325
Member
This is a very touchy subject for me since I've lost almost every home I've bid on to an all-cash foreign buyer.
I have nothing positive to say.
I'm in Los Angeles by the way.
I have nothing positive to say.
I'm in Los Angeles by the way.
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
Sydney's housing market has been absolutely destroyed for locals by foreign investment. Want a run down piece of shit 2-3 bedroom house? $1.5 million please.
It is next to the elevator in my building and also outside in the complex's general bulletin board-type ad space.
This part is interesting:
WSJ said:
Chinese buyers are starting to re-think purchases in the markets that they've helped to inflate. In Orange County and San Francisco prices are getting so high, it starting to make less and less sense, even for the foreign investors. That's nuts.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I chuckled
Ah, I see. Wanna PM me the agency name? They are going very local apparently. I've seen some bus ads but never those little paper ads. Usually it's for some ayi or air conditioner repair or something haha, I guess I live in a cheaper complex.
Building homes/communities that reflect the community screws the middle class how? If the majority of the community is middle class and the majority of homes available for rent or purchase are for the middle class doesn't this help them?
These chinese investors are typically buying luxury condos and other high priced homes... if there are other economic incentives (and disincentives) to help encourage equal distribution of homes within a community across the demographic spectrum then this is a good thing. Again a lot of the problem traces its roots way back to early urban design that encouraged both segregation of different groups of people as well as single-use development. If we could start over, which we can't, we could attack the problem with a non-racist/xenophobic solution.
AstroNut325
Member
I sincerely hope this is true. I'm in desperate need for a housing cool down. My options are:
1. Be house broke - no eating out, limit fast food to once or twice a month. No more vacations, events, or functions for my son. No more extra curricular activities. Nothing...
2. Live in a gang/drug infested neighborhood, and deal with commutes in excess of 1 hour.
3. Live in a decent neighborhood and deal with 2+ hour commutes.
Man I really hope prices in SF are starting to top out. I was looking at a decent place in the bay area that was going for 1.2 mil that sold for 600k in 2013.. fucking ridiculous. Things can't keep up at this pace, like a 2 bedroom 2 bath little house can't sell for 2.4 million in 2017, right?
It's not those type of little paper ads that people spam people with--its like a specific ad space. I can take a photo tonight.
AstroNut325
Member
If the foreign money dries up. Maybe... But then again... Are people in the area earning enough to pay about $13,000 USD for the monthly mortgage for $2.4Million house? At that price point I believe most buyers are all cash.
Chinese investors are not limiting themselves to luxury homes. They're buying what use to be middle class family homes at luxury prices, because the market is being inflated. Where I live in Southern California, they're buying typical 3 bedroom houses for $800,000 cash upfront and, from what I've heard, they often offer the exact listing price or more, preventing the typical buyer from negotiating the price, and driving all prices in the neighborhood up.
Ok.. and are they living there? If so what's the big deal? Earlier people were complaining they come and leave the homes empty. I understand how that is a problem for a community.
I've personally helped about 400 Chinese investors and their family immigrate to America in the past 3 years through the EB-5 program. They are primarily moving to SoCal, from my experience. They buy a home, enroll their kids in school, live their lives. Why can't they do that? If you owned a home there already would it bother you that they are raising the value of your home?
They pretty much can''t. They've made a show out of busting up some underground banking rings, but they'll never stop the outflows.
There are so many loopholes to get money out of the country at this point that anyone who wants their money out can make it happen. Even if China somehow shut down every underground transfer service, the loopholes that let you transfer money out of Hong Kong/Macau, and so on, there would still be options like Bitcoin.
This is what needs to happen. Protectionist policy, but given the real impact this is having on America, something needs to be done. Of course, lobbyists would never let this happen, I'm sure.
I mean it's really not a problem until people need to move out and buy more homes right? Current landowners would be glad their land is more valuable, but for their kids or if you're looking to move etc that's where the issues start.
I want to make it clear that I agree with your basic premise that legislation/regulation specifically targeting a specific nation's foreign buyers is inherently xenophobic/racist. But something like 'all non-resident buyers' is a different matter imho
cool little article on moving money around.
China's undergoing some serious rebalancing, things are popping off. Hard for the govt to really crack down when the folks who are going to take it on the chin are connected to the ruling class.
Edit: got a good laugh when I saw Scott's link above. Who's right? LOL Just shows that someone's always looking at it from a different angle.
If they're moving with the intention of living here, why offer inflated prices? I have no doubt that some families seek to live here permanently, but many are buying houses simply so they can use the purchase to transfer money out of China. I've heard that Chinese investors were creating problems for escrow companies here, because they so often transferred sums significantly larger than the purchase prices of the homes, into escrow. How much are your clients spending on their homes, on average?
The inflated offers are pushing an entire generation out of home ownership and forcing the people who work in these cities, to seek homes that require 1-2 hour commutes. This practice is bringing down the qualify of life for the middle and lower classes in the cities the foreign investors are targeting. For the people who live in these cities who don't already own property, it's spelling out a life-time of long commutes or renting.
/thread
Liberty4all
Banned
Even for the one's that do come to live .... The funds for the house is bought with money divorced from the local labour market. Traditionally house prices are dictated by 3 X salary when looking at affordability. With foreign money allowed in there is no "cap" on how high the prices can go effectively screwing local citizens out of home ownership in their own city. Citizens who have lived, worked, had kids, paid taxes and helped build those communities in many cases their entire lives. And let's not forget inflated property prices can often inflate rents ... Forcing life long citizens out of their home city altogether.
Do you not see the wrongness of that? Government should be putting a stop to it, but government makes a bundle on home sales taxes (which are also artificially inflated along with the house price).
I don't know how much they spend on their homes, it's not my interest. I'd say if they are offering inflated prices it's because they don't feel the prices are inflated? Or it's worth it to them to move to a place with good schools and lots of other Chinese people nearby? Proximity to China and LAX. Lots of reasons why people pay more than they should for things I guess.
LA/SoCal is one of the worst designed places on the planet from a human perspective. It is a community designed andbuilt exclusively for cars. Everyone has 1 hour commutes no matter who buys houses there.
Again, I agree the government should implement policies that encourage change. But it's not in their interest and it's extremely difficult to implement smart policies. The policy shouldn't be targeting foreign people though. People are people, no matter where they were born.
If a tax on investment properties was implemented it wouldn't stop the wealthy Chinese from buying these places, by the way. Wealthy Chinese people buying properties around the globe to stash their money are doing it to protect their extreme wealth from the hands of the Chinese government and potential devaluing of their local currency. Key word being "extreme" in the above sentence.
Lolololololol.
If a lot of properties are being used inefficiently, you can always raise property taxes.
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