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Not even Naughty Dog can Remaster their own games

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
The PS5 ones look better in general, your gripes seem to be mostly style based and not quality based.
Stope looking for things to hate and just have fun playing games.
 

CamHostage

Member
The PS5 ones look better in general, your gripes seem to be mostly style based and not quality based.
Stope looking for things to hate and just have fun playing games.

Well, no, let's not just hand-waive away clear differences in how the game performs on different machines...

I get where you're coming from; the messaging could have been different, and maybe it's a double-edged sword that cuts the wrong way when somebody looks too deep because other people might freak out in the wrong way when they've been "informed" of things that aren't perfect. But ultimately, it's good to take a close look at remasterings since the job is very complicated and there are bound to be differences as a game moves from one machine to another.

It is an artform in and of itself to remaster a game (and unfortunately it's an industry that is bad at preparing its products for an afterlife beyond the "launch",) and it can help to be mindful of the complexity of choices and the little strikes in bits which did not transpose. Halo Master Chief Collection had a lot of these "minor" elements not perfectly replicated in its remastering (albeit much of the Halo stuff was more clearly an experience issue than anything seen here,) and that team was able to make adjustments for a more exacting replication. That would not have happened if everybody had been the mindset of ignoring differences and just have fun playing games.
 
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Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
Well, no, let's not just hand-waive away clear differences in how the game performs on different machines. The messaging could have been different, and maybe it's a double-edged sword that cuts the wrong way when somebody looks too deep because other people might freak out in the wrong way when they've been "informed" of things that aren't perfect, but it's good to take a close look at remasterings since the job is very complicated and there are bound to be differences as a game moves from one machine to another.

It is an artform in and of itself to remaster a game (and unfortunately it's an industry that is bad at preparing its products for an afterlife beyond the launch,) and it can help to be mindful of the complexity of choices and the little strikes in bits which did not transpose. Halo Master Chief Collection had a lot of these "minor" elements not perfectly replicated in its remastering (albeit much of the Halo stuff was more clearly an experience issue than anything seen here,) and that team was able to make adjustments for a more exacting replication. That would not have happened if everybody had been the mindset of ignoring differences and just have fun playing games.
You didn't mention any performance issues in your post, everything was visual. If you have issues with performance maybe you should describe those.
 
Absolutely terrible. Thanks for posting this. Also thus shows what a joke DF including John are, god they are lazy idiots.

I was never going to buy the remaster to begin with as it’s a cash grab and lost legacy is pure trash but now it’s even funnier.
 
Well, no, let's not just hand-waive away clear differences in how the game performs on different machines. The messaging could have been different, and maybe it's a double-edged sword that cuts the wrong way when somebody looks too deep because other people might freak out in the wrong way when they've been "informed" of things that aren't perfect, but it's good to take a close look at remasterings since the job is very complicated and there are bound to be differences as a game moves from one machine to another.

It is an artform in and of itself to remaster a game (and unfortunately it's an industry that is bad at preparing its products for an afterlife beyond the launch,) and it can help to be mindful of the complexity of choices and the little strikes in bits which did not transpose. Halo Master Chief Collection had a lot of these "minor" elements not perfectly replicated in its remastering (albeit much of the Halo stuff was more clearly an experience issue than anything seen here,) and that team was able to make adjustments for a more exacting replication. That would not have happened if everybody had been the mindset of ignoring differences and just have fun playing games.
Unrelated but I keep forgetting to tell you that I have played a few hours of edf 4.1 on ps5 and it runs at a flawless 60fps (sans loading hitches when new bug waves drop in) and the gameplay is not sped up at all!
 

CamHostage

Member
You didn't mention any performance issues in your post, everything was visual. If you have issues with performance maybe you should describe those.

Who, me? Naw, I try not to look for things to hate and just have fun playing games...
But it's interesting and potentially valuable to take note of differences in the detail through a deep-dive analysis (and sometimes it pops a lightbulb as to why I'm feeling that some port or remaster is nagging the back of my brain that a little something is off.) If not the actual team going in with patches, sometimes hackers have gone on to do the good work of polishing off those burrs.
 
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Vick

Member
The PS5 ones look better in general, your gripes seem to be mostly style based and not quality based.
How are missing reflections/refractions, missing shaders, missing assets and textures, missing shadows, worse AO, visual glitches and toned down bounce lighting GI, "syle based" gripes?

Absolutely terrible. Thanks for posting this. Also thus shows what a joke DF including John are, god they are lazy idiots.
I don't think we should expect uber obsessive analysis like this from DF and similar though, with the kind of schedules they most certainly have.


Chapter 7:

The most striking difference in this Chapter was the missing light source in the background, during the last cutscene. However that was apparently tied to a particular glitch that prevented them to load, because i can definitely confirm they are present in the Remaster.
Some other minor obmissions or glitches are present though.







There are some little refractions missing behind Sam in the Remaster. Nothing immediately apparent/major, but still.

This last picture also showcases one of the first changes i noticed in the Remaster: they had to completely "re-dress" every single character for every single shot of the entire game, making them sometimes look a bit odd on a skeletal/muscular POV.
I have no idea why this was necessary, and of course i'm not going to complain about differences of this kind as it would be pointless (even if i prefer the original in 80% of the cases in this regard), however this lead to a pretty noticeable glitch on Sully in this scene:




As his shoulder is now clipping with his shirt a few times during the cutscene, and it is quite noticeable.







There is also weird visual glitch on the wall on the left which wasn't there in the OG. I haven't found a single way to justify this, so i'm posting it as a glitch.

Nitpick hour



There are a few instances in this Chapter where i prefer the more visible highlights.

Curtains are differently lit (during closeups) in the Nadine fight scene, but they have the same appearance as OG during normal gameplay. As a matter of fact, curtains are different, sometime very different, for most of the game for some reason.
Whether they are an upgrade or downgrade is debatable though, so i'm not going to post pictures.

Chapter 8:

I always thought this was the worse looking Chapter in the game (not surprising knowing they rushed it), and they definitely made some nice improvements here, like completely changing the way grass is shaded in the first section for instance, which along with the improved LOD really polished up things a bit.
AO, however, is worse for most of this Chapter.











Which, along with the removed/reduced highlights, made the game look flatter as a result.







Also once again GI bouce lighthing is toned down, and once again i'm here hating on this change:







Nitpick hour


Pop-In is still very noticeable in this forced zoom-in, maybe more than in the OG due to the improved LOD. I don't think this is draw distance related as it only happen on a single tree, more of a glitch never addressed.



I spotted this Texture glitch in the Remaster.



This was the worst looking shot in the game in the original, still is in this Remaster. The splashes are literally static images which suddenly disappear, so i wish they improved this considering you're forced to stare at the them during the shot.

Also, i think them making the falling snowflakes appear sooner in the Chapter, like after the first fight, would have drastically improved the look of the game for that boring and lifeless looking section.
 
Vick Vick Nah man it’s their whole job but they missed basic details. And here you are not getting paid but doing a better job.

They’ve been slacking for quite a while because of their success.
 
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Calverz

Gold Member
Tbh what baffled me was the lack of the first 3 games. I thought this would be a collection of all the games in the series with 120fps options.
 
Absolutely terrible. Thanks for posting this. Also thus shows what a joke DF including John are, god they are lazy idiots.

I was never going to buy the remaster to begin with as it’s a cash grab and lost legacy is pure trash but now it’s even funnier.
I like John's passion for games and his videos examining old games are awesome but they never take Sony, MS, or any devs from the biggest releases to task when they've done a poor job. They have this attitude of "yeah there are some minor issues but let's look on the brightside ...". NX gamer is guilty of the same thing, like just recently with Dying Light 2 for Ign.

To its obvious that stuff gets glossed over because they have these relationships they don't want to jeopardize.
 
I like John's passion for games and his videos examining old games are awesome but they never take Sony, MS, or any devs from the biggest releases to task when they've done a poor job. They have this attitude of "yeah there are some minor issues but let's look on the brightside ...". NX gamer is guilty of the same thing, like just recently with Dying Light 2 for Ign.

To its obvious that stuff gets glossed over because they have these relationships they don't want to jeopardize.
I would agree that he definitely puts more effort into the retro stuff and you’re probably right as to the reason why.

They also need to be less opinionated (because frankly I think their opinions are often terrible) and stick more to the facts and pointing out differences.
 
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blastprocessor

The Amiga Brotherhood
I wonder if these 'mishaps' are as a result of converting the game to use the PS5 graphics API and perhaps the shaders needed re-working as well?

If you look at Last Of Us 2 it easily managed 60 fps and it's not even a native PS5 game (so can't imagine these remaster changes being highlighted are a result of performance issues during the port).

Going to be interesting to see how the PC port pans out i.e., if the same changes are noticed per PS5 version then it's definitely NOT performance related.
 
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Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
How are missing reflections/refractions, missing shaders, missing assets and textures, missing shadows, worse AO, visual glitches and toned down bounce lighting GI, "syle based" gripes?
Because graphical art is not judged by technical specification and bullet points. How good the image looks as a a whole is what matters. The PS5 images look better almost every time.
Stop counting pixels.
 

Vick

Member
Due to how long and vast Chapters become after 9, i decided to not waste time posting every single little issue i've found and just focus on the most glaring/unobjectionable changes for the worse, along with most annoying visual glitches.
AO comparisons won't be posted anymore for instance, now matter how noticeable, due to how common they get from here, nor changes made to lighting or shaders even if personally considered worse.

Remaining Chapters:




Same broken lamp as always.



As soon as you enter the Tower and turn left, there is a light coming from the window which wasn't there in the original. This light completely disappers after a couple of steps.



There are pretty noticeable visual glitches happening on this umbrella.







There is a visual glitch behind the brothers during this sequence. It is completely static, and doesn't make any sense.










Same lightning glitch as always, and a much more downgraded boat sequence compared to the Prologue version. In the OG this sequence in Chapter 12, which is supposed to look identical to its Prologue counterpart given it is exactly the same sequence, is in fact identical to the Prologue. In the Remaster they are very noticeably different.







There are noticeable missing textures on the the dead colonist behind the brothers, in both cutscene and gameplay.




During the Nadine "fight" scene, this section of wood is considerably darker in the Remaster. Once Sam breaks one of the panel however, it immediately becomes identical to the OG counterpart. A very jarring effect.

In the Remaster, during the long, final cutscene of this Chapter, shadows and self-shadows are completely missing on trees and bushes.
This is true for left side:










Right side:







And below:







There is a missing shadow from the curtain in the Remaster.

















There are many instances of missing shadows and trees self-shadowing in the Remaster during these Chapters with Elena, or downgraded rendering distance of said shadows, for both gameplay and cutscenes.




This also happens inside, as seen with the missing shadow from the desk in front of them.




Smoke VFX coming from the bullet hole is entirely missing in the Remaster.




Once again toned down GI for the entire Chapter.
 
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Vick

Member
Continues from post above:




Another instance of missing shadows in the background. Note shadows reappear in next shots and gameplay in the Remaster.




PBR shading on Nate shirt is considerably worse in the Remaster during the entire last fight.







Gold shaders are much cheaper looking for the entire last fight.




There are missing reflections for the entirety of this last swimming gameplay section.




Missing self-shadowing/occlusion on the foreground in the Remaster, once again.




Water is entirely missing during this shot in the Remaster.










Reflections/refractions on glass are either simplified or entierely missing in some shots in the Remaster.

And one last feedback input:



This shot always looked out of place and downright like ass, but in the Remaster it's even worse because of the reduced transparency of water alpha effects which are now right in your face. Adding foliage to left rock formation would do wonders in improving this quite long shot.
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Porting games like Uncharted 4 is not an easy task, to say the least. Especially in a relatively short time, and especially if bundled with titles such as The Lost Legacy.

However, i find fascinating how nobody spotted the huge number of little downgrades the games got in the Legacy of Thieves release, in conjunction with its improvements (which are many more Comparisons online were able to find).

So even if most of the game the game looks virtually identical/improved compared to its original Release, every kind of downgrade is featured here; from missing VFX, missing shadows, missing reflections, worse effects at times such as AO and some shaders, simplified and toned down bounce lighting from the dynamic GI (via Software RT), visual glitches and so on.

I spent these last few days comparing the whole game, and was able to grab a total of almost 800 screenshots (half from the OG, half from the Remaster) showcasing these kind of issues.

And since users like @rofif , Shmunter Shmunter or @drotahorror asked me to share these findings, here some examples of missing VFX (PS4 Top, PS5 Bottom, open pictures in new tab to switch back and forth):








What's weird is that the same scene in the Prologue, while still missing a few layers of mist, looks significantly closer to the original compared to what's shown above (end of Chapter 12). Still, even in the Prologue is clear how this Remaster features an issue with lightnings, as they never appear as clear and bright as they did before, and stay on screen for just a fraction of the time. As always, PS4 top, PS5 bottom.




Another example of occasional missing VFX include dust particles from bullet impact, like in this scene for example:




Or absent light sources:



Or a downgraded version of Nadine's hair, which is missing the special layer between skin and hair (along with worse shaders on her silk dress):







Or water bubbles absent from the end of Chapter 2, and many others.

Here some instances of missing reflections:







Or missing shadows:










Or worse Ambient Occlusion:







And a few examples of the toned down GI (which was the most astounding technical aspect of the game):



















Here some examples of the kind of visual glitches (the lamp in the first picture):










And among the almost 800 shots, there are also instances like this:




Which at first glance may appear as an artistic choice, however closer inspection reveals how the background is simply missing multiple layers compared to the original, as if it was sourced from an incomplete build.

Or this:




Which however i think is an artistic choice, as the coast being there in the original contradics the previous shot.

As i said, these are just a tiny fraction of the "issues" i've found. The reason i kept getting screenshots is that i hope to see each and every one of those fixed, because:

1) The number of improvements in this Remaster is incredible.

2) This is the version that will be ported in the future, and as we have seen with countless other titles over the years, once the first port is missing some visual features, they are gone forever.

Ideally, this Thread will be seen by some other fans of this game, leading to some discussion, leading hopefully to someone from ND acknowledging these issues. Wishful thinking, but worth a try.

P.S. I'm more than willing to send the full screenshots folder to whoever is interested.

Full detailed comparisons of Prologue, Chapter 1 and Chapter 3 here, Chapter 2 here, Chapter 4 here, Chapter 5 here, Chapter 6 here, Chapter 7 and 8 here, and highlights from the remaining Chapters here.
GI issues are disappointing but Nadine’s hair went from kick-ass to broken actually. This must be a bug. You should send these to ND on Twitter or other social too.
 

Vick

Member
This must be a bug. You should send these to ND on Twitter or other social too.
Yeah this morning i made my gf make a Twitter account (with our pictures and all) just to link Kurt Margenau this Thread, in a very polite and respectful comment, and also contacted ND support.

Then she told me she spammed something like 50 comments all over his Twitter about the fact he needed to see this. :messenger_hushed:
 
Continues from post above:




Another instance of missing shadows in the background. Note shadows reappear in next shots and gameplay in the Remaster.




PBR shading on Nate shirt is considerably worse in the Remaster during the entire last fight.







Gold shaders are much cheaper looking for the entire last fight.




There are missing reflections for the entirety of this last swimming gameplay section.




Missing self-shadowing/occlusion on the foreground in the Remaster, once again.




Water is entirely missing during this shot in the Remaster.










Reflections/refractions on glass are either simplified or entierely missing in some shots in the Remaster.

And one last feedback input:



This shot always looked out of place and downright like ass, but in the Remaster it's even worse because of the reduced transparency of water alpha effects which are now right in your face. Adding foliage to left rock formation would do wonders in improving this quite long shot.
Wtf?! This is a Remaster but is an overall downgrade. This should be bigger news.
 
You deserve an honorary award for calling out ND/Sony for this.

It's really looking like somehow they had to downgrade the game just to get it running at 60 fps. There are way too many consistent little cuts that are not down to 'artistic choices'.
+!
I've been saying since Sony started making Ps5 "upgrades" and directors cuts that something is wrong with this picture. We should be getting much better upgrades, remasters, and ps5 versions of last gen games than we have been.
 
What's really sad is that this the only chance at having a souped up version of Uncharted 4 and beside you, me, and a very small minority of other people, nobody fucking cares! Since nobody cares and Digital Foundry, NX Gamer, and seemingly all other Youtubers and professional reviewers were asleep when making analysis of this "remaster" they're never going to fix these issues. If they by some miracle do bother to it will never be that good of a version of the game.

We are in unprecedented times in gaming where the very people who bought ps5's and should care about these things are perfectly happy to just take Sony's word on whatever. It says "Remaster" on the box and is 60 fps? "Great, we're happy. What a great company and system we have".
 

Vick

Member
You deserve an honorary award for calling out ND/Sony for this.
I just want to play at 60fps the original version they meticulously made at the time.

If they could restore every little issue here to go along with the many improvements made with this release, and perhaps even improve shadows, perfect, definitive ultimate edition to enjoy for years to come.

If not, at least simply unlock framerate on the OG when played on PS5 and i'd be happy regardless.

It's really looking like somehow they had to downgrade the game just to get it running at 60 fps. There are way too many consistent little cuts that are not down to 'artistic choices'.
More than 60fps, i think the culprit of some of these problems are Native 4K and 120fps.. but i'm not sure especially about the latter as the most performance heavy sections of this game are ironically the most identical/improved.

The toned down GI may be tied to this high framerate mode, however.

Other issue are probably due to ND simply missing some of these things.

We are in unprecedented times in gaming where the very people who bought ps5's and should care about these things are perfectly happy to just take Sony's word on whatever. It says "Remaster" on the box and is 60 fps? "Great, we're happy. What a great company and system we have".
Totally with you on this one. Nothing wrong with expecting excellence, certainly not from a studio like Naughty Dog.
 
Impressive detective work in this thread.

I would understand all these problem if we were talking about the PC version but from PS4 to PS5 it seems like a massive waste to mess with all these things instead of just bumping the framerate and resolution and calling it a day.
 
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